Pat Cummins - 'My mother’s death taught me cricket isn’t as important as family'

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0:36Welcome to How To Fail, the podcast that flips the traditional interview format on its head and asks about failures rather than successes. You can join me for more How To Fail in our subscriber series, Failing With Friends. Every week, I get some extra time with my guests to answer your failures and questions. This week, you'll hear more from Pat Cummins. This is the direction I didn't expect it to go in, but I'm here for it. And we'd love to hear from you. Just follow the link in the podcast notes.

1:10Pat Cummins is the captain of the Australian men's national cricket team and widely regarded as one of the all-time greatest fast bowlers. He grew up in Mount Riverview, west of Sydney, with two brothers and two sisters, playing cricket in his backyard, and he made his test debut at the age of 18. To say he is popular is to underplay the reality. Cummins is beloved in his native Australia and an object of obsession for cricketing fans across the world, who admire not only his sporting skill, but his social conscience and his leadership. Australian men's cricket captains have historically had a reputation for unreconstructed bloquishness, but Cummins, who is a father of one and who has helped set up a foundation to reduce cricket's carbon footprint, breaks the mould.

2:04It has made him the target of criticism, but also of adulation. and throughout it all, his sporting prowess remains beyond dispute. 2024 has already been a year of unprecedented success. Cummins led Australia to victory in the World Test Championship and in the World Cup, retaining the Ashes. Our greatest glory is not in never failing, he has said, but in rising every time we fall. Pat Cummins, welcome to How to Fail. thanks so much for having me um i don't know really where to go from that i think that's it's all downhill from here so i might just leave did i get it right did i get the facts right i think most of them the quote my quote at the end i'd i've never heard that oh really so i'll take it that's so funny i was like that is so lyrical yeah i was gonna say it sounds really nice but i don't think that's me okay maybe it's nelson mandela and it's been wrongly attributed to you.

3:03Well, I'd claim it. It's online, it says it's you. I'll take it. I have spoken to many people over the last few weeks who are never impressed by any guest I have on How to Fail, who have become giddy when I have dropped your name. What is that like for you? Because you strike me as really quite a humble, rooted person. But to have this sort of adulation, what does that feel like uh I mean it's it's not every day um I feel like most of my life's quite normal but no it's still a little bit strange you know at times because I just feel like I'm quite normal um my job's going and bowling a cricket ball with a group of my really close mates that I've known for years and years so yeah sometimes I do forget that there's lots of other people that you know follow cricket and sport and the players really closely like I did when I was a child but honestly I don't really think about that side of it too much.

4:07Talk to me about failure within cricket how do you define failure within that sporting context? If you win 60 % of the time you're one of the all-time great cricket teams so even if you're going really well you're probably going to lose 40 % of your games so you've kind of become desensitized a little bit to failing. We always try to look at some other kind of metrics and ways we're going and we try and define how we want to play, how I want to play personally, and I kind of judge myself against that so try and take the win and loss out of it. So if I go out and I try really hard, I've prepared well and it doesn't come off, for me that's not really failure.

4:50It's if I haven't given myself the best chance to go out and win. That is so on brand for everything that I believe and the reason behind this podcast, that as long as you try your hardest and you prepare your best, if you fail, it does not make you a failure. It's actually the true test as in how you respond to it. Absolutely. And, you know, I always think you've got some level of agency on how you want to kind of live and how you want to say in cricket, how you want to play. So as long as you're kind of staying true to that, giving yourself the best chance, fronting up every day, you know, the small little failures in between don't really kind of matter in the big picture as long as you keep rocking up, keep trying to get better.

5:34No one's perfect. You're not going to win everything. It's reality that it's going to happen. It's just how you deal with it. You are someone who had to take quite a substantial period of time out because you were played with injuries. Does that feel like a failure when you're going through it? In some regards, yes. It's funny. I debuted for Australia when I was 18. So, you know, my life up until that had been basically playing cricket for the love of it. But all summers were spent playing cricket. And then I became a professional cricketer. And then for the next five or six years, I was basically injured.

