Mo Gilligan - Fatherhood Is A Gift I Didn’t Know I Needed

0:00Hello and welcome to How To Fail. This is the podcast that believes a fail is simply a first attempt in learning. Before we get on to this episode, please do remember to like, subscribe and follow so that you never miss a single conversation. But it was only until probably I think I left school at like 16. I was like, oh, this thing is called dyslexia. I find it hard to listen to praise about myself. I find it very, very hard. How bad did it get, this debt spiral? all.

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1:22Right now, our listeners get an additional 15 % off any annual membership at masterclass.com slash fail. That's 15 % off at masterclass.com slash fail. Masterclass.com slash fail. My guest today was born in Lambeth, South London. His parents separated when he was five and he and his two older sisters were primarily raised on a council estate by his mum. He struggled at school but found refuge in drama and making his classmates laugh. When he started taking his comedy online, uploading satirical sketches of London geezers and British MCs to Snapchat and Instagram, they went viral. And Mo Gilligan's career path was set.

2:10Soon he was performing set-out stand-up tours and by 2018 had migrated onto television with Channel 4's late-night entertainment show The Big Nasty. In 2019, he fronted his own format, the latest show with Mo Gilligan, which won him the first of three BAFTAs. He was so chuffed, he named his cockapoo Baffy. Netflix specials followed, as did World Tours, Primetime TV and a podcast. Now, in 2026, Gilligan is launching the biggest year of his career to date with a global tour, a major new partnership with Netflix and a feature documentary which will offer a glimpse behind the scenes of the 37-year-old who cites his comedy heroes as Dave Chappelle and Lee Evans.

2:57It's not bad for someone still three years shy of his 40th birthday and for whom success was never guaranteed. Just 10 years ago, Gilligan was broke and grappling with credit card debt, taking every retail job he could just to make ends meet. I always worked in retail, Primark, the Apple Store, Reese, he recalls. It's all about how you sell the product to them. When you do stand-up, it's like selling a piece of clothing, except that you're selling yourself. Mo Gilligan, welcome to How to Fail. Oh, wow, that was so nice. Hearing it all back and I was like, oh, wow, like I've done all that stuff and that is me because it's quite easy to forget a little bit.

3:40You were able to reflect. Yeah, I really appreciate that. Thank you. Oh, thank you for being so appreciative. Well, it's interesting that because reflection, it's something that you struggle with and it pertains to one of your failures, but we'll come on to that later. I wanted to start with you selling yourself. So if you're an item of clothing in Rees, how are you going to sell yourself to me? What is it that makes Mo Ginnigan Mo Ginnigan? I think it's a combination of things I feel like you need a bit of charisma I think charisma is definitely the thing that gets people's attention I feel like you can make anything can add a bit of charisma and a bit of jazz to whatever it is a black suit but you make it look cool with a black shirt and you open up the tie and you do a black pocket square so already you're like oh this is all black but I see these little details in it and I feel like that's what I've always tried to add to whatever I try to do do you know what I mean like when it comes to comedy I want to make people laugh but I also love a bit of music I'm not a musician but I want to add that little jazz to it just to make something so simple just seem so seamless and quite fun transparency I feel like when I worked in retail, the more I was transparent with a customer, the more they would buy.

5:04And I think that's how people buy into you. You know, the more transparent, you know, I'd have customers in some of the places I worked at. And they'd say, oh, I really want to get this item. And I'd be like, listen, I'll be honest, man. This one's basically the same, you know, it's half the price. And they sit there and go, what? Are you serious? Like, you shouldn't say that. And I'm like, yeah, but I'm just here to, I'm here to give you what you've come in for. And that's just customer service. That's all I do. And I think it's the same with my stand-up. I've always tried to be transparent with my audience when I'm on stage.

5:35You know, when I talk about my special, I talk about going to LA and I was like, whoa, I'm in LA, here I am. But then quickly you're like, I don't know if I can fit into this mold. I don't know if I'm cool enough because you have to be very cool and there's the parties and you have to be great at networking and going to something. And yes, I'm great on stage when it comes to my craft and writing material, but telling me to go in a room and go and network with everyone by force, I can't do that. I just want to just talk to people. Hey, what's up? What'd you do? Hey, how you finding the event? So I think transparency is always in there.

