Ruth Wilson - Be Challenged By What Disgusts You

0:00I remember first watching myself from the back of my head on a screen because I was like, and you're pumped up to this size. Welcome to How to Fail, the podcast that delves underneath the surface of success to discover how our failures really shape us. Before we get into this conversation, please be sure to tap the subscribe button because it really helps other people find us and it means that you will never miss a single episode. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace, the all-in-one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online. Squarespace is here to support entrepreneurship and help turn your passion into a business.

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1:59Wrapping gifts is the only sport you need to stay fit this season. Tis the season to discover great gifts at unexpectedly low prices. Sierra, let's get moving. The actor Ruth Wilson has made a habit of tackling psychologically demanding roles. Since her 2006 breakout in the BBC miniseries Jane Eyre, a role she was cast in straight out of drama school, Wilson has garnered awards and critical acclaim for her portrayals of complex women. Whether it's a mother grieving the loss of her child in the affair, a sociopathic research scientist in Luther, a villain in his dark materials, or whether it's Wilson's stellar stage performances as Hedda Gabler, Anna Christie, or Cordelia in King Lear, she brings a fierce intelligence and inner emotion to each role.

2:48Along the way, she's been awarded two Olivier's, a Golden Globe, and an MBE. She was raised in Shepparton, Surrey, the youngest of four, and the only daughter of Nigel, an investment banker and Mary, who retrained as a probation officer after raising her children. At her all-girls Catholic school, the 11-year-old Wilson was a nascent feminist who often questioned authority, at one time taking in a facts of life book and informing the nuns that their pupils absolutely needed sex education. There were no actors in Wilson's family, or so she thought, until her grandmother died, and it emerged that Wilson's grandfather, Alexander, had been a bigamist and a spy.

3:31Some hitherto unknown relatives emerged. It was a story that she later portrayed on screen in 2018. Now, Wilson is back with Apple TV's Down Cemetery Road, based on novels by Mick Heron, who also wrote Slow Horses. Wilson stars opposite Emma Thompson as an art restorer swept up in a high-stakes crime drama. I think it's important to face things you don't want to see, Wilson says about acting, because only then will you grow. Only then will you live properly. Ruth Wilson, welcome to How to Fail. Thank you for having me. That quote you gave about a specific play that you saw, it was Carol Churchill's play, Here We Go.

4:17I was wondering where that came from, yes, yes. Which you describe as a life-changing experience. yeah it was the most it's one you know you go to plays sometimes and it's when they have a huge effect on you and you think okay this is the this is why theater is important or why it can make such an impression on you and this is a play written by carol churchill it got like one stars across the board i thought it was the most incredible thing i'd ever seen um it was about death really it was about facing death and the end of life and it was three sort of acts and the first act was a group of people at a funeral talking about this person who died and then individually they all stood out and looked out at the audience and said when their time to die was and it was just the most uncomfortable thing to watch people walking out of the theater because it was horrible it was so awkward it's like painful but I was like this is amazing it's making me feel so many things um and I'm watching people walk out because they can't bear it.

5:15So I was like, wow, no, we have to feel this. This is what's going to happen to all of us. Well, I thought it was so interesting, that analysis of the power of art to confront, given that the young Ruth Wilson was confronting her nuns about, you know, teaching sex education. Is that something that drives you, the need to challenge whoever is watching yeah i think so i think there's a sense of um come on think feel um you know only then will you be able to sort of reflect and learn or have empathy or um you know move forward and and i i don't know i think that's what we do as humans it's like our gift as a human is to be able to think and feel.

6:04So do it and be challenged. Be challenged what makes you scared. Be challenged by what disgusts you. Be challenged by those things. Question why it disgusts you or why you're upset by it. And in Down Cemetery Road, you play this character who feels she's being lied to and wants to call that out. And part of what I loved about it was seeing you and Emma Thompson, these two powerhouses, these two female powerhouses. And it struck me how rare that still is. Yeah, it is very rare. And in a show like this as well, which is a sort of crime thriller, it's not two women talking about a man. You know, it's two women on a mission being shot at on boats and planes and automobiles and everything else.

6:54And they're really funny and dry-witted and complicated and petulant and childish. And I mean, it's what we all are as humans. So it was a joy to do that and to work with her and find some sort of fun dynamic between the two of us. It's really rare, really rare in the space we're in and a shame that it's still so rare, actually. I know, now that Tess Staley and Claudia Winkleman are leaving Strictly. What are we going to do? It's you and Emma. Oh my God. The natural heirs. The natural heirs. Hey, bring it on. BBC we're ready Now it's not the first time you've acted in the same project as Emma but I think it's the first time you've seen each other on set because you were in Saving Mr Banks where you played her mother I played her mother strangely I mean yeah I mean I've aged well but no I played her mum I never had a scene with her I was kind of her depressed mother and we met on the red carpet afterwards so this is not you know that was just a we had a photo opportunity together really for that uh so yeah this we actually get to play with each other and it was the script is so good because it's not like there's one obvious lead i mean she's the sort of more bolshy older wisecracking character but my character is quite surprising and reckless um and so i think we kept surprising each other and the writing kept surprising us and who we were playing.

8:21So it was really fun to do because we kept sort of taking the lead from each other or undercutting each other and it leads to a really fun dynamic. Do you think you've learned from watching her work? Yes. She's so free and easy and throws everything away and doesn't seem to care about anything. I was like, wow, she's got so much freedom and lightness. to the way she works. And I was like, that's really, I want to do more of that. So it rubbed off on me during it. And certainly for a piece like this, it's not, you know, it's not like really intense emotional material. So just have fun with it, throw it away.

