Jessel Taank - ‘Real Housewives? It’s like Game of Thrones’

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0:55Welcome to How to Fail, the podcast that truly believes all failure is data acquisition. Before we get on to our guests, I wanted to remind you of my subscriber podcast, Failing with Friends, where my guest and I answer your questions and try to give some advice on your failures too. This week, I chat to the real housewife of New York, Jessel Tank. Do join in by following the link in the podcast show notes or look out for my monthly call outs on Instagram. Thank you so much for listening. As a child growing up in a close-knit Indian family in London, Jessel Tank was convinced Michael Jackson was her real father and that her own parents had kidnapped her from him.

1:34Although, spoiler alert, this wasn't true, Tank's belief that it might have been displays an early fascination with popular culture. After university in England, she became a fashion publicist and brand consultant, eventually setting up her own PR firm. Fast forward to the present day and Tank has found her own fame, not through singing or dancing, but through her casting on the reboot of The Real Housewives of New York, one of the greatest reality TV shows of all time, in my opinion anyway. Tank was the first South Asian housewife and the breakout star of her debut season in 2023. She became instantly iconic for her dry humour, her fashion, her sandwich obsessed husband Pavit and for describing Tribeca as up and coming.

2:23But her storylines went deeper too. Tank spoke openly about the challenges of conceiving her twin sons through IVF and the misplaced shame she felt at not being able to have children naturally. As Brits, Tank has said, We don't talk about anything, and as Asians, we don't either. I'm definitely not someone that thrives in drama or uncomfortable situations. My go-to is just to ignore it or disappear. Jessel Tank, welcome to How to Fail. What an introduction. And I love that Michael Jackson made it in. We started with Michael Jackson. As you always should. Always. I mean. And we ended with conflict avoidance, which is so fascinating given what you now do.

3:06Yeah. Isn't it though? How does that work? So someone who, by your own admission, you like to sort of disappear from conflict. How has reality TV been for you? Oh, God, it's been the hardest thing I've ever had to do. I think that, you know, for I mean, and you're British, so I so I know you relate to this. We avoid conflict at any cost. As an Indian, British also, like that's an added layer of conflict that we don't really want to tap into. It's been like, you know, you're forced to face it. You're sort of thrown into the dragon's den, so to speak. I call it the Game of Thrones. There was no escape and you just had to figure it out.

3:48We're meeting a couple of days after the part two of the reunion has aired. How are you feeling? Because for anyone who watched that season, it was a season that ended on a dark and troubling note. and I feel I just want to pay tribute to how you navigated that and what a good friend you were to Uber but how are you feeling about it all now are you still talking to everyone um yes I mean I'm still talking to everyone but obviously there is this very clear tension that rocked the group you know Real Housewives is supposed to be like funny it's like drunk women falling backwards in bushes like you know as a bravo historian almost like it's not supposed to take the turn that it did I think at the beginning of the season, you know, we're talking about pigeons and it's like it did feel very much like on par for what Real Housewives should be.

4:40And then it did, you know, turn a corner and I felt very disappointed, to be honest. And I still feel like a little bit in limbo because it's such a weird note to end on. Yes. Although we did seem to find resolution at the reunion, I know that there are things that have happened that people will not be able to forget necessarily. And for anyone who doesn't watch Real Housewives of New York, first of all, what are you doing with your time? Secondly, just to bring you up to date, the season ended with one of your cast members, Bryn Whitfield, revealing that she'd been sexually assaulted and raped by someone, which was so awful.

5:22And every single one of the women stood up in support of her. And there was a conflagration because Bryn believed that she had said to Uber that that had happened to her. And Uber said that she hadn't. And so it was about everything that happened after that but I thought you did a very good job of separating the two things because we believe women when they tell us 100 % and at the same time there are ways of being open and honest in friendship that we didn't necessarily see no definitely and you know I feel terrible for Bren because she obviously went through so much and to have that be overshadowed by what it was um you know I can imagine for her it was very devastating um it must have taken a lot of courage for her to open up and, you know, be sort of vulnerable in that moment.

