Kate Hudson - ‘Fame is a tumultuous machine’

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0:54Welcome to How to Fail, the podcast that believes that failing better is a path to succeeding better too. This week, I'm so excited to say we have actual Kate Hudson. And I just wanted to give you a reminder before we get onto the main episode to join us for Failing With Friends, our subscriber episode where Kate Hudson gets to act as your agony aunt and we answer listener questions, requests for advice, and some insights into listener failures too. You just have to be okay not being there for everybody all the time. Do join us by following the link in the podcast notes. And if you have a question or a failure that you'd like me and my guests to discuss, look out for my monthly call outs on Instagram or you can follow the link in the show notes to contact us there.

1:40Thank you so much. Kate Hudson was once described by an admiring journalist as the human equivalent of chicken soup when you're ill. And it's certainly true that as an actress, she has starred in some of my favourite feel good watches over the years. She rose to prominence for her luminous portrayal of Penny Lane in Cameron Crowe's Almost Famous, for which she won a Golden Globe and was nominated for an Oscar. Her comedic turn as wisecracking magazine journalist Andy Anderson in How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days made that movie one of the greatest romantic comedies of the noughties, which is my opinion, but it's also correct.

2:22And her performances in everything from Bride Wars to Glass Onion have each been scene-stealing. in their own way. Raised by actors, her mother is Goldie Hawn, the man she calls her father is Kurt Russell, Hudson acknowledges that storytelling is in the family blood and turned down a place at New York University to pursue acting. Her 40s have so far proven to be a decade of intense creativity. This month, she returns to the small screen in Running Point, a new Netflix comedy from Mindy Kaling. Hudson stars as a reformed LA party girl, unexpectedly appointed president of the family's professional basketball team.

3:02Last year, Hudson also released her first album, Glorious, which entered the Billboard charts at number 10. It's a multifaceted output that stems perhaps from her admission that, in life, I just feel everything. It's so true. Is it? It's true. Oh my God. When did I say that? I do. I feel everything. You said it in an interview where the journalist quoted your teenage journal at you. And apparently you had written this journal entry when you were... Sorry, this is that creepy bit. I love it. Where I sound like a stalker. I love it. Because you forget these things. You know what I mean? That was probably a little bit a while ago.

3:46Yes. But I do remember, and now I want to remember what journalist that was, because I actually remember that. I'll send you the link. Oh, send it to me. But let's focus on this interview. Okay. And first of all, let me welcome you officially to How to Fail, Kate Hudson. Hi, I'm so happy to be here. I'm so happy to have you. That idea of feeling everything, is that hard sometimes? I mean, yes. If you're, you know, I wouldn't, like, I'm empathetic. Like, you know, I think real hardcore empaths like carry the world on their shoulder. They don't know how to escape their empathy, which is also in a weird way can be very debilitating and hard to live with, you know, and hard to be friends with people who just, you know.

4:33But they're also incredibly important in this world to be a real like empath. I feel things strongly. I see it in my daughter. Like, it's like I walk out into a day and I, it's like, I just can't wait to see what the day is going to bring. I look at a sky and I can, I can feel everything about the beauty of a sky, even like the most terrible days. Right. So it's like, I think, I think it's, my senses are very keen and aware. And so I just feel, I feel it all. That's so well expressed. And I relate to a lot of it. And I find it difficult because I think I am empathetic. I find it difficult when people criticize me not to take it very personally.

5:24Now, I'm a little podcaster, but for someone who is as famous as you are, that must have been tricky at one point in your life, I'm guessing. Did you make a decision about what to let in and what to keep out at some point? I learned, I mean, because I grew up observing and being a witness to it and like the ups and downs of it, like not only just sort of my family, my family has had extraordinary careers, very few downs, you know, but their friends and people who work in the industry, like you do really grow up realizing that it's a very tumultuous machine. Like one minute you're at the top and the next minute you're trying to figure out why you're not getting paid to write this movie or direct this movie.

6:15It's just constantly, you're constantly at the whim of executives and financiers. So it is tumultuous and you can't always be on top. So I knew that going in and I knew that like if you get into the arts, you just have to love it. if you love it, then you're going to be okay because you figure out that talent will always win and work ethic and all the other stuff is just noise. And then there's sort of age. So, so then like, let's take, put age to the equation. In my twenties, when you're first entering success, it's like, there's so much coming at you that you could get caught up in the new, the, the, little nuances of it get frustrated by it.

7:03It makes you feel violated sometimes, you know? And it is. It's incredibly encroaches on your life. It's very intense. And then if you have a good sense of self, you realize that it has nothing to do with you. It's just the way it works. So you try to like have other things matter more than you. I had more, I think, more perspective because of how I was raised. So interesting. There are so many things I want to ask you about, but I'm about to get on a tangent and I need to ask you about Running Point and Glorious. Okay. Yeah, let's just get that out of the way. Running, I loved both for different reasons.

