Nick Grimshaw - 'I told The Guardian I was gay before I told my parents'

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0:35welcome to how to fail the podcast that firmly believes that failing better can help us succeed better too before we get to my wonderful guest just a reminder about my subscriber podcast failing with friends where my guest and i answer your questions and offer advice on some of your failures too. Here's a bit of Nick Grimshaw to pique your interest. Forget it, like you deserve better. This is, stop wasting your energy on this. Do send your failures in to get advice from one of my esteemed guests. Follow the link in the podcast notes or look out for my call outs once a month on Instagram for quickfire questions.

1:13Thank you so, so much. When Nick Grimshaw was 13, he was taken from his hometown of Oldham to London by his dad to watch a football match. The teenage Grimshaw persuaded his father to take a detour so they could look through the windows of the BBC Radio 1 offices. As he told his dad with great conviction, that's where he was going to present the breakfast show when he grew up. And it turned out exactly to plan. After studying communication and Media Studies at the University of Liverpool, Grimshaw started as an intern for MTV. By 2007, he joined Radio 1 to host the station's youth strand. He rose through the ranks and by 2012 was at the helm of The Breakfast Show.

1:56His six-year tenure was marked both by the fact he was the show's first gay presenter and by his ability to broadcast live, even after having been out all night with celebrity pals like Alexa Chung or Harry Styles. His memoir, Soft Lad, even revealed the time Lady Gaga asked his parents if her tit-tate was on straight. It's an authenticity that has made Grimshaw, or Grimmy as he's known, feel like the nation's friend. Whether he's on Gogglebox with his niece Liv, hosting the Dish podcast with chef Angela Hartnett, or sidetracked with his old mate Annie Mack, his humour and kindness is always inclusive rather than mocking.

2:36The great thing about my job, he has said, was the more I was myself, the better the reaction. Nick Grimshaw, welcome to How to Fail. Oh, thank you. Thanks for that intro. It's a pleasure. Wow, it was like I died. Well, don't speak to you soon, maybe. Maybe. Maybe this will be a podcast first and you'll die on it. Yeah, fingers crossed. It's such a pleasure to have you here. We've been trying for a while. I've been on The Dish, most fun I've ever had in podcast form. We loved you on that. That was fun because it was a Friday too. It was a Friday. It was a Friday. And you made me the best vodka martini I think I've ever tasted.

3:12It's really good. I wanted to end on that quote about realizing that the more yourself you were, the more accepted you were, because I think it's such a powerful concept. And it's definitely something that I have felt doing this podcast. And I wonder where you realized that. When did you realize that that sort of authenticity went hand in hand and with acceptance? I think when I was writing my book, which was two years ago now, it was the first time I'd like stopped and thought back about myself, not really thought about my life or like, who am I? What are my thoughts on things? So it was the first time that I'd sort of stopped to take stock and think back.

3:56And I thought way back to, you know, I really sat one day in my kitchen and tried to remember like my earliest memories. And I'd like practice every day to try and like zone back and remember childhood or remember like, where did I first listen to the radio? Or when did I first hold my mum's hand? And I was like trying to like transport myself back all the time because I'm quite bad at remembering stuff. And I remembered quite a lot at school. Once I realised I was gay when I was at school, I think I spent a lot of time trying to disguise that. so not being myself so I think you sort of live in like a double life and one is you're like I'm gay and then the other one is just this like what I thought like a straight man behaved like so I thought about that a lot and I was like wow that must have been quite complicated and weird to for my brain to have like this almost facade of this character and to try and talk about football or to try and talk about FHM.

5:00I had to go on by FHM and be like, oh, oh, oh. High Street honeys. Yeah, like I had to try and engage in those conversations. So I was really thinking back to that. And then I was trying to think like, why did I want to do radio? Why was I drawn to radio? Radio one specifically, like what did I like? And I was drawn to people that were, I think, unapologetically themselves, like Sarah Cotts. And I remember listening to her when I was going to college and just being like, I just like her. She sounded like someone I could have been in college with. You know, she was going out with her friends at the weekend, maybe a bit hungover on the Monday.

5:36And I really related to it. And I think it was her honesty that I connected with. And then when I started doing radio and telly a few years later, when I was like probably like 22, 23, I was really nervous, obviously, because you're in this like weird situation where there's cameras and a microphone. and it's you know quite unnatural really but I just found when I was myself more I it was easier to do that job that's so powerful I read somewhere that the partying that I mentioned in the introduction in your radio one breakfast show days was important for you in terms of that journey of acceptance yeah I think so I think it was I think I always felt like the odd one out at school maybe So I think I'd never felt like I fitted in until I left school and was probably going out.

