Mae Martin - 'Everything I do is about proving those high school bullies wrong.'

0:00Hello, lovely How to Fail listeners and viewers. This is just to let you know that if you want a peek behind the curtain to find out the last time that Kate Winslet spoke to Leo or how much sex Vogue Williams considers to be normal, then you can listen to my subscriber series. Just follow the link in the show notes and we will see you there.

0:29Welcome to How to Fail. And for those that are new around here, this is the podcast where I talk to my guests about three failures in their life and what they've learned along the way. Please do follow this podcast because it really helps other people find us. And please do share it with all of your friends and family members and even people you don't like. We're not fussy. Thank you so much for being here. And you think you've outgrown it and you're so above it all. And then you notice that your recent searches on Instagram of people's profiles are all your enemies and your exes. You're like, why am I still looking at these people?

1:01I sort of didn't realize that most of my life, every time someone said she, which is a thousand times a day, probably 2 ,000, it's like someone pointing out the thing about yourself that makes you feel confused or uncomfortable so it's like like if you were balding and someone every day was like bald bald bald bald you know it's just nice to have a break from it like I don't really feel safe in a men's bathroom but I don't particularly want to be in the women's change room either so yeah I'm like I get it I don't know either

1:36This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Checking off the boxes on your to-do list is a great feeling. And when it comes to checking off coverage, a State Farm agent can help you choose an option that's right for you. Whether you prefer talking in person, on the phone, or using the award-winning app, it's nice knowing you have help finding coverage that best fits your needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. My guest today is Mae Martin, an award-winning comedian, producer, actor, podcast host, and singer-songwriter. They were born in Toronto, Canada, the younger child of former hippies Wendy and James, who raised their children in a home filled with the recordings of British and American comedy classics.

2:22Martin saw their first comedy show aged 11 and, in their words, felt absolutely on fire. Dropping out of high school, they started on the stand-up circuit as a teenager before moving to the UK in their 20s, eventually co-creating and starring in the semi-autobiographical Netflix show Feel Good. Martin's stand-up tours, Us in 2015 about sex and gender identity, and Dope in 2017 about addiction, were both turned into BBC radio shows. Now they're set to showrun and star in a forthcoming Netflix thriller series Wayward alongside promoting their first ever album I'm a TV. The album entirely written by them is an indie rock expression of millennial nostalgia and a total delight to listen to.

3:13A comedian, a writer and now a musician, Martin is a creative powerhouse. If there is one thing that connects all of their work, It is perhaps an acceptance that creativity and self-fulfillment comes in many forms, a desire for us to be given space to figure things out, and a generosity of spirit that enables Martin's audience to see ourselves in their art. I'm a big advocate of ambiguity, Martin has said in the past, of the idea that not knowing is fine. May Martin, welcome to How to Fail. Thank you for having me. I've been looking forward to this so much. So have I. And thank you for being here because I know that you are fresh off the stage.

4:00Yeah, I'm a little ropey. Yeah, I feel underdressed and underslept. No, you're perfect. Thank you. So are you. And I wanted to ask you about that idea of ambiguity because it's something that I have only recently understood underpins great creativity. That idea that the void is fertile, that confusion can actually be so creative. Yes. Does that resonate with you? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And I think maybe not being attached to a particular outcome and being more open to the process, maybe. And I just find in general in life, there's so much nuance and gray area and things aren't as black and white as it's tempting to make them.

4:48We're so desperate to do that for our brains, to organize things properly and know where we stand on everything. But it's hard to. Let's talk about I'm a TV. Sure. Does it feel particularly vulnerable sharing your music in this way for the first time? I do have real imposter syndrome about it. I think my biggest fear is the opinions of my peers and musicians because it's really new for me. and I feel like I'm learning a whole new language. But I made the album not intending to release it and I think that was really helpful because I just did it as a, I've always wanted to go into a studio with friends and I'd been writing by myself and so I did it kind of as a passion project and then when it felt like it was a cohesive thing and it felt like it was authentically me, then I thought I may as well put it out, yeah.

5:44And how does performing music differ from performing stand-up? I thought there would be a lot more crossover because I've been doing stand-up 25 years. I thought it'll be fine, but it's hugely different. Yeah, it's a totally different energetic exchange with the audience. And I'm so used to, I mean, my comedy is quite personal and confessional. but if you're going to take people to a an emotional place with comedy you have to trust that you're going to be able to bring them out of it and break the tension you know and undercut it or self-deprecate and so there's it's nice to not have to do that and to let people sit in that tension and people seem really hungry for it to go to that emotional place so that's been really nice and there's so much tech there's like pedal boards and in your, so I'm learning all that.