7:52Running Point is such a blast. Was it as fun to make as it is to watch one of the best times of my life making a show as a show I say movie but um at working with people we had so much fun it was so much fun and I would leave work because it's long hours I didn't realize how long a show is and when you're like starring in the show it's like 5 a.m. to 7.30. I was not with my family, hardly. And that was really hard. And I remember thinking one day when I was going home from work, thank God, I love these people so much because this is some of the hardest hours I've ever worked on a show. And I can't wait to go to work in the morning.

8:41And if I didn't have that experience with these people, it would have been a disaster. I just want to be home with my kids. But instead I always be like, bye kids. I'm very happy to leave right now. There are some zingers in the dialogue. And one of the things that comes up early on is this idea, I'm going to get the phrasing, wait, I've got it written down. Men can fuck up when they get big jobs. Women have to be perfect off the bat. And I was like, oh my God, that resonated deep inside me. Yeah, there's going to be a lot of lines like that. But not always just about, you know, like women in the workplace.

9:19Like, it's just a lot of lines that you're going to be like, oh, that totally resonates. And a lot of lines were like, wow, they got it. Are they going to get away with that? But yeah, I mean, that is the world she's entering. And Jeannie Buss, who's the president of the Lakers, is what this is loosely inspired by. And she's one of our producers on the show. And it was really her idea for the show. And I mean, it's one thing to be like a woman in a man's world. Like, it's another thing to be the first woman to run a major basketball, professional basketball franchise. I mean, there is not one woman in that.

10:02I mean, in the community, it's so male heavy. Do you think that you have been underestimated as a woman in your industry, but also someone who is such a brilliant romantic comedic lead? I imagine that there are people who sometimes watch those movies and think that it seems effortless. And yet, it's clearly not. There's so much talent that goes into that level of comedic timing. I think there is a thing about female comedic leads that are in, are really like what you would consider dramedy. They call them rom-coms, but that sort of dramatic comedic line. It's not full comedy. It's you're sort of walking this kind of line of comedy and accessibility and honest and like being, feeling grounded.

11:00it really isn't something I think everybody can do and you see it in I mean as a producer like as I get older you know I can see it in some young talent and young girls yeah I think that sometimes for sake of money that a lot of a lot of the industry will sometimes shy away from really leaning into the right talent. I just, again, another tangent, but How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days. I don't know if you're sick of talking about it, but I just want to thank you so much for that movie. What you do in that film is beyond. It's brilliant. We've got our love ferns in the studio today for you. I just wanted to thank you for that, really.

11:49It's a great movie. We just lost our producer on that. She passed in October. Yeah, but you were saying, and I was thinking about this when you were saying, have you ever felt underestimated? And I was so lucky to have women like Linda Obst really, like she took me on that film from the very beginning, from the writing process, from writing to hiring the director to hiring cast to from production design. She wasn't like, I'm producing this movie. It's like, we were absolute partners. We did everything together. And she was a very notable producer, has produced some great films. And the fact that she took a 22-year-old young girl and empowered me to be a partner with her is not often.

12:44So I feel like I have been blessed with so many people who actually... almost encouraged me to put my ideas out there, to be like, your ideas matter, what you think matters. And, you know, it's sort of, as I reflect on my career, I got very lucky in that way. So it's sort of something you pay forward, you know, as you get older, produce yourself, you know, that you give younger women the courage to be like, your ideas need to be heard in this room, You know, and and not underestimate them because because it's because it's new because they're because it's new for them.

13:58may vary.

14:19This only. Okay, your first failure. And another reason I now love you even more is because of your failures. Your first failure, you just send it to me, relationships. I was like, well, let's talk. What I loved about this podcast, I don't believe in failure. Me neither. Like, it is who we are. Like, it's such the fear of failure is what stops people from making and doing great things. Like, period. Like, you can't do anything ever if you, I mean, what's that great quote? Like, fail, fail again. Fail harder. Fail better. What was I? A president. Fail by the president. Theodore Roosevelt or something.

15:05Whoever it was, we loved it. Fail at every range of things. Fail, just fail at it, you know? And the only thing that stops us from doing anything is the fear of failure. And then, you know, when you have those fears, I remember one of my exes said to me, I was doing something. He said, well, what are you scared of? And I'm like, I don't know. I'm just, he's like, what's the worst that can happen? Just what is it? And I'm like, I'll fall. He's like, okay. I was doing something on a stage. I'm like, I'll fall. And he's like, so what happens if you fall? I was like I don't get up it was literally that dumb you know it was like oh I just literally said my worst failure is that I would slip and fall and he's like and then you just like stand up and make a I don't know is that really what you're scared of and I was like oh it's so interesting we work ourselves up because we're so afraid we're going to get it wrong and then you're like you know what I'd rather not do it which is the worst failure of all yeah then you just always I always wonder what it would be.