6:16And then lastly, I guess it's just, I guess it's just old fashioned charm. it's the smallest thing I learnt it actually weirdly when I worked in Joe Malone Joe Malone when we used to sell a product they used to put this tissue paper and then spritz it and it was like so jazzy but you put it in and you tied a bow and customers would be like why did you do that and I was like so when you so what we'd do is let's say they bought a candle which is like lime basil mandarin so you'd get that scent and you spray it on there, you put it in a bag, you stuff it and put a bow on it. And then customers say, why do you, why do you spritz it with that?

6:58Is that because when you open it, you know what it smells like straight away. And that things like that used to make me sit and go, wow, that's so charming. That's so nice to do for a customer. You don't have to, but those little things I always wanted to implement just within myself, but also what I do on stage, have a bit of charmer. I have this segment when I jump on the stage and I ask people where they're from and I say I need single guys because single guys don't ever make noise and there's always one guy who goes yeah I'm like oh who are you what's your name and I talk to him and I say listen I hope you enjoy the rest of your show and throughout the rest of the show like all the drinks are on me tonight so it's it's about making someone feel really cool and special in that moment because I think the audience see it as like oh he's gonna get him he's gonna get him but it's kind of it's like a uno reverse he's like I am gonna get him but I'm gonna make him feel like the coolest person in the room and it and it goes back to retail like selling yourself you've bought this item and now you feel like a million dollars hopefully you'll then go back and tell your friends and say oh man i met this guy and you know he said to put the pocket square and open the button oh he's just mad cool and i think it's the i learned a lot of that i'd probably say in retail as well that is such an amazing answer it was like you had sorry it was a bit long was You know, it's amazing because when I was thinking of what my first question was going to be, I was like, that's quite a tough one.

8:22You just nailed it. But that reminds me of something that I read that you said about performing comedy to the black community. And I think you were asked a question about whether you sort of poke jabs at the audience. And you said, no, no, no, because my community, they get dressed up nice to come out. And I would never disrespect them like that. I thought that was so interesting. Oh yeah, I think my audience are predominantly a working class audience. I know they're the audience who wait a long time to come to shows. They are like, I've got a babysitter. You know, Shanice got her nails done. Taryn got his hair cut.

9:02And we plan to come to this event. We've even got a meal before. I feel like I'll be doing that audience a disservice going out there and being like hey like let me get you let me get you let me get you let me get you because that's just never where I've found my joy on stage don't get me wrong there's sometimes I've I've done this this craft and there is someone who says something and I'm like well I've got to say something back it's just the art of stand-up it's the it's the it goes back to the old-fashioned like you know you're the the the the jester performing to the king a little bit you know if your audience see that you can't handle the pressure if someone says something then it's like off with your head so I have to really prove to you and it's like oh no no there's still a boundary here but also I really want to make people feel cool I think it's the nicest feeling ever as opposed to like oh well if he's gonna get you he might get us so let's not look at him so um I've always shied away from being a comedian that just wants to poke fun of my audience let's talk about where your comedy started because it brings us to your first failure yeah which is dyslexia but specifically asking for help in school because you didn't realize that's what you had and that sort of my understanding is what led you into wanting to make people laugh.

10:34Yeah, yeah. Tell us about school, first of all. I'm so excited I get to speak to you because I live in Lambeth and I've also interviewed Ashley Walters, who I know is part of your story. So tell us about school and what that was like for you. School was great. I went to a really good primary school, which is Dog Kennel Hill. So diverse. Like when I think of it now, I grew up with kids of all backgrounds, faiths, religions, and it helped because my mum worked there as well. So what did she do? So my mum was a teaching assistant, but all the kids would come up to me and be like, oh yeah, your mum's so cool, man.