6:05And I just wish that it had played out differently. And you obviously are originally British. So I'd love to talk to you a bit about your upbringing. So you were raised in London. I was raised in London, just outside of London, a little town called Pinner in Middlesex. And, you know, my parents, I think I've spoken a little bit about this, but my parents came to England as sort of a, it was a bit of a tumultuous time for them. They were sort of forced to move to England and to start their lives. And so the household that we, or that I grew up in, it was sort of filled with, you know, this almost like struggle to kind of, you know, make it in a way.

6:46They had to start from scratch. And so my upbringing was very happy one. I had a lot of close family, a lot of close cousins, a lot of close friends, But it was almost overshadowed by this kind of very sad, I would say, background. And can I ask why they were forced to move? Yeah. So they grew up in Kenya, in Africa. And due to political uprise, a lot of Indians were told to, you know. They were displaced? Yes, displaced. It was something where, because they were, you know, taking over businesses. And I think that maybe the African government felt threatened. And so a lot of the Indian community had to leave.

7:30And because they were part of the British Commonwealth, they ended up in England. So that's so interesting how you've described it so well there, that sense that it was a very happy upbringing, but there was this underlying sadness because your family presumably had to leave behind everything they knew and start again. So were you aware from a young age that you had to work hard and strive to succeed because of that? Yeah, a little bit. When you see your parents having to work so hard. My grandparents lived in a council home. You sort of like are exposed to, I wouldn't say we're working class, but middle class, but like, you know, very hardworking ethic.

8:09My parents pushed education. They really wanted me to like succeed just because all of those pillars would then, you know, help me strive to become what I am or what I wanted to be. So they gave me the opportunities that I definitely have today. I'm so thankful for that. But I think a lot of the Indian community, I mean, we joke about it. It's very much a stereotype why we work so hard. I think it does come from our background and our parents and what they had to do. Now, I'm familiar with your wonderful mother on screen. She's made quite a few appearances on The Real Housewives of New York. How does she feel about this turn that your career has taken?

8:49You know, I think at first they didn't really get it. They were obviously excited that I was given the opportunity. And it's such a rare, I mean, I think so many women would just, you know, kill to be in my shoes. So the fact that I was in that position was, first of all, I was so lucky. And they saw that. But I think they are nervous for me. You know, it's something that you can't control the narrative. You can't control sort of how you're perceived. And I think that made them very nervous because as Indians, we are very timid in a way and we don't really expose a lot of who we are. We're very private as a culture.

9:33So your first failure is that as a young girl, you fail to overcome Indian beauty ideals and you let the pressures of not living up to them almost undo you. So describe to me how you felt as a young girl. Did you feel pretty? um no so I think you know being Indian I think that a lot of Asian cultures sort of had this ideal to be fair there was a very specific stereotype of what beauty is in India and in Asia and that is you know petite fair-skinned you know almost like porcelain like and I think growing up I definitely did not fit that mold and I felt it from a very young age and it really did inform a lot of who I am and who I still am because I think when you don't fit a mold in your culture you don't fit a certain stereotype you feel sort of displaced and I know that sounds really like a heavy term but I really did like I was obviously darker growing up you see my mom she's like she doesn't look Indian at all.

10:44She almost looks Italian or something else. So I almost felt like I was being compared in a way like, oh, that can't be her daughter. She doesn't look like her. And I heard that from a very young age. And it was very tough, I think. I think my self-confidence took a dive. I was always questioning, you know, this idea of beauty or what it means to be beautiful. And in a way, it was almost why I wanted to be in the fashion industry. Yes, that makes total sense. And also, now that you're talking about it, the Michael Jackson thing makes sense as well. That actually breaks my heart. Oh my God, I didn't even connect the two.

