ON ADDICTION... With Mae Martin and Marian Keyes

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0:53Welcome to How to Fail, and I am so glad you're here. This week, I'm diving into the How to Fail archive to share some powerful highlights from two of my favourite past guests. These are conversations that I hope will bring you comfort, spark curiosity, or simply remind you that you're not alone. In honour of National Recovery Month, which runs throughout September, I'm revisiting excerpts from episodes with Mae Martin and Marion Keyes, two brave and brilliant people who have both experienced addiction in different forms. First up is comedian Mae Martin, who was drawn from their personal journey with addiction to create compelling stand-up and storytelling.

1:36In this clip, Mae reflects on the nature of addiction, describing it not as a single substance or behaviour, but as anything you crave and do compulsively despite the negative consequences. Then we'll hear from Marion Keyes, the much-loved author who, in her 20s, developed alcoholism and clinical depression. In this clip, she talks about how alcohol was her best friend, that her relationship with it was enmeshed with who she was as a person. But when she eventually found the strength to come out of that dependent relationship, Marion felt hopeful. She could once again see the wonder of the world and she felt free.

2:18These conversations are honest, deeply human and ultimately hopeful. Let's dive in. Given your history with substance abuse, are you medicated for ADHD or is that something that I am a bit. Yeah, I am a bit. It's been pretty life changing. Yeah. And in a way it's kind of eradicated any lingering urge to seek out a stimulant because it's really measured and yeah that that part of my brain is satisfied I guess right yeah and escape rooms I'm wary of it I know it's easy to become dependent on it and I definitely know people especially in the states who are really over medicated and yeah so I'm careful with it well I know that the definition of addiction you prefer is the Gabor Mate former guest on How to Fail.

3:13Was he? Yes. What a guy. I know. Incredible. Sonorous voice and he's a real presence isn't he? Yes. Would you mind reminding us what that definition is? Sure if I can remember it. Well he says an addiction is anything that you crave and you do compulsively despite it having negative consequences. So it's about that those negative consequences in your life um yeah and i think he and he also says that it's very often no no that's totally spot on oh is it just given everything we've been talking about he also says it's it can be a trauma response right yeah i'm sure yeah i mean yeah and and he his work has been so mind expanding for me because it was the first time that i connected other addictive behaviors in my life.

4:02And I really thought that addiction was just something that drug addicts had. And it was all to do with these very addictive substances. And you know, that once you're hooked, you're hooked. And then when I broadened the definition and thought about, you know, relationships, and so many of us have had that experience where you know someone's bad for you or that you're not happy, but you can't stop fighting for it to, you know or texting them or our phones or all these self-soothing behaviors that we all do that was really helpful for me to to see that and notice it in other areas and take a more holistic look at my life you use a lot of this hard one wisdom in feel good yeah which I loved thanks I know so many people who listen are huge fans of it as well oh great and there's one scene that always sticks in my mind and makes me laugh still thinking about it hit me where um the character has gone to an na meeting yeah decided it's not for them yeah and then goes with someone who becomes their sponsor to a coffee shop yes and it's just such a tiny thing but in the backdrop you see at the end of the scene there's like 800 coffee cups thank you for noticing that oh that's so nice oh thanks for noticing i suppose i had a question about feel good which is how much co-creating that with Joe Hampson was helpful to you in discovering yourself?

5:33So much of it. And similar to the album, maybe writing that first season, I'd never made television. I'd never acted before. And so I wrote it not worrying about any of that and not thinking, oh, I have to actually act these scenes. I just wrote it not knowing what it'd be like and then it was quite harrowing um in a really rewarding way but it was so personal um and so it yeah it was definitely therapeutic and i was sort of writing this character of myself who was really struggling with gender identity and things like that and and then the first season ended and we knew we were doing the the second season that would be the last season and we knew okay we've got to tie this up and so i guess the character should come to some conclusion about who they are and their addiction.

6:24And then that made me have to really introspect and think, okay, yeah, well, how do I feel? Yeah. I was really figuring it out in real time. And the interesting thing is, is that I know that in TV, you are constantly encouraged to have a satisfying narrative arc with a very definite end point. But of course, that is not your life. No, I wish it was to tie everything up neatly like that. Yeah. The thing that did change was the pronouns of the character between the first and the second season. Yeah. And again, literally in real time, telling the crew on set, actually, that would be nice if you guys would, like it was really happening.

7:04And I was so lucky to be making it with Charlotte Ritchie, who is a friend. And she was just so, such an amazing support emotionally in a way that she probably shouldn't have had to be, you know, just as a co-star. but we did a lot of talking and processing and it was really, really nice. I mentioned in the introduction that quote where you said you wouldn't have your 20s back for all the money in the universe. What was happening in your 20s after you were rejected from journalism college? What then happened? Oh, well, the thing about that failure was I found it very humiliating. Would it be hubris?

