Rita Wilson - ‘I’m 69. I’m At My Most Unfiltered.’

0:00How have your 60s been? 69, a very sexy age. It's the sexiest age. Your whole job, if you're an actor, is mostly failing. You don't get every job that you go up for. You, you know, it's one out of 10, I suppose. And there's something really great about working with women. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with me, Elizabeth Day. This is the podcast that believes at the root of failure, there is the chance for growth. Before we get into this episode, please do remember to like, follow and subscribe so that you never miss a single conversation.

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1:45Go to ancientandbrave.com forward slash planet and use the code howtofail. That's howtofail, no spaces, all one word, for$10 off any purchase. Now at McDonald's, wake up to a$4 breakfast meal deal. Wake up to a sausage McMuffin or a sausage biscuit, to hash browns, and wake up to a hot coffee. Get your $4 breakfast meal deal. Limited time only. Prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher for delivery. My guest today is quite possibly the only woman who bears the distinction of having both a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame and a Greek postage stamp to her name. She is Rita Wilson, acclaimed actor, singer and producer, born Margarita Ibrahimov in Los Angeles to a Greek mother and a Bulgarian father who emigrated to the States in 1949.

2:37Wilson wanted to be a singer from a young age, but she ended up at the London Academy for Dramatic Arts and soon got parts in sitcoms including Bosom Buddies, where she starred opposite her future husband, Tom Hanks. Notable movie roles followed, including Runaway Bride, It's Complicated and a scene-stealing turn in Sleepless in Seattle when she memorably bursts into tears recounting the plot of an affair to remember. As producer, she was the driving force behind developing theatrical productions of My Big Fat Greek Wedding and Mamma Mia into some of the highest grossing movies of all time. Alongside this, she has a successful musical career, releasing albums since 2012 and reaching the top of Amazon's Singer-Songwriter chart.

3:31Known for her collaborations with major artists such as Elvis Costello and Willie Nelson, she now returns to her solo work with her sixth album, Sound of a Woman, released in May. I've come to a stage in my life where I'm only now just finding my voice, both metaphorically and literally, Wilson says. Many times I felt muted, not necessarily by the world itself, but by my own sense of propriety as a very private person in a very public life and profession. Rita Wilson, welcome to How to Fail. Hi, Elizabeth. So nice to be here, really. Thank you. Oh, it's so lovely to have you sitting opposite me.

4:14And I'm sorry I stumbled over the Sleepers in Seattle recollection, but truly one of the greatest scenes of all time. There is a naturalism to your performance on screen, and I'm going to get onto your music in a minute, But that naturalism, I wonder how hard it is to stay so natural when you're being filmed. Well, everybody should have the luxury of being able to say Nora Ephron's words. That screenplay was written by Nora Ephron, who also directed the film, and her sister Delia Ephron. And if you have good material, that's it. Then your job is done for you. Her scripts are actually quite musical.

4:54They have a rhythm and a tempo for comedy. So we had gotten a few of the takes down. And at the end, I said, may I try something? Because the scene actually continued on a little bit further than what Nora had written. And I said, do you want me to just continue on like maybe a little improv? And she said, yes, try it. But because Tom's character and Victor Garber's character didn't know that was coming, then they improvised the whole scene about that's a chick's flick and that reminds me of the dirty dozen and the guys jumping off and how that made the men cry and so Nora kept it in which was really great and I was very you know surprised that she did that.

5:43And talky of musicality brings us to your album Sound of a Woman and I'm very interested in some of your lyrics So there's a track called Michelangelo, which I love because the whole premise of that track is that there is something beneath this rock that is gradually sort of carved out and there is the woman beneath. Can you talk to us a bit about that track and what you were trying to say with it? Yes. There was a quote that I used to have on my bulletin board, and it was a quote from the artist Michelangelo. And someone had asked him, how do you carve these spectacular statues out of these massive, massive chunks of marble?

6:31And he said, I see the angel in the marble and I carve until I set him free. And when I read that, it just, it opened something up for me because I think as humans, we all have a vision for ourselves. Like, who do we really want to be? And I think as women, we come in and it's so easy to assign labels to women. Oh, you're such a sweet young girl, or you're a sassy teen, or, well, you're a little bit of a workaholic, or, you know, what a great mother you are, or you're a wonderful wife. And all of those things are wonderful and they're beautiful, but they're also the sort of superficial exterior things.

7:21And I think we spend so much of our lives shedding those identities that don't work for us anymore until we get to a place like now where I am, which is literally, you know, I guess the most unfiltered place you can be when you get to a certain age where you just don't care what anybody thinks. And you can tell the truth more fully. What's the most annoying label that people have given you that you are delighted to have shared? You know, it's a series of labels because I grew up in a generation where, you know, I was very much influenced by my mom's generation. My mom and dad, you know, were, I'm a first generation American, so my mom and dad were immigrants.

