ON SELF ACCEPTANCE... With Pamela Anderson and Rylan Clark

0:00Elizabeth Day:Hello, this is Elizabeth Day from the How to Fail podcast. I wanted to share something I'm genuinely excited about. One of my favourite UK wellness brands, Ancient and Brave, has just launched in the US. I've used two of their products in my daily routine and they've made a tangible difference. The first is True Creatine Plus. With added taurine, vitamin D and magnesium, it supports physical performance, energy and cognitive function. It's easy to take at home or on the go, whether I'm working out or not. I also use their clinically studied True Collagen, a pure, potent and powerful staple that supports skin elasticity and hydration, as well as whole body health.

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2:56Elizabeth Day:This episode brings that truth to life through two cultural powerhouses. First, Pamela Anderson, Global Icon and Golden Globe nominee. She reflects on fame, body image, early trauma and the long road to self-discovery. She also uncovers that the harshest critic is often yourself. But the only approval that matters is your own. Then, Rylan Clark. Since rising to fame on The X Factor, he's become one of Britain's most loved broadcasters. Rylan opens up about growing up feeling different, navigating his sexuality, surviving bullying and the women who shaped him, experiences that made him exactly who he is today.

3:39Elizabeth Day:and we wouldn't have him any other way. We begin with Pamela's story. Let's dive straight in. You spent years dressing for others and you say it was fun at the time, but you're glad it's in the past. So when did dressing for others start for you? Was it when you were in the public eye? Well, I think you start believing what other people see in you and what other people expect

4:01Pamela Anderson:of you. And so, I mean, again, I didn't have a stylist back then. A stylist wouldn't have let me walk out the door, you know, if I was wearing some of those costumes, it was just me digging through doors and putting things together and, you know, corsets and hats. And even when I first started doing interviews, when I was on TV, I would go to the Playboy studio and pick out pieces of clothing, you know, half pieces of clothing and have to put them together somehow. And they had a great, just wild closet to pull from, which is, you know, every color shoe, every color corset, you know. So I just started putting things together myself.

4:35Pamela Anderson:I remember I did a campaign for shock moose and i remember simon asking me who styled you back then it was so genius i was like i guess i'm the genius because i put those together and he had tears in his eyes he was like no don't tell me that that was incredible but it was authentic it was fun i thought it was i remember going to the dome back then and i found like polka dot stockings with like the seam up the back and a plastic dress and a and you know wearing my hair in a chignon and putting eyelashes on and it wasn't thought out it was just kind of what I threw together but then in my first marriage you know rock star marriage I thought what does the rock star wife look like and then I just started playing that character even though it's been fun to see Beyonce dress up as me and barbed wire and and again those red carpet looks but I created those characters which I think is a compliment because I think you can't create it you are not just a costume, you're the person in the costume.

5:35Pamela Anderson:And I think what people responded to weren't just the bedazzled pants, but the actual young girl having fun.

5:44Elizabeth Day:Yes. The character you created in that outfit. And you mentioned there that you were creating a character dress-wise within your first marriage, but were there other things that you were dressing for other occasions? So when you went to promote a film for instance in that era were you under pressure to wear certain things

6:04Pamela Anderson:well barbed wire when I went to Cannes we hadn't even shot a frame of film yet but I had my workout leggings in my in my bag and a little black corset and gloves and boots from a photo shoot I had just done and so I put that together it wasn't planned I just came out on the pier and it was funny boats were running into each other and people were falling off of boats and I kept going who are are they looking at like what's going on and I realized it was had no idea so they just I just

6:31Elizabeth Day:did that I remember that that's so iconic and it was your workout leggings yeah it wasn't that exciting so exciting you are you're a creative genius oh yeah well but all these happy kind of

6:45Pamela Anderson:accidents and in the time at the moment it was getting a lot of attention but it wasn't like it was the cover of Vogue. It wasn't fashion, you know, it was me playing. And so I don't know if that was a failure, but in the moment it felt disrespected or didn't feel appreciated. It didn't feel appreciated. But now that this 90s has made this comeback and people are really kind of looking at that time, you know, I guess I was a little bit of a pioneer. I'll just say that. I'll look at it as a positive. But in the moment, it was courageous because it was just fun and it was playful, but it wasn't fashion.

