Mel Schilling - ‘She was the embodiment of vibrant life’

29:58OK, your first failure is that failure we've touched on. It's your failure to act on your passion until later in life. so tell us what prompted you to choose this as a failure yes going back to what we're talking about before with that decision point that I had in my life and it really was a crossroads moment where I decided to step away from being a registered psychologist so I essentially had two careers here that I was engrossed in one of being a psychologist and one of being a television personality. And really, they're not just careers, they're both identities. And for me, I got to the point where I had to separate them out.

30:38And it was really, really difficult because, of course, not only had I spent 20 years as a psychologist, I spent seven years at university learning how to become one. There was a huge investment on my part. And so a big chunk of my identity was tied up in calling myself psychologist. It was on my business card. There it is, my name, my title. And I was really perplexed about it because I knew that if I spent another year continuing to be registered as a psychologist and therefore needing to comply with all the rules and regulations whilst being in this unpredictable reality TV world, that it would take its toll personally.

31:15The stress was incredible. So those two years of having to have lawyers and all that legal support and writing reports, pages and pages of reports, defending my ethics and so on. You know, it was very, very stressful. It really took its toll. And so I did, I got to that moment of crossroads and a beautiful mentor of mine, Sandy Ray is her name and she's an incredible senior psychologist in Australia who also does some TV. And she said to me, five or 10 years down the track, looking back, if you walk away from one or the other, which would you be most pissed off about? And that made it so clear for me.

31:53If I gave up my TV career to just do my psychology work full time, I would have the worst FOMO you could imagine. And that was really, really telling. And so that's what this is only, what, four years ago. So it's really recent. And so it took me to that point of having absolute clarity of this is actually my purpose. Yes, I needed to be a psychologist in order to get here, in order to have the platform and to have the voice and have the expertise to share. But this is my purpose, reaching as many people, millions of people, as opposed to just one on one. Yes. Was there part of you, because I feel like we're quite similar in many ways.

32:36Was there part of you that had that internalized narrative of you need to have a serious profession? I put that in quotation marks. Oh, yeah. Particularly given your childhood and, you know, where you came from and daughter of a policeman and all that. Yes. Yeah. Did you have, was that difficult as well? Like, will I no longer be taken seriously if I'm just doing this trivial TV stuff? And I'm saying that's what other people would think maybe. Absolutely. And it even came from my parents. Right. Yeah. I can imagine that. Yeah. For many years, it was, you're never going to make it. It's a lovely hobby to have.

33:10You're doing a lovely job with your hobby. You know, they'd never be that condescending. but that was kind of the message, you know. But I left corporate employment in 2001. So had like, you know, a good decade of running my own business in a few different forms. And still, every time I'd see my mum and dad, they'd say, oh, I've got enough work on Mel's. You know, have you got enough to do? Are you okay? Are you actually putting food on the table? And for them, the idea, because they've had, you know, very traditional career paths, the idea of me being at a job that is so, what's the word, unreliable, completely unreliable, could be taken out from under you at any moment, was very frightening for them.

33:50For me, that's very exciting. But yes, a lot of that did creep in, a bit of that, do I have credibility? Will I be taken seriously if I don't have that title psychologist? And is psychology a very male-dominated profession? I wouldn't say so. There are a lot of women, a lot of women in psychology. What is a psychologist and how is it different from being a psychotherapist or a psychiatrist? I can't speak for the UK. It may be different there. But in Australia, a psychologist is the person who has certain qualifications. And in my day, so I did my training obviously a long time ago. And so I had to do my undergraduate, my postgraduate, and then two years, a bit like an apprenticeship, two years under supervision.

34:33These days you have to have the masters in the mix as well as all of that. And so you have to meet very specific criteria. You have to have regular supervision, regular professional development and keep it up. So it's very closely monitored and the code of ethics is very, very tight. Of course, to protect our clients, you know, it's so important that we have that. Psychotherapists, counsellors, coaches are not monitored in the same way. Okay. But in terms of the practice of it, you're still sitting opposite someone and it's a session where you're asking them pertinent questions and getting to the root of why they might be acting the way that they are.

35:11Okay, got it. Nailed it. So that idea of categorizing it as a failure, which I know is what this podcast is all about. So you had to come up with three failures, but did it actually feel like a failure that you didn't do it earlier? That's the reason I listed it for this chat. I mean, I think have a very similar philosophy as you and I talk to my clients about failure is feedback. Yes. That's the way we talk about it. It's just a piece of data that you can add to the mix and make a new decision, go off in a different path. But yes, once I had made this very difficult decision, I had such a, oh, now I can exhale.

35:49there was a real sense of relief and a real sense of, oh, finally I can just be me. Finally I can sit on that couch and I can say what I want to say to the people on our show from my perspective. Because prior to that, I was constantly having to filter everything I said through what would the board say about this? What would other psychologists say about this? you know, constantly having to check myself, am I going to be seen as conforming to other people's ethics? Where I landed was, I actually really believe in my own ethics. I don't need a board to tell me whether I'm acting in integrity or not, because I know I am.

