ON FRIENDSHIP… With Dawn French and Vogue Williams

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1:12Kids, they grow up so fast. One day they're taking their first steps and the next they don't fit into the tiny sneakers they took them in. You blink your eyes and their princess dress is two sizes too small and their dinosaur backpack isn't cool anymore. But don't cry because they're growing up. Smile, because you can profit off of it. For real, there are a bunch of parents on Depop looking for the stuff your kid just grew out of. Download Depop to start selling. Hello and welcome to this week's Throwback How to Fail, where I take a look at two past episodes on an interesting theme. This week, it's one of my personal favorites.

1:52It's friendship. You're going to hear from Vogue Williams, who recently left the jungle on I'm a Celebrity. And before she went on that show, she came on How to Fail and spoke so eloquently about how she feels really lucky to have a lot of great friends. But she doesn't always feel like she's a particularly good friend in return. Still, she is working on it and that's all we can ask. Meanwhile, Dawn French grew up as an RAF child. So her family moved around a lot, making maintaining friendships quite challenging. She talks openly about her friendship with Jennifer Saunders and how they didn't actually like each other at first.

2:31And she discusses her closest friends. First up, it's Vogue.

2:39Your final failure is friendship failures. Why did you choose this? This is because of you. So I read your book. I loved it. Friendaholic. And I think that anyone who has read it, it touches a nerve with everyone because it's like, it makes you just see so much of yourself within what you're saying about your friends. And I really, when I was reading it, I was like, God, I'm so lucky to have so many great friends, but I really feel like I'm not being a good friend to them. And because of you, I just went to a baby share in Leeds last week, which I would have said no to, but I had, so it's one of my really close friends from home and she's having a baby.

3:21She lives in Leeds and like, I've never made the effort to go and even see her in Leeds and I'm only in London. And I was like, no, I'm going to do it because after reading your book, I was like, I'm being such a bad friend. And I had such a great time and loads of my friends had come over from Dublin and it was really nice. And now I've said yes to two weddings. you've got me really busy but I think I'm sorry but also I'm so proud of you I know it's so good to be because I think that you can really take your friends for granted especially if they've been your friends for like I've got like some of my best friends are my friends since I was 12 they're probably my longest friends and then like I'm lucky with Joanne Joanne and I have been friends since since I am like 18 I think and we spend time together because we have our podcast together so we that's how we kind of see each other but even with the two of us we're kind of like right we need to start like doing fun things together can't just be about work so we were out last night and tonight we're going to Magic Mike.

4:13Fun. I know I can't wait but I think friendships do feel like a failure to me because I haven't put them first definitely in the last like six years since I've had kids I think when I had kids it was family work and then friendships like in and around it sometimes. And now I'm trying to just have better friendships and like look after the friends that I have because they're so important to me. And even like we went on holidays at Easter and we had like one group of friends the first week and another group of friends the second week. And it was really nice to just get to spend time with people like that.

4:47But it is hard to find time for friends. But it's so important because they're the ones that they'll be, you're constant in your life forever if you nurture them. And that was actually down to your book. Oh, thank you so much for saying that. And in a sense, even though I didn't have my own children, that phase of my friends having their children was really challenging for certain friendships because obviously your attention is focused in different directions and life is busy and it can be really hard to carve out a space. but I think with the friendships that I most value there's that generosity of spirit that I write about in the book where we're all our default is to think the best of each other and to acknowledge that we might not see each other as much as we'd like because there are so many competing factors in our diaries but when we do see each other there's no guilt.

5:38That's the key. Yes. Like and even with like when I saw the girls from home at the baby shower like Like there was, it was just like, you just pick it up again and you don't want to have that guilt because you do feel guilty about it. But then when I was speaking to them, I was like, oh, are you guys always hanging out and stuff? And they were like, no, we never see each other because life gets in the way and like everyone's really busy. But I think it is important. But like for me as well, it's really important to, to, to have separate friends to Speno as well. Like, of course he's friendly with all my friends as well.

6:08But like, I like having my own friendship groups where I go off and because he doesn't want to do all the things that I want to do. and vice versa.

6:24But it's even important that you had that conversation with your friends back because you were clearly feeling A, guilty, but B, like you had a fear that they were all carrying on their friendships without you in a way because you hadn't shown up. And actually to have that really honest conversation brings you closer. Yeah. So like, of course, we're not hanging out all the time. and it's just so lovely to see you. And then that kind of gives you impetus to keep going then for a few more months. Yeah. But what for you is friendship? How would you define it? What for you makes a good friendship?