7:25Pamela Anderson:It wasn't cool.

7:27Elizabeth Day:Yes. And do you feel that people didn't take you seriously as a result?

7:32Pamela Anderson:Oh, no, people weren't taking me seriously. And I think people forget too that I was an actress. I wasn't just a celebrity because of my personal life or my marriage. I was on Baywatch for many years and I was on VIP for many years. I did a movie, Barbed Wire. It may not be the box office hit, but it's a cult hit. And I was married. It was a high profile marriage and then people became celebrities for just being celebrities. And I kind of got lumped into that category, but I really wanted to be an actress and I'm so glad I get to do that now. I am too.

8:06Elizabeth Day:You mentioned the nineties there, and we're also living through this era of Y2K resurgence. And there is also this sense that there's a toxicity to it as well in terms of body image. And I wonder what you think about that, because you touched on social media and the impact that that is having. What are your thoughts on it?

8:26Pamela Anderson:Well, I think people have to realize too that all these images are retouched or have filters on them and people can make themselves look any way they want, their bodies and everything. So it's not a good resource for body image, you know, social media. And also every generation has its challenges with body image and with beauty and with what we think is trendy or looks good, or we try and keep up with the Joneses, or we do what everybody else is doing. And there's just always a trade-off. You have to support people no matter where they are in their beauty journey. There's no judgment of what people do.

9:08Pamela Anderson:It's never too late to look in the mirror and to accept where you are in that moment and to start there, start fresh, start over. It's never too late.

9:18Elizabeth Day:I totally agree with you. And I really appreciate this idea that the Dove Self-Esteem Project has of bodily autonomy and body realism rather than this constant pressure to feel overwhelmingly positive all the time about who we are and how we present ourselves because that's not realistic right yeah but I think the most powerful thing for me is as you're doing stripping back the layers understanding who I am underneath it all and not trying to chase trends that change all of the time

9:48Pamela Anderson:because that's the nature of a trend we're not trying to chase youth yes and that's just been you know fed to us is that's to look as young as we possibly can as long as we can and I don't know I think it gets more interesting you know it does I mean I have my own insecurities and things that I I catch myself but I think that's the challenge is to embrace those parts of yourself even the ones you don't necessarily like a lot it's a journey it's a challenge it's practice and it's ups and downs. It's two steps forward, one step back. That's just how it is.

10:27Elizabeth Day:So knowing that this episode is going out and it's going to reach the ears of women, people of all genders, but young women in particular, what would your message or piece of advice be to them if they are going through a struggle with their own body image, with their own acceptance of where they're at on their beauty journey?

10:48Pamela Anderson:I think that we're our own worst critic and nobody else is judging you. I feel like that was my aha moment was when I realized nobody else is, they're more worried about the way they look and that I can go to the beach in a bathing suit. I can look at myself in a less critical way. And I know it's a practice. Body image should be based on how do you feel healthiest. And I think that's the most beautiful.

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13:47Elizabeth Day:That's 15 % off when you buy two pairs of glasses at Warby, that's W-A-R-B-Y, parker.com slash fail. After you purchase, they'll ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them that we sent you. Let's get on to your second failure, which is your failure to fit in at school. And I imagine that there's a lot that ties into