6:38It's crazy. I want to do that annoying thing. Please. Okay, great. The interviews tend to do where they listen to music and to lyrics and then they ask you directly whether it pertains to your actual life. Great. So one of my favorite, actually, I love Big Bear. Oh, great. I love that track because I've never been to Big Bear and maybe wanted to go. Oh man, it's beautiful there. Yeah. The song I Love You So Much. Yeah. which is about throwing a bomb into the life of a married woman. Mae Martin, have you done that? No, not a married woman. I think for me, that song, hopefully it's relatable, is about, well, you were talking about ambiguity.

7:19And I always think about, I mean, I'm a very romantic person. And I think it's crazy that we categorize all our relationships into platonic or romantic, because there is so much gray area. At least for me, I have lots of friends who you think, like, oh, maybe in another life this would have been a thing or, you know, you can be sort of in love with your friends. So it's about, it's kind of about that. Okay. Yeah. Then People Get Back Up. Yeah. Which is one of the most moving tracks. That's one of the most directly personal, isn't it? Like the lyrics kind of, yeah. Yes. Well, if it is, then I'm really sorry for your loss.

7:57Thanks. Because it's about a friend who, reading between the lines, took his own life. Yeah, yeah. I've had a couple of, I worry a lot about my straight male friends mainly and men's mental health. And I have, just because that's been my experience, I've had a couple of friends, yeah, who've really struggled and taken their lives. So yeah, that one was about my friend Jesse. And then I had a really close friend, David. And it's a nice one to play live because people really, those moments where you really feel people, you know, settle into it. Yeah. Can I ask you a bit more about why you worry about your straight male friends?

8:34Only because when I first started this podcast in 2018, almost every straight man that I approached to be part of the first season said, I don't think I failed. Are you serious? Yeah, totally serious. Wow. But that's part of the problem because they're bottling it all up. Because of course they have. And they're terrified of failing. I'm making huge generalizations, but I just have a lot of, I mean, most of my best friends are straight men. I don't know if that's because I've been in the comedy scene for so long, but yeah, I definitely recognize that cultural pressure to not open up and the stigma around men being soft and sweet.

9:17Yeah, I empathize. I'm sure that you offer them the space that they need. Give them a cuddle. Yes, definitely. Final question before we get on to your failures. You love escape rooms. Talk to me. Okay. Yes. It's all I love. That's so interesting because I find them panic inducing. Oh, really? Okay. And I think it's because my default for many years was to attempt to be a perfectionist people pleaser. Right. So there's so much pressure that I put on myself. To beat the record and get out. And yeah. And I'm terrible at them. And I find that difficult to cope with. I'm not great at them, but I do them obsessively.

9:54I think I've done, I've been in LA three years and I just, I have an app where you mark the ones you've done and I've done over 50 in three years I'm so into it I don't know if that's a red flag about my personality but I find it really gratifying that you have one clear task escape the room you know and and life goes on pause and you can just it's very linear I really like it I like any kind of immersive experience even immersive theater yeah wow I love it okay I'm doing one on um on Saturday I'm doing I hate saying the name of it I'm doing you yes you bum bum yes and I hate saying it but that is actually meant to be amazing and life-changing that's what I hear yeah okay your first failure is failing out of high school yeah so tell us about this it's like we were saying about being attached to a certain outcome I mean school is a really, there's a really clear track, you know, it's pass and fail.

10:52And, uh, I always struggled. I, I never, I remember just sitting even in primary school and watching the clock and feeling like my life was slipping away and being like, this is torture. I don't, and I would always ask to go pee during every class and then just milk the time and walk around really slowly in the halls. And, and then, yeah, in high school, um, I, well, I discovered comedy first of all, and I started doing gigs a lot of nights a week. And so I was very tired. And yeah, I got, I remember getting like 13 % in math one year and it just slowly started to, yeah, become impossible. So then I sort of dropped out, but I would have failed out imminently, I think.

11:38And it was, yeah, it was daunting because I didn't have, there aren't a lot of models of what that looks It felt really seismic in the moment. Tell me a little bit about your childhood up to that point, because I noticed there were two points in the introduction where you laughed in a sweet way. And one of them was when I described your parents as former hippies. Well, they, yeah, they're very creative people. And I guess it was because of them that I thought maybe there was an option to do unorthodox things or to take a different route. And my dad's a freelance writer and my mom is really creative as well.

