Louise Thompson - ‘I asked myself: Am I alive?’

0:26Race the rudders! Just a quick heads up before we get into the episode that we do discuss during the course of our conversation Louise's experience of a very traumatic birth. And we go into some detail around that and we also talk about her subsequent PTSD. Now, it is a profoundly important conversation and I know that many of you will resonate deeply with it. However, I also know that some of you might be extremely sensitive right now to the topics under discussion. And if that's the case, I want you to look after yourself first and to protect your heart and maybe give that part of the conversation or this episode a miss for now and come back to it when you're ready.

1:16Without further ado, here is the extraordinary Louise Thompson on how to fail.

1:32Hello and welcome to How to Fail with me, Elizabeth Day. In my podcast, we look at and celebrate our unique individual failures because ultimately they're the stepping stones to success. Every week I invite a guest to look at their failures and what has come afterwards that might have helped them grow and succeed. Before we begin, I just wanted to remind you about my subscriber series, Failing With Friends. Today, Louise and I look at your questions and give our advice for what it's worth. We covered a failure to stand up for yourself, social media induced stress and FOMO, battling physical illness and mental health, and drinking or not, how to combat social anxiety around desire to go sober.

2:17And we would love to hear from you. Just follow the link in the podcast notes.

2:28Until 2021, Louise Thompson was known as the former Made in Chelsea castmate turned fitness influencer who twice appeared on the cover of Women's Health. But when she gave birth to her son Leo, all that changed. She experienced a series of life-threatening hemorrhages before ending up in intensive care, absolutely convinced she was going to die. Since then, she has suffered PTSD, panic attacks, and countless further complications, resulting in being fitted with a stoma in January this year. And yet, Thompson has managed to alchemise her pain into something deeply inspiring for her 1.4 million followers on Instagram.

3:13Inspiring, yes, but also searingly honest. I've never encountered anyone so willing to bare their soul and share what they're going through as they're going through it, the highs, the lows, and the inevitable pitfalls. Her newly released memoir, Lucky, is testament to the importance of her voice in the physical and mental health space. It is an extraordinary read, sometimes harrowing, sometimes uplifting, but always unfailingly honest. I'm so honoured that she's on the podcast today. What she went through almost killed her, but as Thompson writes in her memoir, surviving it has given me an awakening.

4:01Louise Thompson, welcome to How to Fail. Thank you so much for having me and I love your intros and I honestly was thinking this morning if I can get through the intro without crying that'll be a really good start. How are we doing so far? I feel really good this is such a big moment for me because I've you know I've admired this podcast for such a long time and being able to come on this platform to speak about my journey my story and hopefully provide you know hope to other people that are going through a rough time is is kind of actually one of the main reasons that I'm here. That's so meaningful to me and thank you so, so much.

4:41I have been such an admirer of yours for a long time, as you probably know, because of my slightly creepy tendency to leave comments on your Instagram, to creep into your DMs, to be like, Louise, I'd love to meet you one day. And now we're here. It's all led us to this point. And your book is an extraordinary read. You should be so proud of it. It really did leave a lasting impact on me. Describe a little about how that awakening feels today. Well, thank you for reading it. And it's a really big moment for me and, you know, releasing the depths of what's happened to me in the memoir. I haven't really felt comfortable enough to go into all of the details of things for two years because it's taken me so long to kind of really come to terms with it.

5:30And there are still things that I have, like still questions unanswered. It's kind of an evolving process isn't it like seeing what you know that next chapter brings out in terms of like being able to help people and responding to the feedback and opening up more of the conversations out there around birth trauma and PTSD and the other like mental health conditions I've struggled with. There is a purity and a courage to your honesty is that something that happened as a consequence of everything that you went through or have you always been like that a truth teller? I can't lie. Like I have something in me and that's why I should never have been on a reality show.

6:08I actually can't lie and I can't act. I can, I only know how to be honest in myself and that's really hard because sometimes I don't want to have to show so much and I'm an incredibly emotional person too and sometimes I don't always want to have to be that vulnerable and that emotional. So it's always served me really well to be particularly honest. I feel that it's something you possibly share with your brother, Sam Thompson, also was on Made in Chelsea and then went on to win I'm a Celebrity. You're very close, aren't you? We are really close. We live next door to each other and we actually did renovations at the same time.

