Richard Gadd - On Shame, Sexuality and Success

0:00I even say like date two, by the way, I work so much. Like I really, really work a lot. And you should really know that. I think it's always a shock. But I actually think like we have butt scratched like the surface of sexuality in a way. Like I think there's so many complications to it, you know. I would say I get about where I was sleeping at night. You're like Margaret Thatcher. Yeah, I almost got. Because I bet that's the first time that's ever been said about you. Hello and welcome to How To Fail with me, Elizabeth Day. This is the podcast that believes every failure can teach us something in the fullness of time.

0:32Before we get into this conversation, please do remember to like, follow and subscribe so that you never miss a single episode.

0:42Hello, this is Elizabeth Day from the How to Fail podcast. I wanted to share something I'm genuinely excited about. One of my favourite UK wellness brands, Ancient and Brave, has just launched in the US. I've used two of their products in my daily routine, and they've made a tangible difference. The first is True Creatine Plus. With added taurine, vitamin D, and magnesium, it supports physical performance, energy, and cognitive function. It's easy to take at home or on the go, whether I'm working out or not. I also use their clinically studied true collagen, a pure, potent and powerful staple that supports skin elasticity and hydration as well as whole body health.

1:26It's EU sourced, so free from growth hormones or antibiotics, plus it's neutral in taste and dissolves effortlessly into coffee or smoothies or a cup of tea. I would say that as a Brit, wouldn't I? Ancient and Brave are proud members of 1 % for the planet, meaning that 1 % of their sales go to environmental causes, wellness that feel feels good and does good too. Go to ancientandbrave.com forward slash planet and use the code howtofail. That's howtofail, no spaces, all one word, for$10 off any purchase.

2:17Take the old. This is the way. Buckle up. Always wear your seatbelt. The Mandalorian and Grogu, rated PG-13. May be inappropriate for children under 13. In theatres May 22nd. Get tickets now. Richard Gad was 34 when he became really, really famous. Baby Reindeer, the seven-episode Netflix series he adapted from an award-winning Edinburgh one-man show, was a global hit of such magnitude when it was released in April 2024 that Gad briefly became the most Googled man on earth. A visit to a supermarket turned surreal when he saw his face staring out of the front page of a tabloid newspaper under the headline, Richard Gad's Struggle to Cope with Fame.

3:03The strangeness of the moment was compounded perhaps by the autobiographical darkness of his subject matter, repressed trauma, sexual identity, stalking and mental illness. The show won him six Primetime Emmys, two Golden Globes, and garnered 84.5 million views within its first 45 days. Gad has long been interested in the complexity and struggle of understanding the self. Growing up in a village in Fife, he was bullied at school but found solace in drama. He studied English literature and theatre studies at the University of Glasgow, where he began performing stand-up. By 2016, he'd won a Perrier Award at the Edinburgh Fringe.

3:48His work became known for its compulsive storytelling, blending dark comedy with a kind of philosophical kink for asking audiences the most uncomfortable questions. Now Gad returns with Half Man, a six part drama co-production between HBO and the BBC. Half Man tells the story of two brothers played by Gad and Jamie Bell over several decades, exploring the knotty bonds of trauma, the long legacy of violence, and the intense fragility and fear at the heart of male relationships. Gad created, wrote and exec produced. But despite his success, he insists that I never wanted fame. I just liked the idea that one day I would make a piece of art that was culturally important because then maybe I would learn to like myself.

4:45Richard Gad, welcome to How to Fail. Thank you. It's lovely to be here. Thank you. Thanks for that introduction. That was beautifully, beautifully done, I thought. Oh, thank you. Well, your work means a lot to me. Oh, thank you. And I'm really thrilled that you're here. Thank you. And you have a way of speaking in interviews that conveys these really profound truths in these kind of sound bites. And that idea of wanting to create something that would make you like yourself, I so relate to. And I just wonder if I can ask with a very easy, straightforward question, Richard Gad, how much do you like yourself now?

