Jesse Tyler Ferguson - ‘I was caught stealing gay porn'

0:00I'm NFL linebacker TJ Watt and this is my personal best. YPB by Abercrombie is the activewear I'm always wearing. That's why I reached out to co-design their latest drop. I worked with designers to create high-performance activewear that holds up to my toughest workouts. Shop YPB by Abercrombie in-store, online, and in the app, because your personal best is greater than anything.

0:37Hello and welcome to How to Fail with me, author and broadcaster Elizabeth Day. This is the podcast where we flip the traditional interview format on its head, celebrating failure rather than success. Every episode, I ask a very special guest to discuss three failures and how they emerged on the other side to be the person we see today. Before we begin, I just wanted to remind you about my subscriber series, where Jesse and I look at your questions and give our advice. I always kind of dread going to Hollywood events where specifically there's other people who I really admire. I always feel like I'm saying the wrong thing.

1:15But the thing is, and I find such comfort in this, almost every single person who is also at that event has the same anxiety. Today, we'll be covering how one listener picked himself up after a self-professed business failure and reached for the stars with amazing results. How another listener discovered she was gay at the age of 33 and should or can anxiety be overcome. And we'd love to hear from you. Follow the link in the podcast notes to share your failures or questions.

1:54Jesse Tyler Ferguson's family had no connection with the performing arts. His dad was a microbiologist for the military, his mother an OBGYN nurse. But as a child growing up in Albuquerque, New Mexico, he was taken to see a production of Alice in Wonderland. And that was that. He joined the Children's Theatre at the age of eight and after high school attended the American Musical and Dramatic Academy in New York. He became an acclaimed Broadway actor, appearing in a variety of plays, including On the Town, A Winter's Tale and Spamalot. Recently, he won a Tony Award for his starring role in the 2022 Broadway revival of Richard Greenberg's Take Me Out.

2:41But the part for which Ferguson arguably remains most famous is that of Mitchell Pritchett, the highly strung lawyer in a long-term gay relationship on the hugely popular TV sitcom Modern Family. It was a role that earned him five consecutive Emmy nominations, a legion of fans, and much critical acclaim. During its first season, Time magazine declared Modern Family to be the second best American television series of all time, just behind Mad Men and ahead of Breaking Bad. His other roles include the movie Cocaine Bear, an appearance in the Taylor Swift music video for You Need to Calm Down, and most importantly, being a father to two young boys with his husband, the lawyer Justin Makita.

3:28He also has a successful podcast, Dinners on Me. Despite appearing to be exceptionally gifted at almost everything he turns his hand to, Ferguson insists he doesn't feel that's the case. It's okay to excel at certain things and not others, he says. That's when I started booking work, because I was being truthful to the talents I had. Jesse Tyler Ferguson, welcome to How to Fail. Thank you. my husband i think is an even bigger modern family fan than i am and is extremely excited that this is happening um but i really liked that quote that that you said about being truthful to the talents you actually have rather than trying to be brilliant at everything how long did it take you to be at peace with that because as a musical theater kid you're kind of encouraged to be good in all areas aren't you i gave it my best effort to be really good at everything you know i tried to be a triple threat.

4:29But I found as I was, you know, actually in the marketplace and I was auditioning for things and I was doing lots of things really poorly, I realized if I could just focus on the things that I do really well, you know, put my energy into that, I imagine I'll get better response. And that was exactly what happened. And so I realized I was enough with myself. Like I'd rather do one thing really, really well than a lot of things sort of mediocre. I mentioned that production of Alice in Wonderland that you went to as a child. What was it about that production that made you fall in love, do you think?

5:05I was a very shy kid growing up and I was bullied a lot as a child. And there was something about being on stage that felt like a safe space that you could be weird and be quirky. And yet you weren't singled out for that in a bad way. It was like you're singled out in a celebratory way. We're going to come on to your childhood in more detail because it forms part of one of your failures. But I want to spool forwards now and talk about your first experiences as a professional actor and specifically one occasion where you turned a part down and people thought you were unhinged for doing it at the time.