6:46We've now built a massive barricade between our houses but he still manages to peek through the like tiny slats in the trellis between the garden walls. We're quite close in age, two and a half years apart. We've had moments throughout our lives where we haven't been that close. I really didn't want him to join the TV show. I didn't think it would be good for him. I didn't think he had the stones for it. He's now way more confident than I am. He's so confident and I am still working on it. I mean, his career is completely skyrocketed. It's been hard over the last couple of years because our worlds have gone in completely different directions.

7:23You know, he has really grown. And my entire career basically crumbled. And my entire life crumbled. You know, and weirdly, actually, on the note of my brother, and I don't know why this is popping into my head, when I really nearly died and spent a month in hospital, when I came out, I felt like I had a different personality. Like I literally felt as though I was a completely different person. I couldn't remember anything about my old self. and hated a lot of what I stood for before. And I remember having a conversation with my mum. We were sat outside the pharmacy, like waiting to collect my medication before being discharged.

8:02And I said to her, like really seriously, I was like, Sam needs to stop everything he's doing. He needs to stop working. This is all terrible. Like he's going to end up where I've ended up. You know, we need to slow down and we need to stop all of the social media stuff. Like it's not good. It's all really, I don't know, like... Performative. Performative. And anyway, now as I've continued to get better, I've realised that I just shouldn't take anything in life quite that seriously to care so much about that. I can totally understand it because there you are, you've almost died and you thought with absolute certainty that you were going to die.

8:40And then to come out into this world that values superficial things must seem so disjointed. You are my favourite kind of guest in that you not only provided me with three failures, you provided me with six and each one was a banger. So I've chosen three from the six, but I hope to weave in the other three along the way. And so thank you so much for that and for committing yourself so seriously to the task in hand. Your first failure, as you describe it, is your failure to have a proper job. it's so embarrassing well tell us about that because you relate it to your made in chelsea years so how did you end up on that show because there you were you're a geography student at the university of edinburgh really talented student had gone to a great school and then suddenly you're made in chelsea how did that happen well it's a it's a good question and first of all i just want to say thank you for acknowledging the failures because i have loads of them but also a lot of people's failures stem from childhood and failing at school I was the total opposite so I was a complete nerd and a do-gooder and really a straight A student and always did really really well and that followed me through like into kind of into university and and I guess it all fell apart really when I started drinking and hanging out with boys and they became a priority and also then when I when I was asked to be on Maiden Chelsea so when I was at uni I guess I was probably on course to get a serious job when I left university because I would have got a degree and maybe ended up with a completely different career but I yeah I think I was in my third year and the show had just started so I did four years Edinburgh I might have been in my second year sort of halfway through Maiden Chelsea had started and I kind of had known a lot about it because my good friend Rosie who I was at school with ended up being on it and I dated Spencer and I was going out a lot with Hugo Millie and all of the kind of main cast I was going to say the A team so the show was split and really people used to call that I didn't say I this was not my doing Francis Bull I loved Francis the B team is now one of my best friends Binky so I shouldn't even say that but it was Jessica Binky and Ollie and so we were just split into two they obviously weren't the B team they probably got more airtime but yeah no I so I was I was friends with one of the friendship groups and then the producers really wanted me to join and I kept saying no because it was just not what I would ever wanted to do like I've never wanted to be famous I've never wanted to be on TV it was actually just me and Rosie with the two girls who didn't do drama out of our friendship group and because we couldn't get on stage and we just had it just wasn't for us so it was really weird that we ended up on the show I said no no no and I'd even been quite rude about the show because I thought it was a waste of education reality tv was such a a new concept I didn't really know anything about it and in the end I think I'd gone through quite a rough breakup up in Edinburgh and I was slightly ready to try something new and I just couldn't keep saying no and they they just kept framing it slightly differently so they obviously managed to twist my arm somehow.

11:59And they said, oh, well, just do it for one scene, like one episode, and then you never have to do it again, which would have been way worse, like as if that was a good selling point. Then I've associated myself with the show, and if I left off one episode, then that would just be terrible because I wouldn't have reaped any of the benefits. But I did end up doing it, and yeah, I came to London. And it was a funny old time for me because I was trying to be a serious student up in Edinburgh and had like cool friends up there that were all a bit more academics and studious and into different things.

12:33And then I was going to film on me in Chelsea where we were just filming in nightclubs and driving fast cars and that kind of thing. So 25 pounds a day, I was shocked to discover in your book. That was how much you were paid. Yeah, at the beginning it was 25 pounds a day. Then it went up to 50 after one series. and then after a while I was paid 200 pounds a day and that was capped at that so that was the absolute max and which is which is obviously you know not a lot than when you're expected to be driving a Ferrari and I would then spend all of my money on clothes just to wear to look semi-decent on the show.

