Katie Price - ‘Everything bad that’s ever happened to me is because of men’

0:28This episode is brought to you by State Farm. heads up that in this episode we do talk about PTSD, we talk about sexual assault and suicide. So if for whatever reason you feel like giving this one a miss, we completely understand and if you're staying with us, I hope that you get a lot out of this truly extraordinary interview.

1:03Hello and welcome to How to Fail with me, Elizabeth Day. This podcast puts failure in the spotlight and asks us what we learn from the moments in life that don't go according to plan. Because I firmly believe that most failure can teach us something if we let it. Every week I talk to a new guest about the times they failed and how their perspective on life and what success really means was shaped along the way. Just before we get to my chat with Katie Price, please do join me after this episode on Failing With Friends, my subscriber series where we continue our conversation and we take a look at your failures or questions with my fabulous guest.

1:43This week, Katie and I go through correspondence about early menopause, career failure, and what our favourite podcasts are, not including our own. And I'd love to hear from you. If you'd like to get in touch, follow the link in the podcast notes. Get Failing With Friends episodes every week and all episodes of How To Fail ad-free. Just visit the How To Fail show page on Apple Podcasts and click Start Free at the top of the page to begin your free trial.

2:15There are certain celebrities who become so embedded in popular culture that almost everyone has an opinion on them. Katie Price is one such celebrity, catapulted into public consciousness in the late 90s as Jordan, a surgically enhanced page three glamour model who ended up gracing the cover of American Playboy. She went on to appear in several reality TV shows, including I'm a Celebrity, Celebrity Big Brother, which she won in 2015, and several of her own series. In some ways, it's almost easier to list what she hasn't done rather than what she has. In 2001, Price stood unsuccessfully as an independent candidate in the general election.

2:57Five years later, she was the runner-up in the search for the UK's entry for Eurovision. She's released six autobiographies, 11 novels, and was in the top 100 best-selling authors of all time between 2000 and 2009. In 2018, following a barrage of online abuse focusing on her disabled son Harvey, Price became a parliamentary campaigner to make online abuse a criminal offence. And yet her successes have always seemed to be slightly overshadowed by the media attention on her public failures. But I've always been struck by Price's honesty and heart, her ability to own up to mistakes and her willingness to keep on trying.

3:39As she put it in one of her memoirs, I'm so loud as if I know what I'm on about, but deep inside I'm so insecure just a little girl Katie Price welcome to How to Fail oh I love it can I just say something listening to you say that it's quite exhausting I've done so much oh by the way thanks for having me thank you for coming because you've had so many lives and you're still only 45 we're the same age and I was like wow are you and I followed your career from day one by the way I watch you on all the shows think you're great and I didn't even realize half of this stuff are you 1978 as well yes when are you Gemini no but I love that you think I'm married to a Gemini I'm a Scorpio I'm a good Scorpio but I want to go back to that little girl that we ended the intro on that idea of being an insecure little girl let's talk about her when was the first time you remember feeling insecure?

4:38I've now been diagnosed not that I believe in labels but it makes sense I've got severe ADHD and it would make sense now because I've made the wrong choices done the wrong things when really I'm just innocent gullible but yet there's that side where I just can't help to say something or do something and do something and we've worked out in my brain it's got to be my ADHD I look like I'm out there out there when really I love nothing better than to be at home cook watch telly be cozy cup of tea slippers no makeup yet if you judge me by the media yeah it's like a character they've made so being a young girl I was always into horses never into boys it was always me getting on my mountain bike I tied my radio to the handlebars and used to cycle to my horse spend all weekend there after school all there till it got dark till my mum picked me up or unless I rode the bike that was all my life and then I did swimming, gymnastics.

5:34That was my life. And then family, that was it. And you're still very into horses. So one of the shows that I watched about you was you doing dressage. Love it. Which you're incredibly good at. And it's a very controlled, graceful sport. And I wonder if there's something about the control that appeals to you. Because from an outside perspective, sometimes it feels like a lot of your life might be out of control. Yeah, I do show jumping as well. Amazing. Which is completely different. But that's what I mean. You never hear about the charity size I do. You never hear about me and my home life. If anything, you hear the opposite.