6:31Yeah, it was when I felt really accepted because we all had this passion of clubbing, essentially. You mentioned FHM and football and your sexuality. Can you tell us the David Beckham poster story? Oh, yeah. So basically, I grew up going to Catholic schools. And so I had this sort of like guilt about being gay. And I was like, I'd pray to be like cured or like, why me? I'd be like, no, I don't want to be gay. I'd pray for it to be like, you know, taken away from me. And I remember thinking, well, if I try actively to be heterosexual, maybe it'll budge over a bit. Plot ruiner, it didn't. I remember being like, well, if I go and like get into football, like if I remember like trying to sit and watch it and like like it and copy like, you know, the way my brother and dad were sat watching it.

7:24And I remember going to get a football magazine and I thought, well, I'll just learn about this. I'll just learn heterosexuality from Shoot magazine. It was a really unnatural read to me because I didn't care. I was really trying to force it in. So it felt a bit like homework. And then I remember flicking through and seeing a picture of David Beckham, like post-match, I think with a cup. So he'd won something. And he was playing for Man United. And I was like, just totally transfixed and like drawn into it. And I think I was too young, or maybe I didn't even realize I fancied him. I didn't know what it was, but I just knew that I like was like, wow.

8:03It was like, almost like a magic eye picture where you're sort of just like drawn in. And I remember showing it to my mom and saying, can I put this on my bedroom wall? And my mom being like, go and ask your dad. Because it was like, looking back, I think he was like maybe wet and he was like black and white. And he was quite like, you know, It's quite a sexy picture, probably. And I remember showing it to my dad and my dad was in the garden. And I was like, can I put that on my wall? And my dad was like, you can, but don't use Blu-Tac. So his main issue was Blu-Tac. He wasn't like, why do you want to put a semi-nakey David Beckham on the wall?

8:35He was like, you can adorn it, but watch the wallpaper. Wait, so I don't want to, let's just fixate on the wrong detail here. But what did you use to fix the poster? Well, that's why we're here. I mean, I don't know. Because I would have said no sellotape. or maybe he said no sellotape maybe he said no sellotape and do use blu-tac maybe he said no sellotape use blu-tac yeah okay i want to talk more about your parents but let's do that as part of your first failure your first failure is your maths gcse nick yes yeah and this has stayed with me because when i was asked to think about my failures i was like right what have i done i had quite a lot actually but maths GCSE was one that I think has stuck with me I failed it I had to reset it and it made me feel really stupid and really thick and I think I still think I'm really stupid and I think that stems from failing my maths GCSE and it being a disaster a disaster for everyone at school in my family my dad was like I can't believe you've failed your maths GCSE It was like, yeah, I know.

9:45I still can't take a phone number down fast. I think I'm numerically challenged. You've also given me four failures rather than three, which I think is quite funny in this context. Are we going to do an extended episode? Yeah. So other than your dad saying, gosh, I can't believe it, what else made it feel desperate? What was the reaction of teachers at school? There was like a sense of disappointment and that I was a bit stupid for failing it, I think. And it was like... How badly did you fail it? yeah I think bad I think I like didn't get a mark maybe I did all right in everything else two A's the rest B's an F in French U or whatever it was called in maths so they were fine but maths was was my sister was good at maths my brother was good at maths my dad was good at maths so it felt like oh you've let down the Vorderman family okay so I yeah I remember I remember my sister teaching me at the dining table I'm being like why don't you just get it just get it and I was like I can't get it she's like why can't you get it so it was always like uh it was always expected that I should be good at it maybe and then when I failed it I just felt it was another thing for me that made me feel really different yes like oh I'm gay and thick yes you know that's what it made me feel like for me I was like oh I can't even add up I so relate in that kind of mindset where I can't get my head around an Excel spreadsheet.

11:12If someone will ask me, what's the royalty agreement on your books? I'm like, I don't know. I don't. It's so bad. It's so bad. Like it's so bad. And I don't mean this in a flippant way because I hate when people are flippant about not knowing things, but genuinely mortgages, anything like that. My accountant has to get like a whiteboard out like I'm full and be like, right, here's your money. you earn it from here I'm like yep and then and then I'm gone I'm like I don't I don't get it and I just don't know my brain I'm exactly the same in a way I have to really concentrate

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12:39tell me a bit more about your parents and what they're like I know you have an amazing relationship with your mom and I know your dad very sadly passed in 2016 but what was your relationship with them like around this time that we're talking about apart from the disappointment with maths So I always had a really great relationship with them, like always. And, you know, still do have an amazing relationship with my mum. All we do is miss each other's phone calls. That's what we've been doing. She just called me as I came into this room. But yeah, we speak every day. I speak to like, we've got a family WhatsApp group that goes off every day.