13:15There's an amazing line in your book that I'm trying to find and it was about the fact that on Made in Chelsea, it was always the men who won. Yeah, I did feel like the men always came out on top, which is ridiculous because most of the people working on the show were female. They were celebrated for being naughty and for being mean and for playing us around. And, you know, I shouldn't, I should be more specific because it was a personal thing. I always felt as though I was fairly nice and treated people with respect. And yet I would end up looking really weak and like a doormat. And it's really odd that the nation seemed to always be backing someone that was horrible.

14:02Yes. And, you know, and it was really, it was tough. Everything was really real. And I was in some serious relationships on the show. And I would then end up, you know, going through a breakup, which is hard enough at the best of times. and I've never been good at breakups by the way I've always really struggled with change and kind of falling out of love with people and going through all of that is really tricky anyway and especially when you're in your late teens early 20s and that for that to be shown to the world is for people to have an opinion about is extra tough so I would go through these breakups I'd be genuinely really upset you know people would watch it and think that I was weak for crying which just doesn't make any sense to me and then you know you'd be like pitted against one of the other girls because your ex was then dating someone else and they might have been slimmer or taller or prettier or had a like a punchier like catch line you know they'd say they'd have they'd say something that was cool and I don't know it just it was it was really tough I'm so sorry you don't think it's terrible really the amount that reality tv is consumed as entertainment without value being ascribed to someone's lived experience that you are sharing on screen and i wonder you describe yourself as the ultimate people pleaser in your book um and that fear of rejection and wanting people to approve of you is all wrapped up in that and that must have been a very uncomfortable space to inhabit you must have really questioned your identity I did and I really struggled to grow up like a normal person would because I couldn't I was then basing my decisions on what other people would want from me and whether that was the the producers giving them what they wanted kind of being a bit of a nodding dog and just agreeing to say whatever they wanted or trying to second guess what the what the public would want from me and I couldn't be myself have you ever watched any of it back so we were forced we were forced careful with my words when um I was quite lucky that was one of the advantages of being at university really far away is that I wouldn't have to watch all of the I wouldn't have to go to the screenings so typically there would be a screening every Monday where all of the cast would have to watch the episode together yeah in the same room sorry and you because often I'm imagining that's the first time that people have seen other people on the cast talking about them in a certain way behind their back but it's on screen yeah yeah and you have no idea sometimes that someone's backstabbed you and said something awful about you and then you're confronted with them right in front of you and there are things that are better left unsaid and unknown and that was the weird thing about reality tv as you always know like especially for new people I remember them coming in they'd shoot their scenes and then they would we would watch it back and often people would run out crying wow but I I didn't really watch it and I wouldn't I wouldn't always have to go to those because I did have lectures on that on that day but then the people that I shared a flat with in Edinburgh um enjoyed watching it so we would joke about it like it's not all it's not all doom and And I thought you met your fiancé Ryan on the show, but you didn't.

17:24You brought him on. Is that right? Yeah. No, he never would have ended up on the show if it wasn't for me. He's really not that sort of person. I met Ryan when I was supposed to be running part of a tri... taking part in a virgin triathlon. And I didn't end up doing it in the end because I was... I hate running. It gives me so much anxiety. But I know I was going to be paid to do it. And I had to pull out a few days before. And I'd done all these interviews with running magazines, the full shebang. For the people teaser. That was terrible. Because I couldn't say no as well. I should have just said, running's not my bag.

18:02That's a no job for me. This is something I've done more recently. Yeah, and Ryan was tied up in that. So his sister-in-law was doing all of the PR for that. So we actually met through that. And I was in a relationship with someone else at the time. So nothing came from it. but then we did weirdly the the this is quite strange actually so the the day that me and Alec broke up oh my gosh Alec sorry I know I totally forgot about Alec I'm sorry I've literally watched every single episode of maybe Chelsea I'm sorry which I love yeah when Alec and I broke up weird I basically I woke up one morning and I knew something weird had happened between Alec and I I'd had this this kind of premonition dream that he cheated on me and I couldn't get hold of him for two weeks and that was very odd because I was supposed to move there and he he'd always been you know a relation the relationship was balanced I'm not going to say that he was more into me than I was him but he was very keen for us to have a future together and overnight that just completely changed so I sort of woke up one day and was like that's actually it's done like that this doesn't feel right I had a bit of a gut instinct and and I was then going out and telling everybody that we'd broken up without even really having the conversation with Alec himself at Uber drivers I was like this is done I've gone through a breakup and Ryan messaged me that day and I'd never heard from him I didn't even know he had my number because we'd met once he trained me for this the running with the running job and he said do you want to do you want to work out together And I thought, yeah, because I'm now single, so I'd like to feel good.