16:14Yes. If you had the courage to make an album. Well, exactly that. To do something that is your great kind of fear of failure. If I fail at this, what will that do? And I think for me, making the album was really, I mean, the only reason why I never got into music is because I think that was the most vulnerable, creative place for me. And if I would have put that out as a young girl, I don't know if I'd be prepared for the criticism or when people want in, like what I was talking about earlier. I don't know if I could have handled that well because it's so personal to me. And I needed more time to like grow into myself.

17:01Or if it would have been like panned or not well received, I think it would have like destroyed me, my spirit. it and so you know there is a time too for things for you to be like ready for the move yes and it also felt with glorious like the universe was telling you you were ready because I love the story of how it came about that it was you were asked to perform firework and a fellow parent Linda Perry is this right oh well that's how it came about okay no really what happened was I had before COVID, I had such a fear of singing live. And I would get asked all the time, you know, will you come sing at this event?

17:43Or will you sing here? Because people internally know that I love to sing, but I would be like, absolutely not. Like, terrifying. No way. And my friend was getting married and she asked if I would sing at her engagement party. And I didn't realize that this engagement party was going to be in this huge theater with like a big band and like every person in our industry. And when I got there, I just froze. And I was like, I can't do this. I can't. I was pregnant with Ronnie. I was like, and I hated myself for being so afraid. And the woman that was singing that night is this woman, Maya Sykes. I went to high school with her.

18:26We were in chorus together. And I was backstage and I was like, I can't do it. I can't do this. I don't want to do it. She looked at me and she's like, and these are her words. She was like, I don't know that Kate Hudson. What are you talking about? I hadn't seen her since like high school. You love, what are you talking about? What are you doing? And she really kind of snapped me out of it because my old young self loved to sing and was never afraid of it. So then I was like, oh, fuck it. I'm getting, I can't, I can't. Now she's put it out there like, if I don't do this, then I'm, then there's some, then I gotta like go into heavy therapy.

19:09I gotta figure out what's going on. When I get on stage, it's just, the second I start to sing, everything goes away and I'm so happy. And that's what happened. And then it was wonderful. And I had a great experience. And then I was like, I need to say yes. I need to get on stage and I just need to be doing it because I love it. I love it. So that was the beginning. And then COVID happened. And when COVID happened, it was the glaring, it was a couple years later, the glaring, like red flashing light. Like, I'm creatively not happy with my output. I love making movies. I can't wait to make more movies, direct them, whatever, produce them.

19:56I love storytelling. But my love, my absolute love of writing music, I cannot be afraid to put it out in the world. Because I'll regret it. I'll, like, die and be like, I can't believe I didn't have the guts to do it. And then it sort of unfolded and I started like meeting, you know, certain people. I got involved in like the parent band at our school, which is like the most amazing parent band of all time. And they were like, you should really make an album. And I was still kind of like, I don't know. And then, yeah, I sang in lockdown in this thing with tour from Stargate. And Linda heard it and just cold called me and was like, do you want to come in the studio?

20:39and that sort of then became... Okay, got it. That long, long winded version. Not long enough for me. But since I don't need the soundbite, that really is... It's amazing. And I can feel your love of music and performing even in the way that you talk about it. I can feel that. And I'm so glad that you've done it. Was part of your reticence, and we're going to go back to relationships now. I love that word. Was it about your biological father? Was there something there? So he was a musician. Yeah, I mean, I think that, I think that, I always say I meet my dad at the piano because, because my music that, I mean, I think it comes from both sides, but like, it's very Hudson.

21:24I think that, you know, you could, I mean, it's a little deep, I'm stretching here, but, you know, you could kind of look at this idea of like, you know, my father wasn't there, he wasn't around. And then all of a sudden I'm going to be entering into the world in which he is and not really wanting to invite that in because I wasn't ready for it. Like you could get that heady with it. I try to like not because there's also just like a time and a place in your life. There's the other side for me, which is I became very like my success as an actor happened so fast and so young. And at the time, you didn't go from movies to music.

22:07So it was like that part or that idea or anything that I thought could have been something that I would have done. now for me was like I can't it's like the kiss of death like if you fail at that then like it's like you're basically just failing and and that wasn't how I felt about myself but it was the perception of how Hollywood was at the time so returning to this idea of relationships okay I think from what you said that you and I have a very similar perspective on relationships which is that a relationship is not a failure simply because it ends and I speak as someone who is divorced and all of that.