5:26it's an interesting one because i i hear it back and i i think um i hear when you said that i i guess i got a bit of a sort of like an internal jolt in a way of being like oh it's sort of i guess it didn't quite work out that way in the sense that even though i know i did make a sort of culturally impactful piece of art i have kind of learned since baby ranger came out i suppose that you know the journey for i suppose solace does come from the the inside from within in a lot of ways and i think if you do look for sort of external uh answers to internal pressures it never really quite pays off that way i think i'm still very proud that i did make a piece of art like that yes and also i wonder if there's part of you that feels the internal discomfort is what is the engine for creation so if you cure yourself of everything then there's no more creativity do you worry about that yeah it's like i'm damned either way almost but uh yeah i i do i do sometimes question that and i i certainly think like um both these shows you know and indeed all my shows have kind of been born out of a sort of quite tormented place i suppose and uh yeah i do sometimes question that i often question like um whether you know because sometimes like people have such bodies of work and as they get older they they seem to i'm not going to use any examples but like certain artists seem to their work detaches from the public in a way and it's not as resonant as their earlier work and i've always questioned whether that's like comfort they've they've arrived at a certain comfort in their life because of their success because of their fame because of their potential wealth all these kinds of things i do often question does their arcs start to peter a little bit because they're now comfortable they're happy in a way so it's that kind of um existential question of whether an artist needs to suffer in order to do good work.

7:14And I honestly don't know, but I guess it's just always been born out of my suffering in a way. Does that make sense? That's not too dark. No, it's a great place to kick off. Yeah. I just wanted to say something about the quality of your work because you do tackle these dark subjects and yet they are so compulsively conveyed that as a viewer, I cannot stop myself from watching. And I don't know how you do that, but are there ever moments that you worry this is going to be too much? I don't necessarily set out to be shocking. In fact, I definitely don't. I just think like I'm from this belief almost in a way that you sort of don't choose your writing style or what you want to write about it.

7:58It sort of chooses you. And I suppose because I've, I guess I've grown up with a lot of confusion and inconsistency and identity crises and all these things that I suppose gives birth to work that is innately, i guess complicated or challenging i think as long as you you tell a story correctly you can kind of be as shocking as you want but as long as it's not shock for shock's sake i think that's what actually leads to turn off television more than kind of thoughtful shock if that makes sense so a building towards something which is shocking in a way that is thoughtful and character and character developed and all these kinds of things i i think where shock really falls down is where it's clearly just put in there to shock.

8:40Were you surprised by the global scale of how popular baby reindeer was? Or did you always suspect that so many of us are grappling with so much trauma that there would be a degree of resonance there? It's a great question. I mean, I think the sheer level of it surprised me, like the fact that it blew up in the way that it did and the fact that it was so quick and so sudden and then and that I went from sort of being able to walk to the shops one day and then it coming with a thousand complications literally the next day I mean it came on the Thursday and by Friday I felt like everything had changed it was that sheer level of acceleration took me off guard but I never want to kind of sit here and be like oh I just didn't know I really believed in it and I believed in it I believed that it was good that it was different that it was kind of tonally kind of like something we hadn't seen before but I couldn't have anticipated what happened I mean stuff like Emmys never even came into my head like at all because I almost didn't think that that was even possible in this country for starts but so there was a level above where I thought it would go but I did believe in it enough to think it would hopefully be something.

9:55You physically transformed yourself for your role in half man was that also deliberate because you wanted to distance how recognized you were from your baby reindeer self i i knew in order for people to buy me as reuben i needed to to get away from donny dunn in almost every single way i could i was 68.8 kilograms when i shot baby reindeer so i was rake thin you know and i um i intensely like lost weight to do that. And I wanted to feel vulnerable in my body and slight, and I wanted to feel young and youthful in my body and everything. And so I knew I needed to do 180 for Ruben. And I was 110 kilograms at my heaviest when I shot Halfman.