6:06And it was kind of this weird stage where I was now a professional full-time cricketer, but I'd actually played, I was playing less cricket than I ever had in my life. And it felt like my body was failing me and there wasn't really much I could do about it. Even my particular injuries were bone stress related injuries, which you're basically just looking at a clock, you're out for 12 or 16 weeks. It's not like you can go to the gym and try and rehab it every single day. You're literally just waiting for the clock to keep ticking over till your bones healed. So my way of dealing with that was to try and find other interests outside of that.

6:44Understand that there wasn't much I could do in terms of speeding up that process, but what are some of the things in my control? And doing some strength work, working on my batting, going and getting a university degree, just trying to, I guess, fill other buckets whilst I was having a little bit of a break from cricket. And when was the first time you remember playing cricket and loving it and thinking, oh, this is me? Oh, forever. Yeah, I've got two older brothers who are both cricket mad. So yeah, my earliest memories are chasing them around in the backyard. Yeah, I was that annoying kid who was turning up to my older brother's cricket games, hoping someone was sick and didn't turn up so I could go on the field for a couple of overs.

7:27And I've just always loved it. do they take the credit now your two older brothers for having trained you to become one of the greatest cricketers of all time i'll give tim credit for this because he's actually not funny but this was funny for him was uh i think in my debut match i was 18 and um a couple of tv crews went and knocked on my family home and he opened the door and he said to the tv crew i can't believe what all the fuss is about pat he still never won a backyard cricket game against me so he's very much maintained that line the last few years. Do you still play cricket with your brothers?

8:00Probably once a year around Christmas, you know, we try and play in the backyard, but, yeah, it's a little bit harder these days. Did your sisters ever play? My young sister Cara played for one or two years, but they were more netball, yeah, really sporty family. Everyone kind of had their different sports, but the boys were mainly cricket, yeah. And one of your sisters did something when you were a child that resulted in the loss of the top of one of your fingers? I was four years old. I'd just been to preschool for the day and I had five lollipops. So one for me, one for each of my siblings.

8:32And I was handing them out. Laura was in the bathroom. So I opened the door just to just cranked it open a little bit and was waving the lollipop through the bathroom door for some reason. And Laura came and slammed the door. Top of my middle finger came straight off. So the top kind of quarter of my middle finger straight onto the ground, bone sticking out, everything. So I was obviously screaming around the house, straight to hospital, and it was too small apparently to sew back on. So my middle finger on my bowling hand, my right hand is about a quarter shorter than it traditionally should be.

9:08It's so interesting. Do you think that that is part of what makes your bowling unique? Perhaps. I think it's a disadvantage, but it's all I've known. It's, yeah, I was four years old, so I know nothing different. And tell me a bit about your childhood and what that was like. And did you, you grew up surrounded by countryside and a feeling of freedom? We were kind of outskirts of Sydney. So not, not totally country, but we backed onto bush. We had a big backyard kind of in the Blue Mountains. So an hour west of Sydney and yeah, five kids, mum and dad, seven of us in the house, always playing cricket in summer and then Aussie Open come on we play tennis um try golf you know football soccer every sport you can imagine everything had to be a competition had a wonderful childhood so you described that you've got two older brothers and two younger sisters so is that right one older one younger sister okay so you're sort of in the middle of the five and I wonder what the experience of becoming a leader has been like for you?

10:16Because as the cricketing captain, you are looked to as the leader. Has that been a difficult journey? I think for most of my life, I've always been the youngest person in the room. I never really felt like a leader at all, but I suppose it's pretty good preparation in terms of always looking up to people who are a little bit more mature, a little bit maybe more worldly and kind of sitting quietly in the corner maybe and sometimes thinking, okay, I totally agree with that. I don't agree with that. I'll do it slightly differently. Whatever it is, I feel like I've been really fortunate to be in a position where I've spent loads of time with amazing, wonderful people, particularly in the cricketing world.

