Mel B - ‘I was a Spice Girl shouting about girl power, but I was girl powerless.’

0:26Race the rudders!

0:40hello and welcome to how to fail with me author and broadcaster elizabeth day this is the podcast where we flip the traditional interview format on its head celebrating failure rather than success because what we learn from the former is often far more important than anything that comes from the latter. It's how we respond to failure that defines our character and helps us grow. Every episode, I ask a very special guest to discuss three failures and how they emerged on the other side to be the person we see today. Before we get into my interview with Mel B, I'm excited to tell you that you can join me afterwards at Failing With Friends, my subscriber series, where I continue my conversation with her.

1:24This week, Melanie and I go through failures to communicate with flirty friends and building confidence when getting back to work after having kids. I can't wait for you to join us. And I'd love to hear from you. If you'd like to get in touch, follow the link in the podcast notes. When Melanie Brown was 18, her mum showed her an advert from the stage newspaper asking for streetwise, outgoing, ambitious, dedicated girls to audition for an all-female pop act. She answered the advert and the rest is history. The Spice Girls became the best-selling female pop group of all time, shifting over 100 million records worldwide and launching the girl power movement.

2:09Mel B, or Scary Spice as she became known, went on to forge a solo career and then established herself as a TV personality and talent show judge. She came second in Dancing with the Stars in 2007, judged the UK X Factor and has just announced her return to America's Got Talent. But it's her personal life that over recent years has made headlines. In her 2018 memoir, Brutally Honest, recently re-released with extra chapters, she revealed her second marriage had been emotionally and physically abusive. Her bravery in speaking openly about the 10 years of coercive control she experienced has been a revelation for many other survivors and has done much to raise public awareness of the issue.

2:56She is now a patron of the domestic violence charity Women's Aid and has been awarded an MBE for her work. Silence and secrecy just add to our burdens, Brown writes. It's hard when you are proud, when you are frightened, when there are expectations on you to not rock the boat, but we need to be able to say, I'm in trouble, I need help. Melanie Brown, welcome to How to Fail. God, I haven't got any words now. I was like, wow, is she talking about me? Yes, she is. That's you and what an incredible person you are. I'm grateful to you for so many reasons. I'm grateful to you for being a Spice Girl and for introducing the teenage me to girl power.

3:44I'm grateful to you for writing this astonishing memoir. I can't even imagine the courage it took. and I have not experienced the depths of what you lived through but I do have experience of coercive control and I know how difficult it is to put words to it. Yeah, and even the word coercive control, it was so hard for me to wrap my head around what does that mean? I'm a bit dyslexic so I was like I can't even read that properly but then when I found out it became the law in 2015 and you can actually file a complaint against your abuser and hopefully it will see the light of day. I was like, right, we are moving in the right direction.

4:26But that was 2015 and I was still in my then 10-year very abusive marriage, which when I talk about it, I didn't realise there was such an epidemic going on. I thought bringing this book out in 2018 was going to end my career because for a start nobody wanted to publish it because the topic was too down and dirty and gritty and taboo-ish. and I actually wanted to pull it before it even got released and it was only because my daughter, who was then, gosh, 19, and Louisa helped me write the book, were like, well, just think about it. If you're going to be talking about this, maybe you can help somebody else.

5:04So by releasing this book, you could be helping a lot of other people. And I was like, right, if it's for other people, yes, but that book was for me because I didn't understand what had gone on in those 10 years. I knew it wasn't right. I knew it left me fried as in I was living on flight or fight. I knew because of the obvious bruises. And then when I left, I was financially abused. And the reason why I've re-released it with three new extra chapters because in between 2018 and 2024, a lot has happened. You know, everybody thinks when you leave an abusive relationship, well, well done for getting out for a start because not all of us survive it.

5:45you don't realise then you have to start a new journey which is putting you as a person and your life and your kids and amending relationships with people that have been isolated from you you have to work on that and that's not easy it's not easy staying in an abusive relationship clearly but it's also not easy coming out of it and I wanted to be able to show survivors like me that you can do it and it is going to be up and down but this is the warning sign and hopefully a bit of a guide on how to deal with it because you are left traumatised and I'm a Spice Girl and I shout about girl power yet I was in 2018 girl powerless thinking what where the last 10 years gone why has this person got so much control I can't even leave if I want to leave so it's been a bit of a roller coaster.