7:42Is that the word? I felt that I had been hubristic and thinking that I would be good enough to get into journalism college. And so I shut down everything. I shut down all ambition in myself career-wise. I became very in the day, not in a good way, short-termist about everything. I kind of gave up. Alcohol had been a great friend to me from early teens and it just became, you know a better and a better friend and I was in a job where my boss was very very kind to me like she took care of me and I was over qualified for that job and I stayed there because I felt I would never be able to quote better myself anyway so I drank I drank and I drove down cul-de-sacs and I had relationships with men who endorsed my own sense of self-loathing.

8:43I was hopeless with money but at the same time I was always holding out hope that something magical would happen. I mean an awful lot of it was hung on a man that this fabulous man would arrive and he'd make everything okay. He would polyphylla in on my lacunae, is that the word? And he'd fix up all my wonky broken bits. And I don't know that maybe I wouldn't need to work or that I could have babies and that I could be a good mother and that that could be my life. It was just like treading water or being on a treadmill going nowhere, cycling a stationary bike. That's what I was doing, except I wasn't, except because everything was getting worse.

9:26And I don't know, about a year and a half before I finally had to stop drinking, my drinking moved from a worry to it was obviously alcoholic to everyone except me. I felt very depressed and I felt very hopeless. And I was so grateful to alcohol because I thought, my God, this is helping me because I am so unhappy and how would I manage if this was taken from me and any addiction is progressive like it gets worse and I continue to normalize the abnormal I ran out of road and it was the best thing that could have happened to me but it was like a waste of eight years although no I mean it wasn't because you had to get to the end of the road I did you know like that thing about hitting rock bottom.

10:20Like I wouldn't have stopped if it hadn't been unavoidably, undeniably horrific. And it was. What was the end of the road for you? You know, those things they say, like slowly, slowly, then all at once. I woke up one Monday morning and I was due to go to work. And the depression that goes with heavy drinking is hardly a surprise, considering that alcohol is a powerful depressant. But I woke up and I thought, I cannot go on like this. And alcoholics are addicts who decide to get help. They often talk about a kind of a jumping off point where you realise you cannot carry on as you are. But the idea of living without the substance, whether it's alcohol or whatever, that it's, well, I was in this paralysed, powerless, terrified state.

11:13I was on antidepressants and I was on sleeping tablets and I took them all and I don't think I didn't want to die I wanted help like I wanted somebody to come along and sort of helicopter me out of it and that is sort of what happened I was living in London my parents were in Dublin they had some sense of how bad things were but my flatmate who was still my really good friend kept it from them as did my work colleagues but by trying to kill myself no matter how half-hearted it was it kind of forced me into a point where I could no longer pretend that I was okay and that got me into a rehab place but even when I was going in there I thought I was really depressed I had heard that it was a really tough place I said this is excellent because I thought whatever was wrong with me was kind of depression or it was that I needed to have therapy and some sort of trauma would be identified and then it could be sort of plucked out of me and then I'd be fine and then I could go back and I'd be a normal person who could manage life and I could drink normally.

12:20Jesus I was delusional but like that is part of the whole illness and I was just very lucky that like I went there and very quickly it dawned on me like the only thing that's wrong with me is that I'm an alcoholic and the only way I'll ever be okay is if I stop and it was a clear revelation but I was also I was heartbroken because this had been my best friend I don't say it so much anymore because I have a different love of my life now but it was the love of my life it was my best friend it took away my pain it took away my fear It took away my sorrow and my heartbreak, my empty life and my loneliness.

13:05The thought of being without it, like I grieved it, like the way you would grieve a lover or a person who died. It's a very powerful relationship addiction. It's incredibly enmeshed and passionate. Well, mine was. It's like having a dysfunctional relationship with an abusive person. I knew what I had to do. And very quickly, I became hopeful. Like my feelings changed really quickly. And I suppose I was lucky. I think a lot of people who don't get that kind of immediate lift might relapse. But just because I wasn't pouring this powerful chemical into me any longer, my mood changed. And I felt, you know, I could see the wonder of the world, which had seemed like it was misty and ashy and shrouded in grey for so long.

13:59And I had hope that I could have a life which was more like the lives other normal people had. I feel so lucky. I feel incredibly lucky. I feel incredibly lucky that you have the words to express what you went through with such beauty and eloquence. And I know that that will be enormously helpful for so many people listening. I hope, I hope because it's such a hopeless condition, addiction, you know, and that feeling that every door is locked, that you're trapped in this underground room. It is possible to recover. Like it is possible. And really and truly for me, it was my waking thought. It was all about how I could drink, you know, where I would get it, how I got the money for it.

14:47Like it was everything to me. I can be out now. I can go to parties. I can be at dinner with people. People can drink. I am like almost literally blind to alcohol, which the freedom I've been given, you know, when I was such a prisoner and now I really can. I don't care if I accidentally smell somebody else's wine. I feel, oh, my God, now get it away from me. It's like horrible stuff. Like all it made me feel was miserable for years and years.

15:19please do follow how to fail to get new episodes as they land on apple podcast spotify amazon music or wherever you get your podcasts please tell all your friends this is an elizabeth day and sony music entertainment original podcast thank you so much for listening

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