Kristin Scott Thomas – ‘Having children allowed me to see where I’d gone wrong’

0:00I was very good at holding it in, at not letting anybody, don't cry in class, don't do this, don't do that, don't keep it all back, be the funniest in the room. Having children allowed me to see where I'd gone wrong and where I was beating myself up and where I was, you know, doing unnecessary sabotage and damaging. And of course, because I'd been used to father's dying, and I'd kind of grown up with it and got over it, and as I said, kept going, grieving for my mother was just like being run over by a tank. This episode of How to Fail is brought to you by Dove Whole Body Deodorant. Welcome to How to Fail, the podcast that looks beneath the hood of success to see the failure that lies underneath.

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1:20brand power tools so you can tackle projects side by side. Gift more and do more together this Father's Day with help from The Home Depot. Exclusions apply. See homedeepot.com slash price match for details. So good, so good, so good. New summer arrivals are at Nordstrom Rack stores now. Get ready to save big with up to 60 % off brands like Rag & Bone, Levi's, Adidas, and Free People. Join the Nordiclub to unlock exclusive discounts, shop new arrivals first, and more. Plus, buy online and pick up at your favourite rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack. We all have our favourite Dame Kristen Scott Thomas performance.

2:02It might be the brittle but heart-sore Fiona in Four Weddings and a Funeral. Or the married woman who experiences a sexual awakening with an enigmatic Hungarian count in The English Patient. Perhaps it's her turn in The Horse Whisperer, which she acted in despite being terrified of horses. Or her role as the businesswoman in Fleabag, who delivers a memorable monologue about women being born with pain built in. Maybe it's one of the riveting performances Scott Thomas has delivered in fluent French, the lead in Thriller Tell No One, or the doctor released from prison in I've Loved You So Long. Or it's the icy Diana Tavener, Deputy Director General of MI5 in Apple TV's Slow Horses.

2:49Then there are her stage performances. She won an Olivier for her turn in The Seagull in 2008. It's a hugely successful career, and yet it almost ended in failure when teachers at the Central School of Speech and Drama discouraged her from acting in probably saying that she lacked talent. Instead, she moved to Paris as an au pair and restarted her training there. Her childhood had been beset by both happiness and tragedy. Her father, a Navy pilot, was killed in a plane crash when she was five. Her mother, left widowed at 28 with four children, remarried one of his colleagues, only for him to die in a near identical accident when Scott Thomas was 11.

3:35It's an unimaginable experience she has used as inspiration for her directorial film debut, My Mother's Wedding, in which she also co-stars and which she co-wrote with her second husband, John Micklefwaite. The film tells the story of three sisters who return home for the wedding of their twice widowed mother. In bringing it to the screen, Scott Thomas says, I wanted to take my past and make it into something positive and to show that, yes, catastrophe at a young age can be disastrous. And sometimes it just makes you who you are. Dame Kristen Scott Thomas, welcome to How to Fail. Thank you. It's so lovely to meet you in this studio.

4:20And I'm also aware that writing a potted introduction like that can be rather emotionally bruising, I imagine, to hear again and again and again your life story sort of rehashed for the purposes of journalism. When you hear it over and over again, as I have, because I've been doing this a very, very long time, it does, it's so boring. Everybody knows that, but actually lots of people don't. And then when they do find out the sort of the kind of catastrophic element they're often quite kind of flummoxed by it and I guess that's why it's in all the articles because people people can't quite believe what they're reading.

5:07The film that you have directed starred in and written is that an attempt to reclaim that narrative for yourself? Yeah absolutely spot on I just I just got yeah a bit fed up with seeing that every single profile always had a little paragraph about my tragic childhood. And I said, oh, hang on, it wasn't that bad. And then looking at it, you think, well, actually, that is quite serious. Serious damage could be caused by that. And then I had to think and I thought that that perhaps could be shared and understood by lots of other people and turn it into a story with a kind of positive tilt to it rather than just under the label tragic.

5:52Yes. And it is a very joyous film. Yeah, I think so. Do you feel more joyous now at the age of 65, which I can't believe looking at you, but do you feel more joyous now than you did 10, 20 years ago? Yes. No, I do. I do. And I think it's because, well, I found love, which is a very lovely thing to happen. And I've also managed to kind of complete things in my career. and when I say that I mean I've played I've sort of done tragedy now I feel I've sort of done it and I've emptied the bag there's no more left and I think I did that when I did Elektra I think that's what I thought I don't have to do that ever again I don't have to weep for a dead father ever again and so that was that was quite healing I would say playing that so there's a lot of stuff and you know time and lots of work I've done lots of work I've never made a secret to that I've done lots of work with therapists and people you know psychoanalysts to keep myself on track and that's worked You mentioned finding love and you co-wrote as I said in the introduction this film with your husband what was it like working together?