11:10And the older kids would be like, hey, hey, you all right? Are your mum, oh yeah, yeah, I know your mum's cool, man. And that was like a, oh wow, man, like people really like that. You know, on a Saturday, people would see my mum and just want to say hi. You know, the kids would be like, hi, hello. Yeah, hello, Mrs. Gilligan. and I'll be like yeah that's that's my mom like I definitely had learning difficulties at that time as well um I didn't really know I did I used to just talk and it's probably until I probably got about I'd say about eight nine when the teacher then would say yeah you've got to sit on this table and everyone else on the table had learning difficulties I think that was the first time I really knew like I knew that I kind of needed help and then as I got a little bit older I would then sit with a helper who sits with us he would sit with us and all the other children needed help and that was like my first indication of like oh I want to I want to be on that table them lot are doing the work by themselves but we're kind of we we kind of have like a child minder on our table a little bit but I'd always give credit to a primary school teacher that I had called Miss Steyer she had a son who had a disability so when it came to dyslexia she was great at having learning and teaching methods that was different I'd never seen before it was incorporating colours and I always remember she used to tell these really we'd have this story time and I think that was the beginning of my like creativity because it was towards, you know, we'd have this, it was called silent reading.

12:52It was like, okay, silent reading, everyone must. And I was like, I want to talk, man. I want to like tell this Biff Chippin Kippur story to someone I'm sitting next to. But I'll never forget, she used to do this thing towards the end of the lesson. And she'd read a book and she'd tell a story. And it was great because I started learning about so many books, but it was a way she would act out the characters and the imagination. that for me as a kid was like oh this is really cool there is a book called it might be called the railway children yeah i think and i remember her telling us that book but she would act out the voices and everything and i was like wow this is so insightful the way that you're turning this into a thing and it's interesting how once i'd got to secondary school you get a little bit more freedom now and I've got some new friends I think early on I then got to it's like where I've got art I do like a bit of art but I like talking and I like having a laugh with my friend Troy that I sit next to and Troy is quite like me that freedom mixed with the stories of like a missed diet who tells these vivid imagine these stories from a book you bring that together and it was this me wanting to entertain people where I can talk and I can and I think that's where the neglect of not wanting to learn subjects I just wasn't interested in I think anything I was interested in I was really I was there for it did you know you had dyslexia then no so I only really knew what dyslexia was once I'd left school and I was like oh there's a thing for this because other than that we just it was just called learning difficulties so I used to go to this place um in my school which was for kids who had learning difficulties but it was also this hub where if you got sent out you could go in there and be like oh miss I got sent out they'd be like oh it's all right you can go on the go on the computer so it was like all right so sometimes you'd be like I don't really want to learn French man because it was a lot of the teaching assistants who was in who was in this learning centre, it was like its own room.

15:03And they were so chill. It just felt like you was in this room and it was just like all your mum's friends. You'd be like, you're right, Mo? How are you? Oh, man, I got kicked out of French, man. It's all right. Go on Google if you want. Really? And you just go on Google Images and type Lamborghinis. And then you'd be in there with all the other kids that clearly had learning difficulties. And some of them might show it with being destructive in class. You might be talking. You might be a student who, you know, was going through something. But a lot of the teachers didn't have the patience. So they said, listen, get out.

15:41And we'd all just end up there in this hubbub. But it was only until probably, I think I left school at like 16. I was like, oh, this thing is called dyslexia. I didn't know that when I was 14. The reason that I mentioned Ashley Waters is because you were at Pimlico Academy. Yeah, he went to my school. And that's where he went to. Yeah, yeah. And you both have the same drama teacher. That's right. Yeah, Miss Simpson. Tell us about Miss Simpson and the impact she had on you. Oh, Miss Simpson is incredible. She is a drama teacher who felt like she knew the students. And I'm not saying that the other teachers didn't, because there's some other great teachers in the school.

16:20Mr. Fern, he was our form tutor, our art teacher. He was just mad cool, just so relaxed. But Miss Simpson was different because it felt like she knew the kids' environments and she knew what they could excel in. And she wouldn't force the kids who didn't want to do the lessons to do it. It was like, oh, if you don't want to do drama, that's OK. But maybe you could help of setting up a scene. How about that? And that's showing a child that like, hey, you know you're directing, but they don't know that. You don't know that when you're 13, 14. She always would just give everyone a job. and it was the first teacher that really like planted a seed in me at a really young age and she held me back.