5:40And it was spam a lot. Can you tell us that story? Because it taught you something very instructive about gut instinct, didn't it? Yes. It was the original Broadway production that was almost 20 years ago. I had at the same time been workshopping another Broadway musical called the 25th Annual Putnam County Spelling Bee. This musical had very scrappy beginnings. We started workshopping the show in the Berkshires at a cafeteria. Our stage was a cafeteria of a school. We got paid, I think, maybe$100 a week during the workshops. Like we really, I went into debt putting the show together, but it happened to be with one of the composers that I have always wanted to work with, William Fenn.

6:23The very first Broadway show I saw was Falsettos by William Fenn. I remember leaving that theater and thinking, if I ever get to work with this man, then I will have made it. So here I am working on a new show with one of my idols and yet I was being paid nothing to do it. And I was doing it because I believed in it so much and i knew that it had a bigger life and sure enough it ended up coming into new york city and going to an off-broadway theater second stage at the same time they were casting spam a lot which was going to be directed by mike nichols and it was going to star david hyde pierce and hank azaria and tim curry obviously this was going to be a huge hit obviously it was going to go to broadway and they were creating this ensemble of characters and so I threw my name into the ring and I well my agents threw my name into the ring and I auditioned for the show and you know at the time I didn't spelling bee was not a surefire thing that it was coming into New York and so I was keeping my options open and I just kept getting farther and farther in the process and I ended up getting a an offer to do the show from Mike Nichols you know the Mike Nichols and who was making his return to theater after like 30 years of not directing a show on Broadway.

7:37It was all very exciting. And around the same time, it was looking like Spelling Bee was actually going to come into New York. And so I had to make a decision on which show I was going to stick with. And I could not imagine stepping aside and letting another actor take over all of the hard work I had put into creating this character from scratch. And now I had the opportunity to do it in New York and show New York audiences what I'd been working so hard on or do Spamalot. and I chose to do Spelling Bee and everyone thought I was insane. I'm now 40, almost 48 years old. I am 48 years old. I don't think I would have done the same thing now.

8:15I think I would have not been nearly as brave, but at the time I was in my early twenties and I was like, I know what I'm doing. I really feel like this is the right thing to do. And Mike Nichols actually called me on my cell phone to ask me why I was turning down Spamlot because it took them a very long time to put this cast together and they were excited by me which was very um flattering and i explained to him sort of what i just explained to you that this was a show i was going to work on a show that i had been putting my blood sweat and tears into and had gone into debt doing and i needed to see it through you know i think artist to artist you can't really argue with that and so he said okay you know we wish you well and the casting director of spam law was like this was you i think you probably burned a bridge with this man like i don't know if this was a great idea my agents and managers are all very nervous but spelling bee ended up getting great reviews transferring to broadway and we were in we ended up being nominated for tony awards against spam a lot and we were both you know both shows were up for best musical that year i remember after the nominations came out you know a lot of people were curious to see what the competition was and i was doing my performance at spelling bee and i looked down the audience and Mike Nichols was sitting there watching me do Spelling Bee.

9:31And of course I had just an immediate like rock in my stomach. I was just petrified. I went back to my dressing room after the show. And a few moments later, there was a knock on the door and I opened the door and Mark Nichols was standing there with his arms outstretched to me. And he gave me the biggest hug and he said, always trust your instincts. It was so gratifying because this is the man who they told me would, you know blacklist me basically a little bit after that they were doing a production of spam lot at the hollywood bowl and they asked me to play the part that david hyde pierce had played on broadway and i ended up doing it and eric idol was part of that production and a lot of the the original cast members were part of that production and so i got to end up doing it and becoming friends with eric idol who i ran into last night and was he was so lovely with me but it is it was a sign that like these things do come around when they're supposed to.

10:24And I ended up playing a role at Spamlaw, just not in the way that I thought I was going to. But it felt like it was the universe telling me that that was the right thing to do. A hundred percent. And I understand also that your role in Spelling Bee was the thing that brought you your first TV role, which also ended up with you as Mitchell in Modern Family. And if you'll allow me a couple of questions about Modern Family, even though I know your career is so much bigger than that. But it was such an important show. And as well as being important, obviously, it was vastly entertaining, and it was funny, and it was moving, and it was just all of the things that you want.

11:06I wanted to ask you how important it was for you personally, portraying. I think it was one of the first times, if not the first time that a network had put a long-term committed gay couple with a kid like on primetime tv how important was that for you i think you're right at least in the sense of a comedy yeah when you meet cam and mitch in the very first episode of modern family we're coming back from adopting our our child so you're like you're being dropped right into the deep end of this relationship i mean they're not only a long time committed couple but they are now first-time parents and that's where we're starting with them.