6:10Oh, she shouldn't have animals, she shouldn't have this. I don't know where they get all this stuff from. So like back in the 90s when I started, the media was so different to what it is now. I would call it more like a monopoly game. It's a game. If you want to enter this industry, there's no textbook for it. So then I learned if you give the press what they want, they give you something back. And I feel today, it's not like it was then, 20 odd years ago, it's more mental abuse. And I've said it before, I do not care if the media never writes about me or puts a picture of me in the paper again.

6:49Because all they do is try and knock me down. and I just feel they think I'm a product, not a person. I think they think of you as a cartoon character. And it ricochets off to my children, my family, my friends. It's exhausting. Now, if I do anything good, they never write about it. They just want to pick, pick. And they knew I had a breakdown. They knew I went into the Priory. And even when I was in the Priory, they were still writing about it, not giving me a break. and I just think some of these journalists these days have a lot to answer it might be their job but turn it around because sometimes if there's ever a story and I put up on Instagram and put their name in it and what paper they phone us up to take it down but it's like well hang on why is it all right for you to write a story that you don't check and even if you do and we say no comment or it's not true you still write it anyway and I just miss that days It was fun, but I don't understand why they want to keep putting me down because you've got social media now, and I do my TV programmes, where I've got a voice which probably goes out to more people than what they sell in their newspapers and magazines now.

8:01And I think an unscrupulous journalist's answer to that would be, well, she wanted to be famous, which I'm not standing behind at all as an excuse. But my question to you is, do you regret being famous now? Do you not hate that word because I still don't think I am. don't you no well it's amazing we were talking beforehand you have turned up on your own there is no entourage it's you you recognize the cameraman from a job that you've been doing you're so real and yet so many people don't think of you like that maybe because of the plastic surgery maybe because of the cartoon character that the media's created but that's fascinating that you don't think of yourself as famous i hate that word it's embarrassing i get embarrassed famous to me is someone who's like a michael jackson who's known worldwide but people have to remember I started this when I was 15 16 then I got on Patriots 17 I think it was so I do not know any different I didn't enter this world thinking oh I'm still gonna be here when I'm 45 because normally it's like a two-year or a year shelf it's like with pop bands girl bands or people are really singles I've seen so many bands pop people presenters models come and go all through my time and I'm like why am I still here and not them why and I still can't answer that now and people say yeah you're good at the press I'm like but it's my life it's like a drama series my life and I think because it is real a lot of people can relate and think bloody hell she's been through that so and I talk about things so I think people can relate that way I'm not manufactured I've made wrong choices but that's because I felt that's what I had to do at the time the worst thing about social media is you put stuff up because you're angry or you want to have a go back at someone but I've realized through therapy because I haven't done it now for over a year it's taken me that long that actually just sit back before you retaliate because when you retaliate it then encourages media encourages other people just say nothing which is so hard for me to have learned to have done.

10:11So instead, I communicate with my support group around me, air it to them and say, oh, I want to put this up. They're like, Kate, no. And I've learned to listen. There's so much I want to get into. And we'll start with your failures quite soon because they're really profound. You say that you're not manufactured, which is, I completely understand, you're so real. Yeah. And yet, people are obsessed with your historic surgical, interventions. Do you know what? So when my others are like, oh, I want this done, it's like going shopping for me, which is so bad. But I could go further than what I've done.