36:32So that was very empowering. And at that moment, I did sort of look back and go, why didn't I do this 10 years ago? What age were you then? When you... I must have been about 47. I love hearing that because I do think that we live in a culture that celebrates the idea of youth and of doing something before a certain time. So the 30 under 30 lists, the idea that if you succeed at a younger age, it's somehow better. and I think that what that leads to is this ingrained insecurity that you're not doing as well as you should be by certain metrics and what I love hearing people say is that they found their passion later in life or they signed their first book deal in their 50s or they didn't learn until they were 70 something how they wanted to live because I think that really makes the point that you can flourish with age, that actually age is an enormous benefit because it brings us wisdom and experience and self-knowledge.

37:35So I really like hearing that. And I wonder what you think about that, about that idea that life shouldn't be a race. Oh, absolutely. I turned 50 last year and I love it. I love it. I love the calm wisdom that it's brought for me. You know, I don't feel panicked about proving myself or getting to the front of the race because I'm really content with where I'm at. Don't get me wrong, I'm not giving up. I've got so many exciting projects ahead of me and I'm so clear about what I want to achieve with them. But it's a calmness. That's sort of the way I would describe it. I have this calmness about me now that is not dampening my ambition.

38:21it's just sitting next to my ambition and whispering in her ear it's okay you're gonna get there yes do you know what i would describe it as because i've been feeling this lately being aligned with your purpose yeah and when you're finally aligned with your purpose it does feel a lot clearer like decisions become a lot clearer not only that but when you're really busy and stressed it's a different kind of stress i feel i'm not internalizing it and questioning myself, I'm stressed and I'm busy and that's fine. That's appropriate because I'm doing something I really believe in. And it just so happens to garner attention right now because I've got a book that's about to come out.

38:59But it's the first time I felt that, like, no, I know why I'm doing this and I'm really glad I'm doing it. Yeah. Have you heard the term eustress? No. As in E-U-S-T-R-E-S-S. Okay. No. It's good stress, positive stress. So there's distress and there's eustress. Huh. That's eustress. E-U. E-U. Okay. That means something different in Britain, as you probably know but we've been very stressed over the eu yeah eustress positive stress propels you forward that's great yeah my husband says sometimes that anxiety is the price you pay for responsibility yeah actually it's a privilege sometimes to feel stress and to feel anxious because it means you're doing something good yes okay let's go on to your second failure which i know will resonate with so many listeners this is the fact that you dated according to you all the emotionally unavailable men in your 20s and 30s i did the peter pans the commitment phobes oh my god all of them anyone who i would prefer it even if they lived interstate overseas even better right i was captain self-sabotage okay that was my job so were you single throughout your 20s and 30s throughout my 30s i was throughout your 30s Higher 30s.

40:16Give us a little potted relationship history that led you to that point. Okay. So my first boyfriend was divine, just gorgeous, absolute sweetheart, lifted me up, made me feel amazing. And that lasted for four years. So my first grown-up boyfriend, I mean. So that was amazing. But then I grew and he didn't. I felt like I left him behind in many ways. And so I grew in one direction and he kind of didn't. And so I guess you could say I grew out of him. And instead of breaking up with him in a really positive, smart, mature way, I kissed his cousin, which was great. Okay, how old are you now at this point?

40:5621. Okay. Not a child. Should have known better. Yeah, that was the beginning of quite destructive behaviour, I think, on my part. I was rebelling because it was such a lovely, grown-up, nurturing, positive relationship. Like it really was. It was a really good one. as far as first relationships go. And I needed to rebel, and I did. Spent quite a few years rebelling, actually. And you probably felt if I don't rebel and if there isn't a catalyst to our breaking up, this is just going to be me now for the rest of my life because there's no other reason for us to end. That's right. Okay. There was no reason.

41:33Yeah. He didn't have any break-up-able offences. You know, he was actually a real good one. You had to create one. I did, yeah, yeah. And so I then went on to a series of less functional relationships, you might say, and even one quite toxic one, which I think we were probably codependent looking back on it. And it was, you know, very, he was a performing artist as well. And so the two of us were both quite explosive together. Looking back, I think it should have just been a really hot affair. Yeah. Should have just stayed there and ended. And it would be a great memory. but we turned it into a relationship and lived together.

42:10And I don't think we should have really. Okay. So what do you now looking back as a psychologist for 20 plus years, as an expert on one of the world's most popular relationship shows, what do you think your pattern was and why were you living it out? Oh, Elizabeth. Treat yourself as a client. This is a big one. This is a big one. I was hurt when I was around 17. I'm so sorry. Thank you. Hurt by men. And I didn't deal with that terribly well. And so I think what I did was got angry and punished all the men. And, you know, I've had years of experience and therapy for myself and I understand all of that now.