8:11And dad was from Bulgaria, as you mentioned, and my mom was from Greece. and then so I had values that were very very traditional and then I'm in this little middle section and ahead of me were already these women like Gloria Steinem and Bella Abzug and feminists who were fighting for women's rights and I knew that that was incredible like I thought wow this is very different than what I'm growing up with but I was a little too young to sort of go off and burn my bra or go to Woodstock. But I was very keenly aware of the strides that they were making for financial equality, job equality, glass ceilings that we all know about, women's rights.

9:01And so I've always been straddling those two generations. So the labels, I can say, are I always wanted to do the right thing by my parents because they were the greatest people and I loved them. So I was not much of a rebel. So I think my rebel phase is coming much later in my life. I think shedding, putting good in front of anything. You know, we're always a good daughter, a good wife, a good girl, a good worker, a good student, you know. And so I'm enjoying discovering, you know, like shaking it up a little bit. Yes. And although I don't believe this because you are so unbelievably gorgeous and youthful, apparently you're 69.

9:55That's right, lady. Bring it. I own it. How have your 60s been? 69, a very sexy age. It's the sexiest age.

10:09Well, here's the thing, though. I really feel that we are only limited by, well, that could be a label. What does that mean? What does that mean to be 69? It means that I'm living my fullest life. You know, the sands in the hourglass are going fast now. You know, they're coming through there in a much quicker tempo than when you're 16. or 19. And boy, that really encapsulates what it is that you want to be doing with the rest of the time that you have left on this planet. And, you know, I started, as I said, started doing music in my 50s. And I struggled with that because I thought, I don't know anybody who has done it.

10:55I didn't have a role model for that in music, but there are role models all over in poetry, in journalism, in writing, in painting. And there are so many women who got later starts. And a friend of mine who's, you know, we've been friends for many, many years, Bruce Springsteen, one time we were talking and having a conversation about songwriting. And he was basically giving a little mini master class on songwriting, kind of like very, very quiet and listening to him. And when he paused, I said, okay, Bruce, then I have a question. What makes me think that I can start writing now when you've been doing it all your life?

11:44And he said, because, Reitz, creativity is time independent. And that to me is so true because I thought to myself, absolutely right. Who's the one that sets the clock on creativity? Who is the one that says, oh, sorry, that window, according to my creativity clock, passed for you. That was supposed to happen at 32 and a third and you missed that window. I'm sorry, no I wouldn't have been able to write the songs then that I'm writing now I wouldn't have been able to do it I didn't have a voice to say these things then So I'm very thankful that it's happening at this point in my life And really, so much of creativity comes through wisdom Which comes through lived experience So actually, the older you are in a conventional sense, in many ways, the more creative you can be because the more you can draw on.

12:46Can I also just say that I love the sound of your friendship group, like Nora Ephron and Bruce Springsteen, sign me up. That's like, wait, that's not name dropping because, you know, I really mean that, you know. It didn't come across as name dropping at all. Okay, good. I know of several people personally who have been helped by work that you've put into the world. Pieces that you've written. You wrote this extraordinary piece about breast cancer and surviving breast cancer for Harper's Bazaar, which was beautiful. Maybe we could come on to that. But also my big fat Greek wedding. My aunt is Greek.

13:20Yes. And you are a hero in that household. And like my two cousins who are like sisters to me, obviously, are half Greek. and they felt so seen by the story that you brought to screen. You know, but this is the thing. Like, again, I want to credit, you know, the writer Nia Vardalos because really she wrote something that was so, to me, it was so specific to my life and my upbringing. I loved that we could look at our own cultural heritage and be able to embrace it and love it and also understand that, you know, it may not apply to everybody. And yet if you're with somebody who's not from that same cultural heritage, that it might seem like really outside the box for them.

14:11I found this play when it was in a 99-seat theater. And I saw the little ad in the paper, which was about an inch big. And it said, My Big Fat Greek Wedding, Nia Vardalis. And I thought, just that title made me laugh. So I went to see it. I thought, worst comes to worst, I took my mom and my sister and my nieces. Worst comes to worst, we've seen a bad play, but we had a great dinner beforehand. And it ended up being the most fun play. And afterwards, I asked to meet the writer, who was Nia. And she came out and I said to her, gosh, this is so good. And I think it would make an amazing movie. And she said, I have a script.