12:21And so they would do wild things like put all our stuff in storage and we'd go on a six month driving trip across Europe and things like that when I was a kid and take us out of school. And that set me up to kind of, yeah, make my own path. But they were definitely pissed when I got into comedy and I got heavily into drugs in my teens. And that was a big part of why school was not as fun. I want to come back to that. Sure, sure. The road trips across Europe. Obviously, there's part of me that I'm listening where I'm thinking, oh, how amazing. And there's also part of me which thinks, is that really dislocating?

12:58I mean, literally. Maybe. I mean, I don't remember that. I was four and my brother was eight. Or maybe I was five. And I remember it really just being incredible. And we were in this little Honda and just the four of us. And yeah, I probably learned more on that trip than I did in school, you know. Yeah, but they were spontaneous. And so maybe there was a bit of chaos there. But I liked that. I remember my mom, I always felt like there were some mornings where I'd wake up and say, I just really don't want to go to school. And she'd say, OK, let's go do something fun. And I really respect that.

13:37So was it a creative household where you were encouraged to express your creativity as well? Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. What's the earliest thing that you can remember making? Well, I used to, as a kid, play music with my dad a lot. I remember making tape recordings of us doing duets to Bette Midler songs and things like that. And he was, my dad used to be an actor and he was in Jesus Christ Superstar and things. And so they had a really deep appreciation for the arts and things like that. I'm really aware of my privilege in that area and that they would take me to museums and talk to me. And I'm super lucky.

14:14And they took you to your first ever stand up comedy show at age 11. What was it about that experience that hit you so deeply? I was already obsessed. I guess they had been playing a lot of vinyl records in the house of George Carlin and Steve Martin. and I was sort of bewitched by it. And I begged to go for years. And then finally on my 11th birthday, I went and it was just a really, I felt like that must be the coolest life on earth. And I was more interested in like the green room activities, what was going on with these people and were they all dating each other and were they staying after the show and talking and making each other laugh.

14:57And I wanted to be part of that community, I think. And I was all dressed up in the front row and the headliner got me on stage because everyone was commenting that there was a child there. This is when you could smoke inside too. So it was a really adult environment and I just loved it. Yeah. What were you wearing? I was wearing tartan trousers, Elizabeth, and a suede vest and a little button-up shirt and I had short hair and I looked like a ventriloquist dummy. And so that's what he did he made me his ventriloquist dummy and and I got a laugh and I loved it yes that must have felt incredible it really did yeah I read somewhere that you said about that show I just couldn't believe there was this environment where people were being applauded for the weirdest things about themselves yes yeah I think I I always felt like a bit of a misfit and I'm sure and I think we'll get into it that but um yeah I really liked how people would get up and and make fun of themselves in a way that at school you know if someone said something like that to you you'd be crushed but if you say it first to an audience and get a laugh and take ownership of it that's so empowering and it's just completely twists everything especially during puberty for me and I had braces and acne and I don't know what possessed me to get on stage, but it really helped, yeah.

16:23So school, by contrast, was not a place where you felt welcome or included, I guess. Yeah, I went to grade one to nine. I went to an all-girls school and I just felt like another species to everyone. And I felt like everyone had been born knowing what lip gloss to wear and what stationery to use. and I was just trying to catch up and fit in and then went to high school and didn't really do sports or anything like that. So yeah, I was confused. So were you bullied? Not really. Around puberty, there was one year and then I got in trouble because I use people's full names in stand-up sometimes and then I get in trouble.

17:05But I talked about being bullied by someone and then And I remember them calling me into the, because maybe I was 15 or 14 and used this girl's name on television. And then they had a big meeting at the school about it. And I thought, I've got to stop using full names. Yeah, but not really heavily bullied. It was just around puberty. That's kind of amazing revenge though. It is. It is. I mean, there's an aspect of everything I do that's about proving those high school bullies wrong, you know. Me too. Don't you think? 100 % I know and you think you've outgrown it and you're so above it all and then you notice that your recent searches on Instagram of people's profiles are all your enemies and your exes you're like why am I still looking at these people but fuel is fuel fuel is fuel you know yeah it's great that grudge will fuel me for a lifetime 100 % yeah do you hold grudges?