42:58Although you can still see me get a bit angry with the men. I mean, never, ever lose that. Because you're doing it for so many of us. I won't. Yes, I know. And I love that part of my world. But I think that, well, I believe that's what led to me making really unhealthy choices. And I got to the point where I was saying to my friends and to the world, I want a relationship. I love dating. I love men. But so much of me was pushing men away. My girlfriends used to say if any guy would come near me in a bar or something, was like I had F off written across my forehead in neon lights. I can remember a guy saying to me, can I buy you a drink?

43:38And I exploded at him. Why would I want you to buy me a drink? Don't you think I'm independent enough? I earn my own money. Went off on one. I mean, not very sexy. So the emotional unavailability, that's interesting because when I read this as a failure, I thought that would be what I did, which is yearn for emotional availability and yet exclusively date emotionally unavailable men. Whereas for you, it sounds like you didn't want the emotional availability. Yes. I wasn't aware of it. I think at an unconscious level, I was pushing away anyone who was quote unquote a good guy. Yes. I think they did cross my path, but I wouldn't have even notice them because I believed I needed to be with the bad boy.

44:22I needed to be in that state of drama. Yeah. That state of flux with a guy. And is this at the stage now that we're talking about, had you given up your life on the stage and were you now training to be a psychologist? I was still very much on the stage at that point. Okay. On the stage professionally and personally, it sounds like. Yeah, that's right. I mean, my life was a drama. I was drawn to drama and it wasn't good, wasn't fun. Yeah. Were you unhappy? I would say yes, particularly in my 30s. And, you know, I lived alone and travelled to Dubai, lived in Dubai for a couple of years. Not a great place to be single.

44:59Trying to date there was really tricky. I was lonely. You know, many a Saturday night spent on that couch by myself wishing that there was someone fabulous sitting next to me but not really understanding why I couldn't attract the right people and probably having a little bit too much pride to let a good person in. What advice would you give to that male now? I'd say let your walls down, honey. Just be real. You know, I think I spent so much time playing the role of the accomplished, independent, successful woman, which I was, but that's not all I was. You know, there was such a big part of me that only, you know, one or two people in the world knew about that was very lonely and very sad and desperately wanted to have a partner by my side who could be my person and have my back.

45:58Yes. If someone's listening to this and they're struggling to let their walls down because perhaps like you, they have been badly hurt and they're scared of making themselves vulnerable. And any time they venture towards taking that step, they're let down by someone who ghosts them, by someone who's disappointing or just not consistent. What would you say is the first step to allowing those walls to come down? Because sometimes it's such a hard thing to do. Yeah. And I meet a lot of women in that boat. The first thing I would say is stop trying to do both simultaneously. Stop dating for a while.

46:34step out and just focus on yourself. I didn't do that. And I was trying to kind of do both at once, but both are really big life projects, you know, and I think you really can't do justice to both at the same time. And so I often say this to my clients, take all the apps off your phone, anyone who, you know, jumps into your DMs at 3am with a you up emoji, block, delete, cut it off so you don't have that distraction, you don't get that little dopamine hit, stop it. And set a time for it. You know, you might say, okay, for the next three months, I'm just focusing on me, whether that's journaling or seeing a therapist or talking to your best friend or a family member, just be with yourself and let that stuff percolate and process it because you can't process it, particularly if there's trauma, you can't process it while you're dating.

47:27You're just going to self-sabotage. And what if you have the opposite problem? which is that you're in love with the idea of being in love and you make yourself too open and too readily available for people who then don't treat you the way that you need to be treated. I'd say same thing. Step out for a while. There is nothing wrong with stepping out for a short time. I don't mean give up at all, but I'm talking about taking a little break. You don't break up with dating. You just take a holiday from it and just invest in yourself and do some thinking about what is it that I want from this relationship?

48:02What is my dating goal? That's a really, really big decision to make because I find a lot of people in the dating world telling themselves my goal is to be in a committed, long-term, serious relationship, but the tactics that they're using are taking them towards casual hookups. To me, it's a bit like saying I want to run a marathon, but in order to get there, I'm going to jump hurdles. Yes. It doesn't make sense. Also, the other thing that I would say is if what you've been doing up till now hasn't worked for you, don't keep doing it. And I needed that advice. So my situation was I got divorced when I was 35.

48:41And then I was pitched into the dating app world for the first time because I've been in a series of long term monogamous relationships since the age of 19. so it's my first experience of that world and it was unbelievably tough and it taught me a lot and one of the things that it taught me was the people that I have an instinct automatically to dismiss when I see their dating profile come up on Bumble or Hinge actually I need to give those people another chance because the ones that I've been instinctively drawn to in the past that hasn't work for me. Spoiler alert. So I sort of need to, I needed to be more open-minded whilst also protecting my heart, which is sometimes a difficult balance to strike.