6:56A lot of my friends, like, well, actually pretty much all of my friends, other than those that I would consider friends, but more acquaintances kind of thing, would feel like family to me. So they really would feel as close as that. And it's friends or people who are just there for you. like when you need them you're there for them and they have to bring like a joy into your life as well like I've had friends that that I've had to remove from my life and some people that I really like and I just thought you're just you're not bringing what I need into my life you're just kind of bringing I just if you can't trust somebody as well I think that's it's it's really strange when you think that somebody has a different agenda I'm just really I'm very considerate of who I want to spend my time with because time is short.

7:42Like you don't have that much free time, particularly when you're working and stuff like that. And I think it's important to spend it with people who just bring you happiness and add to your happiness and you add to their happiness. It has to be like a two-way thing. You can't just be expecting so much off a friend and not giving anything back, but it's something that you should want to give back without even trying. How has being famous affected your friendships? Because you are someone who is instantly recognizable visually and through your voice and also someone who thousands of people want to be friends with and potentially myself included.

8:20I'm putting myself at the top of that list, but also maybe even think they are friends with you, definitely myself included, because there's an intimacy to podcasting and to reality TV where you constantly show up as yourself. And so is that a struggle sometimes, maintaining boundaries because people want to be your friend and you're very, you have to be selective about who is actually allowed in. I think that I'm quite clever about it. And I don't think that I've had to try that hard with it. There's definitely been a couple of people that I've let in where I'm like, I shouldn't have let you in, but I don't hold bad feelings towards those people.

8:55It just isn't a friendship that I would want to continue. But there are people that I would have in my life, and you have some in your book as well, that you kind of keep a little bit at arm's length because although you like spending time in their company, they're probably not really great for you as well. Yes. But how do you do that? How do you keep them at arm's length? I kind of, they're not people, they're people that I'd see at things. Okay. So you wouldn't continue the communication via WhatsApp afterwards or? No, not too much. Maybe a tiny bit of communication, but they wouldn't be, I'd see them at events and stuff like that, but they're probably not somebody that I'm going to go, oh, let's go hang out and let's go have a coffee or let's go for dinner.

9:29And what about Spencer's attitude to friendship? Is that different from yours? He's like your husband, Justin, where he pretends he has no friends, but he has loads of friends. Spenny will tell you that I don't care about friends. I don't have any friends. And it's like, Spencer, you've so many friends. And he kind of loves new people. So he'll have a flavour. He can't help himself, but he does have like, he's very close to my brother, Alexander, who lives with us. He loves his company. He loves my cousin, Killian. So it's a real problem if Spencer and I ever break up because they're coming with me.

10:01Do you think your sister Amber is one of your best friends? Is there a difference between being someone's sibling, being related to them and being a friend? I don't really feel like that. I really feel like she's my best friend, but she's somebody who will get away with whatever she does. She'll always get away with it. Where I think is, if you have a friend who really does something that they shouldn't do, you'd probably say, listen, I'm kind of out. Whereas with a sister, they can do whatever they want. but Amber and I have been best friends since we were very small. We've always spent all our time together.

10:33We ring each other honestly about four or five times a day. We're always on to each other and she really is a very, she's my best of best friends. Spencer hates me saying that because he's like, I'm your best friend. Amber is. You mentioned earlier about some friendships that have fallen by the wayside. Have you ever had to end a friendship and have you ever actually address that conflict head on? I have had about three friendships that ended. One was a very long standing friendship and it just, you know what, how long would it be now? It's been about five years now, but it was just one of those things.

11:11I know that she's happy. I know that I'm happy, but there wasn't a huge conversation around it. It was kind of like a falling out by the end of it, but I could feel it coming for a while. and so that stopped and like you feel kind of sad because you're like God we spent so much time together but like again life just goes on there's no bad feelings I think on either part for sure now and then other friendships have ended because like there was a kind of little trust issue where I'm just like I don't know about you now and also sometimes when people surround themselves with people that aren't good people you're like oh you kind of have to question why that they are that they want to do that when you know it's not even good for them.

11:54So sometimes that happens as well. And do you tend to just then drop out of communication? No, I would let them know. You'd let them know? Yeah, excuse me, we are not friends anymore. That's so admirable. I think, well, it's happened so rarely that like, and there's always been reasons for it happening that it's kind of, you can't really do, I don't understand the ghosting thing. Like that friend in your book who ghosted you, I find that, like, I find it really strange to do something like that to somebody. I think, like, even ghosting when you're, like, I've been ghosted when I was kind of going out with somebody and I was mad about them.