19:40Yes. This connection. Yeah. Was clearly something that was in the ether. So before we get onto your second failure, reflecting on the Made in Chelsea years, do you regret doing them? No. I have no idea where I would be if it wasn't for Made in Chelsea. I can't really visualize it. And it wouldn't be, it wouldn't necessarily be a better place. I'm really grateful for a lot of the things that it's offered me. An amazing platform, amazing career opportunities, an amazing experience and stories, really. It would be easier to do it now, knowing what I know and just being much stronger. Final question on this.

20:24Will you allow Leo, your son, to watch Made in Chelsea when he's old enough? yes there's a lesson on how not to live his life i love that

20:40this episode is brought to you by state farm checking off the boxes on your to-do list is a great feeling and when it comes to checking off coverage a state farm agent can help you choose an option that's right for you whether you prefer talking in person on the phone or using the award winning app. It's nice knowing you have help finding coverage that best fits your needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. At Sierra, discover great deals on top brand workout gear, like high quality walking shoes, which might lead to another discovery. 40 ,000 steps, baby! Who's on top now, Karen? You've taken the office step challenge a step too far.

21:20Don't worry, though. Sierra also has yoga gear. It might be a good place to find your zen. Discover top brands at unexpectedly low prices. Sierra, let's get moving.

21:36Talking of Leo brings us onto your second failure, which, as you put it, is your failure to advocate for yourself during his birth. So explain to us what happened. You found out you were pregnant, and your pregnancy wasn't easy in the sense that you had had a miscarriage before. I'm so sorry. And therefore, as is often the case, your pregnancy comes riven with anxiety because you're constantly worried that your baby won't make it. And you have this gut instinct that you needed a C-section. Take us from that moment.

22:19it's really actually quite strange because I looking back more recently actually wrote myself a message on a whatsapp group I have with myself which was actually created to kind of track how I was feeling throughout the pregnancy so symptoms kicks that sort of thing not necessarily that healthy but I was you know it wasn't obsessive but I was tracking a lot because of the anxiety following the miscarriage. And I'd written myself a note saying, I need to have a C-section or I'm really worried that I'm going to die. And I just can't believe that I wrote that. I'd always wanted a C-section. I wasn't somebody that ever felt particularly womanly.

23:04I've got the body of a 14-year-old boy and I don't feel bad about saying that. It's just the way that I am. I'm quite narrow, I'm very small. I didn't love the idea of giving birth naturally. I know people that love it. I know people that have home births, that some people pop them out like Smarties. I knew that it wasn't going to be right for me. I know my body and I really did struggle towards the end of the pregnancy. I felt incredibly heavy. I put on an awful lot of weight. The bump was enormous. I couldn't breathe. I couldn't sleep. I was in a lot of pain and I was having some fainting episodes I just I wish that I'd advocated for myself better so I you know you do have various appointments throughout the pregnancy at different milestones and I'd said to a number of midwives it was really tricky because I was speaking to a lot of different faces that didn't feel like there was an awful lot of consistency throughout the pregnancy but I'd mentioned it to a lot of different people I'd really like to have a c-section I think that this is the best option for me.

24:08I really don't feel good about having a natural birth. And then even to the point where I started looking for problems and I thought, oh, but I've got my inflammatory bowel disease. But I kept getting met with so much resistance. And then I started to feel like I was looked at with judgmental eyes that was sort of suggesting you're too posh to push and that this is a luxury. And the reality is, is it's not. It's actually a human right to choose the birth that you want, whether that's a home birth, a birth center birth, like a consultant at birth or a c-section. And I didn't know any of this. And actually, if anyone out there is listening, there is an amazing website called Birth Rights and their website is birthrights.org.uk.

24:48And they break it down for you on there. Things like you can choose your birthing partner. You can even choose the hospital. If you're not happy with a consultant, you can go to your GP and ask a request for someone else. It's such a sensitive and vulnerable time in a woman's life, especially that first birth when you have nothing to base this experience off it's a really sad sad story because the outcome could have been so different and I sit here today and I'm doing really quite well you know I'm 95 % really back to to me and and happy but that doesn't make up for the moments actually that I've that I've lost and that I will never get back.