17:04We had performed in our hall for one lesson. I used to love doing any of the plays where I could be like a character. One of my early inspirations was Robin Williams. I thought Robin Williams with like voices and impressions and Jim Carrey, they were like my two favorites and i'd probably say eddie murphy and um i used to love doing anything that was like a character or um you know especially because we got to get the mats out so if there was that a time to get the mats out it was like all right so you're gonna hit me and i'm just gonna fall and that's that's gonna be the thing that i get to do everyone got to leave in this one lesson it was like okay cool guys go to lunch and she said oh wait i want to speak to you and i thought i'm in trouble and she said look mo you're about to choose your subjects for gcse and i think you should really look at choosing drama and I was like oh she said I really like drama and she's like yeah you know you're very very good at it but also like I feel like you have something with this and you should look at pursuing it and that was the first teacher that had told me like and said you're really good at this and that moment has never left me I remember it very vividly I was I really liked I was just buzzing I'll never forget it um and yeah she's the reason why I am in the place where I am right now because I'd never had anyone tell me that before you were good at something I it definitely changed my life because it was a point in my life where I was wasn't wasn't good at maths wasn't good at english um didn't have the confidence of of a child when it came to education where I felt like, oh, I'm smart.

18:51I didn't. I've always felt like I'm quite bright and I was all switched on. But at that age, I never felt like, oh, I'm like a smart kid too. You know, it was like you're either academically smart or other. That was like the first moment of feeling like, oh, I belong. I don't have to just be book smart. teachers can be superheroes and I think it's so special that you've paid tribute to two of them there this episode is brought to you by Shopify starting something new can feel terrifying whether you're launching a new idea brand product or podcast whatever it is you can never be 100 % sure it will work out and at some point you have to take a huge leap of faith trust me I know when When I started this podcast, I wasn't sure anyone would listen or even care.

19:43It would have helped me so much to have a partner like Shopify on my side to help. Shopify helps you find your customers with easy to run email and social media campaigns. Something I really love is they have award winning 24-7 customer support. A massive help if you panic about something and they're even there in the middle of the night. It's time to turn those what-ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your£1 per month trial today at shopify.co.uk slash fail. That's shopify.co.uk slash fail. I'm also interested in your parents and your childhood away from school. We started off this conversation talking about charm.

20:32and you chatted about your mum, but it sounds like your dad was very charming too. Yeah, my dad is very smart. He's a very smart man. I'm talking about book knowledge smart. He's very confident, but also I think when it comes to things like fitness, I always get that from my dad because he used to do a lot of long distance running and people would just see my dad in and around like South East or Southwest London because he'd wrap up his locks he'd put on like a Nike tracksuit and I say yeah tracksuit and you're talking like 25 30 degree heat and you just see him running in South London and people like yeah I see your dad I see your dad I see your dad running yeah but I definitely think I get my charm from my mum more so because my mum was very like my mum is very charismatic where my mum kind of talks to people like she knows them It sounds like a childhood safe in the knowledge that you were loved.

21:35Yeah. But was it safe in other ways? Yeah, I lived in an area where everyone was kind of in the same environment. So a lot of working class families on a big council estate. And you had a lot of other council estates just next to it, basically. And in and around the area. And yeah, everyone kind of looked out for each other. And what is fatherhood like for you now? Oh, fatherhood is great. Fatherhood is so, it's like, it's the one part of life I never knew about until you experience it. No one can tell you you can't learn it in a book. It is experiencing it in real time. I think knowing that I am my children's universe.

22:22Like they learn from me. They see it from me. That's beautiful. when they grow up it's whatever I tell them and they experience that they're only going to see from me and I think that is such a a gift that I didn't know I needed to have and it's interesting with like my children where you know my daughter she's so young she's like six months but like congratulations oh thank you like her thing is just touching my beard and there used to be a time where i'd be like okay cool and now i'm just i just don't care i just like she just wants to just touch it until she can grab it that's all she wants to do and it realized you're like well this is what this is for for her to touch daddy's beard do you know what i mean and like my my son is he just turned two and he's at an age where like he's kind of you know he's talking and stuff but you know went to uh take him to get his hair cut for the first time last week and i you know the barbershop is a place that I spent many a Saturdays where my mum would do a shop and leave me there.

