ON PANIC ATTACKS… With Jamie Laing and Fearne Cotton

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2:30Panic attacks are far more common than many of us realise. The NHS estimates that around one in 10 people will experience a panic attack at some point in their lives and NHS England reports that women are more likely to be affected. And yet despite how widespread they are, panic attacks remain something we rarely talk about openly. Many people carry a quiet sense of shame or misplaced embarrassment as though it's a secret they need to hide. But I believe it's vital we normalise an experience so many of us share because talking about it is often the first step towards understanding, accepting and working through it.

3:11That's why I'm so grateful to my friends Jamie Leng and Fern Cotton for joining How to Fail and for speaking so honestly about their own experiences. Jamie reflects on the early days of Made in Chelsea when he experienced panic attacks for a full year. Fern shares how she still experiences panic attacks today, the stigma that can surround them, and the way she now manages and copes. I hope this conversation feels reassuring, validating, and that it helps to normalise a topic that has remained unnecessarily taboo for far too long. First up, here's Jamie.

3:52Yeah, because I think I saw in an interview that given that when you started doing Made in Chelsea, you had panic attacks for a year. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it wasn't so much that. What it was, was I did have panic attacks. I basically, I started doing this TV show, Made in Chelsea. And it was started at the very beginning where I was at Leeds University. And I also was one of these guys who didn't really know what I wanted to do in life. My stepfather said to me, Jamie has so much energy, if you harness it, he can do great things. But I was never really knew my place. And I find that's the problem with the education system that if you aren't good at history or geography or maths and those things you kind of are seen as a failure and I was very good at sports and all those kind of things but I wasn't very academic because I wasn't interested in it so I was always seen as this kind of failure guy so then I went and joined uh went to Leeds University and I was offered this tv show I remember I went on holiday with one of my best friend's mums a girl called Sophie Tanner Lang who actually is head of Endermol Shine and I was on holiday with her and I and she said Jamie what are you going to do with your life?

4:50And I said, I was about 20 years old at the time. And I said, I'm going to be a TV presenter. And she said, you're not. And I said, why? And she said, well, you're too posh. You can't be a TV presenter. There's no way that's going to happen. And I went, okay, well, I've been offered a TV show with my friends about being posh. And she said, don't do it. It'll be the worst I do in the entire world. Reality TV is this, it's that, it's this, it's that. And I said, well, I'm going to go and do it then because you told me I'm not going to go and do it. And I went onto this TV show and started Made in Chelsea and all those kind of things and it was great fun however what happens with doing a tv show i suppose is that you're suddenly hit with some sort of fame whatever however minuscule have a z list people want to call it it's just you know you get some sort of profile you also are 20 years old and you are going partying and all these different things and with that combined and that pressure not really knowing yourself and not really knowing what you want to do and always being seen as a failure i had this anxiety built up in my body.

5:45And after filming for the first six months, I suddenly started having these panic attacks. And the problem with the panic attacks was I'm such an open person and so kind of outgoing and all these kind of things. And suddenly from going from this incredibly outgoing, open person, I then felt that I was trapped in my own body and I didn't want to leave the house and I didn't want to see people and had social anxiety because I thought I would have a panic attack whenever I went and saw someone. So it was a really horrible moment and it lasted for about a year but I just didn't tell anyone because if I told anyone it became a reality and so it was really quite horrible but you learn so much from those kind of things.

6:21I've got so many questions that spiral outwards from that. Sorry by the way I talk so much. It's amazing you're the ideal guest. If I keep talking I apologise. Because so many people come onto this podcast and say that they felt they failed at their 20s and I think that's because as you rightly identify, you're trying to find your way in a world that is confusing because you've left full-time education and you're still working out your own identity. But to play out your 20s on screen must have just been a whole heap of anxiety. It's a weird one. And, you know, people talk about how reality shows and, you know, people are talking about these suicides and things like that are going on reality TV.