11:19Because that's someone who also struggled with his own skin, it feels like. It's really funny you mention that. Yeah, I mean, he did grow up dark. I mean, I don't know what happened to poor Michael. I mean, he claims a bit of LIGO, but like, yeah, maybe I did connect with him because of that. But you did grow up in a time when racism, particularly in London, was still really prevalent. Yeah. How did that play out for you? Yeah, racism was rampant. To be honest, I didn't really feel the weight of racism. My mum, on the other hand, and her family did. Like I said, they grew up in a council estate.

11:54So, you know, I grew up with stories of my uncles telling me that they were there to hide in their home. They were, I think I heard one story where there was like bottles of like gasoline being thrown into their home. Like they would light it and throw it into the letterbox. You know, they had a very, very tough upbringing. I almost internalized what my mom went through because you see like she grew up in a very tough way. And so it was very, very sad for me to be a part of that. You know, I think it informed who she is as well and certainly informed her family like upbringing and what they had to do.

12:34My dad, on the other hand, had a little bit of a different upbringing. You know, I'm sure he did experience racism, probably not in such a violent way. But he got to travel and his family grew up with a little bit more means. And so I think that, you know, he actually was able to have an education and actually sort of went through the motions of having friends and being able to experience his childhood a little bit better. I'm very intrigued by the idea of inherited trauma and that you carry some of your mothers and even your uncle's sadness within you. Oh, yeah. So what was school like for you?

13:10School was not bad. It was, you know, I didn't feel segregated in school. I think, to be honest, I grew up in a area of London that was quite diverse. There was a lot of Indians. There was a lot of Asians. My best friend was Korean. And she was, you know, my very best friend. We did everything together. um so I grew up in a very diverse community which I'm so grateful for um because it really like put a lot of perspective a lot of international perspective to how I treat people and how people you know hopefully treat me as well so with these childhood memories of not fitting in quote unquote to the kind of Indian ideal how has it been going on television and being confronted with your appearance?

14:00Like how do you feel about how you look now? I've worked really hard to come to terms with the angst of it all. Like I said, as a child, I had so much lack of self-confidence. I was very shy. I wouldn't really talk to people. I couldn't really look people in the eye. It's such a far departure from who I am now. But I really worked very hard to kind of come to terms with being darker is beautiful. And I think there is a lot of, you know, social, I think, chatter about that, which helped, I think, you know, one of my icons growing up was Naomi Campbell. And I think that she was someone that came on to the scene as this gorgeous supermodel that was, you know, not a light-skinned model and that embraced it so much.

14:47And targeting people like that for me was really helpful because I'm like, oh, you can look like that and can be perceived as beautiful. and I think that there's been a lot of work done in the Indian culture itself where you know we're not there yet but there have been strides that have been taken to embrace women that are darker and that you know it's almost cool now which Jesus Christ it took a while but I feel almost accepted in a way how that translates to the show you know I really like talking about the fact that I didn't fit in, then that I almost feel unique because I think standing out is almost cooler than blending in.

15:27Well, objectively speaking and sitting opposite you, I can confirm that you are so beautiful and you deserve to know that. But one of the things that I, as much as I love Housewives, I have a slight issue with is at the reunion when you are constantly asked what work you've had or not had done. And I felt like you were slightly singled out this last reunion about for that. And I just, how do you feel about that? Because I don't know, I feel uncomfortable. The fact that Andy asked me, I wasn't offended because I know he issued a statement about this. He does ask, I'm sure at every reunion, have you guys prepared?

16:02He loves the boob job. Loves the boob job, loves the nose job, loves a bit of, you know, filler and Botox. For me, he's been so complimentary of, you know, me and how I dress and how I look. And so I didn't take offense to it. I think where it went south was when Brynn chimed in and was like, well, I know what she's done to her face. And I think I was confused because I thought she was alluding to the fact that maybe I did more, like I had a nose job or, you know, a facelift, which none of that is true. So there was a little bit of confusion on my part. And then she went to say that she introduced me to someone who, you know, does injectables and that I ran out on a bill, which also didn't happen.