10:57Do you find it easy to say when you don't agree with something or someone? I don't think it comes naturally. I'd say my first instance is always trying to gain a little a bit of understanding. But if it's something I'm quite strongly believe in, then happy to say no, especially now being a leadership role as captain. It's kind of up to me to help shape that environment. Do you think that that certainty has partly come about? Because as I mentioned in the introduction, there are lots of people with a lot of opinions about you, particularly in Australia in the right wing press. So do you have to be increasingly sure of who you are away from the outside noise.

11:39Totally. Above everything else, that's the most important thing in pretty much in life. You can have some level of, you know, surety on who you are and have a wonderful group of people around you. Everything else becomes a lot more insignificant. You know, with each year, I'm caring less and less about the people that I know firsthand. I don't know how much we're allowed to talk about the book that you're writing. I think we are. Okay. Because that's how we met. Yes. So Pat was kind enough, it was a deeply flattering email to get, to say that he wanted to interview me for his new book, specifically about failure.

12:14And so we originally met over Zoom. What's the book about? So the book's called Tested. It's coming out in a few months. Such a good title. Yeah, I didn't come up with it. and I've always loved books that kind of the wisdom's been hard-earned you know real life stories of people who have done wonderful things and they're kind of sharing their their successes or failures after the event and what they'll do if they had the same situation again and you know in theory everything looks quite clean but it's those real life experience where people are you know, skin in the game where I find the most interesting stories come from.

12:54So, yeah, I thought it'd be interesting to write a book where I went and interviewed a dozen or so people I found had amazing stories to tell. And, yeah, it's just been awesome to hear some of the stories, some of the lessons learned. It's a, you know, I feel like I've selfishly got a lot more out of this book than perhaps other people will because it's just been wonderful stories. And, yeah, I look forward to being released sometime this year. I think what comes across loud and clear when you speak is your belief and my belief in the power of listening. You have great respect for other people's stories.

13:30And I think that that really shapes great leadership as well. So I can't wait for the book. Hope I made the cut. Don't even ask. I think you're in. Okay. Thank goodness. Okay, let's get on to your failures. Your first failure is about time to give to your family. because as a cricketer you're on the road so 10 months a year aren't you yeah this has been the biggest tussle especially in the last I'd say three or four years yeah we we're barely home so you know we're sitting here in um what are we July and I think I've been home for 50 hours since the late January this year so we're just always away wow yeah that's tough yeah it's busy So, you know, ever since becoming a father, so we've got little Albie who was born two and a half years ago.

14:20It just goes to another level. I think that's the one I'm always jostling with. I feel like I'm a bit better at time management now than I was. When I'm home or even when I'm on tour, really, I try and make a clear divide of what's kind of work time or cricket time and what's family time. And to be honest, I don't leave much space for much else. I'm really deliberate in how I spend my time now. But, you know, for a couple of years there, I spent too much time away, which wasn't a lot I could do about it. But even when I was home, I felt like I was, you know, said yes to too many things. I've got a little bit better at saying no, just knowing that time's finite.

14:57You say yes to things that sound good in theory and then you turn up to something. All you want to do is be home with your son. I'm getting better at it. It's always a work in progress. Talk to me about how your wife copes with it. As you say, your son Albie was born in October 2021 and you became the Australian test captain that November. So that's a lot of pressure on her. Yeah, she's a champion. No, she's the best. I wouldn't be able to do any of this without Becky. Becky had Albie start of October. And then I actually flew away four days later across to, we had a T20 World Cup. And it was still during COVID time.

15:34So flew straight over, was over there for a month. So Becky's on her own, basically. when I came back we had two weeks isolation but fortunately Becky and Abby could join join me for those two weeks and that was kind of the the light at the end of the tunnel for that month was like we're going to be together for two weeks we're going to be bunkering down no distractions just proper family time and I can um I can help out you know basically 24-7 and then about day two into this isolation I found out I was basically going to become captain of Australia and I felt like I was so not ready for that.