7:01And in fact, suicide is the biggest killer for males under 45 and that's happening in all industries. It doesn't matter if you're a baker, a butcher, a reality star, it's happening all over the place. It's just because you have some sort of profile that it's sort of shown across. But it's weird because your 20s, I think, is about finding your identity and finding out who you are, as you said. And for me, I had no clue who I was, really. I thought I did. I thought I knew everything about me, but I knew nothing. You also then are playing a part on a television show and I was being myself, but then you have the ups and the downs and these kind of things.

7:33And also there's no stability in it as well. You know, you could suddenly, the show could stop. They could do all these things. And then what do you do with your life? And so with all those pressures added up, it was really quite, I sound like I'm working down a mind. I mean, I got to hang out with my mates and got paid to do it. It was pretty sweet. But at the same time, it was just a combination of things. But all of my anxieties and hepto things happened from when I was a kid. And so I had to understand myself. And I was trying to blame it on going out too much or doing this or doing that, all those things.

8:04But in fact, I had to really discover actually who I was. And I think the thing is, you know, Socrates said, right, there are two levels of happiness, lower level and higher level. The lower level is wealth, fame, power, those kind of things. And that's what I thought I wanted. I thought I wanted to be rich. When I was a kid, I was like, oh, no, I'm going to go and be driving a Ferrari when I'm 25 and this kind of thing. And I thought that's what success was. But in fact, the higher level of happiness is what Socrates says is the one you want to go for, which is empathy, friendship, love, kindness, all those kind of things, doing good.

8:37And I had to learn throughout my twenties, then the fact, the thing that's going to make me happy, isn't being wealthy and being famous and all those kinds of things. And all those things that you think are going to make you happy. And you climb to the top of the mountain, you get there and you realize they're actually not making you happy. What actually makes you happy is having strong relationships with your friends, being empathetic and having self-awareness and doing good and having a purpose. And the most important thing I had to learn was I had to find my purpose. And I couldn't find it throughout my life.

9:05I didn't know what I wanted to do. And that's why I started to have anxiety and things like that. Do you think you found your purpose now? I think I have. Yeah, I think so. But I've been really quite lucky because I was able to discover discover what I wanted to do because I came from a family who gave me an allowance and I went to a boarding school that taught you to stand up in front of a crowd and be able to give us, you know, talk. I didn't have to go and work in the local Asda to pay my rent or look after my family or do those kinds of things. I could sit on my butt and kind of go, okay, I'm 21.

9:39What do I really want to do? I'll do this reality show. I'll do this. I'll do that and figure out what I wanted to do. And I figured now that my purpose in life is to, I just love entertaining. And whatever form that is, I don't mind. But as long as I can continue to do that, I will be immensely happy. And, you know, the key is, you know, when we were younger, we were asked these things, if you had one wish, what would your wish be? And people go, oh, I want to, you know, be the richest person in the world, or this, or those kind of things. Oh, I want to have 40 girlfriends, or whatever it is.

10:09But now actually everyone's wish what you find out is just to be happy. And that's what I had to figure out.

10:19And how did that manifest itself? In a lot of ways, but the main one, having a disordered relationship with my body and food for 10 years. And it's so strange because I even feel, you know, nervous talking about it because I haven't. And I think I've got to the point, which is why I wanted to talk today, that I talk the talk and I love being honest, but I don't 100 % walk the walk because I haven't gone there. You know, I've definitely talked about a big period of depression that I've had, and I've talked about that prolifically and panic attacks, which was really scary to talk about because I still get them.

10:57So there's all sorts of weirdness going on with that when you're still experiencing them. But this one is a strange one because it's been like this sort of weird secret that I felt a little bit embarrassed about, a little bit ashamed of, a little bit worried. Like, I'm still worried now. Like, what are people going to think when I tell this story and share this side of myself? I have a weird worry, like I did with talking about the depression, that people won't hire me to work. Like, silly stigma that I still attach to all of these situations that I know loads of people are going through. But the main problem I had and this sort of weird new release that I invented for myself was to have bulimia.