13:13And we've always been really close and always really got on and always like, you know, always had blazing arguments. But then get over them within three minutes and then we're best friends again. No one in my family is remotely interested or gassed or wants to hear about radio or who I've interviewed at all. And when I was younger, I was like, aren't you bothered? And now I'm really happy that they're actually like, I don't really care. Like they're genuinely not bothered. So I've always had a great relationship with them. My dad was really hardworking. My dad was very particular as well in that he'd have like, so he had to have all his clothes facing the same way.

13:52And he'd worked really hard. He'd come from, you know, super humble working class beginnings. He was born in the 40s, 1941. It was a war baby. So he had a really hard childhood and really grafted and did really well. And then he sort of instilled that or wanted to instill that in me, my brother and sister. It was expected that you would work your absolute hardest. School was really important. and what you look like going to school was really important. And my mum was like this too. Like you'd have to have really clean shoes. Your uniform was completely ironed and perfect every single day. You would get home, you'd do your homework.

14:36You'd have to be thinking about what GCSEs are you doing? What A-levels are you doing? How are you going to do them? Are you going to be a doctor? Are you going to be a lawyer? Are you going to run a business? Like start thinking about it now. So they were very ambitious, I guess, and really hardworking. And that was instilled in us to want to look really good and to work really hard. Because I guess that's what they had to do. You know, they both came from really poor backgrounds. So they wanted to look good and they wanted to work hard and they wanted to achieve. So that trickled down to us.

15:11And when I was not interested in studying hard, my dad was like, you are on another planet. Like, why are you listening to music? Like, what are you on about? Like, he thought that was like silly. He was like, get a proper job. So he could not understand me loving radio. And he thought that was a distraction from achieving something good, which was for him to be, you know, a lawyer or a businessman. So he just was like, what are you on about? Did that ever change? Yeah, it did. When I started, when I moved to London, and I say all that with like, you know, he wasn't like how dare you have a dream but i think he was just he'd worked hard he wasn't like don't have a dream or like don't like music you know he loved he loved about five people he loved and people that were really good you know he loved bill withers bob marley ella fitzgerald barbara streisand the beatles that was it is that that's enough so he was like we we've had by a record he'd be like well you've got one you've got loads upstairs why are you getting another one so So he was like, you need five.

16:18Maybe Simon and Garfunkel as well. So he thought stuff was a distraction and not in a killjoyy way. But I think he just wanted the best for us. So when I failed the Maths GCSE, that was a disaster. But then when I failed the Maths GCSE and started to say things like, I want to work in music PR. He was like, what the fuck's music PR? My dad was like, don't work in PR. They're the first people to get fired if a company goes to shit. be a lawyer. You always need a lawyer or be an accountant. So when I moved to London to want to work at MTV, he didn't know what MTV was. He didn't know what a creative industry was.

16:59He didn't, he was like, what the fuck are you talking about? What are graphics for the MTV VMAs? Like he just, he just didn't know what I was on about. So he was just, I think, concerned that I had wasted time, time, money, years to go and do nothing in Camden and get drunk, which is also what I did. When I started doing TV and I started doing E4 music first, I was introducing music videos. He was like, what does that mean? And he was like, you need to get into the BBC, get a proper job, get into the BBC. Once I started doing Sunday nights at the BBC, at Radio 1, he was like, oh, okay. Now, that's a real job.

17:43Like, I get it. I've heard of the BBC, of course. So that sort of validated me to my dad, I think. I mean, it was doing stupid things with N-dubs. It wasn't the Today programme. And is it right, that anecdote that I started off the introduction with about you going to London at age 13 and looking through those doors, looking through the windows of Radio 1, is it correct that your dad reminded you of that when he was dying? Yeah, it is. And it's a total true story. And I know it sounds like something in a made up film. But I came to London with my dad to go to a United away game. And my dad had an A to Z of London.