12:29And then all of a sudden it was just like less and less and less. And I think it's the meanest thing to do to somebody. I just think it's like a real cowardly, although people think they're being nice by doing it that way. Whereas I just think, just tell them. So you have told someone, I'm sorry, I don't trust you anymore. So I don't feel safe in this friendship. That's actually amazing. Yeah. I mean, there were reasons behind it. Face to face. No, it was on the phone. Okay. But there are reasons behind it. Yes. Yeah. I think that's really, sorry, because you're speaking to someone who is historically so conflict avoidant that that for me is just mind blowing and really admirable.

13:06But I think that there's something really important here about clarity being the ultimate act of love and friendship. Yeah. In a way. So you're ending the friendship in the most loving way by being clear. Yeah. Yeah, and then everyone knows where they stand. And like, I always think no matter what happens, I think it's really sad to lose a friendship. But I think even with conflict, like I don't love conflict. I'd be very rational with stuff. And like, I like talking about things. I don't, I'm not, like Spencer brushes everything under the rug, like everything. We could have an argument and he's like, oh, are you still annoyed about that?

13:40Like, I'm done with that. I'm like, but we haven't spoken about it. And he's like, no, I'm finished with that now. And I'm like, no, that's not how I work. I have to sit and chat things through. And he hates doing that as well. Well, I'm relieved that I am actually, I'm weaseling my way into your friendship. You don't need to weasel, you're in. Oh my gosh, Vogue, thank you. You're in mine, genuinely. I'm so happy about this. And if we ever have conflict, which we never will. Ever. We'll go see a therapist together. We're going to see a friendship therapist, exactly. And you're going to live next door to me.

14:09And our bedrooms will look into each other's windows. I can't wait for this. Yes. And your stepfather will come and read The Hobbit in between our two bedrooms. And give aid to us as well. And make us hoover the house. I can't wait. I can't wait.

14:24And what is it about military childhoods? Because you were the daughter of someone who worked for the RAF. So was Jennifer Saunders. And Ade Edmondson, his parents were in the military as well. His dad was a teacher but worked with the army, I think, yes. Yes, and then there's Abby, who we employed at Saunders and French, which was our company. we saw a lot of people to come and be a PA for us or factotum as she called herself we chose her immediately because she was had an RAF background so you're drawn to other people I mean I didn't know that about Jennifer when I first met her but you know the more I loved her the more I realized this is part of why I loved her it's because you have this itinerant childhood because you're constantly moving you've never lived in the same house for longer than a year you've never had the same friends for longer than a year you're constantly putting on a personality fireworks display to make sure that you inveigle yourself into new friendship groups and you're not bullied or rejected so you learn a bit of sort of social manners and you learn techniques it's exhausting actually it's exhausting and my mother used to say that I was a sleepwalker and I think that was where perhaps it showed, the stress of it showed as a child.

15:40I didn't rest easy, I don't think, but it teaches you to be gregarious and to be ready for new adventures, if you like. People who have moved around a lot, people who understand the weird class system that exists inside the military. Oh, I don't know. Or there are so many things about how you live, where you live in particular kinds of houses. And you move from that house to another camp in another part of the country but to a house that looks exactly the same with the same furniture but now new people you know and you can never quite keep a dog and you can never you know it's you're moving and you're abroad and then your dad's away from you for two years and you know it's all very weird and so it's a relief when you meet other people who've had the same experience because you don't have to explain it what do you think French and Saunders and your your long long collaboration both personal and professional with Jennifer, who I know you call Fatty Saunders.

16:38What do you think it's taught you about friendship? Oh, goodness, so much. Well, you know, first of all, as you said, we did not really like each other on first sight. We're very different. We still are very different. I believe we're from different classes, if that still is even a conversation. I know it's more of a mushy scenario these days. When I talk to my kids about class, they don't know what I'm talking about. They literally don't understand what I mean. But I think it's still very, it's implied now rather than spoken about openly. But the fact that we constantly vote old Deutonians into office, which suggests that there's some dysfunction.

17:16It's more insidious, really, actually, isn't it? Yeah, so when I met Jennifer, I mean, you know, I regarded her as out of my league entirely for lots of reasons. She was seemingly confident, seemingly. She was very beautiful. she was an officer's daughter now when you are in the military these ranks mean everything the officers live at the other end of the camp they have detached houses they have houses with bathrooms with sinks in you know there are huge things that make you very different from them and so I'm part of the oik end of the camp and really I didn't mix with the officer's kids And suddenly she was an officer's kid.