23:28And I'm like, I'm here with all the grown folk and taking my son to get his hair cut. And even before going in the shop, he was like, oh no, I'm scared. I'm scared. I'm like, oh, okay. So just sitting with him and seeing him experiencing, you know, the barbershop essentially, which is a hub for, you know, the black male community where as a child, you hear conversations that you're like, oh, wow, these are some grown conversations. But everyone gets treated the same once you're in the chair. You can be an elderly man, you still get a haircut. You'd be a young kid, you still get your haircut. And seeing him scared, but also knowing he just grabbed onto me and that I'm his universe, I'm bringing him into my universe.

24:08So he's experiencing this in real time. And it's just those little gifts of life that you sit there and you go, wow, this is an exciting moment. in you know you get to see experience it I don't know for me it's like an out-of-body experience if you ever watch a um like a wildlife documentary you see the elephant going to the water to the water hole for the first time and it gets stuck and it's like it's all right because the mum elephant or the dad elephant knows how to get it out but this elephant doesn't know yet and it's like that elephant it's the it's this is the universe and I'm going to show you how to do this and you'll learn in real time so the next time it happens and I think um that's what I really enjoy about fatherhood at the moment I really really really enjoy that oh that's lovely oh thank you it really is it's very moving um your your second failure is not learning about money as a teenager and and where that led you to so so tell us about this Mo sorry for the for the seamless link from like the beauty of fatherhood to credit card debt so you left school at 16 yeah and was it after that that you started getting into money trouble no i think at 16 i'd i'd stayed at school i went to sixth form which was great sixth form we had this thing called ema so you get a little bit of money 30 pound every week and then college and then once I'd left college it was probably university that I'd get this you know get a student loan and I think because I stayed at home when I was at uni I think if I would have got the experience of being on the campus and having to understand that I need a bit of money for my books and a bit of money to maybe go out and have a drink and this is what it's like to be broke.

26:05I had the comfort of being at home. So when I got my student loan, I come from a mentality of being, I wouldn't say addicted, but it's definitely those shiny things that you're drawn into. It's like a magpie mentality of like, oh, I need that, that's shiny. And that's those materialistic things that you grow up never getting. But the minute you get money, that's the first thing you use, you go straight to that. And that started when I was probably in uni because the minute I got my student loan the first day I got it me and a friend of mine Stephen we went shopping that was the first thing we like oh my god we got our money straight to Oxford Street we went to every shop you could think of um and I just having bags of bags and you know like now I'm at a place where if I ever get a lot of stuff and I go to a shop I'm like just chuck this all in one bag also most of the time I'm like let's just get this all online anyway but this was at a time I was like I've got a French Connection bag I've got H &M bag do you know what I mean I got JD Sports I got and I'm walking around yeah it was just like fulfilling the things I couldn't have as a as a child of like I want those air max 90s I want to go in the shop and not really look at the price because I can just get that thing and I think I wouldn't say it started from there but the money management was definitely the origin story from that point I'd probably say I think being in the job of stand-up didn't help because when you first start you get paid cash in hand which is amazing when you first tell a joke and a promoter says oh great thanks a lot man there's 50 pounds and you said oh my god I've just earned this money in my hand from telling some material but because the job is so volatile where in your head you're being told you're going to get paid 200 pounds and the day before the show the promoter says we didn't set enough tickets show's cancelled and now you're like oh i kind of got a phone contract out though and i've kind of needed that money and there's nothing you can do you can't there's no there's no union you just say all right oh all right can you get in for the next one when you've got to go to a show and you are in the middle section you're only going to get paid 100 pounds and 50 pounds of that is going to be on a train ticket.

28:25The other 50 pounds is for that phone bill for the last month that you was meant to get. But now you're behind. So I think the art form that I chose also doesn't help for money management. You can definitely go down a bit of a kind of black hole. So yeah, you then get a credit card. Yeah, and that just feels like free money. But you're like, it's not free because I should use this credit card for the emergencies of, you know, I didn't get that gig where I was going to get£200, use a credit card, pay the phone bill. But again, it's like, well, didn't do that gig, use a credit card, can now get some trainers and pay the phone bill and worry about the rest later.