18:26And I, on the way, got it out and found where Radio 1 was. And was like, we've got to go to Great Portland Street. And I think my dad was like, OK, fine. to like a closed office on a Saturday. And so we went and looked at it. And I remember plotting out on the A to Z. I think they call it manifesting now. I was like, well, I'll live here and then I'll walk there and I'd probably go to this place for lunch. And then I'd go and have my meeting here at this radio station. And I planned it out and marked it all on the A to Z. And I actually did do all those things, which was quite weird. And I was like, I'd probably go to like this cafe here thought I bet Joe Wiley goes there and I'd like really visualize it and I made my dad um take me and I'd actually like forgot about it and then yeah he died in 2016 and he'd had cancer for a while and it'd gone away and he'd had chemo and it came back and it got to a point where we you know we knew he was not going to be with us for much longer and he wanted to be at home and he wanted to be with all the family so we were all with him when he died and I remember coming up from London to be with my dad and talking to him and he reminded me of that story and I'd forgot it and he was like you know I remember you telling me that and you did that and I was like wow so he was proud of you yeah totally yeah yeah and he brought it up yeah like the the day the day before he died yeah there's a lot there's a lot Elizabeth yeah going going on to seamless link yes come on seamless link I didn't know how to move on to that I didn't know how to move on from that memory which must be so precious it's about your sexuality yes so you mentioned being Catholic and praying that you could be straight and i'm just wondering what that conversation was like with your parents then when you had it how soon after the mass gcse did it come or maybe it was before well it was funny because i like i remember speaking to um my sister about it and her saying like something along the lines of i just don't think that you have to like ring my mom and dad and tell them you're gay because she was like, I just think I'd actually be sick if I had to ring my dad and say, hey, dad, just to let you know, I'm having sex with a man at school.

20:57Like, ooh. Like, she was like, I just think it's like too weird. This is Jane again. Yeah, Jane. So she was just like, do you know what I mean? She's like, why should you have to have this like awkward conversation that I don't have to have? And I was like, God, yeah, you're right. She was like, I think just like feel it out or something like that. I can't remember what she said, but I remember thinking like, yeah, like it doesn't have to be this like i have some news i want to kiss men because that's like mortifying as a teenager like straight or gay like i mean maybe parents a bit more modern now but like it would not want to talk to your parents about sex or kissing or anything like that so i never really had the conversation with them ever like i never implicitly sat them down and was like, I have some news.

21:47I can't even remember how it just like became to be talked about. And I remember like really struggling with the concept of coming out when I was younger and whether or not I thought it was, because like the term I struggled with. Yeah. And it was like coming out. I was like, well, I've not been pretending to be straight. Like, yes, at school, but like not to my mum and dad, you know? So it was quite a funny, it was quite a funny conversation to have because I'm like coming it's not like I was coming out at 50 and I'm like oh I've had a realization actually like I've been in sexual relationships and I've had three kids and actually I think I'm gay you know I'd not had any relationship truly I can't remember how it ended up being even talked about I really can't I remember I did an interview and I talked about fancying Frank Ocean and I think Frank Ocean had just wrote the letter that he wrote on a blog or on Tumblr at the time talking about oh the album I just released which everyone loved is actually about um feelings I had for a man and everyone was like what and I remember doing an interview with like the Times or the Guardian or something and being like oh my god like I was sort of in love with him before and like in love with you know his music and I'd be like crying and then I'm like, now he's gay.

23:08I'm like, he could have been thinking about me or something flippant like that. And then my mum and dad were like, can't believe that you've told The Guardian that you're gay officially before you told us officially. So they weren't annoyed about me being gay. They were more like, how did The Guardian or The Times get the scoop above us? That's so funny. Yeah. So they weren't annoyed at all, but they were like, you know, we love you and we are here for you and you should feel like you could tell us you fancy Frank Ocean. Yes. Rather than The Guardian. Yeah, sometimes it's easier to tell the Guardian.

23:39Sometimes it's easier to tell the Guardian. I think that's so well put. And I also have often felt conflicted about that phrase coming out because it implies that you're coming out from a big dark secret. Yeah, like it's a heavy darkness. And straight people don't have to do it. So all of that sort of stuff. And so where are you with your Catholicism now? How do you feel about... I mean, I never have been to church unless my mum struck me as a child. But my mum still goes on a Sunday. but my mum has I think gone since like 1945 like she's going to church on a Sunday if she's in London it's like your Barry's boot camp it's like me with Barry yes you just go yeah so she she won't go like on her holidays and she won't go if she's you know in London with me but if she's at home she'll go and I guess it's different because it's like I guess as well it's a massive part of and the community you know we're from Oldham which is like greater Manchester so everyone at the school knows each other because they all go to the same church so it's it's more of like a community thing as well as a religious experience I think let's move on to your second failure which is your degree yeah so we've moved on from the failed math GCSE to your degree which you which was meant to be business and communication studies yeah what happened yeah so my dad really wanted everyone to go to uni yeah my brother didn't go to uni I never heard the end of it my brother is so smart so intelligent and knows everything about everything.