7:28It was great it was really fun because we sort of complement each other. He manages to hold a lot of things in place at the same time, whereas I'm totally scatterbrained and find that quite difficult. But I'm much better at dialogue than he is. I could hear the voices, but he could sort of build a structure. So anyway, I could hear the voices. I don't know whether that's a good thing to admit to. I hear voices. You take that to the psychoanalysts. Yes, yes, yes. There are so many things I want to ask you about the film. One is the decision, which I found a very moving one, to use animation. When there is one sister in particular, played by Scarlett Johansson, who has these memories, and those memories are shown through animation.

8:18Why did you choose to use that form? The reason I chose animation was because my memories that, you know, I was five. I'm not sure how true they were. And so the lovely thing about animation and the drawing and particularly that technique, which is painting on glass, which is why it has that sort of quivering feel. that gives a sort of looseness to it and it's sort of not precise and it's not exactly real and none of the characters have eyes and that's because they're not alive and I just felt that that was the right way to go. I think you can be very emotional with... It really can be piercing animation.

9:10animation. You can get a lot done with a drawing. Yes. Did playing the mother character give you new insights into how you feel your mother might have felt? Gosh, I'd never thought about that. No, not really. I mean, they're so, so different. I mean, it certainly gave me insights into how I was as a mother. But it's what the ideal, I think she's the ideal mother, really. I think she's fantastic.

9:46But, yeah, I mean, it was just about, it was, funnily enough, the scene that everybody says, what a wonderful scene, because you really, that was written by my husband. Very generous of you to say that. Is that the one with the children line? Yes. Yes. We won't give away too much. But it's very, very good. And you got a phenomenal cast together. So the sisters are played by Scarlett Johansson, Sienna Miller and Emily Beecham. I know, it's unbelievable. I mean, how terrific. And Frida Pinto. It's unbelievable. And James Fleet. I love James Fleet. Who you're reunited with. I know, again. Wait, so you, did you, was your first...

10:24I've been married to him before, you know. Okay, so you first professionally worked together on Four Weddings and a Funeral. Yes. Okay. That's where we met. And how many times have you been reunited since? I think that was only the third time we've worked together. But we were married in the Three Sisters, in Chekhov's Three Sisters. Okay. So, you know, we've been down that road. Yeah. And is it nice being reunited with someone who's known you for so long? It is. It is. I mean, we're not friends outside. I mean, we're always pleased to see each other. But, you know, I don't have very many friends in this business, actually, funnily enough.

11:00But it's really nice to be able to, there's something that happens when there's somebody you work really well with, and I work really well with James, is that you just, they bring out the best in you and you can sort of relax and it just sort of clicks and you don't have to feel, you have to pull the scene in any one direction. It just has its own life. And that's a really fun thing to happen. And that doesn't happen all the time. You know, it can happen. When it does, it's great. But it's not all the time. Where are most of your friends from if they're not from the business? I don't know. I keep trying to think, do I have any friends?

11:38Yes, I do. No, a lot of them are in filmmaking, but not necessarily actors. But there are actors that I love and I'm always really happy to find again. But because we live such nomadic lives, it's quite difficult. Let's get on to your failures. There's so much more I could ask you about, but let's hope they come up as part of your failures. Your first failure is your first ever film with Prince. I know. Can you believe that was a failure? It was. It was awful. Oh. So at this time, you've gone to France as an au pair. You've re-kicked, started your training as an actress. You get a part in a French play and that gets you on audition.

12:22Oh, that. No, the French play, by the way, was a huge hit, even though it was tiny, tiny, tiny. But I got my first ever proper review, which was the best review I've ever had. And it was tragic that it should be my first. Anyway, and then the reviews come for the film that we do with Prince. And they were not good. But so I was doing this show in a field in Burgundy and creating a bit of a fuss and it was all brilliant, riding high. And I get called up to go and do this audition. And they're shooting in France and they need local actresses to play, you know, bit parts, girlfriends, girlfriend one, girlfriend two.