29:10And then I think you just end up playing catch up. Also, I think because the career that you've chosen, I'm imagining there were very few role models that you could reach for and think oh that's how they did it I mean I don't know how many stand-up comics you actually knew this yeah there wasn't yeah that's a great point actually I think stand-up is this this illusion where you just you see on stage and that's it there isn't it's only now probably the last 10 years that it's documented how much you know some of the top 10 comedians earn but i think it's always kind of comedians don't really talk about that then you know they're not trying to be the 20 million pound sorry 20 million a movie yeah you know an actor that's not something that's spoken about within the depths of comedy it's like no your job is to be funny also you have to dress down as a comic I was also told that it was like, no, no, no, don't dress up.

30:12You've got to give the appearance to your audience that, you know, you can't be too flashy. But then I also had the black circuit where I came from where it was like, no, you kind of have to be a bit flashy because you can't be raggedy. Yeah. Like you have to like, so I had, you know, comics telling me, yeah, you want to wear a shirt and like some shoes. So then you're like, all right, I've got up my game. I've got to buy some shoes, get a shirt for my performance, some nice jeans, a t-shirt. at a time when you're like, I've spent all my money on this outfit and I can't really wear it at the next one.

30:44How bad did it get, this debt spiral? It got bad in terms of, once I got the credit card, I didn't really understand the credit card. And plus I got a credit card, which it was kind of aimed at someone like me. Do you know what I mean? When it's like, we're talking like, I don't know, the interest was something stupid. It was ridiculous. There's 250 % APR or something like that. And you're like, oh, at the time, you're like, it's minor, man. It's only until the year it kicks in. But then I'd borrow money from like a money lender, which was super easy to do because, again, it's aimed at someone who doesn't have money.

31:25And then I'd borrow money from another lender to then borrow them, pay back the money. and then when I'd get money from a gig or a show, then I'd have to pay that money back out plus interest. So it wasn't bad in a sense that I was crippling in debt, but it was definitely playing catch up where you're like, I really need this show to come through. And it was just hoping you're like, please don't let it snow. I remember once I was like, oh, it's going to snow. And it snowed and all my shows got cancelled. and you're like oh man I've missed out on 300 pounds and that's at a time where I probably owed 300 pounds back to like a money lender so it's not I never got into like you know the masses of debt like 10 grand's of worth of debt but I was always big into things like trainers and a lot streetwear fashion places like supreme and and a ton of like Jordan crepes and they're things I've just like liked and collected so it got to a place where it was just like I've got to sell those nice trainers that I've always liked to make some money and pay back whoever I need to pay back or I need to get to this gig and I don't have the money so let me sell this really nice coat that I got because I can get the money back so I did have an element of hustle at the same time and not just oh I need to borrow money I need to also hustle in a sense of I'm going to camp out for these trainers because chances are they're probably going to be worth over a thousand pounds and that money it's at that flip of they only cost 200 pounds I can even make a thousand pounds for those trainers pay back some of the debt to the credit lenders and still have money for myself so So yeah, it's like a level of hustle, but it's also not great at the same time.

33:19When was the first time you can remember not worrying about money?

33:29I was on the bus and I just finished probably the first leg of my tour. 2016 was when everything really... No, 2017 is when it happened. And 2016 was like the spark of doing a video that went viral. But at 2017, everything happened so quick. I quit my job. I went to America for the first time for a brand partnership. Sorry to interrupt. And the video that went viral, was it the MC's one that Drake? Different types of MC's, yeah. Yeah. That was the one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Incredible. Yeah. So that went viral. You quit your job. That went viral 2016, December of 2016. Still working in retail. Last place I was in was Levi.

34:11And that was just due to getting the chance of, you know, small opportunities. BBC One Extra was like, oh, why don't you come in and do like a, it's kind of like a demo to be a radio and they train you how to use the desk. And I was going in there once a week and I was like, oh, I could see that being my career path. Again, all the videos keep going viral, but I'm still working in retail. And I just said, look, can I change some of these dates? and they just wasn't having it, you know, to manage at the time. So I said, look, I'm just going to quit. And it was definitely this moment of like, am I doing the right thing?