11:44So there was so much comedy, not just around, you know, who they were as people, but also something that was incredibly relatable. It's like who they were as first time parents. And I love that that's kind of where we led. The comedy was really about them trying to figure out how to be parents. And then of course the hysterics and the comedy behind that, just them being who they are. When I read the script of Modern Family, I knew immediately that this would be an opportunity for visibility for the gay community. You know, at that time in the States, we were, I think there was maybe six States where you could be married as a same sex couple.

12:24And we were also in the throes of Proposition 8 had just happened in California, which took rights away from same sex couples. So rights have been revoked in my own home state that I was living in at that time. And so it was a very hot button topic. And the most surefire way to reach people is through pop culture and through their TVs right now. Like we will be in so many people's living rooms across America. And it's such a great opportunity to let people get to know a gay couple and fall in love with them. And sure enough, that that is what happened. And I do know that because I ended up going with my husband to talk with, with congressmen and senators and DC.

13:05And we talked to many people about trying to obtain marriage equality. And we were, you know, Barack Obama, who was the president at the time, we actually got to talk to him about it. And like, you know, things were happening, things were moving, but almost all of them referenced modern family as being a really important part of that movement. So again, my instincts were correct that this was going to be something that was a pop culture touchstone for many people. And And, you know, for me, the challenging thing was how to do the job and not buckle under that pressure. You know, Eric and I both felt extreme pressure at different times.

13:46And we had to relieve ourselves of that and remind ourselves, you know, first and foremost, we're here to make people laugh. And that's our objective. And if they take something else away with that, then that's great. I had a little bit of an extra pressure on me just because not only was I part of this Gay couple on television, but in real life, I was the one who was living as a gay man so I felt like there was a lot of Expectations from the community put on my shoulders and I had to relieve myself of that and say, you know My job is to make this one person Really relatable and really truthful.

14:20I can't be in charge of the entire community once I sort of took that pressure off of myself to be the voice for an entire community, I think I was able to sort of breathe into that character in a different way. Eric, who you mentioned there, who played Cam, is straight. And I wonder what you think now, because times really have shifted and evolved, about straight actors playing gay. I mean, Eric's not the only one. There's your Matt Damon, there's your Jake Gyllenhaal. What do you think about that now? I think that's always been a conversation that's been had. I think the social media, it's more amplified now and it catches a little more quickly.

15:02People who are upset with that casting have a bit more of a voice and that's heard a little bit more widely. You know, I've talked with Eric about this. If Modern Family was being cast today, he probably wouldn't be as heavily considered as he was almost 15 years ago when they were first cast in the show. I was cast before Eric was. I read with several different actors to play Cam, and many of them were gay, some of them were straight, people of different colors and different ethnicities. And there was no denying that Eric and I had chemistry and there was already an undercurrent of love there.

15:37And when I think about the way the universe rewards you and tells you you're doing the right thing, I think back to my first meeting with Eric outside of our audition. when he got the role, we decided to meet and get to know one another. We're going to be playing spouses. We met for coffee at a coffee shop near me in Silver Lake. And there was all these people around us with boxes of chocolates and roses. And we realized it was Valentine's Day. We were both single and neither one of us had any reason to celebrate Valentine's Day. And yet here we were meeting for the first time on Valentine's Day.

16:11And I felt like that was the universe really saying, yes. Yes, you two are meant to be together. It's meant to be you. So, you know, when people are asking me now, like, what do you think about straight actors playing gay? I think, you know, there needs to be a better job of looking for places for that opportunity to be given. I think people need to be able to, they need to be able to get into the door in an easier way. I don't think, I think there's still a struggle for gay and trans actors to get inside the room to even show what they can do. I think sometimes these decisions are made hastily and I think roles are being given to straight actors who they think are better for the box office and they're going to be a more surefire thing.

16:50I think that the roles are handed out a little bit more casually and I think the opportunity is not always there. And I do feel for me saying I only want gay actors playing gay roles, it's a complete contradiction to what I want in my life. I don't want to just be seen as gay characters. I would love to play straight roles. And I can't say only straight actors should play straight roles and the gay actors play gay girls, because that's not what I believe. I'm an actor. I can play different parts. And I still truly believe that. But I do think that the industry could do a better job of finding opportunity for these people to be considered.