14:10Rylan Clark:how we started this conversation yeah I mean I weirdly enough I mean that's quite a vague statement because in primary school don't get me wrong I had a lovely time I had a really really great time at primary school but I had these times where I didn't feel like I fit in and that was because I think I was trying to work out who I was and what these thoughts that maybe I was having meant because you know when you're nine ten years old back then I don't know about nine ten years now but back then I didn't know what the word gay meant I didn't know what that meant but what I would be doing I was quite stereotypical so in the playground the boys would be playing football and I'd be with the girls doing bewitched routines and S Club 7 by the church and performing for the dinner ladies like all of these things and as much as I wasn't made to feel like I didn't fit in I think that was a pressure I was putting on myself like why am I here why am I here and not on that side of the fence with the boys playing football and that sort of progressed I remember there was this one time it was this boy from school's birthday and sort of that that thing you invited the whole class and we all went but he had friends from not our school and me and the girls are sort of outside doing this routine and whatever while these and I remember his friends that didn't go out of school were like taking the piss out of me which I can understand but I'd been in this sort of bubble of like well they all know what I'm like and then all of a sudden you're out in the what you feel is the big bad world with people from another school they're like eight do you know what I mean but it's just I remember that it's something that I banked and I thought maybe I shouldn't be doing this maybe I should be with the boys so it's sort of not a case of not fitting in and being ostracised and at the edge of the class more that internal feeling of why am I doing this what does this mean and you know you'd have the odd person say something to you and you think what does that mean what does gaming what does this mean and then when I moved to secondary school again I was very lucky to go to a really good secondary school and I was a little bit targeted in the early years by some of the older boys and then it got to sort of the age of 14, 15 and I was quite happy with who I was and knew who I was and was like fuck you and that's when I'll never forget someone come up to me and tried to take the piss out of me he was two years older we had all these mates with him taking the mick and I just went do you want a fucking blowjob or something because you're obsessed and his face just dropped and his mate sort of took the piss out of him and then I was like okay and then he never said anything to me since and it was sort of just like owning who I was I wasn't ashamed of who I was but yeah I think taking that own

16:51Elizabeth Day:ownership meant a lot to me there's a lot that I want to come back to on that but I wonder what your thoughts are on the language around quote-unquote coming out because I feel that that often implies there's something that you're coming out from that there's been this sort of darkness that you need to emerge from and it can be it can imply something really negative but it sounds from what you're saying you always knew yourself you just didn't have the language

17:20Rylan Clark:to express it i totally understand what you're saying and i'm really grateful for you saying that because i mean coming out as the term don't offend me in the slightest like and i get why it's called coming out because it's like i'm telling the world who i am i'm hoping in 10 15 years time no one uses the words coming out because whether you're gay straight bi want to have sex with vegetable good luck to you like it shouldn't be an issue the weird thing is i always say this like when anyone comes out in the media that maybe has been working in the media for some time and has never spoke about their sexuality or whatever and then all of a sudden decides to for their own reasons great well done and they get a lot of praise and people are like yay I remember having this conversation with a couple of other people in the industry that are also gay and it was sort of like a passing jokey comment but it was like oh we didn't get this fanfare like because we've always just been who we are I've never publicly come out I've just been on TV I married a man but I've never said guys the same I've got to tell you all yes on x-factor something got to tell you I'm gay like I've never done the coming out video I've just been myself and people I've presumed or I've said something somewhere and you know that's that so for me I sit there and go if someone wants to tell the world their gender sexual preference were great I'm here to support everyone if someone doesn't and they want to keep it hidden again it's great it's your personal life I don't care who you're sleeping with whatever but for me I came out to my mum but everyone else just knew did your mum know when you well that mean it's quite a funny story because I've got my friend's mum to tell her because I bottled it and I heard her on in the background on the phone going no Linda no and I run away because I thought my mum's gonna disown me and what my friend's mum actually said look he's got something to tell you and she went oh don't tell me he's got a girl pregnant so I mean I mean I don't know if she knew but I mean she wasn't deaf and blind but for some reason

19:32Elizabeth Day:she thought I might have got a girl pregnant but yeah I love your mum she's great on she's a up she was a single mother you have an older brother who you mentioned yeah driver he's a he's

19:45Rylan Clark:quite a bit older yeah he's 14 years older than me so he was like a dad figure okay did you ever feel

19:50Elizabeth Day:the lack of a dad and do you think that's part of your need for validation do you know what no