6:37One of the things that I saw on your Instagram recently is that you have been able to buy a house and that has been something because you left that marriage with$936 in your bank account I think your book said with nothing with nothing no house no properties no cars no furniture no credit card no nothing so I had to move back in into my mum's house she's got a little bungalow in Leeds so I was doing Wembley stadium with the Spice Girls in 2019 performing in front of thousands of people in my element back with my girls and then going home to Leeds in my mum's spare bedroom with my kids and my dog going this is my life and I love it now because I know what I'm coming home to my mum and my dogs and it's not my house and I'm gonna have to start from scratch where do I start you know because I I doubted myself.

7:31I had no confidence. Luckily, the Spice Girls tour came around at the perfect time. But what led me to that place was, unfortunately, if it wasn't for my dad dying, I don't know if I would have left that marriage because I didn't have the strength to do it. I tried to do it six or seven times within those 10 years, but I always got pulled back, whether it be through blackmail or the fact that I can't leave without my kids. so I did try and it wasn't until my dad died him taking his last breath did I promise my dad in Leeds because he died in Leeds I said when I get back to LA I'm going to leave that abuser and he took his last breath so I was like well I don't even know if I would have had the strength to do it myself my dad gave me that strength and now I'm giving myself strength through speaking to other survivors from being involved in women's aid being patron and being able to educate not just myself but kids about what the warning signs look like and how I get to speak in parliament and it's something that is you know every every time I do talk about it it does still take me back there but I think well you have to talk about it because it's an epidemic that's going nowhere still one woman a week gets killed by their partner in this country it's worse in America so it's not going anywhere unless we not just talk about it but we do something about it We rebuild the justice system to be more supportive, even just to know that you are being abused.

9:00Because I didn't know how badly abused I had been. Obviously, there's the physical side of it, but the emotional side and the trauma. And thank God in this country, we have stature of limitations. So there's no time frame on when you can report that. In the States, you have three years. And if you're not ready to report it in three years, that time is gone. Because that's one of the things that really strikes me as so courageous. Writing this book, were you scared about putting that out there and your ex reading it and being in touch? Well, he's in touch anyway, because an abuser on some levels don't stop.

9:42And especially when you have a child with them, which I do. I wasn't scared for me necessarily. I was scared that I wasn't going to be able to provide for my family anymore because I was lying for 10 years. I was lying to my co-workers. I was lying to the Spines Girls. I was lying to Simon Cowell because my work was my saviour because that was the one place where he couldn't get me. But when I went home, it was a different story. Yet I was so ashamed and I felt riddled with guilt that how can I? Nobody's going to believe me. I haven't been to the doctors because I'm too scared to even tell the doctor because I can cover the bruises.

10:19I can cover it with makeup. And, you know, I'm girl power. I can't let the side down. But it was almost like a relief to get my story out, but also terrifying at the same time. and what came back at me was probably for me even more terrifying than my career being ended. It was the fact that I was believed. It's true then. I know I have been abused. It's such a psychological thing. Yeah, how interesting. And then when I went to my first refuge in Leeds as patron of Women's Aid, I sat with these women and I just felt so at home because I don't know if you know much about abuse, But basically abusers do the same thing at the same time, no matter who they're abusing.

11:07They come in like Mr. Wonderful or Mrs. Wonderful and you can't believe your eyes that this person is just everything and more that you've ever wished for. You are just in shock and you are love bombed. You are just crazy head over heels. And, you know, I was saying the other day, it's not like you wake up and go, oh, I think I want to date an abuser. No, but what an abuser does is they come and find you, so they make sure that you are going to date them. And I just had Angel, so I was very vulnerable. Yeah, and Angel is your daughter with Eddie Murphy, who you describe, in Briefly Honest, as the love of your life.

11:40And I think you do such a beautiful job of explaining that. Well, me and Eddie went through a beautiful love affair, but then Angel was born and there was things that were said on his part and my part. It became a media frenzy. And I was adamant, listen, you have denied that you're the father. I mean, it goes on and on and on. But basically, Angel was made with love. And Eddie is very much part of Angel's life. And that is happy in that respect. You said in an interview in 2023 that you wouldn't call the police. Is that still the case? No, because I'm now working alongside my police, actually.

12:16And they are fully taking it on board that when they get called out to a domestic violence situation, that they're now going to be, they're now going to have themselves educated. Because if you turn up, I mean, the police have said this, they turn up at a domestic violence situation. Sometimes the abuser is so skilled that the abuser ends up not being the one that gets taken away in handcuffs. and because the survivor is so embarrassed and so worried about what's going to happen when that door slams that she or he will do anything just to make it go away when the initial thought is this person's going to kill me.