49:26It's very difficult. And that's why I don't think you should do dating alone. You know, to have a dating buddy or a little dating crew is so important that you can have those debriefs. I'm running a group at the moment for women around confidence. And it just happens that almost all the women in the group are dating at the moment. So it's kind of almost turned into a dating confidence group, which I love. And what I love about it is they'll go on a date and then they'll straight away jump into the WhatsApp group or they'll meet up for a drink together afterwards and debrief it. Have a laugh. Yes.

49:56You know, to be able to laugh at the maybe embarrassing thing that you said, or, you know, the hope that you might have for this person to show that vulnerability and unpack that stuff with someone you trust is so important. There'll be people listening to this who are perfectly happy on their own and that's wonderful and aren't in the market to meet anyone. But for those people who really crave a relationship and are currently single, would you say you will meet someone? Like it will happen. Yeah, I do say that. Okay. And I do have hope because I lived it myself. Yes. And I didn't believe that I was going to meet someone.

50:32I genuinely didn't. I genuinely got to the point in my life where you're laughing because you felt the same yeah yeah and I was starting to map out my solo life and what that was going to look like for me and that was okay oh so I want to know all about how you met your now husband and just to give you a little brief warm-up I'll talk about how I met mine which was I had gone through that phase of like this isn't working I need time for myself and I went on a yoga retreat and it was really helpful and all of that and then one morning I remember it was March and it was snowing outside I love snow I know but not in March anyway and I downloaded this app that someone in LA had told me about it was relatively new and it was called hinge and obviously everyone knows about it now and the first person I matched with was a man called Justin whose profile did him no favors the photos weren't particularly flattering he had three kids which was not something I thought I wanted and he was persistent and a consistent communicator so from that moment of matching he messaged me basically every day for two weeks which I at that stage was like what a weirdo why is he doing this or what an emotional stalker because I was so used to the emotional fuckwits and unavailability and all of that and eventually I agreed to meet him for a date and I went into that date with absolutely zero expectation to the extent that I had just booked tickets to move to LA full-time that morning.

52:05I was like I'll just get this date out of the way and then I'm going to start my new solo life in LA and I walked in and I met Justin and he was so much more handsome than his photos the chemistry was immediate after that took us a while to like build up our love because we'd both been married and divorced and bruised. But it taught me so much about not always trusting my first impression, my first assumption, my first judgment. And also that I find it so romantic now that it took us a while to build up to saying I love you because there's such safety and security in that. And I'm so grateful for all of those stages that I went that I went through along the way.

52:48Sorry, go ahead. I need to know, what did you do with your ticket to LA? Oh, great question. One that no one's ever asked me. I basically changed it into a shorter trip. So I changed it into a month long trip in, I think it was September, 2019. And I finished writing my book, How to Fail in that time. And Justin came out for four days, just four days, like be with me. And we went for dinner at the Chateau Marmont. And that is the first time that we said that we loved each other. Oh. Six months into dating, that's when we told each other that we loved each other. And so that's how I used my LA ticket.

53:22So it all came good. I love that. Now you met your husband on eHarmony. I did. Okay. So where were you at in your life, in your dating life when that happened? And how old were you? So I was 49. 49? Sorry, 39. No. I was saying that doesn't work, Mel. It wasn't one year ago. It doesn't work. Didn't I mention I was 60? No. I was 39. Numbers are not my strong point. I was 39 when I met Justin. Oh, another similarity. Yes, carry on. I was 39 and I had retrained as a dating coach. So this was something that, so I'd been doing the psychology and found that so often the conversations that I was having with people, particularly in the corporate world where I was doing a lot of my work, just naturally turned into conversations about dating.

54:08You know, I remember I was doing a lot of training of people in one of the big professional services firms and talking to people who were essentially accountants about how to have the more interpersonal skills like sales and negotiations and that sort of thing. And so often we do these role plays and, you know, I try to get them comfortable with having sort of difficult conversations and they'd say, oh, this came up on a date or how would I apply this on my next date? And I realized there was a real hunger for this kind of skill set. I mean, to me, fundamentally, it's exactly the same skill set.

54:41I just needed to frame it differently. I looked into it and there were, at that stage, no Australians who were accredited as dating coaches. So I became the first one. So that was fun going down that road and started to actually work in the space. And I actually had one of those aha light bulb moments myself where I was working with a client and giving her this advice and I actually had this thing. I would have loved to have seen the look on my face when I actually realised I need to take my own bloody advice. I can't believe I'm not doing this myself. It makes so much sense. And what we're essentially talking about was strategic dating.