10:41So a huge, huge difference. I was aware that Babe Randy was so ubiquitous that people might struggle to see past Donnie done therefore I needed to change everything my size my voice my beard I grew a big beard my hairstyle everything and I needed to I needed to transform um it's hard enough if you're just your job is a sole actor on something to kind of transform but doing everything else alongside it was a huge commitment so the character of Ruben in Halfman is chilling and powerful and sinister and manipulative and also charismatic and intoxicating and you've made the point before that something can't be toxic unless at first it's intoxicating, which I thought was so profound.

11:25And you do, I mean, you are utterly chilling in the role, Richard. So well done. You've nailed the transformation. I appreciate that. It's a big relief. Thank you. And Half-Man tells the story of Ruben's relationship with his sort of brother from another mother, Niall. Why is it called Half-Man? Because originally it was called something else, wasn't it? yeah yeah originally it was i i mean originally i i think i was sort of floundering for a title and like a press release run out and i just scribbled something down and it didn't really mean much of anything and i i sort of and then it stuck for ages and i was like oh dear i better do something about this title but um when half man came it felt it felt right and i i it just felt so right for the project it has so multi-reason i suppose the title i i never usually like to To say particularly, like, this is what the title means, because I sometimes think the best way of leaving sort of art is people questioning why something's been done that way.

12:25You could take it in so many ways. It can be about how a lot of men just feel incomplete as men. You know, you can take it as the fact they both need each other to feel complete. And I think that's the best kind of way to do art, I hope, or I think, is to leave people pondering a little bit. congratulations because it must have been so hard in many ways to follow up and i know that you did them back to back you did baby ranger you went straight into half man yeah and that actually brings us onto your first failure because your first failure as you put it is failure to prioritize anything but work yes yes uh without doubt i mean even talking about that i mean it was I remember it was the 13th of December, I'm trying to get my dates, 2023, I think, when I finished Baby Reindeer.

13:16And Half Man was a project that I knew I wanted to return to next. I know the BBC were very keen to get started on it. And I remember finishing Baby Reindeer, it was a sound mix, it was very late on the 13th. And then the next morning at 8am, I went into the office, had a meeting and started writing Half Man. uh literally like less than 24 hours I turned the other direction and started working on the next project and uh I think this time I'm definitely going to take a break but television is so intense doing two back-to-back like this in such a short space of time um has made me realize that that is that is a big failure in my life for sure when did that obsession with work start I've always had a sort of obsessive mind and obsessive sort of, you know, like if something, even from a young age, even like, even tiny, tiny kid, if I, like wrestling figures, I collect them en masse, you know, and become completely immersed in like wrestling figures or Boglins or I think Pokemon cards at one stage, Beanie Babies, all the rest of it, like obsessive throwing myself into everything to a huge degree.

14:27And then when it came to school, I'm not saying I was like the smartest kid in the class, but I worked so hard at school. And I always remember even my standard grades when things I knew were getting serious or when things had mattered for the future. I remember knowing in a way that, oh, this stuff matters, this in the future, this counts for something. And really putting myself through my own sort of revision, as you call it, I suppose. And to the point where my friends were like, you're mad, you're working too much. So even back at school, I felt like I was pretty ferocious worker. I went to uni and I remember, I went to like a state comprehensive school and I went to uni and I remember first thing I felt when I went there was like a real intimidation.