25:33And it doesn't make up for the fact that I won't have any more children naturally. And I guess from the kind of the refusal with the C-section, I did write, I wrote emails that weren't responded to. I then was texting. I was involved in a house fire only a month before giving birth, which should be reason enough in itself because we didn't really have anywhere as a base like I just wanted to have control over some element of this of the childbirth and knowing where we were going to be and maybe what day it was going to be it kind of all fell on deaf ears and I was it was a game of pass the parcel and in the end I did speak to somebody on the phone and they were asking me the reasons for the anxiety and she said oh maybe you're not sleeping and tried to prescribe me some promethazine and that wasn't the point Like it wasn't, I wasn't, of course no one sleeps towards the end of the pregnancy or just don't feel great.

26:31It is, it's a lot to go through. And I was actually offered a C-section at a different hospital after my due date. And I went into labour on my due date, which is funny, but I knew that I was going to. And me and my brother were both born on our due dates. Before we get on to what happened during the birth, which do you mind talking about it? No, I really don't. Okay. Thank you for being so considerate though. I can't even imagine what it is like to relive when you retell the story. Before we get on to that, how much do you think the medical establishment doesn't listen to women? and is that to do with an intimidation that some of us might feel that doctors must know best?

27:23I mean there's definitely an element of white coat syndrome it's whenever you're faced with a medical professional often people become intimidated and kind of revert back to being a child again I've you know I would go into some of these appointments so kind of geared up with what I knew I wanted to say. And then the moment I would sit in that chair, I would just end up agreeing with everything that they had to say. Yeah. And assuming that they did know best. And I really struggled to speak up for myself to the point where I even then brought Ryan into an appointment and still like we couldn't get the answer that we wanted.

27:59I've done that repeatedly, by the way, from a different angle through fertility procedures. And whenever I tried to advocate for myself I would always undermine myself and yeah imagine that they knew best but then instead of feeling assertive I felt really emotional and started crying and then that would always undermine it further in the eyes of predominantly it was mostly men that I was dealing with in positions of power and I think that it is a hugely potent thing in this space and I'm so glad that you are talking about it I know so many people will relate it's funny what you say there it was not funny at all but it's thank you I'm so sorry about everything obviously you've been through absolutely horrendous time too and I and I try to be sensitive when even talking about my childbirth experience because you know I am very lucky and very grateful that I have that I have a beautiful son.

28:57But when I speak to the professionals in a similar way, I now feel like I have to, and it's something because I've spent so much time now in that environment, having had no experience before, never even stepped foot in a hospital before. You'd only taken paracetamol once, you said, for period pains. Yes. And now I'm really experienced. I've been in and out of the hospital every week, practically for the last couple of years. I've become much better at advocating for myself. So now I really do know what my rights are. And I know that I can question things, refuse things, ask for IV paracetamol versus the tablet form, because it's more effective for me.

29:36It's a very unique and personal experience, but also it's a bit more expensive. So the NHS don't necessarily want to give it to you. But when I speak to doctors, I'll often preface it with, I know that I know that I know very little and that you know everything. And I feel like I'm always having to justify my questions almost. Yes. And having to put myself down, even though I am pretty well researched now, especially some of the stuff that I deal with. That's not great. There's so much really to talk about in terms of what needs to change. Let's talk about the birth, which is one of the most visceral passages in your book.

30:17And I was very grateful for it because I've never read anything like that before. And I think it's so important to share the stories of births that are deeply traumatic to mitigate this kind of fairy tale idea of what it is to have a child. Louise, would you mind telling us what happened to you? so I went into labor on my due date and we went into the hospital and I think this is quite common is that people get sent home if they're not dilated enough I think that they only have a capacity for a certain number of women so that was challenging in itself and I was in an immense amount of pain actually from from the get-go because Leo was back to back so his spine was kind of grinding against mine and it was agony and I went and nothing really could have prepared me for that level of pain and I thought that I was quite a tough cookie I'm someone that at school would be like yeah yeah give me a Chinese burn and I just wasn't anticipating it at all and I'd written out my birth plan and I knew what I was okay with and what I wasn't but at the back of my head obviously I really wanted to c-section so I still you know I still was gunning for that And then when we did go back to the hospital, I was dilated enough to stay there.