19:56Rylan Clark:genuinely hand on heart didn't the only times i ever felt odd about it was if when i was younger you'd have a supply teacher that don't know the kids obviously let's say you did something wrong or you did something good or they were asking you to stand up in class and say something and if they just said a passing woman like what do your mum and dad do I was like well I haven't got dads they're the only times where I'd be like oh it's weird but no like now a lot of the public know who my mum is if they've seen her or listened to her on my radio show she's definitely strong enough to be a mum and a dad and my nan lived with us as well because my mum wasn't well a lot of the time so I sort of had two mums and then my brother is a father figure so where my brother was so much more older than me he was the one that would sort of buy me my first computer or things like that things you just don't forget as a kid so I never felt the lack of a father figure because I almost had three parents I mean it's better than none isn't it yes age yeah so yeah so there wasn't that need to prove yourself to show yourself to your dad absolutely no okay no i've ticked that cod psychology box yeah like i really wish i mean look i'm sure if you pick through my brain and certain traits or this and you cross-reference it with people that didn't grow up with a man in the house and all of the i'm sure we can sit there and find something that's like maybe that is because of a lack of a dad like I've always sat there and thought nature and nurture when it comes down to my sexuality and you know growing up in a household with two females did that make me gay I don't know like but I always do think that and but I genuinely think I could have grown up in a household with the craze and still like Willie so yeah you know like I genuinely believe that people are who they are I feel like nurture definitely plays its part in people's character her and their characteristics and how they behave but I do genuinely feel that people were meant to be who they are I don't know that might just be like a lovey-dovey thing to say no I totally agree

22:04Elizabeth Day:with you and that idea of nurture being integral that mindset that you mentioned earlier of that idea that if you wanted something you'd had to put in the hours and you could achieve it okay that's pure nurture and that's clearly something that you inherited from your mum your gran your

22:18Rylan Clark:older brother absolutely you you want something you go and work for it and you go and get it and even now i'm in a very luxury grateful position where i could be places and they'll go you ain't got to pay for this or you can have this don't get me wrong sometimes you sit there thanks that's lovely really appreciate it but i'll never forget after x factor it's about six months after and i all i wanted to do to me always wanted to lose a ton suitcase don't know why it's their stereotype oh you've made it and i remember going to the shop with my return manager and walking in there and going i want to buy that and i'm like yep no worries we'll take you upstairs to the louis vuitton apartment and i'm like oh my god this is amazing and literally they were like we've spoke to our press team they're happy to give this year and i just broke down and was like no i want to pay for it i want to pay for it let me buy this for myself like that sounds so ridiculous because if they want to send me one now i'll take it but you made the point now yeah yeah but literally like for my own validation yes that's when i knew i had done well yes to be able to have the money to buy that like and that's when i was up right when i did and i did and to this day like i rinse it like it's fraying because i use it that much but every time i pick up that suitcase even all these years on i've been lucky enough to earn some money build my own house I've got a car built my mum a house but every time I pick that suitcase

23:46Elizabeth Day:up I'm like you don't know why symbolic yeah that time of not fitting in at school you've been I think very generous to the people who as you say kind of teased you because actually it was

23:57Rylan Clark:very serious bullying at one point at one point it was yeah at one point it was quite bad you fractured your skull yeah so that was the late primary school that was and it wasn't actually kids at school there was this place near our school where everyone went it was like an adventure playground thing not like a playground like a normal one it was like a purpose built like rope swings and you'd have staff there like it was one of those sort of children's places and yeah just one day this group of kids I was just on the swing just grabbed me threw me down on the floor and kicked me in the head and it fractured my skull and the next thing I know I'm in an ambulance and I remember going past my house, seeing my house through the window and was like, what?

24:41Rylan Clark:It's weird because I was young and I don't really remember that much, but I remember those snippets and I remember being in the ambulance and seeing my house and being like, that's my house. And then I lay down and I'm like, and then I'm crying because I'm scared. I'm like, what's going on? Like my parents, like all of this, like what's going on? And yeah, yeah, it fractured my skull. And yeah, it just turned out these kids had seen me playing with the girls and didn't like it. And that was it. I didn't even know them. But they were just other kids that went there. So, yeah, so that was sort of the final straw for my mum, actually.

25:15Rylan Clark:That's when she went, we're leaving. We're moving. Don't want to be here no more. And that's when we moved out. We were the last sort of ones of our family to move out to Essex. We all come from East London. And, yeah, that was the final straw for my mum. She just went, no, we're going.