15:14I think a lot of like very, very smart sort of private school kids who kind of, you know, had a lot of, who were well-versed in sort of independent thinking and all this kind of stuff that I would be in tutorials and I'd be like, oh God, oh God, I feel like I'm behind here. And I always remember, I kind of struggled through my first few years of university, like not getting the grades I should have and feeling, you know, like just struggling, like really, really struggling. I remember like taking a summer off because in Scotland, you do a kind of dummy year, a couple of dummy years before it actually comes towards your degree and i remember the summer before everything i did counted towards my degree i took that summer off i stayed in glasgow all my friends moved back home went out went abroad and i went to the library and i i i read all these these books on writing essay i almost went back to basics over the summer because i was i'm doing something wrong here and i started to i worked all the way through the summer i'd write dummy essays and set myself deadlines things and then i i started to get good grades and you know i ended up getting a first at uni and i went from a first to like barely getting a from barely getting a d and i kind of realized in that moment like if you put the hours in it matters more than anything like and i always like say to any writers like how do i be a writer it doesn't matter your intelligence where you come from your upbringing anything it's about the hours you put into it like it's it's hard work trumps everything intelligence upbringing I've long learned that like hard work is is the absolute key to anything in life if you want something bad enough for sure it's so interesting talking to you because I feel that there are certain elements that I really relate to and I mentioned in the introduction that you were bullied at school and I was slightly too I mean nowhere near the level that you experienced it didn't get physical with me but I also worked incredibly hard and still do And I wonder whether you feel, as I do, reflecting on this, that there's something about hard work that you think makes you feel lovable or makes you feel safe.

17:16Yeah, I think for me, certainly safe. I think that's it. I think I know where I stand when I'm working. I think I sort of, I feel perhaps confident in a work film in a way that I don't in sort of life sometimes. I'm not saying I find it easy. Like work, as we both know, is supremely challenging all the time in so many different ways. But I don't know, it just seems to make sense with me. And sometimes when I take a day off, which is so rare, like so rare that I take a day off, this is going to sound so bleak, but I sometimes feel like something's missing. Like I almost don't know how to plug into the world.

17:48Like I sometimes find like work can be so intense, especially the pressure of television where like every minute counts and you have to get film, you have to get everything filmed by the end of the day. The pressure is so unimaginable sometimes, but there is also like an addictive sort of adrenaline to it all where it's like a thrill like it's a real thrill and i think that is sort of quintessential workaholism in a way do you feel you have to work to a certain level in order to be accepted or loved i honestly sometimes think like i've i've become so lost in work in both good in good ways and sort of intense ways to the point where I almost don't know why other than I just feel so compelled to sort of do it almost like it's just like such a part of me now that my life kind of revolves around it and I'm sort of in it and I enjoy it and I'm kind of addicted to it.

18:45It just becomes, it just is the way it is now. And I think like, I sort of love it. I think I sort of love it in a way. It's weird. I feel like I had that revelation just then, but I think I must do to do it this much. And I think there's no feeling like working hard at something and feeling it come together. Well, you said to me when you were writing about this failure that it gives you a strong sense of purpose and satisfaction. Yeah, yeah. But you also admitted that you've neglected relationships as a result of it and self-care. So what are some of the extremes that work has taken you to in that respect?

19:21Well, I think, you know, I am, you know, 36, uh, single, which kind of says it all in a way, you know, I, I, I have such a close group of friends. I think I'm the only one who's single. It doesn't bother me. I think it used to a little bit. It doesn't, it doesn't bother me at all, uh, anymore, uh, because I actually think it's, I almost think everyone should go through a sort of enforced, like at least three year period by themselves. I think it actually makes you stronger in a way but i think that i think a lot of relationships i get into with amazing people very special people in early i think i think people are quite amazed by how much i work i think people and sometimes i even say like date two by the way i work so much like i really really work a lot and you should really know that and i think there's always a thing well he might sleep at 8 p.m every day or you know monday friday or something but i think it's always a shock for people.