16:09And it was right on the eve of a really important series, an Ashes series at home. And again, my mind was just all over the shop and I felt like I wasn't particularly doing fatherhood very well. I wasn't particularly doing my new role as captain. Well, I was just scattered all over the place. So hopefully even when we ever have a second child, I'm much more present for those first few months. Did you ever think of saying no to the captaincy? Did that cross your mind? It did. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I felt like my plate was already quite full, especially just being a new father. I have a great life.

16:46I love playing cricket at that stage. I was so excited about fatherhood. And I'd just seen the previous few captains really go through the ringer. There's parts of the role that's obviously appealing, the esteem of Captain Australia, but parts of it that didn't really appeal to me too much. In the end, I decided to go for it. But if it wasn't to be and it didn't work out, I was very comfortable just going about my life. And do you and Becky have a place psychologically that you can go when it feels like you're spending too much time away or maybe she might feel disconnected from you? I think my husband and I have a good shorthand for how to communicate that.

17:29Yeah. Are you good at communicating? How do you do it? You should probably ask Becky. Please get help. No, is the answer, really. What I try to do more now and we try to do is just that kind of delayed gratification of, you know, this is a really busy month or two, but I promise I'm going to be all in for a couple of weeks after this tour when I'm going to be away or whatever it is. And I'm really strict in what I say yes and no to now, especially when I'm home or have those windows away from cricket. Have you put a miniature cricket bat into Albie's hands? Actually, I don't think I have tried a cricket bat.

18:04I've tried golf clubs. Yeah, I feel like that's more a sport that I love golf. So then if he wants to play golf, then I'm allowed to play golf. So it's perfect. But he loves throwing balls. He just pings balls around the house all day. Doesn't have much interest in much else. There's another element to this failure, which is incredibly sad. And I want to preface this by saying, I'm so sorry for your loss. And if at any point you don't want to talk about this, please tell me. And it's about losing your beloved mum. And you were on tour in India in 2023 when this was happening. Could you tell us about that?

18:45Yeah, you know, of course. And I think that's the other layer as well to kind of the end of 2021. And our being born was we knew mum didn't have very long. It was probably months more than years. Every time I was going away on a tour, I knew that was time that was finite and it was time that I could have been spending with mum. Really, really challenging. I was over in India playing in a test series when mum went into palliative care. So I flew out to India knowing that I was going to be back on a plane a week or two later, kind of flying back to be with mum. Obviously, I think mum and dad were really strong on me going.

19:24They derive so much joy from sitting together watching me play cricket on TV and representing Australia. So they were adamant that I should go. I think the other layer to it as well was, you know, they, you know, mum particularly was a super private person. Dad is as well. They don't want any fuss ever. And the nature of my role is, you know, if I'm starting to miss cricket, it kind of becomes public pretty quickly. So I felt that tussle as well, I think, of just wanting to be a son. But yeah, it was kind of half me that wanted to continue to keep playing, but the other half just wanted to be a son lying at the foot of the bed.

20:02Your mum was diagnosed with cancer. Was it breast cancer? Breast cancer, yeah. And how many years ago was that? So mum first got diagnosed in, I think it was about 2005. I was in year seven. And then the last kind of four or five where it was, yeah, I knew that it was going to be terminal. So all of your teenage years were played out against this backdrop of your mum's illness? I think mum and dad tried to protect it from us. So I remember I was 13 years old and mum and dad kind of sat us children down and was like, oh, mum's going to be sick for a little while, she's going to get some treatment, but it's only going to be six months and then she'll be back to her normal health.

20:44So I was like, oh, I'll take your word for it, whatever, no worries. Yeah, you don't realise until afterwards when you're a parent and you're an adult, just the severity of it. Yeah, once I was kind of back into my 20s, it came back and, yeah, you started to realise that, no, they'd kind of, they knew this day was going to come, whereas I probably, all of us kids probably hadn't fully grasped that. That was such an act of parental love, that shielding and protection. You said that you wanted to be a son and lie at the foot of the bed. Did you get a chance to do that? Yeah, no, so I flew back and had about 10 days in the palliative hospital with mum, dad and all my siblings.