13:08And so I think, great, that's fantastic. I trot along, go to this amazing hotel called the Crillon in Paris, which is just beautiful. I'd never been anywhere like that, never even been in a hotel, actually, to be honest. And I walk into this thing and do my interview, my audition. And because the roles were so short, they gave you the lead to read because it was only like exclamations. Oh, Mary, you look great, you know, this sort of thing. and so there was no sort of content there wasn't enough content to find out whether you were any good so they gave us this other scene and I did it and there was a bit of a kerfuffle behind the camera and I was getting a bit worried and somebody poked their head up and said would you like to audition for the lead yeah I would I'd love to so off I go and I do and as I said I'd never been in a hotel before I got asked which hotel I wanted to stay in in Nice I met Prince that was incredible What's that like?

14:10Meeting Prince for the first time? You know I was a massive fan it was what 1982, 83 something like this and I was listening to the record of that summer on my Walkman listening to it non-stop on a loop and just loved it and there I was with this man and hello how do you do and there were three other men around him already men for me was something a bit scary to be honest but like and then there was this person dressed and it was really him I'd never met anyone as famous in my life you know I really was sort of gobsmacked but you know you have to keep going so you put one foot in front of the other and you go and sit on that chair and you're sort of a little bit trembly and the rest of it and then he blew it because he was also a bit nervous and he because we were kids you know I was 23 he was 24 and he makes and it was a very impressive dining room and he goes he makes some sort of movement with his hand and this bread roll this nice crispy bread roll goes skedaddling across this polished floor anyway it was all a bit bit odd and then the next day niece hair makeup you know the whole shebang and costumes and and dancing lessons.

15:30And I just really couldn't believe, could not believe it was happening to me. Was he mesmeric in his charisma? Yeah, but I'm not sure it was him or whether it was just the thing around him, which is this monster of fame and talent and people protecting him like crazy. So it was a very weird vibe where everyone's laughing hilariously anything vaguely funny he could say. And everybody's sort of making sure everything's all right all the time. And it's a weird energy around people who are incredibly talented and precious because they bring in a lot of money. Did it teach you how to deal with fame when later you became famous?

16:18No, no, that did not shed any light on that, on my particular brand of fame. that was out there. I mean, it was, you know, extraterrestrial. It wasn't anything that... I've never encountered anything like that since, really. I want to come back to Prince and Under the Cherry Moon, the movie that you did together, but I'm intrigued as to your take on what fame is and whether you find it boring. Yeah, do I think it's boring?

16:54no I think I mean I think it's actually actually the older I get and I think this is what you were talking about in the beginning is am I happier yeah definitely is that I've come to terms with the fact that if people enjoy what you do it's not bad I think there's some sort of old bit of bad Catholicism in me or something that makes me think that wanting people to like me is a bad thing or wanting people to enjoy or I'm showing off or something. There's always something sort of a bit iffy about that for me or was. But now I've come to terms with the fact that if people enjoy it, it's okay. It's good.

17:39It's nice. Yes. And I think that's because I do more theatre. So I understand more what it's like to be in a room with people who've bought a ticket for that night. They've got this contract with the theatre. So they're going to come and they're going to have a really good time. And they might cry, they might laugh, they might, you know, get bored. But they've decided to come and they've decided to come for a reason. And often you are part of that reason. Is there a character in the lexicon of characters that you've played that feels to you that it speaks most to your soul? well if I tell you that when I played Irina Arkadina in The Seagull my children said oh well no acting required then but I did love Bridget in I think she was called Bridget in Phoebe's piece oh Fleabag yes yes love that Belinda Belinda not Bridget Bridget was someone else Bridget was in Belinda, Bridget.

18:43Bridget was in Salmon Fishing in the Yemen. I loved playing Bridget. Belinda, I know I'm getting off on a tangent, but we just have to talk about Belinda because that monologue was so seismic for so many women. And Phoebe was my first ever guest on How to Fail. She's a very good friend of mine. And I'm so grateful to you for doing that justice. And it felt so radical at the time. did it also reflect your experience of getting older as a woman in terms of the radicalisation of it? I can't even tell you how this thing, when it arrived in my letterbox, it was just like, oh, at last someone is saying these things.

19:26Thank God. Yes. Loved it. And there was no way I wasn't going to do that. You know. Yes. You also recently read an extract from Giselle Pellico's autobiography. and you've said some very interesting things about male critics not really understanding the depth or nuance of the female experience. Do you feel that you've become more radical? Can I just make a little correction about that? It's not that male critics don't understand. It's that we need more women playwrights so that it becomes more normal for women to stand up on stage and talk about our bodies, about our experience of childbirth, about our experience of menopause, about our experience of life full stop.