20:16And I think because work has always taken the number one place in my life, people can find that quite hard and rightfully so, to not be the kind of number one thing, especially when you're looking forward. Certainly at my age, when you meet someone, it is about like, what does the future hold at this age? Because, you know, when you meet people sort of similar age or whatever, and I think that, you know, people sometimes take one look at someone who works this hard and thinks maybe this isn't quite right. So to come back to, I suppose the sense of failure I do I do sometimes think I fail to prioritize anything in my life over over work and and I think that can be I suppose a failure at times yeah and with something like half man where you are wearing so many different hats yeah how hard do you work like practically what does your day look like I mean it is crazy I get up about half five I'll have a coffee and like a breakfast and then i'll i'll head into the edit suite for about six i'll do i'll try and get all my sort of emails and sort of admin stuff done before people come in around nine and then i'll work with the editors the mixers the producers everything up until about seven eight and then i'll stay till about 10 catching up on things and then i'll go home and probably do some more stuff i i i tend to you know like it's a hbo show so america wakes up later on as well and i'm always happy to stack till about midnight but i would say i get about four hours sleep at night probably you're like margaret thatcher yeah that's the first time that's ever been said about you yeah well i almost quoted her a second ago because i almost said i'm on the margaret thatcher uh i'm on the margaret thatcher routine at the moment you once uprooted your life and moved to a different city for work yes didn't you tell us that story yeah well a year and a year and a half the show was filmed in Glasgow and uh the show was filmed in Glasgow and edited up there and everything like that and I just was like well if that's where the show is that's where I've got to be but I I think it's I I think it would be rare I would say that a lot of showrunners um would uproot their life for a year and a half to somewhere else and live and it is a bit of a note to self being like well that is that is a big that is quite a big sacrifice you know being in the city you're away from all your friends that is it i think it shows just how extreme sometimes my commitment to work can be as i mentioned earlier your career started out doing stand-up shows i mean they weren't straight comedy there was sort of theatrical aspect too and and you have been very open about the fact that you know what it's like to perform to no one for one person to turn up and for you to take him to the bar is there part of you that feels you want to make the most of the attention that you're getting now because there's a fear that it might go away fear it might go away it's a good question i i tell you what i think drives me more is the fear that if i take you know how like um like mma fighters or boxers talk about ring rust i don't know that tell me i've heard about ring rust it's kind of like um basically if a boxer or an mma fighter takes too long away from the cage or the ring or whatever uh the whole idea is they develop ring rosters and they forget how to fight and i i often sometimes worry if i take too long away from being creative will i forget how to do it spring is in the air which means now is the time to save during spring outdoor power deals at the Home Depot.

23:45Make cleanup easier when you go cordless with the Milwaukee M18 String Trimmer, designed to deliver more runtime, more speed, and maximum performance. Then grab a select Milwaukee fuel attachment, like the pole saw, edger, or brush cutter, included at no extra cost when you buy the Milwaukee M18 String Trimmer. Shop seven days of spring outdoor power deals at the Home Depot, now through April 29th. What if you could have the most reliable Wi-Fi at the same price for five years? That's the Xfinity five-year price guarantee. No annual contracts, no hidden fees, and our best equipment included. Plus, get online in minutes with same-day Wi-Fi.

24:23Just five years of fiber-powered Wi-Fi that boosts speeds to the devices that need them most. Lock in your price and unlock the possibilities. Xfinity. Imagine that. Select plans only. Restrictions apply. Powered by fiber. Connected to the premises by coaxial cable. Actual speeds vary. Everyone knows that unexplainable it factor. That smile that lights up a room. That wow. Well, it doesn't happen by itself. There's chemistry behind the charisma. Colgate Optic White Pro Series toothpaste removes 15 years of deep-set stains when you brush twice daily for two weeks. How? The clinically proven formula is powered by Colgate's hydrogen peroxide complex.

24:59It works at the molecular level to gently dissolve stains deep within the enamel where your brush can't reach. It's proof that daily routine can be remarkable. That's the science of wow. Colgate Optic White. your father is a noted microbiologist yes which i find fascinating yeah because microbiology is the art of looking at small things that are the stuff of life yes yeah absolutely can you see a connection between what he does and what you do my yeah i guess there is a sort of overlap with kind of looking at things in sort of forensic detail i suppose i've always wondered whether my dad always wanted me to go into science i guess he probably probably doesn't he probably doesn't think too much about it now but uh but yeah i just never i always remember at school i'd always like excel in like the kind of art subjects you know history and the english and all that kind of stuff drama and all that stuff and i would always like find the maths and the chemistry and the biology and the physics really quite tricky actually yeah i did single science and my dad's a surgeon so i hear you you've spoken very warmly about your parents yeah yeah and the support that they've given you the work that you put out into the world do you think it's made you closer to them i think so i i don't know it's it's a good question i i i sometimes wonder what they what they do think they're always like so supportive like they've never ever told me even from a young age when i said oh look i want to try and be an actor and a writer and i want to i want to write my own show and be in it like i'm sure a lot of alarm bells goes off in most parents head like the the child becoming an actor like which is what is it like 1 % or 2 % of actors actually make it or whatever.