10:47Sometimes I do look in the mirror and think, oh, are people looking because you look plastic or are they looking because you look good? There's nothing worse than when these young girls now, and I will say it, in their early 20s, who are all getting fillers, all getting lips, all getting the boobs. I'm not hypocrite but I didn't start doing my face until I was in my 40s yes I had a boob job but I didn't even have fillers I didn't have Botox till I was like 27 28 lips I tried when they didn't know and I looked like a duck but then I just relaxed on it all the girls look the same now and I think what are they going to look like then when they're my age like I say to my kids because they're like oh mom you're not doing surgery again here and I'm like oh it's all right they're so used to I think I've put them off for life but people don't realize when you have surgery and stuff you only see before and after you don't see in between when you've had it help the pain and the cleaning the stitches out and the bed rest this that so I'd love to educate people like this it's damaging to your body I've had so many anesthetics I know I still choose to it but like I said I'm older now I didn't do it all in my 20s I think everyone looks like aliens these days have you you ever felt beautiful no I look I don't think I am now I never have no way that's embarrassing as well when you say that do you think that's part of the reason why you did it why you did a lot of stuff to yourself because you wanted to feel better do you know I'd love it if you could get in my brain but I don't think I'm beautiful or pretty but I know when I do a photo shoot and look at it then I think oh yeah I know I think I'm photogenic do you ever watch yourself back so I'm a celebrity for instance I had two moles on my face and you look so beautiful I did you did ugly I hate even looking at them and then princess goes to me mom I look like you when you were younger I went no you are beautiful princess I wasn't like you and then she gets pictures she goes look I do look like you I went I just don't see it the curly hair yeah but I've never thought it I don't know why does it make a difference if other people say but you are phenomenally good looking no because i get embarrassed because i don't think they're like i won't do it no but do you know you've seen me laugh i'm not am i oh yes you are oh my gosh you are no that makes me so sad that you can't does it yeah no i i want to ask you about junior and princess because it must be kind of amazing seeing how your parents met like there's a there's a there's a no i say that to them and now they're old enough we had this conversation yes their dad It's Peter Andre, who you met on I'm a Celebrity.

13:26Yes. When I did my podcast yesterday, because I do one with my sister, if no one knows, called The Katie Price Show. Yeah, get it in there. What a pro. I had to just do that. What a pro, I love it. No, but the reason why I say that is because yesterday, because my house is chaos, so I had all the kids in the kitchen. I'm like, kids, I'm doing my podcast, because I didn't want to go in another room, because if I want to sit on my sofa, I'll sit on my sofa. So obviously my mum's there, Princess is there, and we was talking about reality shows and stuff, and what ones I think the kids would do. So if Princess didn't have a boyfriend, she would love to do Love Island or The Jungle.

13:59And it's funny because in our kitchen, we're like, do the auditions if you walk in, what you're doing. We just have such a lot. And I can see her posing how I pose. She's got it off me. And then like Junior and Princess, either I think they'd be good to go in the jungle together or separately. And if the arm of a celebrity never put them in the jungle, I think that is the wrong move. because I think they're the only kids that have ever come from the show and it would just be iconic to have our kids in it. And I said to Princess, if you did, you'd all go in the braids and all that. I love that idea.

14:32Don't you think it would be good? Yes, it would be great. But do they watch back that series of I'm a Celebrity and see your love affair start? No. And Princess, it was only about four months ago, she didn't even know that me and Pete done an album together. Oh, well, we're going to get on to your singing, so let's save that. But before we do, before we get into your failures, I wanted to ask you about being a mum. I love it. Well, I was about to say, I think you sound like an amazing parent. And I wonder, what do you think it's taught you, especially being mum to Harvey? I've always been a caring type.

15:04Like with my horse, I'd spend hours brushing it. If I saw a dead bird, I'd bring it in, try and get it alive. I've always wanted it. I just always wanted animals, love, babies. When my sister was born, I was so excited because I wanted to change the nappy, feed her, wrap her in a blanket. and it's like I had Harvey I took a chance it was sort of starting my career was starting to take off and then obviously I got pregnant and I did try and abort him three times I don't I know that sounds really bad but that was my choice I turned up three times and then I sat there waiting I thought I can't do this three and then walked out three times and I ended up keeping him because I just couldn't do it because I thought why am I actually getting rid of him for what reason But I'm doing it for my career, that's selfish, because I shouldn't have put myself in that situation.