17:57So I was thinking, you're not the type I mix with. She's a slightly plummy voice. But I was so wrong. You know, this is why you should never judge the book. Never do that. And I have a prejudice against posh people. I realise I've always had it. And I still think I have it a little bit. A posh person has to kind of earn my respect before I can freely give it in a way I would to somebody else, which is mad, really. And I should have learned these lessons by now. But as soon as we were friends and we shared a flat together, then I thought, oh, that's ludicrous. But she did different things to me.

18:35She was invited to things called drinks parties. She would get invitations, proper embossed invitations. and they'd be on the mantelpiece and they'd say, you know, Jennifer is invited by Fifi, you know, somebody double-barreled, two drinks in Chelsea between six and eight on Wednesday. And I thought, what is that? Who is Fiddley, Biddley, Biddley? Who is she? Why only drinks? Well, you're not going to have your tea. You're not going to have anything to eat. Why are you going for drinks? What drink? What's standing about and drinking? This is not something I'd ever heard of. and I went to a couple of these things with her and they were pretty horrendous but these were young people mimicking their parents behavior of having their friends around for drinks you know this was not something I'd ever heard of so she showed me all kinds of things like that and I know that I was just I was very uh chippy and I think I was a bit blood I also my dad had just died and I was dripping with grief and trying to cover that up so I think I was not quite entirely authentic really but she understood that with time so yeah we were very very different and and it was only when we kind of fell in love with each other when we lived together that all of those prejudices melted away.

20:00I love that language falling in platonic love it's so important. absolutely I don't want to gloss over the fact that your father died by suicide and we'll come back to that I'm so sorry you went through that at that age thank you a lot of what you say about Jennifer I can apply to my own best friend we didn't like each other I didn't really like her at first sight thought she seemed really confident I was like she's not going to be the likes of me and I think it's the most sustaining most consistent love of my life and I think the thing that Emma has taught me is that there's great safety in our attachment so we can have periods where we've had like one rupture that was then repaired and made us closer yes okay have you experienced that with jennifer yes but you've got to remember jennifer is my very very very close friend but i also have a bestie okay that's aside from jennifer and in fact i have other friends as well so i have a little group a little caucus of really beloved valuable female friends and probably in that I'd put a gay friend too, a gay man who is sort of honorary woman in that gang of people that, as you say, I feel entirely safe with, who know me inside out and who support me inside out and for whom I would support them in exactly the same way.

21:15But Jennifer is right up there. And yes, I think I've never had a rupture, your word, with Jennifer. I have with my bestie, which we similarly recovered from and learnt from. And it was incredibly painful because you can't believe that you would have such a tearing with somebody you love so much. But of course, that's when it's going to hurt because you love them so much. But Jennifer and I have a different kind of system. And I think it's because we work together as well as play together, which is that we take a sort of constant temperature of each other. so we never have got to a difficult row we've never had a row we might have had a bit of sulking and even that I can hardly remember any of that we seem to have a kind of innate compromise kind of gauge and I think this comes from working together so because we're writing together we understand what the other person is contributing and who came up with the idea and who's writing it down and who's had the most to do with it.

22:24But we will get to a moment when I can think of one sketch we did particularly, where I had quite strong feelings about the way it should go. And she had strong feelings the other way. And it was as if I, you know, I took the temperature at that moment thought, actually, she wrote this, it was her idea. This is the time to surrender, you know, given this is her baby, I need to follow here. And she does the same for me. And I don't even know how we navigate it but we do and that is a testament to strong empowering female understanding friendships yes I also love something you've said in the past about how you might have felt jealous about the ab fab success that Jennifer had so but because you loved her so much the pride overwhelmed the jealousy you could feel both things and actually the positive I've never heard someone put that into words before and it's so true well you have a cocktail of emotions that's what you have and I'm imagining it's very akin to what being a sister is like I don't have a sister I've got a sister-in-law who I love very much but I don't have a sister and I'm imagining this must be what sisters have to navigate all the time you know who's the favorite who's the most successful who's managed this who's does the other one feel failed because this one has succeeded I imagine it's a bit like that, like a sisterhood.

23:45And so, yeah, again, what I'm all for is owning the rather ugly little moments of jealousy or failure or anything you're feeling that's a bit difficult and explain it to the other person because we're all human. And if that other person has it explained to them, they can help you through it. It's so much easier. So much easier. And then you add the Vicar of Dibley anyway. So who's laughing now? please do follow how to fail to get new episodes as they land on apple podcast spotify amazon music or wherever you get your podcasts please tell all your friends this is an elizabeth day and sony music entertainment original podcast thank you so much for listening