26:39I'm sure it's like an alarm bell, but they never ever said no or discouraged me or anything like that, which I think is a testament to them as parents really, because I, I think it would be very easy not to. I sometimes think I had a kid and they were like, I want to be an actor. I'd be like, Oh God, really? Because it's tough and it's a tough life, but I think like they've never discouraged me and they've always watched everything I've done and they've always been super supportive and nonjudgmental.

27:05There's you know and i admit to a lot of things that i think it's uncomfortable i'm sure my parents find baby reindeer episode four uncomfortable to watch you know remind us what happens in episode four oh well that's the flash by the kind of famous baby reindeer episode where it kind of goes back in time he meets a man at the festival there's this kind of a grooming abuse storyline that kind of goes on with it and you know they've seen all that and but but of course they knew about all that anyway and and and so they've just been nothing but supportive really i've got a screening tonight like four half man and they're down to see it yeah i'm very blessed to have their support my life when you say they knew about that that's because you also are a survivor of sexual assault yeah yeah yes and they yeah they knew about that yeah you work with a charity why is that important for you yeah we are survivors they're they're they're amazing i mean i mean we i came across we are survivors very very early on and i was kind of like a kind of bumbling comedian when I sort of came across them and they sort of reached out.

28:05I'd done Monkey See Monkey Do, I think, actually, which was the Edinburgh show I did back in 2016, which is where I first started to sort of merge comedy with abuse, which kind of sounds a bit odd, but it's not like I was making fun of it or whatever. It was like I did a show basically where I ran on a treadmill. I was escaping a giant monkey. And when I say it out loud, it sounds so bonkers, but you heard like voices in my head as I was trying to come to terms with sort of like a sexual abuse that happened in my past and you know it kind of changed my life it was this thing where you know I think actually that was when I told my friends I was like look I'm going to Edinburgh to do this show and you should know what I'm about to say and about to do but I remember when I was doing that show where's if I was got wind of it and they reached out and I sort of went and met the amazing man called Duncan Craig, who's been a brilliant, not just a brilliant sort of colleague, if that's the right word, like a brilliant friend, a brilliant person, does a lot for so many people.

29:05And I think it's a great charity. And I had never put my name to something that I thought was, wasn't doing, but they do the most amazing work and the most amazing help for, for men who have been through, through this kind of stuff. And, um, they're going from strength to strength and I think they're amazing and they've helped me down the years. You know, I'm not, I'm an ambassador, but I've also, you know, early on, I have used use their services and can testify to how amazing they are. I think it's so important that you do what you do with We Are Survivors. And I think it has helped an enormous amount of people.

29:37And I was thinking of you recently with Giselle Pellico and the book that she published and her famous quote, which is that she rebukes the shame. The shame is not hers to carry and i think that your work goes such a long way in reminding men of that yeah it's not something to be ashamed of that is it's put simply but i get how it can feel that way and that can be very hard to shed you can say it's not but sometimes the way your synapses have been wired as a result of sort of trauma or something means that it will circle back to that so you can say and sometimes i think that the human brain has the capacity to sort of feel something before you think it you have the ability to sort of rationalize it and i think sometimes you can almost like you know i remember in the aftermath of it i felt like everyone could see it on me like i was keeping this big secret you'd be at like a cash register you know something and then you'd be like paying for your shopping and the cashier looks at you like you know it's because you feel it before you think it you're like what is that feeling and you're like oh it's because of that and it's because of this.