15:52And then I thought, you know, I've got to support it. I've never taken a penny off his dad, ever, ever, ever. And his real dad doesn't want to see him either, which is a shame, but the door is always open. So I sort of, me being me, thought, you know what, I'm going to do it. And I did. And I never knew that I had a perfect pregnancy. Well, he was nearly three weeks late. He didn't want to come out. he was quite comfy in there and then obviously when he was born I found out six weeks later that he was blind and then from then when now he's got it's called SOD septic optic dysplasia he's cortisol deficient ADHD opposite deficit disorder Prada willies behaviour problems tick disorder and obesity so he has all these complex needs oh did I say challenging behaviour he's got such a list of things wrong with him but he's perfect to me and I wouldn't change him for anything and I think the bond we have is amazing he doesn't judge me he doesn't know what black male hate is worry is all he worries about is when he's next seeing me cuddles kisses that is it and I love him so much and I'm not so much worried about his eyes it's his behavior he's very challenging him but I know how to stop him just like that no one else will I know noises to make it's like we're so in tune we've got our own language going on and it's very rare to see that although my other kids we've brought them up the same they all have different needs they need from me does that make sense of course yeah but Harvey is challenging but I wouldn't change him for anything well it sounds like he's the only totally non-judgmental person in your life Non-judgmental, no dad involved.

17:38The ones who have got dads, there's a nightmare in my life. Nightmares. And I have therapy to deal with exes. Thank you so much for sharing that. Sorry, I can talk and talk, mate. You're the ideal guest. I'm loving it.

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19:02let's get into your failures you're not many where we start you've only got well you've got three that you've chosen for the purposes of today you have to remind them yes your first failure is marriages but more specifically choices in partners and how that's impacted you so here we go from when I was young and this is well it would all make sense with the marriages when I was young it was in my first book I got raped in a park when I was seven that was my first incident with a man then a man tried to duck me into a car and then I worked with a photographer who I thought was legit and so did my mum and that and he used to take pictures of me but then the police knocked on our door and said about this guy he had 12 different names 12 different bank accounts and he was obsessed with me so say like I was only like 13 and I'd stick my tongue out the camera and I thought it was a fun he'd look at it a different way and he used to drug girls with this pineapple milkshake but I didn't like it so I never took it and I remember one day he had a woman with him and he wanted me to have nothing on have a wet shirt over and I said oh no I felt really uncomfortable and I was like oh no it's too cold they're like oh no we put warm water on and I'm thinking, Mum, Nan, hurry up and come back.

20:18And then it was about a week or so after that we had child protection over about this guy. So my start with men hasn't really been that good. And then my first boyfriend used to beat me up and he used to go out and come home when he liked. The next one used to cut my clothes up and my mum would have to pick me up when I was naked in the street. I'd have to go to a telephone box. then the next one started cheating on me. So if you think my first relationships weren't really healthy relationships, and then you start thinking to yourself, you're insecure, why are they doing this, doing it, and then you become needy, vulnerable, gullible, because you think the next guy that's going to come along, oh, yeah, they're saying they're right, oh, they really love me, love me, love me, and then you get insecure, and then you get jealous, and then ends up being toxic.

21:12so if men have not been in my life I wouldn't be in the bankruptcy things that I've been in I wouldn't be tormented in my brain how I have been mentally abused like I have been it's all to do with men and then I thought is that why I ended up doing modeling because it's like you can look at me in a magazine but you can't touch me I don't know if it's associated with it but I have therapy all because of men. First of all, I want to say... It's exhausting. I am so sorry that you have gone through that. That is... Yeah. Traumatic doesn't cover it. No, it is all traumatic. I want to go back, and I understand that a symptom of PTSD, which you live with, is speaking about deeply difficult things in a detached way that can protect you.