11:41I had that for on off a good decade of my life. So the beginning of my 20s, it was quite intense and sort of ruled everything. and then in my later 20s it was more like a bad habit I would kick into if something emotional was happening or if I felt out of control it would be my go-to thing but it wasn't as regular and another reason why I've been nervous to talk about it is you know I've experienced so many times how the press will jump on things I say and then take them out of context and use wild headlines. And the one kind of thing I have to talk about is the reaction that I've had to that period of my life has been my 30s, which have been all about health and looking after myself and eating extremely well and healing and recovering and being really on it with my health because I denied myself the pleasure of cooking and food for so long that it's now become my everything.

12:46So it's really important that that side of my story is also really communicated because it's something I'm so passionate about. And I know because I read a lot of articles about it, there are so many people out there, men and women, going through this situation with disordered eating, bulimia, and feeling like they'll never, ever get out of it. And I don't define myself by being a bulimic. I'm not. I, for the last eight years, have been very studious with food and very careful about how I eat and how I cook and how I talk about food. And I feel really good and recovered. I hope I'm not being naive by saying it, but I do feel like that.

13:28It was a period of my life, but I'm not in it anymore. It is the past, but it does signify a big chunk of my life where I failed at being me because I'm just me these days. So whatever anybody thinks or says, that's their issue. Back then, I felt I couldn't be me. It had to be something wildly different. And that became my little secret to contain it, I guess. That's such a beautiful way of putting something so difficult. And thank you so much for that. Because I know how much it will speak to so many people, myself included. I know people very close to me who have lived with that condition. And I think the reason it's so hard to talk about and the reason that there's still unfair stigma attached to it is because we're expected to be perfect and you're expected, particularly in the job that you had, to kind of have it all and to have it all without seeming to put effort into it.

14:32And so it feeds into this narrative that you have to be in control. And I think that one of the misunderstandings about disordered eating, bulimia, anorexia is that it's about your physical presentation of the outside world. And actually, my understanding is it's a lot about control when you feel out of control. Yeah, that's exactly what it was. I didn't recognize that until a lot later down the line. But for me, partly, it was something that no one knew about me, because I felt at times very overexposed. Partly, that was, I take responsibility for that but it was still the case and also about control because I had this first chunk of my life which was very normal and I was doing normal family things and then the next chunk of it overnight switched up and was just bonkers at times so it was a way of feeling like I was calling the shots and I was in control and it's sad to look back and see that it was obviously the absolute opposite of that.

15:31I felt so out of control that it came to abusing my own body. And it took quite a while physically to kind of move on from that. But mentally, a very long time, I will still have unkind thoughts about myself on a physical level, because there was an element of that in there as well. And that's something that I remedy by doing the opposite, eating a really lovely meal or doing some very gentle yoga you know I used to I was never the sort of person that binged and then puked up after I would eat relatively regular meals but then still go and get rid of it all and have it felt like a release like every worry every problem thought was just like gone it was like a little bit of euphoria afterwards of course it wasn't I want to be very clear about that but at the time the mental state I was in it did feel like that I was exercising you know like going running to the gym and like pounding my body and now it's all about being gentle and being kind to myself and exercising when I feel like I want to and doing it so I'm energized rather than exhausted and eating so that I'm vibrant and energized to have energy for my family and I also have shame attached to the fact that I purposefully hurt my own body when I'm so grateful for my health today I can't tell you like absolutely the main thing I'm grateful for every day is I wake up and I'm here I have a healthy body like thank god and to think that I damaged it on purpose you know I do have some shame attached to that and I guess that's why I've also found it very difficult to even admit like sometimes I feel like did I make it all up like did it really happen because I've never talked about it you know even to my close friends I haven't really felt like that was a place I wanted to go to and I'll go there you know I like being honest I like putting it out on the table but this one has felt I don't even know why just too spiky to deal with

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