14:51And I said, let me have it. And that's how it happened. Did your mom love it too? She loved it. Oh, she told the funniest story after she saw the movie, which by the way, we could not get a distributor for. We could not get anybody to finance it. Nobody wanted it. But even after the movie was finished, our distributor sort of just bailed and said, I don't get it. And of course, you know, it became the greatest, the biggest grossing independent movie of all time, which very grateful for that. But my mom, after she saw the movie for the first time, I said, Mom, what did you think of the movie? And she said, Oh, this movie is funny.

15:33This is very, very funny. These people are crazy. They're not like us. And I was like, No, not at all, Mom. They're totally like us. By the way, my sister has a house next to my mother's. So when they were alive, they had the houses next to each other, my mom and dad. Yeah. And was your mother using Windex for every minor ailment? No, that's all me. I didn't know anything about Windex.

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18:04Your first failure is dropping out of college. and then being rejected from true drama schools before being waitlisted at Lambda here in London. So tell us this story, because from what I understand, singing was your first love. It was. So how did you end up applying for drama school? Back in the day when I was working, I started working when I was 15 and a half, and I got my Screen Actors Guild, my union card, doing an episode of The Brady Bunch. And that sort of got me into acting. and I was working. I worked all the time. I did commercials. I did television shows. I modeled. I just never stopped working.

18:47But in my head, that wasn't really a job. That was sort of like, this is what you can do right now. But a job to me was being a teacher, which was what my sister was going to be. And I didn't really think that you could make a living being an actor. And yet, I was doing that. So I applied to community college, which back then was called junior college. And those were only for two years. And then you would take that two-year degree and then go on to a college to finish and get your baccalaureate, bachelor's degree. So I went to the first junior college and I was taking general ed classes. And this one junior college was kind of far away and it was a long commute.

19:44So I decided to transfer to one that was closer. And I was taking all my general ed classes, you know, English and history and just the same things that you would have taken in high school. I kept having to, you know, retake a class over and over again because I couldn't be there and I would miss classes because I was working, but I also had to support myself. And so it was always a conflict of being able to, do I take the job or go and do this class. And, you know, our business was paying really well back then. And I would take the jobs, but I knew I wanted to stay in college because it was so important to my parents.

20:31You know, they didn't have really high school or college education, but I knew that it was so important to them because they impressed upon us that if you have a college degree, then you would have a much better chance at having a better job. My dad was a bartender, and my sister was the first person in our family to actually get a college degree. So I felt like an utter, complete disappointment when I had that conversation with my parents, which was, I don't think I should stay in college because I think acting is my real job. And it was also back then, if you were an actor and you were a woman, and believe me, I was only a teenager back then, it had a little bit of a taint to it.

21:24Like, oh, you're, you know, like a loose lady or something, you know, you were, It wasn't a respectable job. And so that was also like a little scary to me because my mom used to say to me, your reputation is very important. You know, once you lose that, it's very hard to get it back. And so I had these old school ideas of like, am I going to lose my reputation by being, you know, in this business? But I went for it and I have to credit my parents for never telling me I couldn't do something. They never put their foot down and said absolutely not. So I really credit my parents for not shutting that down for me.

22:08What was Hollywood like in the 1970s? Fantastic. Oh my gosh, it was everything. I mean, I was born and raised in Hollywood, California. I went to Hollywood High School. It was the only town I ever knew. It was my hometown, but I knew people came from all over the world to try to make their dreams come true there. But, I mean, Sunset Boulevard was our street. That's where we went. I mean, we would go to the Whiskey A Go-Go. We would go to the On the Rocks or the Roxy. You know, there were so many music venues to go and listen to music and dance clubs, and it was fantastic. Laurel Canyon, the Laurel Canyon scene.

22:49It was everything that you think it would be. It was that. I'm so jealous. It was really fun. Would you see Joni Mitchell walking along Laurel Canyon sidewalk? No, but my parents met Joni Mitchell once and they knew how much I loved her. And they met her at this little restaurant and it's still there called Dan Tana's right next door to the Troubadour. And my mom and dad came home from dinner one night and they said, we met Joni Mitchell. She's so nice. and she came and she sat down at the table and talked to them because my mother happened to be in the ladies room with her and recognized her.

23:27And Joni came and sat down with my parents and talked to them. That's how incredible she was. Wow. I know, but oh my gosh, can I add this one story? Yes. You're not taking too long? No. Please take all the time you need. Okay, so my high school was Hollywood High and our class was too big, so we didn't graduate from the high school. We graduated from the Hollywood Bowl. And we would wear our caps and gowns and get our diploma on the Hollywood Bowl stage. That was in 1974. In 2024, Brandi Carlile did the Joni Jam, which is Joni Mitchell and other people singing all of Joni's songs. and Joni was on stage and Brandi said, would you come in and be part of the Joni Jam, which means you're singing the harmonies and singing along with Joni.