12:51Horrendous. And we will talk more about it before we get onto your failures. I hope you'll indulge me by answering a couple of questions about the Spice Girls. Of course I will. It's my favourite topic. Thank you. Because I was telling you before we started recording that you're my third Spice Girl. My ambition is to get all five of you. so if you could put in a good word so who do you have left you have got victoria and emma emma and i did actually sit next to victoria at lunch and she said she'd come on the podcast well then you have to hold her to it when i see an excel teller can you i will and i'll tell you it's very decadent in here so she'll love it yes thank you um loved her love you all but you were so formative for so many women like me and it's it's so weird now to think of you as women but you are you've all aged in this really extraordinary power point.

13:38You haven't aged a job to look at. Oh, I haven't, but I still wear the same thing. For anyone listening to this podcast, rather than watching on YouTube, you are wearing amazing silver boots and like this fur, fake fur jacket. Do you think that the five of you have changed fundamentally as characters as you've grown older, or do you think you're still the same? I think we're still the same. And I just want to be clear, when those names got given to us, it was by, I think it was a lazy, journalist from some teeny bopper magazine and he couldn't be bothered to remember our full names so he was like well that one looks a bit scary because she's already snatched my notes off her and she's got all me and I've got all this crazy hair and I've always been I've got leopard print nails so he just named us off the rack like that and we were all like oh god I quite like my name it's funny because to this day Emma loves pink and if she can have her way she'd put her hair in ponytails Mel C will never get out of a tracksuit and she always has her hair in a ponytail So Victoria's very sleek and elegant.

14:36Geri, she's gone through a bit of a change, but she's still that vivacious Union Jack girl underneath her being the lady of the manor, let me tell you. So we're all exactly the same, which is lovely, considering we started when we were 17, 18, 19, and we're now 48, 49, 50. How do you feel about Scary Spice now, though? Because I feel like you wouldn't be called that now. Well, I think now we're a bit too politically correct. I've calmed down in these last few years. Before, if you was to interview me, I'd be like, show me your questions. I'd be the protector of the group that comes in there and go, hold on a minute.

15:12And that can be seen as maybe being a bit too northern or maybe being a bit too feisty or scary. So that name was given, and I love it, just for the plain fact that I'm a bit scary and I've got larger than large hair, larger than life. And that's just me. Well, in this day and age, somebody would have taken offence by that, But I don't take offense by it. Whether you're black, white, there's a bit of scary in all of us.

16:01your needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. At Sierra, discover top workout gear at incredible prices, which might lead to another discovery. Your headphones haven't been connected this whole time. Awkward. Discover top brands at unexpectedly low prices. Sierra, let's get moving.

16:28love that let's get on to your first failure because it's sort of linked to what we've just been discussing which is a failed audition for being a von trap child in a production of the sound of music yeah i remember this very very well i got raised in a household my dad's black from the West Indies, from Nevis. My mum's white, born and raised up north in Leeds. So they're a mixed couple, which back in those days, there was a lot of stigma attached to that. There was a lot of NF, National Front. For example, my mum used to have to hand me to my dad on the bus so that he wouldn't get beaten up for being black and black with a white woman.

17:06So I got brought up with a very even outlook. I'm not black, I'm not white, I'm mixed. and I love that because I had friends before at school that were mixed and I couldn't understand why they'd just call themselves black or just call themselves just white. I'd be like, yeah, but you're mixed. That's your mum and your dad. You've got the best of both worlds. Just quickly, what do you think of the term biracial? I don't get it. Okay. I don't get it and I don't appreciate it. Good to know. Yeah. Because some people hate being called mixed. It used to really annoy me that when I used to fill out the passport form, it would be black, white or other.

17:43Now it's black, white, mixed with this, mixed with that, this and that. And I think, no, I'm just mixed. And I'm proud of that. So my mother got me into dance class. It was like 10p for me to go for an hour. I think it was like three times a week. And because I had lots of energy, my mum was like, oh, God, give me a break. She's come on from school. She's done her homework. I'll put her in dance class down the street. So I became obsessed with just performing. And so there was an audition that a few of my friends were going to, and it was for the Von Trapp family. and my mum in a very mum way tried to explain you know you're not gonna get it because you're not white with blonde hair and blue eyes not that she said that and I blocked that out anyway I was like no it's an audition because once they see me they're gonna they're gonna want me to be part of the stage performance finally she got in the car and drove me and still on the journey there she's like Melanie are you sure you want to do this because you know and I was like I am adamant I am going to go to that audition, I'm going to nail it and I'm going to get the job.