20:16So I just think that I don't know what the ratio is male to female, but I think that that argument was misconstrued. Okay. Well, thank you for clarifying. But I definitely feel that I'm becoming more radical as I get older. More impatient. I just get impatient with the, I'm just impatient with why are we still doing this? Why is this not, why is there only, I mean, hopefully it's changed, but I read somewhere that there was 4 % of medical research goes into women's bodies. Yeah, I mean, it's extraordinary. Yeah. Extraordinary. Mm-hmm. Yes. I mean, this is. Stuff like that. Yes. It's deeply irritating.

21:01And that sense of shame that we were touching upon is so often internalized by women when they go through some sort of medical experience that is so underfunded and under-researched. And in my personal experience, what I bring to that is the experience of miscarriage or infertility, which I went through. And there's so little money in research devoted to that. I mean, that's changing, but I think you're completely right that it adds to this feeling that we have to be silent about what we go through. Yeah. Well, we haven't been very silent. and thanks to people like Phoebe and thanks to women writing plays.

21:38It all comes back to, we just need to be able to say more. Giselle Pellico, what she did writing that book is fantastic. Thank you, Giselle, for writing that. It takes a lot of guts to do that. So, yeah, I don't really think of myself as being a campaigner or anything like that. Sometimes I just lose patience with it. Your early performances, and this was one of the things that lazy journalists like me used to say, were notable for their restraint. Do you think that that was a reaction to being too much in Under the Cherry Moon?

22:26And I mean restraint in a good way. No, I think that, I don't think it was. It wasn't consciously that anyway, but it was just doing things the way I wanted to do them and it seemed to work. So if I wanted to be restrained, I could be and they seem to like it, so I'll go and be restrained again. I mean, lately my performances have got a lot more extravagant. Are you enjoying Diana Tavener? Yes. Why? Well, you've watched it, haven't you? Of course. Well, there you go. Well, part of what I value about Diana Taverner in Slow Horses is the lack of private life. We don't know that much about her. Nothing at all.

23:10It's all top secret. Which is really important as playing a female character. To have some sort of background. No, it's actually important not to in a way. It's a sort of privilege that has been afforded to male characters. That we don't care whether she's got six kids at home and has to go do the shopping. Exactly. No, it is. It's true. That is one thing. I'd never thought of that. And I think you're quite right. It's a good point. Oh, thank you. Let's just end the interview there. Let's quit while we're ahead. Have you ever rewatched Under the Cherry Moon? Well, only snippets of it because it really does.

23:46But, you know, the soundtrack is amazing. The photography is amazing. some bits are acting you know Francesca Anis is acting as Soxov and she's brilliant

23:59it's you know it is what it is it was an 80s film in the period of dynasty and the rest of it and I'm very grateful for it to be honest because it taught me a lot I mean literally I did not know you had to do the same thing twice when they have a wide shot and a close shot. I didn't know it. I knew nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing. There was one scene where I was being kissed and it was in a, I don't know where it was, racetrack or something, lying on the ground. And I had my hands by my side because it never happened to me before. I'm lying there, waiting. And then the kiss happens. And the script, very nice script supervisor, comes over to me and says, Kristen, could you just move a bit?

24:50You look a bit stiff.

24:54Lying there waiting. Oh, bless.

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27:43There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required, compatibility and availability varies 18+. Let's get on to your second failure. It's a big one. I know. But thank you for talking about it because so many people will get a lot from this, I think. And it's your failure to deal with grief as a young teenager. Yes. Well, I think that that is a failure that needn't have been a failure, an unnecessary failure. It wasn't really me sabotaging anything. It was because there was, at the time, this was in the 1970s, there really wasn't any kind of pastoral care or there wasn't any therapy or anything like that, cancelling, call it what you like.

28:39And there I was, a small girl, made, you know, orphaned. my father died when I was nearly, well I was five and a half and then when I was eleven and I just started a new school, it happens again and that was much more than anybody could really handle I think by themselves and I know terrible things believe me, I know no one was doing it to me on purpose, it wasn't cruelty, it was just fate. So I know that it's, but everybody deals with their own stuff differently. But I wasn't able to get over that really for a very, very long time. And it needn't have been the case. So it wasn't genuinely my failure, I suppose.