21:24It was a really magical 10 days. We shared a lifetime full of memories and stories and lots of laughter, tears, but a really special family time, really. I'm so glad I went home. I'd be ruining that for the rest of my life if I didn't. Sometimes I speak to people who have witnessed or supported someone through the dying process, and they say that it teaches them so much about life and how to live life. Has it changed the way that you live your life? 100 % probably comes down to the time management. I'm just like so crystal clear now on like, you know, family's priority. You just can't keep kicking things down the road.

22:07You know, a lot of sports people, but, you know, maybe me in particular, you think, okay, I'll play cricket till I'm 35, 36. Albie will be six years old and then life will start and then we can start hanging out as a family. I've definitely changed my mindset now. It's like, no, I'm going to live life, you know, say a big emphatic yes to things that we want to really do as a family. You know, when we're on tour, let's make sure we have the time of our lives because when we're on tour, we're away from our families where we don't just want to watch the clock kind of tick by, bring the families along, just trying to live life a little bit more.

22:39Do you feel your mum with you when you're on the pitch? Yeah, every day. You know, I think particularly since becoming a father as well, you remember the lessons that kind of she passed down to us kids. What was her name? Maria. Yeah. And what was she like? Did everything you could imagine. So when we were really young children, she set up a play group for the community and all us kind of kids. When we got a little bit older, she created a social group for us teenagers to hang out. And then once we moved out, she started setting up some disability netball teams. She'd go and feed the charity on Wednesday.

23:18She'd never hear a bad word said about mum. She was amazing. Sounds like you learned so much about leadership from her as well as love. Totally. Yeah, 100%. That's always been instilled in us kids is, I guess, how lucky we are and not to waste that.

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24:45your second failure is having to say no to people why did you choose this one I think inherently I quite like pleasing people I'm quite curious I quite like doing things learning new things meeting people my natural kind of response to most things is yes if I don't do that I feel like I can I let people down sometimes yeah I feel like in the last kind of particularly couple of years I say no probably nine times out of ten it's just hard sometimes I've always kind of thought oh it's really hard on them me saying no but kind of in the past when I have said yes and I've gone and done spent time away from a family I kind of realized I was probably the loser in those situations so I've just it's a bit of a probably mind shift in the last year or two to kind of be really crystal clear on what my priorities are and where I want to spend my time what kind of things do you say no to you know events coffee meetings you know charities You know, even charities, you know, everyone's got a cause and most of them are amazing, but you can't help everyone.

25:46Sometimes they're the really challenging conversations you need to have, whereas I really value your charity. I think it's amazing, but I just, I can't commit to it. I just, I don't have enough bandwidth. So holidays, those kinds of things without the family, you know, like, you know, mates weekends away or whatever it is. So yeah, I find it a lot easier now, but it's taken a while to get comfortable saying no. so what's your formula for saying no because i need your help is it is it not to over explain you just said that that elegant sentence i don't have the bandwidth at the moment is that what you say yeah i'd say i've got a few different ways i've kind of tried to craft it over the years i've given away all my secrets oh no please this is this is like a public service um yeah i like that just saying you know i don't have the bandwidth at the moment the easy one for me is I'm away so much.

26:34So even if it's a random Tuesday night, I've got nothing on, that's still really precious for me. I'm only going to get 20 nights at home where I'm sitting on the couch with nothing to do. So I'll say, sorry, I'm with my family that night. So that's a no. I quite like doing blanket rules for things. So I'll be like, it's a bad example because I'm doing a podcast, but you know, can you come and do this podcast? And I'll be like, look, I've done quite a few lately. So I'm just doing a bit of a blanket rule. I'm not doing any podcast for 12 months. Yes. Yes. So it's kind of almost, I'm not the bad person.