55:21Yes, I love this. Right. So this is what my next book is on, P.S. Genius idea. This is where I think all the goods come together. all of my training in psychology all of my experience as a really crap data my experience as a dating coach all comes together because essentially it's about how to use the skills the smart skills that we use in our careers in our dating life I mean think of it this way you would not turn up to a job interview with no information about the organization without thinking about what you have to offer the job you wouldn't go without a resume would you No. And you wouldn't go all disheveled.

56:01You know, if it was a job in the corporate setting, you wouldn't arrive in your bikini, now would you? But these are examples that I hear all the time about people in their dating lives, complete self-sabotage by not being prepared, not having thought through what they want, so therefore being dragged in one direction or the other based on what someone else needs. Yes, that's so good, particularly for women, I think. Absolutely. So you took your own advice? I did. I did. I mean, I essentially have a four-step process to become date ready. And the first step is to date yourself. And I thought, okay, I'm going to go back to basics.

56:42I'm going to start with me. And I started putting myself through all of the little activities and so on that I was doing with my clients. Started with values. What are my highest values? and you know I realized things for me at the time and it's pretty consistent even to this day as values tend to be pretty consistent with things like freedom for example and independence well those are really high values for me so for me trying to hook up with a potential partner who wants to envelop me and dominate me and control me is never going to work because it's a clash with my values. Health and adventure are really important to me.

57:25So when I hooked up with that guy, and I'm thinking of one in particular at the moment, who all he wanted to do was sit on the couch and eat junk food and watch football. Well, that's just not only unadventurous, it's unhealthy, and it just feels totally incongruent to me. So I started getting really clear about who I am and what I want, and therefore allowing that to dictate the kind of person I wanted to be with. And that's where true deal breakers come from. You know, they're not just about someone's height or, you know, the football club they belong to. It is that values-based stuff. So I started to actually think from my own perspective, what is going to serve me in a relationship?

58:04What's going to bring out my best? But also what's going to make me the happiest? How will I play to my strengths? You know, I'm a big fan of positive psychology and a strength-based approach. And so I really believe in, you know, all the Martin Seligman is one of my favorite writers in this area. And so his model of the science of wellbeing, I don't know if you've heard of it, the PERMA model. Oh, I love this. Let me just share it with your listeners. It's P-E-R-M-A. These are the things that you need in order to have wellbeing. P is positive emotion. So having more positive emotions in your day.

58:38E is engagement. So doing the things that where you're in flow. So things that are aligned with your values every day. R is relationships, but essentially positive relationships, not the toxic ones. M, meaning having a higher meaning in your life. And A is accomplishment. So getting that sense of accomplishment. And the R, so the positive relationship piece, I realized that that was the big bit that was missing for me. Had all the other things in spades. So I started to get really strategic at that point, getting really clear on what my personal dating brand was, got clear about my dating mindset and getting rid of all those old stories that I would tell myself about, you know, all men cheat, men will hurt you, people will let you down, all that sort of stuff.

59:27It was rubbish. You know, it was based on historical stuff that was no longer relevant to me. So I did a big clean out and this is the kind of stuff I do with my clients now. And then, you know, got to the point where I had clarity and I knew what I wanted. and that's when I stepped onto eHarmony. Okay. So I feel like I had the advantage of having done loads of pre-work before I stepped in there. You said that there was a four-stage model. Yes. Are you allowed to just – I know that everyone will be rushing out to pre-order the book as soon as they can, but what are the other three stages? Yes, so it starts with date yourself, then have a positive dating mindset, then set up your personal dating brand.

1:00:06So it's a bit like personal branding in your work life but in your dating life. And then your authentic dating strategy, which is online and offline. Okay. Yeah. Very interesting. So you sign up to eHarmony and you meet Gareth. Yes. How quickly do you meet him? He was the fourth person I dated. Okay. On eHarmony. And a little bit like your situation, he was living in a different state. So I was in Melbourne and he was in Adelaide. It was a flight away. We couldn't just pop over and see each other. so for the first six weeks we only texted and emailed each other and I think that was the making of us because for me one of the big things that was missing with a lot of guys I was dating was the intellectual banter I got very bored of people very very quickly and all of a sudden this guy was meeting me not only meeting me at my level but he was way I mean full disclosure he's a member of Mensa.

1:01:02Okay. Sure, he won't mind me telling you that. So he's a big nerd and has a very big brain and he's very funny and witty. Did I mention he's Northern Irish? I did know that. So the banter was incredible and funny and witty and I found that all of a sudden I was really funny. I've never been so good at texting in my life as when I started talking to him and it was funny and it was just going on and on and I thought, okay, I'm going to have a conversation with this guy. I'm going to call him. I'm going to have voice-to-voice action with this guy. Do you think I could understand a word he said? I remember I was driving and I had to pull over to concentrate and just listen.