24:26And some of the people that were those people were Elton John, Annie Lennox, Alison Russell, Meryl Streep, and John Batiste and Jacob Collier. Okay, no pressure. You're right, no pressure. It occurred to me, that was 50 years to the year of graduating high school. And if somebody had said to me when I was getting my diploma, you're going to be back on this stage. I've never stepped on that stage since my high school graduation, and I'm from Hollywood. In 50 years, you're going to be back on this stage singing with your idol Joni Mitchell. I would have said okay first of all why is it taking 50 years but I'm so glad I'm there I mean the that just blew my mind I could I still can't get over it when it when I think about it and that is why Hollywood whatever it's going through right now is the place where you can write those stories it is the place where you can make your dreams come true yeah full circle moment So how did you end up in Lambda?

25:33So more failure to come here, Elizabeth. I was cast in a play, but it was in a very small theater, but it was all good people. And the director of the play was also an actor. And he said to me, you know, you seem to really like the stage. Have you ever gotten any formal training? And I said, no. And he said, I said, what do you mean formal training? because, you know, I'd been working. I'd been doing a lot of television. And he said, you know, like stage training, voice, movement, classical literature and plays. And I was like, no, where do you go to get that? And he said, well, there's places like RADA.

26:15There's places like Lambda, a place called Juilliard in New York. And he put me together with a woman who had just come from Lambda. And she told me about the program. And I thought, this is incredible. and at that point, I don't know if they still do it, but they had had a one-year overseas program. Usually their course was three years. So I figure out how to apply and I figure I might as well apply to all the drama schools that he mentioned. So I applied to RADA, I applied to Juilliard, and I applied to Lambda and they all come to the U.S. to audition people. So I did my auditions and then you wait and you wait and you wait to hear.

26:56And I get turned down from Juilliard. I get turned down from RADA. And then I got waitlisted at Lambda. And I thought, oh my God. And I would call them like, hi, is there any chance that you know yet if I'll be accepted? I mean, I didn't know why I was being waitlisted because I was already a professional. I was a little bit older than kids just getting out of high school. So I was probably like 23 or something, as opposed to 18. And when I got the call that I was accepted, I was ecstatic, ecstatic. And it was one of the greatest years of my life. But it was scary because I definitely thought I was, I had already failed two other auditions and didn't get in.

27:50And then being waitlisted is a failure also because you're like, it's not just a slam dunk. And I loved that course. And I remember the principal at the end of our course, at the end of the year, he came into the class and he said, I want you to look around and only five of you will still be doing this in five years. and I was like, don't look at me. I'm going to be doing it in five years. I'm not one of the others. I think we were maybe a group of 30. I was like, speak for yourself, sir. But I think it is true because I think, so I already was experienced with rejection and not getting jobs. I mean, your whole job if you're an actor is mostly failing.

28:42You don't get every job that you go up for. you know it's one out of ten I suppose so I was bound to prove him wrong which I think I did I hope I did I mean forget five years you'll hear 50 years later yeah exactly you you often on screen have played a really good friend and I feel like you would be a really good friend in real life but maybe we can come on to that because friendship's one of the subjects I'm most passionate about love my friendships love my friendships there's one friend that you play in it's complicated opposite meryl street again and one again one of the greats nancy myers like i i i've always wanted to ask you about this it's so weird it's like i've manifested you because the again the naturalism of that group of friends on screen i felt so understood by it And it felt so real.

29:42How much of it was real? Did you develop a real friendship? Again, I have to say so much of what makes an actor's job easy is good writing. I do have to say that Nancy also was very much trying to create this camaraderie of girlfriends. and she did that and you do have that moment when you're working opposite Meryl that like every film she's ever done flashes in front of your eyes this was before we had done Mamma Mia so I didn't know her as well and it was just so lovely to to work with her and work with those ladies and there's something really great about working with women maybe that's what it is that's what I was picking up on.

30:37Yeah, there's something really great. I was doing an indie film and it was all women. And I was driving home and I thought, gosh, I'm in such a good mood. And why am I in such a good mood? And I realized, oh, I'm working with all women. And then I thought to myself, oh, this is what it must feel like for men every day when they go to work. Yeah, or just in the world. Exactly. Right, right. So tell me about friendship. What for you is the essence of friendship? Acceptance for who we are, an ability to really feel like you can be yourself, that sort of authenticity of being able to share with someone and feel that they really get you, they're not judging you, they're just listening.