17:58yes I do I think but I'm trying not to okay yeah I massively do do you? just a warning Just a warning sign to you, mate. I won't cross you ever. Okay. Talk to me about the drugs, okay? And treat me like a total ignoramus because I am one. Okay. The only drug I've ever taken other than port is MDMA once. Okay. And what I loved about it was that it kept me awake. Right. 7 a.m. I was loving life. Really? Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. How did you get into drugs and what were they like for you? well now retrospectively I can see I was looking for a kind of trap door out of the discomfort of being in my body and my brain but um at the time I I started smoking weed with regular kids at school and then as soon as I started doing comedy I was in a really adult environment and at that time in Toronto there was a lot of coke around I don't know if there is now I hope not.

18:59But yeah, I started doing, I was dating a much older guy and trying to be cool. And, and yeah, stimulants were really, I mean, I think now I'm like, I think I have ADHD and I've read a lot about how often people self-medicate with stimulants and it kind of puts you in the room and you suddenly feel like your feet are on the ground. And so maybe that was an aspect of it but um I really yeah it got quite dark yeah how dark like I really dark particularly with with cocaine I think it's such a an insidious and powerful uh drug and I just was so little and I it made me feel so confident and must have been giving me something that I wasn't feeling in my regular life.

19:51But yeah, it really sort of, that drug in particular, I think, can really warp your everything, your moral compass, everything just becomes the priority in life. And so, yeah, everything was about that. And I had disposable income because of comedy. And I think no 15 year old should have cash. It's not good. But then I went to rehab for nine months and when I was about 19 and and yeah it was pretty amazing that experience yeah between 15 and 19 was there anyone who stepped in and questioned what you were doing and sought to protect you yeah in their in their ways I think I mean it was the early 2000s I think there was a lot less fluency around mental health and a lot more focus on the the drug itself and and like it must be just pure hedonism that's driving you to do this and um and so I think yeah there's a lot of tough love and you know I sort of got kicked out or left home when I was about 16 and I think maybe it would be different now but yeah so there are different tactics but But really, anyone with an addiction problem, I think it has to come from you, ultimately.

21:15How are things with your parents now? It sounds like you have a really good relationship. I love them so much. It's great. Yeah, we're really, really close now. I mean, they live in Canada and I'm in LA, but we talk all the time. And yeah, I think we both have a lot of empathy. You mentioned that you think you have ADHD. Yeah. Have you ever gone through the process of diagnosis? I have, and I've been diagnosed with it. I don't know why I'm sheepish about it. I think it's because I, how old are you? 36. Are you? Okay. So did you, like growing up, it was kind of, my parents didn't think it was real and it was kind of like bad parenting was what we thought.

21:54And it was really, it felt like a made up thing. And so, yeah, I do have it and I've been diagnosed, but I don't know. I always feel like, did I just trick the doctor into diagnosing me? I think a lot of people have that fear. That's what he said. The doctor said, I'm sure you think you've tricked me into diagnosing you. I was like, yeah, I do. How interesting. Given your history with substance abuse, are you medicated for ADHD or is that something that... I am a bit. Yeah, it's been pretty life-changing. Yeah. And in a way, it's kind of eradicated any lingering urge to seek out a stimulant because it's really measured.

22:39And yeah, that part of my brain is satisfied, I guess. Right. Yeah. And escape rooms. But I'm wary of it. I know it's easy to become dependent on it. And I definitely know people, especially in the States, who are really over medicated. And yeah, so I'm careful with it. Well, I know that the definition of addiction you prefer is the Gabor Mate, former guest on How to Fail. Was he? Yes. What a guy. I know. Incredible. Sonorous voice. And he's a real presence, isn't he? Yes. Would you mind reminding us what that definition is? Sure. If I can remember it. Well, he says an addiction is anything that you crave and you do compulsively despite it having negative consequences.

23:22So it's about that, those negative consequences in your life. Yeah. And I think he and he also says that it's totally spot on. Oh, is it? Just given everything we've been talking about, he also says it can be a trauma response. Right. Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah. I mean, yeah. And his work has been so mind expanding for me because it was the first time that I connected other addictive behaviors in my life. And I really thought that addiction was just something that drug addicts had. And it was all to do with these very addictive substances. And, you know, that once you're hooked, you're hooked. And then when I broadened the definition and thought about, you know, relationships.