22:06And it's not normal and healthy to do that, though. But also I want you to tell me if any of my questions are causing you any hurt or upset. You'll probably see by my actions if I start with. But I'm happy to answer them. No, I'm absolutely fine. I see a therapist every two weeks. And like you'd probably know, I've been in the private, you'll ask me about that. But communication and talking about things is the best way forward. And I never knew how to do that before. And I'd keep it in, which would make things ruminate in my brain and be worse and worse. but I do have to say all my because I was in there for severe traumatic rehabilitation of PTSD it's all caused by men can I ask you about that assault in a park when you were seven because that sounds totally terrifying was it a stranger no it's never ever bothered me until I did the Piers Morgan show and I cried about it on his show you know he does life stories and I remember going why am I crying about this it's never even bothered me it hasn't stopped me doing anything but obviously somewhere in my brain it has and when he asked me and it obviously all came forward and I'm like I was embarrassed I cried about it because it's never it's not like something I think about all the time but obviously I know it's happened I don't know if this is a skill or a defense mechanism that whatever trauma I've had in life I always say there's no point sitting in a corner crying about it, get up and get on with it because if you don't help yourself, no one else will.

23:37Did it scare you at the time when you were seven? Did you tell anyone about it? Yeah, because my mum, she was having a cup of tea at the... They had like a cafe. So I remember all the police come in. They took all my knickers and all of that to look at it all. I can remember what the man looked like now. But yeah, they never found him. But I can remember it as clear as day. How do you feel now talking about it? See, I'm quite comfortable talking about it. And it's weird because when I did SAS, even though I didn't last long on there, they said... This is Who Daz, the celebrity SAS TV show. They said mentally I was one of the strongest people they've ever had on it.

24:17But obviously I didn't really train properly. But anyway. And the way I was talking about how I've been held at gunpoint, kidnap threats and all of this, serious ones, how matter-of-fact I'm about talking about them as if like, oh yeah, like I bought a pair of shoes, oh yeah, I was held at gunpoint. It's just the way I say it is not normal reaction. So through therapy, they've taught me about self-validation, mindfulness, assertiveness, the fact now I can sit here now and say I used to want a man because I needed a man. Now, I don't need a man. If I want a man, it's because I want them. Yes, you're not codependent.

24:57And there's a massive difference. I know my self-worth I know what I've got to offer and boundaries is another thing I've learned I've never had boundaries in any relationships and I think that's important for example why should a man think they can go through my phone why should a man have my passwords to everything because if that trust isn't there then there you go that's a boundary crossed you shouldn't made to be feel like that coming to my workspace with me all the time that is not normal why would someone want to stop me earning money to work because they might think I might bump into an ex or they might not like the conversation I do have a pass and I probably will bump into an ex if people talk about me oh I loved you and Pete together or I loved your song then it causes an argument for me when they walk away and I'm like but it's not my fault I have got a pass and people like love that song like a whole new world so whenever I've had a drink and I want to do karaoke I want to sing a whole new world you know and then that would cause trauma but it's not because I'm thinking of Pete I love Whitney Houston that's been at all my weddings but it sounds to me as though a lot of your exes have sought to control you because control because they're scared of something and potentially what they might have been fearful of is your power your sexual power it's all of that they know if they go out of me I get attention but I don't walk in a place looking for it that's the difference if anything I'd wear a tracksuit out for dinner and just have my hair in a ponytail no makeup I'm not interested with anyone looking at me but obviously people have grown up with me so they want to ask for pictures or this and that and I'm not rude but it does bug the person I'm with I think what they can't get their head around is I do these shows I'll get invited to all these things but then I just go home and I'm normal with my friends normal just no makeup do you know what I mean just normal family they don't know which one they want almost and it's like I don't think it matches because they think that when they're going to go to my house I'm glamorous at home champagne this that and it's nothing like that have you ever had a same sex relationship never no I have done the opposite sex in the Playboy Mansion when I lived there the same sex or the opposite sex oh what do you mean girl or girl have you ever been in a gay relationship yeah no much about when I've been pissed when I was younger but not on my own with a girl, no, because to me that would be on the other way.