1:01:45I could not. His accent was so strong. I guess it still is but I don't notice it anymore. She must be like, I found this amazing man but I can't understand a word he says. No. Couldn't understand a word. So it was until we met in person so then I could lip read, of course. First date, I was lip reading. But, oh, my gosh, the first date I was a mess because by that point, despite all the best advice from my girlfriends, don't put all your eggs in one basket, I was. I stopped dating everyone else. I was only focused on this guy because I just knew. It was weird. I just knew. It was an intuition, I guess.

1:02:26and I met him and he says I just did everything I would tell my clients not to do. I just unloaded and just told him my entire life story in the space of, you know, an hour in a really high-pitched voice. He's like really, really, really fast. Oh, it's so embarrassing to think back now. But we had this moment where he just leant across the table, put his hand on mine and he just said, it's okay. You don't have to prove anything here. Oh, wow. Wow. Exhale. Wow. Yeah. I feel calm just hearing that. Yeah.

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1:04:35And now you're married. We are. And your parents, which we're coming on to because it pertains to your third failure. Yeah. But I want to ask what it is like for Gareth being married to someone with 20 years psychological experience who is a dating expert on the foremost relationship program in the world. What's that like? I'll answer that by sharing the two most common phrases in our relationship. One from both of us is don't tell me what to do because we are both alphas. We are both very driven, very focused individuals, type A personalities you might say. So don't tell me what to do. And number two, which only comes from him, is I'm not your client.

1:05:18So look, it's not a low key relationship, you might say. We are both 100 % goers. So it's interesting at the moment because the way our world is constructed is I'm the primary breadwinner and he's the primary parent at the moment. And there's been times in our relationships where that was reversed. So it's tricky to navigate, you know, from a sort of power balance perspective in our relationship and he's, you know, a very proud guy and he spends a lot of time, he plays in the share market and that's sort of his, and because he's a massive nerd with a massive brain, it's really successful. He's really good at it, but it has an impact, you know, on this relationship.

1:05:59So we're constantly navigating where we're at and making sure that our communication is working. And, you know, there's been times where I'm away from the family for, you know, last year for three months at a time, which is really hard. And so we're starting, I say starting, 12 years down the track, starting to get good at navigating, for example, our communication when I'm returning to the family. So that re-entry point, which is tricky. Yes, very much so. Thank you for speaking so candidly about that, because I think lots of people would look at you and assume that you have a perfect relationship where nothing ever needs to be said because you've already worked it all out in your brilliant clinical mind.

1:06:44And what's it like for him that you have a public profile? He loves it. That's so nice. So you feel totally supported and finally like you're not too much, you're just enough. Exactly. Yes. More than supported, actually, he propels me forward. He uses this revolting expression. You know, men like to talk about balls when it comes to courage. So he says things like, oh that was great you were balls out or you were balls to the wall there babe more of that you know that's his way of complimenting me i love the sound of gareth he's a good one okay your third failure i am so glad you're going to talk about this and i also long before we met i saw an instagram post that you had put out there which referred to this and i as someone who has gone through her own fertility journey, I felt so seen and understood in your words.

1:07:39And I want to thank you about being a public figure in this space, because your third failure is your failure to pay attention to your biological clock until it was nearly too late. So you've met Gareth, and then what happens in terms of, do you have the conversation quite early on about wanting to have a family? So he has a child. Well, I shouldn't say child, she's 27. He has a young woman. So knowing that he already had a child, I felt like the pressure was off because in my mind, I didn't believe that I was going to become a parent. I didn't believe that I had a yearning to become a parent.

1:08:17Ever. I believed that I didn't ever. Interesting. I now know that that's not true. Yes. You know, you're probably noticing quite a lot of self-denial and avoidance in my history, which is why I'm so good at spotting it now, I guess. But I did. I had one girlfriend who would always say to me when I'd say, oh, no, I'm not going to be a parent. I'm just going to be single and fabulous. She'd say, I don't believe you, but okay. She would always say that and it annoyed me knowing. And when she had a baby and saw how gorgeous I was with her baby and how connected I was and how maternal I seemed to be, she kind of just looked knowingly at me like, your turn will come.

1:08:54Don't be ridiculous. It's not for me. She's your baby. That's all. you know, shut it down. I wouldn't say I was one of those women whose clock was ticking. I wouldn't. And this is me getting to 38, 39. Nope, nothing's happening. And then I get into this relationship with this person who is my forever. It's very clear to me, you know, that's not being warm and fuzzy. That was just, that's how it was. I realized that I'd found my soft place to land. This is my person I'm going to be with forever. And it shifted. I can't explain it. I guess looking back, it was always there, but I was so self-protective and resistant to, I didn't want to be the single girl who wanted a baby because that's just too painful.

1:09:41Yes. I totally hear you. And I also think for me in this area, there are ways we're lucky enough to live in a scientific age where there are ways if we are single women that we could have children on our own and I never wanted that I wanted to have a child within a relationship so it sounds like you met the right person for you and that's when you felt safe enough to allow that yearning in yeah yeah I remember we went to a day at the races a big boozy you know corporate day and introducing this new boyfriend to everybody and having this wonderful time with him. And then we, on the way home, thought it'd be a good idea to go bar hopping after a full day of drinking.