24:07And so many of us have had that experience where you know someone's bad for you or that you're not happy. But you can't stop fighting for it to, you know, or texting them or our phones. or all these self-soothing behaviors that we all do, that was really helpful for me to see that and notice it in other areas and take a more holistic look at my life. You use a lot of this hard-won wisdom in Feel Good. Yeah. Which I loved. Thanks. I know so many people who listen are huge fans of it as well. Oh, great. And there's one scene that always sticks in my mind and makes me laugh still thinking about it.

24:47Hit me. Where the character has gone to an NA meeting and decided it's not for them. Yeah. And then goes with someone who becomes their sponsor to a coffee shop. Yes. And it's just such a tiny thing. But in the backdrop, you see at the end of the scene, there's like 800 coffee cups. Thank you for noticing that. Oh, I loved it so much. Oh, that's so nice. Oh, thanks for noticing. I suppose I had a question about feel good, which is how much co-creating that with Joe Hampson was helpful to you in discovering yourself? So much of it. And similar to the album, maybe writing that first season, I'd never made television.

25:31I'd never acted before. And so I wrote it not worrying about any of that and not thinking, oh, I have to actually act these scenes. I just wrote it not knowing what it would be like. And then it was quite harrowing in a really rewarding way, but it was so personal. And so, yeah, it was definitely therapeutic. And I was sort of writing this character of myself who was really struggling with gender identity and things like that. And then the first season ended and we knew we were doing the second season that would be the last season. And we knew, OK, we've got to tie this up. And so I guess the characters should come to some conclusion about who they are and their addiction.

26:14And then that made me have to really introspect and think, OK, yeah, how do I feel? Yeah, I was really figuring it out in real time. And the interesting thing is, is that I know that in TV, you are constantly encouraged to have a satisfying narrative arc with a very definite end point. Right. But of course, that is not your life. No, I wish it was to tie everything up neatly like that. Yeah. The thing that did change was the pronouns of the character between the first and the second season. Yeah. And again, literally in real time, telling the crew on set, actually, that would be nice if you guys would, like it was really happening.

26:54And I was so lucky to be making it with Charlotte Ritchie, who is a friend. And she was just so, such an amazing support emotionally in a way that she probably shouldn't have had to be, you know, just as a co-star. But she was, we did a lot of talking and processing and it was really, really nice. At Sierra, discover top workout gear at incredible prices, which might lead to another discovery. Your headphones haven't been connected this whole time. Awkward. Discover top brands at unexpectedly low prices. Sierra, let's get moving. Race the rudders. Raise the sails. Raise the sails. Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching.

27:36Over. Roger. Wait. Is that an enterprise sails solution? Reach sails professionals, not professional sailors. With LinkedIn ads, you can target the right people by industry, job title and more. Start converting your B2B audience today. Spend$250 on your first campaign and get a free$250 credit for the next one. Get started today at linkedin.com slash campaign. Terms and conditions apply. That brings us on to your second failure. Yes, yeah. I am so glad you're going to talk about this and you put it in this way. Failing at being a boy or a girl. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's a line in Feel Good as well.

28:16In season one, I said, and I felt that way and do sometimes still feel that way. Because I'm non-binary and I feel really in the middle of that gender spectrum. And so because we live in such a gendered binary society that's been so built around those things, of course, I grew up feeling like I was, yeah, failing at being a girl and failing at being a boy until I was 35 or something. It felt like a huge failure going on in the back of my head. You say 35, you're now 37. Yeah. So you had two years of having figured most of it out, would that be fair enough to say? Yeah, I think it's an evolving thing, but yeah.

29:04How does that feel? How have the last two years felt? Just amazing. It's really nice to be able to, I mean, sometimes I think, oh, would it be more helpful not to talk about these things? Because it's not the most interesting thing about me. But then in today's climate with everything going on in the States, it feels like a really nice and concrete thing I can point to that I am just so much happier. And like this album, for instance, I don't think I would have had the confidence to be vulnerable like that and stand on stage, even physically being taking up that space and being seen like that.

29:46So now that I feel like, yeah, I'm presenting the way I have always felt, it's just been, it's just a very happy, positive thing. So it's nice to highlight, like, that's really the only agenda that's being pushed here is people just being, being happier. I love and appreciate and respect that you're talking about it. Thank you. I get asked a lot to go on like the news and debate a Republican about whether trans people are real. Yeah, exactly. And so I try to stay out of combat of things like that. But it is not. Yeah, I think it's important to talk about. You've described feeling like a misfit at school.