25:06Like my brother will know about what happened to the Romans, to how Detroit techno came about. Like he is so good. But he was like, I don't want to go to uni. Not interested. So my dad was like, that's a waste. My sister went to uni and she got a first in, I think, business studies, maybe. She's super bright and she went on to have an amazing job in finance. So my dad was like, wow, you better follow in the footsteps of our Jane. I was like, oh, I can't even pass the math GCSE. I can't do a degree. So I wanted to do anything creative. So I wanted to go and do like media studies or marketing or something that, you know, felt I was experiencing in the world.

25:52So I wanted to go make, do a music video degree or something. My dad was like, what the fuck are you talking about? You're going to go and do a proper degree or like don't go at all. So I found this degree at Liverpool, University of Liverpool, which was communication and business studies. And my dad was like, you can't do like a joint honours. That's not a proper degree. And I was like, University of Liverpool is proper uni. It's half business studies. You're happy. Communication studies was basically media studies. What was your dad's job? My dad worked in like sales. Okay. Yeah. So he'd work in sales for, and like marketing as well, I guess, in for like Fyndus and Nestle.

26:35Fyndus. Yeah. Yeah. Stop it. Fyndus crispy pancakes. Fyndus crispy pancakes. Did you eat a lot of those? Did you get those freebies? That's why my brother thinks he's bald because he ate so many of them in the 70s. Yeah. Yeah. We don't have any legality on that. And this episode is sponsored by Fyndus. By Fyndus crispy pancakes. Yes. So I got to do things like political marketing. we'd get to make you know we we we talked about the face magazine and Saatchi and Saatchi and like all this like stuff that I found really exciting and really interesting so that was the deal so I could go to uni as long as I did the business studies half loved the media studies side obviously loved all the extracurricular activities of flyering and djing and doing student radio and loved all that absolutely hated the business studies degree obviously it's harder than gcse maths yeah i did macroeconomics i did macroeconomics i restart the macroeconomics module i think five times and they were getting worse i was getting like seven that's making me feel sick macroeconomics i could not tell you if you had a gun to my head now what that is.

27:49I have no idea. And you know why I did it? Why I picked that module? Because my friend Grania did it. And I was like, oh, that's fun. Grania will be in my class. And that's why I did it. Grania is now chief of the IMF. Yeah, no, yeah, she is. Yeah, she works for the Bank of New York. Does she actually? She does, yeah. She's got a good job. Did that feel again, similar to the Massachusetts E failure, where you were internalizing it and thinking that you weren't good enough? No, I think I'd grown by then. I think I was like, this is not for me. And that's all right. And I think I'd got really into student radio.

28:24I was totally obsessed with music and listening to music and DJing and going out and clubbing. And I had the great advice from my older brother and older sister of like, they were like, don't get a real job. Don't do it. Don't listen to what dad says. We love him. But like, don't do it. My sister was like, don't be an accountant. Just go and do what you want to do. So I was like, you're right. So she was getting me like psyched up to not go and do the business finance route. And I'd started doing work experience at radio stations and a plug-in company in Manchester. And they basically would service music from record labels to radio.

29:04So they were a regional radio company. And I'd work there and I'd assist there in like stickering CDs or writing the blurb for the back of the record. and they looked after like so many interesting exciting people like they did like Depeche Mode and Moby, Goldfrap, Electric Six, Gay Bar. Do you remember Gay Bar? Yeah. So it was quite like a fun time and I was working there in Christmas and Easter and summer holidays and I just loved that and once I started working there and got a taste of going into radio stations and working with artists I was like I can't do macroeconomics so I felt it was I was okay with failing that it's interesting to me that out of the failures you sent me there isn't a professional one and I wonder if that's partly because of the enormous love you have for the form that you find yourself in which is a beautiful thing but there was a point when you took on the breakfast show and I absolutely loved you on the breakfast show and it's because you were a different kind of breakfast show presenter.