17:26Final question before we get onto your failures. Modern family, the clue is in the title, you did become a family of sorts. And I really love your podcast and is on me. And I particularly love it when you interview your former co-stars from Modern Family because there is such a special dynamic and Modern Family came to an end just before the pandemic hit and I just wonder what that experience of isolation was like having spent so much time with these beloved people every single day and and whether you're still in touch with them now do you have a family whatsapp group we do do we do yeah what's it called not whatsapp but it's it's okay i think it's just called well we have modern family adults like it's just six adults okay and then there's a whole group one as well and sometimes sarah highland she like she's and you know she is an adult but she's technically one of the kids on the show she's sneaked her way into some of the adult conversations um but that last season of modern family season 11 was sort of a bonus season for us.

18:28We were prepared to finish it season 10 and then the opportunity was given to us to continue. So we all wanted to do one more season and really truly make it our last, but then enjoy that last season knowing that it was going to be our last.

18:47At Sierra, discover great deals on top brand workout gear, like high quality walking shoes, which might lead to another discovery. 40 ,000 steps, baby. Who's on top now, Karen? You've taken the office step challenge a step too far. Don't worry, though. Sierra also has yoga gear. It might be a good place to find your zen. Discover top brands at unexpectedly low prices. Sierra, let's get moving. Raise the rudders. Raise the sails. Raise the sails. Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching. Over. Roger. Wait, is that an enterprise sails solution? Reach sails professionals, not professional sailors.

19:26With LinkedIn ads, you can target the right people by industry, job title and more. Start converting your B2B audience today. Spend$250 on your first campaign and get a free$250 credit for the next one. Get started today at linkedin.com slash campaign. Terms and conditions apply.

19:48Let's get on to your first failure, which is that as a kid, you had a failure conspicuous failure to learn how to play soccer and you say and really any sport when it seemed to be all my dad wanted from me yeah so you tried did you try to be sporty i did i think you know for my parents as they were in hindsight i i i know that they knew that they had a gay kid on their hands and they were trying to figure out how to you know navigate that I grew up in Albuquerque, New Mexico. At that time, it was a very red state. Sports was everything. There was not really a great art scene there beyond whatever community theater that I ended up joining.

20:34and for my dad I was a first born of three kids and for my dad I think you know I was the son he was excited to have and he wanted him to play sports and do the things that he did as a kid and I just did not have any desire my heart was not in it and I remember specifically with soccer there might have been a point when someone tried to explain the rules to me but I was not absorbing anything. And I just remember being so confused by what we were doing. And I would go to these, I almost called them rehearsals, these practices. I mean, that's the first thing. Right? They were probably flagged that it wasn't for you.

21:13Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not for me. But I would go to these practices in the park and, you know, they put out the cones and we would do games. And I remember my dad yelling from the sidelines and, you know, I was always running the wrong way. And there probably was like disappointment from him to like, oh gosh, you know, he's not doing what I thought he was going to be able to do. But it all came to a head with my first official game. I was running out to the field with my, I was going to say cast team. In your costume? Yeah, in my costume. And I tripped over a sprinkler and the entire team ran over me.

21:52And I remember just being embarrassed and devastated. And I talk about the universe a lot, but I feel like it was the universe saying, I gotcha. Let's get you out of the situation. And I didn't have to play the game that day. I remember I sat on the sidelines with my dad and just watched the game. and now as a father myself you know my son I take him to soccer practice and I sit on the sidelines and I watch him try and figure out this game and he's in this place where he's like he's actually way more into it than I ever was but he's in this place where he's disappointed that people aren't sharing the ball and I have to explain to him well that's part of the game is for people to get the ball away from you and you have to try and get it back and you know we're also the place where it's like we're talking about sharing and you know and it's confusing for him like well you told me to share and now you're telling me that it's okay to take this up all away so we're in this like really confusing place with it and i'm i have my own set of frustrations watching him trying to figure out the game so i have a bit of compassion for my dad in hindsight watching my son try and figure out this game but i think ultimately he's gonna either respond to it and i'm he's gonna be great at it or he's not and i'm gonna find something else for him to do like i i i recognize myself in my son but i also see him already like being better at this thing than i was um how old your sons?