1:10:28Oh, my God. He's definitely a Irish. Yes, he is. And I thought it'd be a good idea to have a cry in every bar along Chapel Street in Melbourne. So that was good. That'd be a good idea to have a cry. And one of the cries was, what if I can't have a baby? What if I'm not enough for you? This came out. We'd probably been together three months at this point. Classy. What if I'm not enough? You know, really classy. And I went home that night and went off the pill, which was a ridiculous thing to do with a boyfriend I'd had for three months. I did. I went off the pill. I'm going off the pill tonight.

1:11:10Yeah, okay, right, whatever. Fast forward probably six months and I moved to Adelaide to be with him, which was massive, literally put some tenants in my apartment, jumped in my car and drove. And we were together and we were doing this dance for a couple of months of him feeling ready around, you know, having babies and not me, and then me feeling ready and not him. And we finally got to this point where we're both saying at the same time, I think we're ready. Feeling very scared, very surprised that we'd arrived there. But at that point we're both 39 and I said okay let's just do it I'll go off the pill I'd been on the pill for 20 years so I thought this is going to take a while we need to get into it because there's a long road ahead of us within about 10 minutes I was pregnant yeah it just happened the strangest thing and I went into full denial it's not happening pretended it wasn't happening I could not process it.

1:12:09I just couldn't. Kept working as hard, putting myself in stressful situations, ignoring, ignoring, ignoring, until I started to get a little bit of a bump. And I was getting to about 11 and a half weeks. And I remember I finally said to him, okay, I'm ready to accept that this is happening a little bit. How about we go shopping and buy a baby thing, just one thing to represent what's going on. And I remember mum and dad were over and staying with us at the time and I went shopping with mum and bought a little pink thing and a little blue thing. And that's when the miscarriage started. It was when I was out shopping and it all started to fall apart.

1:12:52And it was so confusing because I'd finally arrived at that point where I thought, yeah, this is something that's going to happen in my life. This is something I deserve. I actually can do this it's going to happen I'm scared shitless but I can do this I've got the right team around me and then it was gone so very very confusing time and for me it's almost like the grief became really complicated because part of me was sort of saying well I didn't really want it anyway I wasn't really ready but then it was taken away from me without my say yeah I'm so sorry I'm so sorry I feel you so deeply I know you do yeah I think also coping mechanisms can be so extraordinary and dysfunctional but I'm so grateful to them for protecting me and I had a similar coping mechanism I think when I had my first miscarriage very similar time it was 12 it was just before our 12-week scan and because my then marriage wasn't as it should have been and because it had come at the end of a very long and difficult year where I'd started fertility treatment I remember thinking well you're probably a bit relieved aren't you that was like an internal which was so unkind to myself.

1:14:20But it was that thing, I think, of I can't name this grief or give it much shape because I'm grieving an absence that's quite complicated. So I can only accept so much, and that's what I'm going to tell myself until I can accept the rest of it. Yeah. Do you think you said to yourself, you didn't really deserve this? Yes. You did this? A hundred percent. I think I did too. Yeah. Because you might notice just before I said when I was pregnant I kept working, I kept putting myself in stressful situations. That's what I was saying to myself. You did this because you kept working at the same pace and I blamed myself.

1:15:06Yes. Which is so ridiculous. It's awful. And I'm sure, again, so many women listening will relate to it because we do tend to internalize it and pour the shame of that self-perceived failure into that hole, that space. It's a horrible, horrible thing. And even now, Mel, even after doing, what is it, like five years of work on failure specifically, on the language of failure, on how we shouldn't apply it to fertility. Even now, when I recently had another fertility treatment cycle that wasn't successful, even now, I still turn it into myself. And at least I get better at realizing that's what I'm doing.

1:15:53And then I'm able to sort of question it. But it's that default automatic reaction that is very hard to uncondition yourself from. Oh, it's the language we use. It's a failed marriage. It's a failed IVF attempt. Yeah. Oh, and it's so hard to separate yourself from it. Yeah. I'm so sorry for your loss. I'm so honored that you feel you can talk about it in this space. And I now want to get onto happier times because I want to know about your daughter. Yes. So then what happens after you have this realisation, both of you, I imagine, that this is really meaningful and it is definitely something you want.

1:16:30Yes. So it was very powerful in terms of our joint decision making and our mindset at that point because we did become absolutely crystal clear that this is what we want. So we started having conception sex, which is not very sexy, is it? It shouldn't even be called sex. It should be called work. Conception strategy. That's what we should call it. Started calling the bed the workbench. Got on the workbench. We did it. Put my legs up the wall. Did all the things. So I don't know if you have them here, but it's like a stage before IVF where you can have assisted. IUI. Is it that one where they basically measure your cycle and then they put the sperm in at the appropriate juncture?