30:41And so sometimes you feel shame before you have the ability to rationalize shame. And that can be very difficult to do. So it has to be a sort of internal process of acceptance, I think, in order to get rid of that. Yeah, it's very complicated. I'd love to say it's not something to be ashamed of, but I'd almost rather say, I understand that you feel that shame and you will get through it through a process of acceptance that will take time you know so it's very complicated that sense that an imprint as you put it that your fear is that people can see it on you when you were going through that process of baby reindeer of being recognized all the time and having your face staring at you from newspaper front pages was there a sense of re-triggering was did that did it feel similar shame and fame did they feel similar uh it's interesting because i always went the other way and i thought oh everyone's going to know this about me now and i i sort of release it kind of was in a way i do sometimes like marvel at how the journey has gone you know like it's been like god knows how many way way over a decade like way over and and sort of from from kind of dare not speak it out loud for for for fear you might admit the truth of what happened kind of thing so it's because today's got to stay and it's got to all the way to sort of what was it like 250 million people have watched it now it's it's kind of a crazy journey that's i suppose an indicator that that things can improve and can get better with time i i think i i think it did help it was kind of that could pull off the pull off the band-aid thing yeah and i i sort of you i can sometimes think that when people come up oh they must be thinking this they must be thinking that but it doesn't doesn't bother bother me as much anymore i really don't think it's anything to be ashamed of no and there's your work again the work is the salve yeah yeah yeah let's get on to your second failure which is your failure to compromise yes in your words richard i can be quite stubborn and tend to hold on to things in principle even when they are small or not especially important yeah are you petty petty petty is an interesting word i think if i if i feel i'm right about something but i might not be right i i think i could be quite unyielding in in sort of having my mind changed about certain things i suppose and does that exist in personal relationships as well as professional ones yeah i think so i mean this i i suppose it i don't know whether it was like the way i was brought up to a certain degree you know i would i'd say my dad taught me the art of being kind of you if something is bothering you you know you sort of speak your mind i think it's quite healthy in a way like i think in a lot of ways but the thing is like the worst thing is when you've been stubborn and then you realize two days later actually maybe i shouldn't have been stubborn and I'm struggling to think of examples here like outside of work but uh you see I haven't been in a relationship for so long give me an example from work if you have one is there something that everyone was saying no don't you can't put that in the script or you can't do that Richard and then you sucked your guns and you did it well I mean I mean the biggest one I think is probably Jess Jess Gunning really well I mean I was so unyielding in the fact she had to be Martha that I was sort of willing to alienate everyone in order to get her on the show there was a lot of things that would be rainy like it was obviously the right the right choice um for so many reasons i mean it's in my opinion i'm biased obviously but i'm one of the best performances ever i think on tv i think she auditioned like six times you know in the end and she came in for the first one and i knew straight away that that it was martha like i i knew straight away this was what i wanted out the character funny kind of cute but sort of slightly like a bit unhinged and capable of switching and vulnerable you know like a lot of i saw the most amazing amazing actors for that role there was always a sense of perhaps playing the the madness a bit too much you know which is very very easy to do i've been so gail you're still playing the character in editions and stuff like that but she came in and she played the the truth which i suppose is i think people in editions think they actors think that you look for good acting i don't think actually like sort of producers and that directors look for good acting they look for truth almost in a way like this kind of window into a character's soul and i just saw it and i i think there was a lot of baby reindeer was quite like fought for ip at that stage and there was a lot of talk about you know a lot of famous people being in the the role being in especially the role of martha which was an actor's dream in a lot of ways you know and i i really did not want a famous person in that show i just didn't i thought that it would become a vehicle for their fame and i think like i i really am all for and i urge directors production companies everything to cast unknowns because i think it allows you to to see the art more clearly i think if we watch the office and bad example but brad pitt was playing david brent it would be like isn't brad pitt doing an amazing amazing turn as this guy running this office but we believed it because we hadn't really heard of Ricky Gervais before and therefore we believe that David Brent was an actual living breathing human being desperate to be liked failing as a boss we wouldn't have bought into the art as much and so I'm extremely pro casting unknowns but there were some extraordinary that I'm not allowed to say actors who wanted to play Martha like extraordinary and I think people on the process thought I was crazy saying no crazy but it had to be Jess Gunning it had to be i'm so glad she's miraculous in that role yeah yeah this inability to compromise as you put it do you think it also it's a weird question bear with me affects how you perceive of your own sexuality uh because i'm always really interested in the way you talk about your sexuality you've said that the closest approximation is probably bisexual but it's it's sort of more than that isn't it it's more nuanced it's i mean forgive me because this is my interpretation of what you're saying but for for me when i read what you said about it it's more about the person than any other label and i think others sometimes struggle to not put a label on people's sexuality yeah i think I think sometimes labels around sexuality can tend to be quite a sort of like normative societal thing.