23:09Almost four and two. Okay. So when you trip over the sprinkler and your entire team runs over you to get to the pitch, how aware are you at that stage that this is disappointing your father in some way? How much do you internalize that? I mean, it's always the way you remember it is probably not as accurate as the way it actually happened. I mean, I was so young. The way I remember it is that, you know, I was sort of picked up and I remember being, I remember I was crying and I feel like maybe I even had a bit of a bloody lip. And I remember my dad taking care of me and saying, you know, you can sit this one out.

23:49We'll just watch the game. But I feel like I remember sitting with him knowing like, oh, this is not how he envisioned this day going at all. And like just being disappointed in myself and also maybe taking on a bit of his disappointment as we were watching these other kids do this thing that I think he was hoping I'd be able to do. I heard you tell the story of how your sexual identity manifested itself with your parents on another podcast. In fact, it was Judy Bowen's podcast, Quitters, which is such a great theme for a podcast. I was like, damn it, someone else took that idea. and you you told this story in a way that was um very compassionate and and funny in parts but also very painful and i'm also aware talking about this as a straight woman myself there's a whole language around quote unquote coming out that is not applied to straight people a straight person never is expected to come out as straight and so i want to preface this discussion by saying the language is inelegant.

24:56But would you mind exploring that with me? And what happened with you telling your parents, or rather them being told on your behalf that you were gay? The reality of the situation was I was caught stealing gay porn when I was very young. And I had been, I had stolen, you know, a few magazines before in the past. And so I had a stash of, you know, this material at home. And, um, and I finally got caught stealing it. And I was brought into the back room of the store and they called the cops and they called my parents and they showed them my parents, the nature of the material. I remember, I remember that so specifically that, that phrase, the nature of the material I was stealing from there, there was a lot of just like awkward silence.

25:46Like we didn't talk about it, even though it was like this thing that was just lying out there that we, you know, it was front and center. It was in the open and yet like no one knew how to talk about it. I certainly didn't have the tools to talk about it. I was just, you know, a kid. My parents really didn't have the tools to talk about it. I remember going to a therapist and I think my parents were like, well, we'll have a therapist deal with this. And I just remember it sort of being a bit futile. Like it's sort of like, I think they were looking for someone to sort of give them some answers on how to deal with this or say, okay, we fixed it.

26:20You know, there wasn't like, I don't think there was ever, I don't think there was an open heart for them to like at that moment say, okay, we'll just learn how to love this new version of our son that I think was always a suspicion of theirs, but never confirmed. So that was like kind of the first coming out for me, I feel. And how old were you then? 14, 15, you know, young. I was very young. And you ended up in front of a judge for stealing those magazines. Yes. Yes. I had to go to court. I remember my mom with me at the courthouse and the crime was committed on like, you know, months before.

27:01And then like later they had to, you know, I was put in the system and I had to like wait for my hearing date. And so I think in that time there was a bit of healing that happened. My mom sort of just forgot about it or was less angry about it. you know, probably came to grips with it a bit and just, you know, obviously meditated on it herself. And she was easier on me. She, I felt like there was a little bit of understanding and passion that she was giving to me. And then when we were at the courthouse that day, months later, she ran into one of her patients at the courthouse. And it was like all that day one trauma was right back on the surface.

27:37And she was just really upset again. And how embarrassing it was for the family and how embarrassed that she was that she had to see something that she knew with her son at the courthouse. And I was given community service for probably like three to six months or something. I chose to be a teacher's aid at a preschool, which was so much fun. I love kids and I ended up, you know, being a nanny later in my life. So I think it was my first time I sort of realized that I was actually really great with kids and it was actually a really wonderful time, but it was community service. I wasn't getting paid anything.

28:10And there was a piece of me that sort of feels like an example was made of me in a way. And I think if that happened now, I think it would have been handled differently. At least I hope it would have been. Yeah. I mean, I just feel so sad for you, even though you ended up discovering that you were so great with kids, which I can completely imagine. But the amount of misplaced shame that must have been heaped upon you, that was not yours to own, must have been so difficult for you to unpack at 14. It was a really painful time for me. I felt very alone. I was never suicidal or anything, but I was definitely depressed.