16:42So I think the whole thing took a bit of a dive and then it got really awkward. And then I think it was like, okay, well, what did you do? Like, and that was kind of the stress of it all. Right. But you know, I stand by the fact that I've only done Botox and filler. My mom would kill me if I did anything more. Yeah. She literally would. She spanked me.

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18:07When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom's 60th, and never miss a meme or milestone, all protected with end-to-end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp. Message privately with everyone. Learn more at whatsapp.com. Okay, let's get on to your second failure, which is your failure to balance motherhood with personal ambition. I'm so, so happy that you're going to talk about this, Jastel. I really am. And when I knew you were coming on the podcast and I asked you for your failures, I was hoping that you'd bring something around motherhood up because you won't remember this, but I watched you the first season of Real Housewives, we didn't know each other, but you spoke openly, so profoundly and movingly about IVF.

19:01And I have also been through that unsuccessfully, but I felt so seen in what you were saying and you expressed yourself with such eloquence and sensitivity for those of us who understand it. And I DM'd you because I'm so grateful and you got back to me. So it was very nice of you, but that's why I'm really happy that we get a chance to talk about it in more depth. So tell me why you chose this, Fabia. It's a big part of, I think, who I am today. I still struggle with it. Growing up, when people would ask me, and I'm sure a lot of women get asked this question, how many kids do you want? And it's such a simple question.

19:37And I would always laugh and say, oh, I don't want kids. I would love a dog. I think as women, you are expected to bear children. And that is the role, right? Like it's as soon as you get married, it's like, what are you having kids? Or, you know, it's just something that is almost like forced upon us. The truth is I was never maternal or I never felt maternal. I was always very ambitious. And I always, when I think about my successes, it was always surrounding my career. so when I did get married I always felt like the next step in the process was to have kids and you know we did delay it as much as we could I wanted to travel and and really experience you know the world as much as I could um but there came a time where I knew my husband would really wanted kids.

20:34And so when we started trying and it wasn't happening, I was really, you know, I was like, wow, like maybe this isn't meant to be. But then it took a whole other turn for me because motherhood became really, really hard or trying to be, you know, a mother became really stressful. And it just kind of took a dive from there, I think. I almost became really frustrated I became almost a shell of myself because I was then putting all this energy into trying to have kids and I put almost my career on the back burner and I think I was mentally checking out because I was like okay here we are we're like in the thick of it it took me three years to have kids and I was like those three years I could have really focused on other things you know yeah Yeah.

21:28I think when you go through IVF, I mean, I was very ignorant and naive when I first started doing IVF. And I did not realize that it's essentially like taking on a whole other job. And if you already have a job, and not only if you have a job, but if you are someone as you are, who is used to applying yourself and getting the results, it's very difficult then to be pitched into this world of uncertainty and ambiguity where you are doing all of the work. And sometimes the results just aren't fair. They're not happening for you. Did you feel like you were failing? Yes. So did I. 100%. It's actually a large part of the reason why I launched this podcast.

22:05Yeah. And I think, and I don't know if you relate to this, but part of the reason I felt I was failing was the social conditioning that you're talking about, the idea that it's our biological imperative as women. But also I felt failed by my own body. And I felt that the medical language around fertility for women is often the language of failure. The phrases that often male clinicians use are the phrases of failure. So you have an incompetent cervix or an inhospitable womb, or you're failing to respond to medication. And that just really worms its way inside your psyche. And I don't know if you had that experience too.

22:44Yeah, very much. I think, you know, it is very much a social taboo to like, or a cultural taboo even to like not be able to have kids at the blink of an eye. You know, and it took the fun, it sucked the fun out of it for me. Like then at that point, being a mother wasn't going to be fun because I already went through so much. And, you know, again, like you are put in this like little bucket of like, oh, well, you know, here you go. It's something that you're going to have to deal with. It's going to be such a struggle for you to get pregnant. And it's a big reason why I wasn't so open and honest about what I was going through.