37:16Like you have to be one of any three. And I still think a large portion of society don't believe you can be one of the three. I don't believe you could be bisexual. I always think that it's still a large portion of society that believes you sort of can, you're one or the other. But I actually think like we have but scratched like the surface of sexuality in a way. Like I think there's so many complications to it. You know, I always think that a lot of people are attracted to say femininity across all spectrums of sort of gender, you know, or masculinity across all spectrums of gender and sex. And I think we're so complicated in a lot of ways.

37:52And I think every time I've tried to say I'm this way and I'm going to leave the house today and I'm going to be this and this is the way I'm going to be, like nothing's ever really stuck. And I just don't realize that it's almost like I'm just kind of exhausted of asking myself the question almost in the way. I almost just think like I'm like a bit restless. I'm a bit confused. It's like it's discombobulating to me. But I think like I've learned to sort of accept that. Yeah, but I suppose bisexual is like the way I say it's kind of the easiest way of helping other people sort of understand it, I suppose, in a way.

38:24But even when I say it now, I'm just like, is that right? I'm not sure. You're in the question in a way, which is. Yeah, but I think in the question, I suppose, would imply that I was sort of still looking for an answer. I don't think an answer is going to come. I think it's quite, I think people more than people care to admit. I think sometimes when they are bisexual or have bisexual leanings, that when they're with one, they sort of are like, oh, I kind of question, but I want the other one. And then when they're with that one, they question, they want the other one. And there can be a bit of a seesaw, like a sense of restlessness.

38:58Something from people that I know. I don't really know where it'll end up I I still more than anything at one stage in my life want kids for sure I was about to say yeah I can so see you as a parent yeah yeah I'd love to I'd love to but it has to be right little gadettes gad babies that's what I'll call them yeah they won't have names they'll just be the gad babies but but I uh I do I do I do want kids you know it has to be right and I think you know I have to be sort of settled and I have to probably come back to failure, you know, create a few boundaries for work and create a good environment there.

39:33So, you know, there's work to do, you know, before that. But so, yeah, I do really want kids one day.

39:58This episode is brought to you by Ferrero. Soccer's biggest stage is approaching, and Ferrero is making it easy to go all in. Pick any two Ferrero brands from Kinder Bueno to Ferrero Rocher, and you could win the$1 million grand prize, plus an exciting range of daily and weekly prizes. Don't miss your shot. Official rules apply. Learn more at GoAllIn and win.com. This episode is brought to you by Redfin. You're listening to a podcast, which means you're probably multitasking. Maybe even scrolling home listings on Redfin. Saving homes without expecting to get them. But Redfin isn't just built for endless browsing.

40:38It's built to help you find and own a home. With agents who close twice as many deals, when you find the one, you've got a real shot at getting it. Get started at redfin.com. Own the dream. Do you bear a grudge? A pair of grudge? shud. Just generally, do you have grudges? I think I've actually learned to get a lot better. I remember once somebody saying to me, like, resentment is drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. And I remember being like, oh God, that's so true. You know, like, I've definitely been in periods in my life where somebody's, you know, that phrase living rent free inside your head where somebody has just been going round and round and round and round.