30:09And I think part of the nation was probably not ready for that. But there was an interview that you gave after you moved on from the breakfast show, where you said that when you left, you felt like you were Great Britain's most unpopular person. Yeah, yeah. Well, I remember feeling, I'd never thought about listening figures. Like I'd never thought about it. Before I did radio on breakfast show, I'd never done daytime radio so I'd gone from doing a nighttime specialist show which was 10 till midnight and we would play all new music anything you wanted the guests would be you know drunk the guests would come after the gigs the guests would bring random people in who'd come on air you know it was not daytime radio one it's like scheduled and organized and there's five people who work on your show and so it was a real switch up and I never really thought about that so it was a very different show and also it was a very different reaction because at night time you could just chat nonsense do whatever blah blah you forgot like millions of people are listening in the morning and all the newspapers so anything that you said or messed up or if someone gave a date wrong they were like oh they don't even know what day it is and it'd be like this like for raw because you'd said wednesday instead of tuesday or something so it was i'd never thought about the switch up of like the amount of eyes on the show the amount of opinions on the show you know it's such a key part to people's day breakfast radio and I knew that from listening but I'd never thought about oh shit the pressure now is on me you know like when you listen to breakfast radio you know you're so in a routine because you're you're sort of your your way you're leaving your day and starting your day is by the time things happen so routine is so key to it so I think doing a massive switch up of, oh, we're actually going to play loads of music.

32:03It's going to be new music. It's going to be pop stars that maybe are brand new. It was a massive shift in terms of tone of the show. Obviously a different presenter. I was 28. I just turned 28 when I started. And I also wanted to bring some of the nighttime sensibilities. I wanted to bring loads of music. I wanted to play, you know, stuff that I loved on the show. Yeah, it was a massive change. And I remember when the Rayjar figures would come in, I'd never had to think about them before, because you're on at nighttime. And it was like, they've gone down by this amount. And you were like, oh my God.

32:40I was like, I've let down all those people that are relying on Radio One like I always did. Like that I'm letting down, like the people like me who loved Radio One and listened to it for the routine and I was like oh I'd be so embarrassed in the office because about all these people I'll be like here he is ruining the station so that I did feel like that actually yeah that must have been horrible feeling it really was because you were like oh it's a real sucker punch but also what I didn't realize in hindsight you know when Chris Moyles who was on before me when he started YouTube didn't exist so radio was so much more powerful and so much more essential as well so stuff just changed so much which you know at the time I don't think we took into account you know now YouTube on Radio 1 I don't know the stats now because I don't work there but they were like they're fucking huge it's like so huge and it was sort of shifting as a as a beast of what radio was it was no longer just gonna be audio and I remember when my bosses were saying that to me I was like oh they're like just full of it like no one's gonna watch the radio on their phones what are you on about and of course now that's how you consume everything probably on the radio is like YouTube or Instagram or TikTok so I think it was a transitional stage I don't know I guess looking back it was an exciting time to be on because it was changing so much I don't know it did feel like bad it felt bad that you were like oh my god it's in the newspaper that no one's listening to it and you think it's because of you yeah and maybe some of it was because of me maybe people are like don't like you and that's fine i think because you know you know everyone can like you well i don't know anyone who doesn't like you but my dad used to say you can't please all the people all the time no and if you are which is also impossible then you're mediocre because you're just like the common denominator it's so interesting to me that for a lot of your career, you have been seen as the kind of voice of youth.

34:42Yeah. And actually... And now I'm 40. Well, this is the thing. You still look so incredibly young. That is true. And you still do convey that. It is true. But also you had older parents and older siblings. So actually, my impression of you is that you're quite an old soul if you delve beneath the youthful surface. I think I've always felt young because of that. Like I was literally the youngest one in my family. And then, yeah, everything that I did for a while was really youth focused. So when I started Radio 1, it was me and Annie Mack on a Sunday night. And that was like the youth strand of Radio 1, which now is such a mad concept that they'd have a youth strand of Radio 1 because that's the entire brand.

35:25And then like E4, I guess, and T4 was like the sort of young version of Channel 4. And one of the things, the big things that happened when I started doing Breakfast, which I think people really didn't like. And I don't think I like in hindsight was the whole messaging was, oh, it's for young people now. So if you're 30, you can't listen. And it felt like if you'd been listening to Radio 1 for years and you were 30, you'd be like, fuck off, who is this guy telling me I can't listen? Do you know what I mean? So it was like a shift and it was a conscious shift. And it wasn't on a whim. I think Radio 1 were like told to do that by the BBC.