18:44Anyway, I didn't get the job because it was far easier back in those days to say, oh, you're to this, you're to that. Now we can't be as direct and rightly so. But that just goes to show that even though I knew it deep down, I didn't care. I still wanted to make sure that I went there so they could see me perform regardless of my colour. So many things strike me about this story. One is your incredible work ethic and that's something that I feel like you've always had. Yeah, my mum and dad had that. You will just prove yourself. Yeah. Again and again and again. Yeah. Where do you think that work ethic came from for your mum and your dad?

19:19Different places, I imagine. Well, my dad came to England, I think, when he was, was he nine? His grandmother looked after him in Nevis and that was quite common back in those days. So when he came over, he didn't really know his parents, didn't really fit in in school. so he learned how to weld copper because back in those days if you learn a trade you're set for life really you always have a job so I was raised with my dad doing one week of morning shifts one week of afternoon shifts one week of night shifts and it was a routine and my dad never missed a day no matter hail rain or snow and he used to he used to ride his bike to work my mum took on an extra job because of the 10p a week dance classes and stuff like that and costumes that she would hand make so I've always known if you you've got to rely on yourself you can't rely on anybody else you've got to make your own money the other thing that strikes me about it is that you do not complain no you get on with it and you don't moan no which is which is many things it's it's it's quite northern just to like generalize horribly it's quite northern it's quite showbiz like the show must go on.

20:28I don't know. There's some celebrities that moan about everything. Yes. You're not one of them. I mean, it's two schools. Today I'm not. Who are they? Name them. No, I can't. Jerry Halliwell. No, I'm joking. But there are moments in Brucely Honest where you do talk about the fact that the National Front was a presence that you got, you got called horrible names at school. You did get bullied but what was your response? Well my mum and dad used to say for a start fight your own battles even though you've been chased all the way from school to the house which was a good 25 minute run because back then they didn't know what to call me.

21:09Did they call me half-breed? Did they call me the n-word? And I'd be like I'm mixed and then I'd run away because I was trying to get me but I fought my own battles. So when you got rejected for the Von Trapp family? I just went whatever that's their loss but I was inside I was crushed but I went to a lot of auditions and I'm thankful for that time because literally an audition back in those days you'd get told no too thin too fat too dark too light it would be that brutal so you'd go oh okay then well I'm not gonna have an eating disorder because I like my booty I'm just gonna go to another audition those rejections taught you a lot about resilience yeah yeah I think that's you if you ask anybody from back in those days when they were auditioning, they would all have like rhino skin, hard skin.

21:57It is a northern thing. You just pick yourself up and you just keep going. Were the other Spice Girls like that? Mel C. Mel C very much. I think we all were in our own individual ways because we were like the rejects out of all of our different groups of friends. So coming together, you know, that's why we were so strong and we felt such a connection because we were all not hard done by, but we didn't really fit in anywhere. But yet we fitted together, even though we were all completely different looking and from completely different backgrounds, really. But, I mean, when I think about it, Geri's mum, I mean, she was a cleaner.

22:35Her dad was a car salesman. Victoria's slightly different because she got driven to school in a Rolls Royce, but she still had to work hard. You know, Mel C, single parent, got brought up in Liverpool. So we've all had our, like, not perfect family lives, if you want to call it that. And you became your chosen family in a way. Oh, 100%. Yeah. And we went through something so special that only the five of us really can know what that feels like. Because to have such a whirlwind and have so many doors closed, like, in our face, girl bands are not going to work. We're like, well, why not? We're surrounded by boy bands, right?

23:13We get it. But why isn't this going to work? so we're going to knock on another door and another door and another door until we find somebody that believed in us. You know, there are so many incredible Spice Girls tracks, but my personal favourite is Holler, which I think is quite underrated. I loved it. How we used to write is we'd all come in with some kind of a topic or a theme, but it was always driven by one of our situations or the fact that, you know, we didn't want to be picked on anymore, so we have to make sure it's clear that we are girl-supporting girls and not where it goes too much into the fantasy world.