34:49Because part of me was like, if I'm going to do this, I have to do this. I can't have the comfort of having a retail job right now. But I just knew there was something that was going to happen for me. And I did have this, I had this show that I used to do with my friends in Brixton in the Ritzy Cinema upstairs. And it was mainly their show and I'd hosted it. And I put it on my social media. I was like, oh, I'm going to be hosting this show. And for the first time, it sold out. And my friends were like, oh, the show sold out. Okay, well, let's split the money. And I'd earned like£500 through just splitting the money with my friends.

35:25And I was like, wow, I've just earned a lot. So I started doing my own small comedy shows, which I was still doing that before. And then that sold out. And I was like, oh my God, like I've earned more than I used to when I was even working at retail. And these are just my small shows that I'd do in Shoreditch. And yeah, 2017, I then met, I went to a meeting with Live Nation, had an idea for the tour and how I wanted it to be and where we could go to and how we could grow it. And I was very transparent and being in those rooms of saying, look, I have an idea of how this can work. I'm not a social media act.

36:02I'm a stand-up comic. And they were like, cool, we've worked with social media people before, it doesn't really work. And I was like, trust me, I have this idea. Small places, we start off up and down and then we just see what happens. Tour went on sale, London sold out in like two minutes. And in my head I was like, nah, it must be like a fake thing. Because I used to never believe that whole, tour sold out, two minutes. I was like, nah. Only now that I know it works how it works I get it but that year I had all this viral success but I was still technically broke I didn't have any money and between the time of me putting the tour on and being on tour that is the most brokers I've ever been I couldn't put on any shows didn't have any trainers to sell it was like rock bottom the what the worst financial place I think I've ever been even when I was in debt I was still able to keep my head afloat and um I said to my manager I was like look I'm doing all these shows this is great but I am so broke and now the credit card debt is really starting to pile up and and it did actually at that point and she was like okay cool um it's you know we see because obviously like what we can do in terms of giving you like an advance I say an advance it was the tickets already sold and um through my main current account and then i get this text which was like oh you are um i was basically level of my overdraft limit and i was like well i've never got this text before your your your your overdraft limit is at zero i got this text and i was like what it's always been like in the minus and then i checked my my account and i was like oh my god oh my god and it definitely felt like a willy wonka moment I've got the golden ticket and that was like I'd say that was like my first big check wow and um yeah I don't think I've definitely had money worries but not since that time it's never been as bad as it was when I was younger you talk a lot in your comedy about code switching and you do it in a very funny way which is lucky isn't it given you're a comedian but obviously there is as with all the greatest comedy this serious underlying point and i suppose i wanted to ask you how important it is for you to be a noticeably successful black british male comic all of those things yeah at once it's a lot sometimes there are times where i do have like a this is this is a tiring job at times because i've been doing this job for almost um in terms of on on a mainstream platform anyway just over 10 years and sometimes it does feel hard because you still have to feel like you have to prove yourself in a place where you're like oh like no i've had my own show and like yeah but I don't know if you can do the Brits.

39:10He's like, no, I've hosted live TV shows. Yeah, but I don't know if you can host a primetime show on BBC though. He's like, no, no, I've got a BAFTA. Yeah. Got a free mate. Yeah. And it does feel like you do definitely have to keep constantly proving yourself because the minute I started getting success, it was almost this, yeah, but you're only there because you're ticking a box, essentially. Who's saying that to you? These are things that you would see online, you know, if you get, like, for example, when you win a BAFTA, you'd get some people that would say, oh, yeah, but, you know, you're just ticking the box.

39:46That's why you've got, you know, and those things are sometimes hard to muster because you're like, no, like I'm really good in my field, you know, like not even trying to hype myself up, but I put a lot of time and effort into the execution of something that feels so seamless and so effortless when it's displayed on television. and that is sometimes quite hard there is also the pressure of being on you know platform tv knowing that you have to represent your community in a space that isn't always represented but also you're in the forefront of mainstream television on a saturday night where little boys and girls up and down the country are not seeing someone that feels like oh my god he looks like my dad or my uncle or like he looks like my neighbor well, oh, wow, that is, I've not seen this on television.