27:25Because I also know that you... But I can appreciate if a girl's pretty and if I ever was going to go for a girl, they would have to look like a really pretty boy. Okay. Does that make sense? It makes total sense. I'm interested in the idea of friendship. Are you trying to turn me gay? Basically, this is all an elaborate ruse, Casey. No, I love that. For you and me. I've never been asked that. Are you gay or straight? I'm straight. Oh, there you go. Have you ever thought of it? Never. I think I have sort of admiration crushes on women. I've never had a gay experience. Not me asking you that story.

28:01No, no, no, I love it. I love it. But I was speaking to someone yesterday who has had a gay relationship and she said one of the most amazing things about it is that she feels she was in a romantic relationship with her best friend. And when they broke up, they also had to break up their best friendship. It's funny you say that. So a girl, Sally, who was my birthing partner with Harvey, who I used to go at, she used to do my makeup for years, and we lived together. She lives away now. I always used to say to her, and she always used to say to me, if only you was a man, you'd be my perfect partner.

28:33We'd never done anything together because we had so much fun together, done absolute everything together. You would think we was in a relationship because we were inseparable. The only thing we didn't do was have sex. Yeah. Yeah. I'm interested that you have chosen this as one of your failures, because it sounds to me like you have survived a lot of really terrible relationships and individuals who made awful choices and treated you really badly. So it's really their failure and not yours. But does it feel... They make you feel like it's my fault. That's the trouble. They turn it around. And then sometimes you think, am I mentally going wrong?

29:11I don't see what they're saying. I haven't done nothing wrong. But they make me feel like I have. And then I'm like, well, I'm wrong because I want to go to work. I'm wrong because I'm independent. I'm wrong because I don't need a father figure. I'm wrong because I want to organise things. I'm wrong. I would like a man to have swept me off my feet or just want me for me, not what you think you can get. I've never, ever, ever had a man take me shopping. Never had a man say, right, I've booked a table for us to go dinner, get dressed up. or never had a man say look we're going to go away for a weekend I'm treating you I don't know what I would do if that did happen I just compare it makes me cringe because I'm so used to just paying for everything I don't know what it's like the other way around I'm sure you've spoken about this in therapy and being asked this before how much do you think it's related to your biological dad leaving when I think everyone asks this and you know it is true to an extent so I can't remember my dad not being there but when I asked my mum you get two types of parents you can get a parent well not two there's loads of different types are you the kind of parent that so if you had homework or anything and you went home to show them would they be like oh yeah I'll have a look later later or would you be the parent to say oh show me your work that even can affect you when you're older or if you've got a swimming lesson or horse riding lesson or something were they there to watch or did they drop you off were they there at your school assembly so if you look back as a kid yourself and you know you have a school assembly and you know your mum's like you get excited so imagine if you didn't see your parent there you'd be a bit like oh wish mine would turn up so my real dad never came to anything and my mum said he was always away working and maybe on a Sunday he'd come and cuddle me or whatever but I can't remember that so they call it abandonment so deep down my issue's always been meant and that's obviously because my dad wasn't there even though my mum remarried and I look at my dad I call him Paul because I do still see my real dad every now and again and he's a laugh and all of that like there's so many a likeness with us but if I had anything I would go to him not my real dad but yeah I used to look at kids if I went to their house their mums and dads were there cooking they'd get cuddles from their dads you do look at it and think, oh, I wish mine was like that.

31:29Even though I had the dad there, I know it wasn't the completeness. And I think I've always wanted to create my own complete fairytale family. And I think that's where it comes from. But I've just gone quick finding the wrong man, whereas now I would not do that. I was about to ask, do you still want to create the fairytale family unit? Do you know what? I'm absolutely exhausted with relationships. I'm exhausted with the marriages. although the first one p i'd like to say it was real if you knew what i knew now if people want to know they can read my mum's book because i've been gagged you'll read that and you'll see and but everything we did was on tv magazines because we had the same management to me that's not real marriage the second ones i just think were rehearsals they were just rebounds and i know it's awful to say but they were i just rushed them because i just wanted that married life back living with someone, having the life with the kids, because that's what I had with Pete.