31:38And unfortunately, it was an evening and it wasn't a weekend. And the hospital felt really dead. I hate to use that word when talking about a hospital. And I moved into a side room on the labor ward. And I just felt really, really unsupported. and because it was my first birth and the only you know I'd done kind of a hypnobirthing course quite last minute when I realized that I had like resigned my fate and I wasn't going to have the c-section I thought okay well I've just got to you know teach myself everything there is to know about a natural birth and I'd done the NHS NCT course which was all online over zoom and it was still slightly COVID-y rules but I didn't know you know to shout out and say oh please can I have the gas and air that's in that corner of the room you know I didn't know what was in the room that was an offer to me I was already in so much pain and I did see a bouncy ball I was bouncing on the ball and someone came in um the lady actually who had checked me in in in a different department and she came in after an hour or so and and and said why is no one why is no one telling you what to do like and you know and then even she was helping around saying can't get a get some water her on this towel put it on the back of her neck like that here are some options okay here's the gas and air she might need that do you need an epidural and and she really cared and that was the difference you know I hate to say this but it shouldn't be luck of the draw as to who you get and as to whether they care or not she I stayed in contact with her for a while afterwards even recovering she would come to my house that's how much she cared she was a beautiful beautiful soul a Spanish lady called Suzanne but she had to clock off it was the end of her shift and it was a tricky time then to be to be in in that position because of the changeover then I kind of endured an overnight labor experience that was really really grim and lots of things went wrong and I was really sick and blood pressure and then sepsis and temperatures and they um they broke my waters and there was myconium in in them but nothing was escalated and it got to the point where I was actually hallucinating I was really really freaked out and just not in a good place and every time there were a couple of junior doctors who would come in to check on me overnight and I was begging for a c-section I said I just this is please please please can I have that and it was sort of their mission to just convince me that things were okay and just to keep going I had sadly the epidural took many different people many different attempts to try and get it in and there's kind of a window of what's acceptable and I don't quote me on it but I think it's about 90 minutes from requesting one to receiving one because obviously if you're in that level of pain and you need pain management it's undignified not to have it and that was that was really horrendous And even after the epidural, I was still in an awful lot of pain.

34:38And yeah, and when I say it's kind of hallucinating, I mean, anything that then Ryan or someone around me would say, I could hear it played back. It was kind of echoing around the room. So mentally and physically, I was in a horrendous state. I couldn't even imagine at this point kind of getting to or visualizing what I needed to get to in terms of like being dilated. And then I suppose it was only then when there was a staff changeover again on the on the Monday morning when the consultant came in and and checked me. And, you know, and I I'm really honest, so I don't know how much I'll be really honest.

35:20And then, you know, yeah, I don't I don't want to just petrify people. But, you know, she she would put her she she put her whole arm inside me and try to twist the baby out manually. and it was really unpleasant and it wasn't working. So then she said, well, can we do the C-section? And I honestly was just, yes, yes, please, please can we do the C-section because I've been begging for this for months. And thank goodness, actually, that we're going to put an end to all of this. Whatever the resolution is, like, let's just, we need to try something else because this is not working. and so we went into theatre and it did feel frantic and I know people that have had more of an emergency situation in in this kind of stage if you like because perhaps the baby's heartbeat has stopped beating or there's a lot of fetal distress but it was everything moved very quickly and then when we were in the theatre my understanding was the c-section can be done in 20 minutes but tends to be around half an hour and is is I don't want to say a simple procedure because it is major surgery but it's something that's done all the time and I have lots of friends who have have done it and had an amazing experience with it can I just ask in the midst of that horror so that cesarean where you're you're you trying war gets torn like you're you start kind of bleeding out there is nothing between you there's not even a sheet in between there is yeah so there is a sheet so I can see the blood just splashing all over the sheet oh my god and Ryan is next to me so he's actually witnessing this all as well I genuinely was lying on this table paralyzed watching all of this blood splatter against this sheet with blood all over the floor as well, I could feel shaky hands pressing down really high up against my ribs.

37:22And there was just a complete state of panic in the room. And there wasn't once one person who looked at me and said, or touched my hand and went, it's going to be okay. I didn't have that single, I didn't have that friendly face. And I have to say since then, because I've had a number of surgeries since then, and and I have met those people at the hospital and I've had some amazing experiences with people who have an incredible bedside manner and who have made all the difference but in that in that moment I really really could have done with with somebody popping their head over the curtain and just filling us in with what was going on because we had no idea and and then there was the kind of um one of the hardest parts was the kind of false finish if you like I because I I really thought that I couldn't stay alive for much longer.