23:45It's genuinely us five because we really like each other. Yes, that's so great. And you're also so good about putting out into the universe the fact that you want a Spice Girls reunion to happen. I always say it and it will. Okay, good. It will. It will. No, we are actually in talks, all five of us. I can't say what for. Do you have a Spice Girls WhatsApp group? Yeah. What's it called? Well, there was one that was just the three of us and it was just the four of us and now it's the five of us. Oh, you're back together. That's so great. Yeah, when one leaves, it's like, uh-oh, what's gone on? What, does sometimes someone just leave the group and they don't say anything?

24:20Yeah, more often than not, it's me because I'm getting told off. Why have you said that I'm going to do your wedding dress? Because you are, Victoria. And then I'll just think, oh, bugger, I'm just going to leave, let them all calm down for a minute. And then I'll rejoin and go, sorry, but not really. That's amazing. Or like childish with each other. It'll just say like Mel B left the group. So going back to your childhood, now that idea of resilience and work served you very well in such respects. You left home at 16 and you became a dancer in Blackpool. But it wasn't without... But my mum was the one that encouraged me to do that because I think my mum knew that I just loved it so much.

24:59And I think she wanted to make sure that I found something that not only was I good at, but I enjoyed. And then my dad would use it against me. So if I didn't do well in my grades, then I wouldn't be able to go to dance class that week. So it worked. It worked for everyone. But your dad, as much as you love him still, and as much as he's this like extraordinary spiritual presence in your life now, there were some difficult times. Yeah, my dad is ridiculously strict. And because we were living with not very much money. This is how strict my dad was, but it's actually funny when I think about it now.

25:35like sports day would be coming up my dad took it that seriously he'd train me he'd go right you're going to run around this track and I'm glad that he pushed me I mean nowadays it would be called oh you you've got a really pushy parent but my dad taught me resilience and taught me strength and that if you believe in yourself you can do it and as stupid as you know winning the sports day 500 meters he's like yes and I was like yeah yeah because it gives you such a worth as well. And as well, it's what people wouldn't, it's because I was this little like stickly thing, you know, but I was a powerhouse because I knew not only would it make my dad happy, I just love that feeling of failing, but then winning.

26:19Maybe I didn't win that race, but I'm going to win the other race. All failure is data acquisition, I always think. Like every mistake, every loss, you can learn something from it. Well, the funny thing is, when you should say that, so I was having a bit of a tiff with Phoenix who's 24 and she said something along the lines of well you can't talk and she was being quite rude she was like three different marriages by three different baby daddies and I went hmm at least I never gave up the belief in love yes and I never did I never clearly I never did unquenchable spirit yeah and you're engaged now to Rory who sounds wonderful and calm and supportive and kind and was a friend for many years well my cousin's best friend so he was already part of my family which meant there was already that foundation of trust and safety which when you leave an abusive relationship you don't trust anyone you don't even trust yourself you don't even trust your own opinions that can take years to build back up i'm so happy for you me too i don't think i think rory's like relieved he's like finally she said yes after all these years for me going, I'm here.

27:27I wanted to talk about your relationship with your dad, Martin, because it leads us on to your second failure in a way. And your second failure is your first marriage. Yes. It was so important to you to try and make it work. Why was it that important? Well, number one, I was brought up in an era where you don't get divorced. And also living in Leeds, seeing all my friends marry their childhood sweetheart and then live in the same back-to-back house on the same street as their mum and dad and they're still together for years no matter what. So that to me is unbreakable. You can't then go back and go, well, it just didn't work.

28:07To my dad, that was like, well, you make it work. And I remember when my dad walked me down the aisle to, this is Phoenix's dad I'm talking about, so this is like 24 years ago. How old were you? I was 24. Oh, my God, so I made my feelings better not be getting married anytime soon. I'm sure she'd tell you. I'll go, well, that's what happened to me, see? So as the church door was opening, I was like, Dad, you meant to say to me, you don't have to go through with this. And he looked at me and he said, it's too bloody late now. Everybody's waiting. We're going. Because I'd already made up my mind.

28:40I'd already made up my mind, but I was so young and so naive. And I'd come from a spice bubble. You know, the first person I married was my backing dancer. Before Britney Spears, before J-Lo did it, I did it. Because I thought, well, he must love me. You know, he's my backup dancer that looks similar to me. Yes. And I didn't realise that I was really naive and I was highly embarrassed to have it not work, but I stuck at it and it got to a point where I couldn't be in it any longer. I could not. What do you think your early relationship with your dad taught you subconsciously about your relationship with men romantically?