22:43But every bad relationship or every relationship that ended has taught me something really meaningful in the fullness of time. And I can still be in a relationship, in a sort of in a relationship with the relationship in a way, because it's still part of how I perceive love and how I show up in the world. Is that right? Do you think the same or similar? Yeah, I very, very, no, no, very similar. But I also think that it would be the hardest part about walking away from relationships is the feeling of failure 100 so like for for me that was the hardest thing is letting go of the fact that it feels like a failure or i couldn't make something work or i couldn't fix something and and and i think that You try, sometimes it's like, you know, you're trying and it's like, you know, to fit a square peg in the round hole and it's just never going to happen.

23:44And it's like, if only I could have made it a circle, you know, and it does, especially for people who work really hard at things and love really big and love really hard, like it does feel like a failure. and you have to kind of convince yourself. And then you realize as it heals, you realize that then you start to realize like, oh, this isn't a failure. You know, this was exactly what needed to happen. And then you can hopefully, because if you look back and you're like, uh-oh, what did I do? Why couldn't I do that? Why couldn't I give that person what they needed? Then you have to like do some real reflecting, you know, and really like figure out what that is.

24:37When I kept going through the process of relationships where it would end and I'd be like, there's only one person here that's responsible for this and it's me. Anybody who's pointing that finger out at other people because they're doing it to you and it's always that person and then it's that person. And then that person like, no, there's only one common denominator and it's going to be you. And if you're not looking at what you're inviting in or what you're putting out, then you're not going to change the pattern. You're going to keep failing. And when did you get to that point? Oh, I mean, like probably, I mean, I've got three dads.

25:24So second dad. I think, you know, what's so interesting is Matt, Matthew, Bing's dad, and I are so close. This is Matt Bellamy. Yeah. We're so close. Like we, I love him, his wife, his family, the kids, our kids are so close. Ronnie and his little girl, Lavella, they're so close. Like we figured out how to have a very different relationship that isn't about us being together, but we weren't right for each other. And we tried really, really, really hard. And instead of like blaming or creating the argument or creating the problem, it was just like, I think you kind of have to get to that place.

26:17I did personally. I was like, okay, I don't want to keep doing, I don't want to keep going down this path. It's very easy for me because I'm an Aries and I like new things and I have the means to like take care of my kids by myself. So, but I want like to find the right person, the right fit. And sometimes you're just not, it's not like anyone did anything wrong. And that was for me when I was like, I got to kind of figure out my stuff, like my personal, my relationship to myself. Like, what is that? I'd never been alone. And then, yeah, and then I was actually talked about this on, do you know Caller Daddy?

27:01Oh, I've listened to it. Yeah, yeah. I loved it. And just, you know, then I just went on this sort of like exploration. A year without men. Yeah, I did a year. I did a whole thing. It was like, you know, I took boys out of the equation and had to just kind of go through this process of feeling very uncomfortable with not having any connection to anything that could ignite my dopamine, my flirtatious, because I am very flirtatious by nature. But anything that could, you know, kind of feel like, oh, that's a good distraction. So my therapist was like, taking all of that away, all distractions away.

27:45And now we're going to focus on what's going on. And where you really get to the bottom of it or to the core of it is when your mojo goes down. You're sort of like, I have no sexual energy. You start to feel almost like this. It was like for me, this is my, I say you, not everybody has, just my experience. I started to feel this like, kind of like, like I felt yucky. I felt unattractive. I felt, but it was just like, it was almost like peeling away at all of the things that, that, you know, cause I didn't have any outlets for getting dressed up to like, you know, oh, I'm going to get dressed up and go flirt with a boy.

28:34Like it just, I just took it away. And then it was like, I can't even explain it. I hit something. I hit this core of an issue for myself. I had an absolute, almost like a childhood cry. And it was like a weight had been lifted off of me. And honestly, from that point on, I could care less about who was texting me. It was like my life became so happy alone. I was so, I felt very connected to like what I wanted to do, my daily routine with my kids, my cozy time. I didn't care about putting anything on. And so when then I went kind of went back into the dating world, my relationship to dating completely changed.

29:25I think you know because when you're young like it's you're you know you've got that thing and you're like you want to like go out in the world and be seen and do and at least I did be validated be validated oh my god you end up validating yourself you end up flirting with yourself and then you're ready yeah and here's the thing I thought I was really smart about that I thought for me it wasn't like I didn't get it you know I was like I know what my issues are I know I get it. Like, you know, what are the relationships with father? You know, all of the stuff you talk about in therapy. And I got it.

30:04But it took me to actually really have to step away from even just being social. Like it took me to actually have to delve into things that I hadn't even realized I hadn't experienced. And like trauma is a great word that everyone loves on Instagram and everywhere and everything. But I think that there's, you know, inflicted trauma. There's like real sense of trauma. I think every, when you go through certain things as a kid, there's all these trivial things that become these weird little traumas that you don't even realize were a trauma. And like, allowing yourself to feel that, I think that was one of the hardest things for me is that I always felt I'm so privileged.