23:29Because I didn't want people to look at me in that way as a failure and gossip and talk about how I wasn't able to like have kids. Because you didn't tell your family. It was really just you and Pavik going through it, just the two of you. Yeah, and a few friends who I chose to tell. And can you take us back to what impact that had on your relationship at the time that you were going through it and you weren't sure whether you could get pregnant? Yeah, I think I blamed him a lot. It wasn't his fault. But because he was the only person that was, you know, in this with me, I took a lot of frustration out on him.

24:06um and i think that he handled it like a pro like he handles most things but he was really my punching bag through the through the entire process financially it took a toll on us i mean what were we like 100 grand maybe 150 grand in at this point and with no like feasible light at the end of the tunnel like that's a down payment on a house you know it was it took a it was a very very tough time for us in our relationship um I just remember one night I got the results of my third egg retrieval and it was the same you know song and dance like nothing was viable and I just remember like thinking am I even supposed to be where I am right now like is this a sign where I should be doing something completely different like should I even be married should I just like end this right now and just be you know a successful entrepreneur and do it on my own like those were the thoughts that were going through my head because you just don't like if something's not working and it's hard and you're like toughing it roughing it out you're like is this a sign that this is not my destiny yes I totally relate to that yeah and do you mind me asking how many rounds you had to do yeah I did five in the end you're so strong How many did you do?

25:27I did two. So I did, this is a whole other podcast, but I was married before and I did two rounds in that marriage. And those two rounds were unsuccessful, but also highlighted that I wanted it more than he did. And then I got pregnant naturally and had a miscarriage at three months. And that was devastating. And ultimately the end of our marriage for various other reasons, it was kind of the catalyst. yeah and then I was 36 being like oh well now what do I do do I concentrate on trying to find a fulfilling relationship or do I try and get pregnant and so I froze my eggs very disappointing results all of that failed to respond to the drugs um and then I met my now husband on a dating app and we got pregnant naturally just after my 41st birthday had another miscarriage but then that showed us how much we wanted it.

26:19And so then I did various procedures and we ended up having another miscarriage. And then I did egg donation and then that didn't work either. Oh my God. So it was a lot, it was attritional and it was over a 12 year process. Oh my goodness. And I can talk about it now without crying because I am truly at peace with the fact that I won't have a biological child in this lifetime. And it got to the stage for me where I did feel like, why am I pushing against this unforgiving obstacle so much when actually I'm so grateful for the relationship I have and I'm surrounded by children in other ways and I'm lucky that I have a fulfilling career and so for me I decided to let it go right and that was two years ago and that takes immense amount of strength I mean I kudos to you because I think that to come to terms with something like that is so gut-wrenching.

27:15Yeah. I mean, it was hard. Yeah. I had an amazing psychic reading that really held. I'll tell you about that later. Psychics, they know what to do, what to say at the right time. The good ones are great. The good ones are great. Wow. So you did five rounds. Yeah. And then you got pregnant on your fifth or on the sixth? So I did five rounds and then I did a, I'd never had a transfer before because we didn't have the viable embryos. So round five, I think I I had the viable embryos at that point. I did a transfer and I begged my doctor to put two in because it wasn't because I wanted twins and the cute twin thing.

27:50Like I was just like, if this doesn't work, I need a backup. I need insurance in there. So I signed a waiver. He was like, this is not great. We don't recommend you do two at one time, but I signed a waiver. And of course, those two little suckers stuck. And I was like, oh crap. Well, here we go. we're having two at one time um but the feeling of you know after like this whole debacle the feeling of getting pregnant at that time was just like wow like I was just so grateful I was so excited to tell everyone and then I had them and I was like oh crap like they're there to stay like now I have to really it sounds like I mean don't don't call me out on this but like you know it's like the excitement it's like almost like you know when you're you would get engaged and then you like you're so excited for the wedding and then the wedding happens and then you're like okay what now yes that's how what's the next thing to focus on what's the next thing so I was like pregnant I was excited we told everyone and like there was all this hype and then I had the kids and I was just like oh crap like it was almost like this moment where I was like well this is it.