1:17:12No, this is prior to that. Okay. So it was a drug. It was a drug that I took that basically supersized the ovulation process and meant that I produced more eggs. That's all it was. It's like a precursor to IVF, I guess. And so we did that for a couple of months in a row and it didn't work. And anyone who has been through fertility treatment knows that just saying we did that drug and it didn't work sounds like a very simple thing. Yes. But isn't it incredible what your body and your whole mental life and emotional life goes through taking a fertility drug. It's insane. And also my experience of fertility hormones was I was never quite aware when I was in it.

1:18:00I mean, they had a massive impact on me, but there was a sort of numbing quality to it where I was like, well, this is just me now. This is just me. And it's only afterwards looking back that you realize the extent, the toll that it took on you. Yeah. Incredible. and that was before I even started IVF but we then got to the point it was a year down the track so we were both 40 and thought okay let's do it now let's do IVF so did the first cycle and got a healthy number of eggs and that was great and they said because of your age we'd like to put two in put two fertilized eggs inside you and so we had to go home and have a big talk about it because this could mean twins and my sister's had twins so there's twins in the family are we prepared to do this and we said yeah absolutely we are so let's let's do that so we put the two in and neither of them took so that I mean in itself as you know is the most incredible emotional journey that you go through the hope the belief you start the planning our life is about to completely change and be transformed and then bang it's over it's not going to happen I remember exactly where I was when I got the phone call I was with my mum and my sister and my nieces at the time shopping it's always the shopping Mel stop going shopping I need to stop shopping oh my gosh I know what you mean though because also at that stage especially with your first round of IVF you're like well technically I'm pregnant and there's nothing right like it's the best it could possibly be because it's gone through all of these processes and so the chances are going to be much higher so I'm good and then it's so shocking if they don't stick as they call it which is a horrible phase.

1:19:38They didn't stick. But the next day, the doctor called and said, look, there's this one little egg that didn't make it to maturity in time, but it's made it now. Would you like to put this one on ice? And I was still just in shock and not really processing what was going on. I said, yeah, whatever. Okay, put it on ice, whatever that means. And I didn't really think much more about it. So this little egg went onto ice for six weeks whilst they waited for my next natural cycle to happen. And then they said, would you like to put this egg in now in your natural cycle? So I didn't have to have the drugs again because we were planning to take probably three or four months off because as you know, the toll that it takes on your body and relationship.

1:20:25And I thought, well, I don't have to go through the drugs again. They just want to put it in a natural cycle. okay nothing to lose really here and that was maddie wow so she spent the first six weeks of her life frozen which is why i think she loves the movie frozen so much she really resonates with that elsa the complex bit is that i feel guilt about having that successful process particularly with someone like you a sister in this process it's almost like survivor guilt I think it's probably a similar kind of process in that I know so many women and one of my closest friends has been through I think nine cycles and she now has a little girl who's very good friends with my little girl.

1:21:11But I almost feel guilty, well not almost, I do feel guilty that I did one cycle and I got the prize. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your saying that. and as much as possible I want to absolve you of that guilt because I feel nothing but uncomplicated happiness for you because you know the pain and you have shown so many of us the way you've shown me that there is hope on the other side of it and also there's that interesting thing about empathy in that I don't think it has to be grounded in having experienced exactly the same things as anyone else. It's simply an active attempt to think of other people and to try and understand and to ask a question about what they might be going through.

1:22:01And I would apply that to any area of life, not just fertility. But I think I talk about it a lot because I feel that women who have been through fertility struggles and who don't have children are underserved in the public discourse. And even you talking about this is such an amazing service to the rest of us. And so never feel guilt. It's not that, I mean, I can only speak for myself. I don't want to take away anyone's joy in having their children. I celebrate their children and I celebrate their motherhood. I think it's wonderful. It's simply that there is, as you know any too well, this silent number of women and men who I think a lot of time feel unseen and so what I'm passionate about is like making them feel seen and giving words to what they're going through but it's not mutually exclusive to someone having joy in their parenthood yeah so I don't want you to feel guilt don't like I know guilt is such a difficult emotion because but guilt for a reason is there to show that you've done something wrong and you haven't done anything wrong so it's just a sort of default conditioning again it is conditioning yeah you know I appreciate you so much and I see you very much as like on our side definitely definitely I'm in there I'm in the trenches I know oh Mel we have gone over oh by so much time I'm really sorry but I couldn't stop talking to you I could talk you for days, weeks on end.

1:23:33I think what you have to say is so powerful and so helpful to so many people. We are blessed to see you on our TV screens, but I'm particularly honoured and touched that you came on How to Fail. Thank you so, so much. Thank you so much. This has been therapy for me. Oh, the highest compliments. Thank you. Thank you.

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