32:30And then relationships I've had after, it's just, they just end up being the same. So now in therapy, we talk about what are the patterns that go on. You know, I've had domestic abuse, I've had it all. So now I'm so exhausted with relationships that the next time I go out with someone, they have to have the qualities in it, boundaries in it, or someone, red flags, all of this, and it does scare me. But might you conceive of a future where you're just not ever in a relationship again and maybe you have your needs fulfilled in a different way? I couldn't. I've never had a one-night stand in my life.

33:05That is my assignment to you. I want you to go out. I can't. Ask this podcast. I can't. I didn't lose my virginity to my 16th birthday because my mum said, you never do that. So I didn't. The thing is, it's interesting. Back in the Jordan days, there's a lot of people, only the older generation know who Jordan is. Because when I do TikTok and that, they're like, it's Katie Price or she looks like Jordan, whatever. Some of them have no idea of an amazing career I had being Jordan. And I didn't change my name from Jordan to Katie. It was the media that changed it. It was either one week, Jordan's out partying.

33:41When I become a mum, suddenly I was now Katie Price, not Jordan, where I'm the same person. I only changed my name because I did page three and it can stop you doing works. We just come up with the name Jordan, just like that. so I always looked when I went out with my friends the I looked like the slag right I looked like a hooker basically I looked like trash little outfits little skirts boobs out but that was my insecurity I felt that's what men wanted to see but now when I look back it gives off a wrong impression that's not waifu material is it that's just a shag material in my eyes it sounds to me like you need to be seen for who you really are but now you need someone to see you as you really are without the madness of the the culture of celebrity around you but that was the thing so the one night stand thing it would I could easily talk to a guy all night and then say night a prick teaser that's refreshing yeah let's move on to your second failure which is we've already touched upon quite extensively but it's mental health oh my god specifically the fact that you have found it very hard historically to open up because that felt like a failure to admit that you weren't coping when you're in that dark place you just want to die you don't want to be here you just don't it doesn't matter what anyone says until you've been in that situation it's really hard to tell someone how you feel because you just think everything is noise black there's just no help with anything you just feel shit you sleep you don't communicate with anyone you just don't want to be here that's how bad I was I could sit and talk about it now but at the time it was horrific that's how bad I felt especially because sorry to interrupt because you love being a mum so much but that's how bad that's how it was I was ill yeah that's the only way because I just couldn't cope with the noise from everyone anymore being judged it was like I'm drowning And then obviously I've had three massive kidnap threats where they wanted to kill me.

35:50I remember my kids had to go to school in Scotland Yard for three months, taking my kids to school. Was this after South Africa? No, that was before them. South Africa, Junior, Princess and me and the film crew. And it was my best friend. He still can't see in his eye now because he was knocked out in the car and blood everywhere because they took the keys. They're holding guns at us. and I was on the front seat and obviously the guy was doing what he was doing to me while the kids were on the back seat inappropriately touching me or I thought we were all going to die and then it's like a horror film I'm getting in the front seat trying to find the keys to drive off but they had nicked the keys then they come back so I wouldn't open the door then I had a pillow pull it over my head because I thought they were going to shoot us so I was protecting the kids it was horrific and princess till she had to have therapy till this day she doesn't like it dark going out at night in the cars and stuff.

36:43Do you? Do I exhaust you? No, not at all. I have got good stories to tell as well. You do me the greatest honour by sharing this. Thank you. Absolute honour. If anyone can ever learn from anything I say, it's like real. It doesn't matter what dark place you're in. I've been there thinking that I'm never going to get out of it. You then don't reply to bills. You don't pay things. You don't do that. and before you know it, everything's on top of it and you think, how am I going to get out of this? I can't, it's noise, it's noise, it's noise, I can't cope, but you can. Not everything's as bad, no one knows the future.

37:20You can get, you've just got to communicate. So if there's anyone out there who are in a dark place or they think they are and they're worried about a bill or something like this, just communicate with them people and tell them how you're feeling, what's going on. It's better to do that than ignore. It's when you ignore and don't communicate is when everything comes crashing down. but I've had to learn the hard way to do it. I think that's great advice.

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