9:04And she's, there's a lightness of touch with her, which I think is really special. And then she can switch on the emotional depth when she needs it. We'll get onto your relationship with the creative process later, because it pertains to one of your failures. But before we do, I also wanted to ask you about the fact that you and Emma are by any token two phenomenally beautiful women. And you are also women in the Hollywood public eye who have aged naturally. And again, it struck me how rare that is to see and what an act of bravery it is when it shouldn't be. It's really hard because the pressure is on everyone does it everyone does something to their face and it's all available now more than ever it's it's sort of you know you either just you either choose to sort of join your peers and put stuff in your face and make yourself look I don't think it makes you look younger it just makes you look like you've had stuff done like if you look at people who are 60 70 and someone's had work and someone hasn't they don't really look different ages they just look like someone's had work and someone hasn't had work but so it does feel like you have you make a choice and it's sort of I don't know it's difficult in my industry if I wasn't an actor I wouldn't I don't think I'd think twice about the idea of having work done just because you have to look at your face your face is on a poster it's on a lens and you're pumped up to this size your face is made bigger in a cinema screen you know you're like oh you can see yourself aging let's get into your failures because you did this very generous thing you gave me your failures the sort of one sentence failures and then yesterday i got this extraordinary essay that i said beforehand i was like this has done my work for me i thought i'd give a more context a little way of me processing what i was thinking about your first failure is your failure to get into oxford university yeah which for an overthinking perfectionist I imagine was tricky but tell me first of all like why you applied or who was it who told you that you should yes I was thinking about this I was like a sort of superficial failure because it's not something I hold a lot to now and don't think I really did at the time but it was interesting sort of why exactly why I applied and what it meant to me I was I did history at I was at Esher College at this point I'd left the convent I'd gone to Esher College I spent two years there I loved it it was my best years of academia like I was doing classics theatre studies and history I got on really well with the teachers I adored it but I was harbouring a secret desire to act my theatre studies teacher had told me you should give it a go but I never mentioned it to anyone I thought it was a complete pipe dream I didn't believe it would really be possible but I was harboring this secret desire so I thought okay I'll go to university and I'll do acting on the side and I didn't know how to get into acting so I just you know and someone my history teacher said you should apply to Oxford I'm like yeah okay actually I know a lot of actors including Emma who went to Cambridge but a lot of actors who I admire they got into acting by going to Oxbridge so that's a way to get into acting yeah um completely putting the academia side part aside and thinking i could even do that um so i thought yeah okay i'll apply and i did one of the worst interviews uh i should think ever why was it so bad my history teacher told me i done some prep with him and he told me okay if they come up with a subject that we haven't studied just tell them you haven't done that we haven't studied that and i found myself saying that over and over again in the interview and I think it was a way of me not answering the question or if I didn't know the answer I just go to sort of response I found myself saying it over and over again and they're looking more and more disappointed in front of me and then there was another part of the interview you had two interviews over a weekend and the other interview was with this guy he's going quite well and then he asked me so where do you live and I said I live in Shepparton He said, what kind of house do you live in?

13:32And I said, well, it's an old Victorian house. He said, OK, so who do you think lived there when it was first built? And I was like, mind blank. And I go, that's my clown a bit. I just go completely blank. And I said, oh, actually, it is interesting because on the side of the wall of a house, people have scratched in their initials who've lived at this house. And he said, well, oh, right. So who lived there? And of course, I hadn't ever looked into who those initials were. I didn't know who they were at all, showed no curiosity about who had lived in the house. So I think they were like, okay, she's definitely not, you know, this isn't someone we want.

14:11She's got no interest in history whatsoever. And it was kind of, I think, it was a disingenuous reason as to why I wanted to go to Oxford. I didn't care about the academia. I wasn't really interested in studying history. I love history, but wasn't that interested in it. and I was sort of, that was revealed in the interviews really and I wasn't, my dad had gone to Oxford as well so I kind of felt maybe I should follow his footsteps but I wasn't confident enough in saying what I really wanted to do at that point And I'm so interested that you felt you shouldn't be open about your desire to act Why was that do you think?

14:55I think from where I grew up, no one in my family had gone into acting. No one in my family was an artist of any sort of note. We all did sport and we all did normal subjects. We were kind of very conventional. The idea of going into acting seemed completely absurd. And I sort of felt it didn't come from anywhere. It didn't feel like there was a path that I could follow. so I felt a bit silly I thought everyone had those pipe dreams everyone wanted to be famous or sing you know a singer or an actor or and so I just thought maybe this is a sort of silly pipe dream that I have so I had to I was pursuing it really secretly and it was only when I went to I went to university and did study history at Nottingham where the stakes weren't so high in away and there I found a really amazing community of friends who are now very successful in the industry but we all did acting in this little theatre society and that's where I directed for the first time and we produced plays and we took a play to Edinburgh and New York and all sorts and it was where I got to sort of explore my passion in a safe environment and it was where I decided okay, I've really got to give this a go.

16:14And that parallel I drew between you and your grandfather in the introduction is actually a parallel that you've drawn rather than my projecting what I believe to be. But do you, tell me more about that because then did that make sense of your desire to play other parts? Completely. I mean, my grandfather was a fantasist. I mean, he wrote 27 spy novels and he had numerous wives and lots of kids and very odd guy. he was a liar you know and that's I mean actors I don't really think they're liars actually actors they're sort of we live in alternative universes though and so I could see where the capacity of imagination had come from and where that creative imagination had come from and it was that line of the family which was really surprising to me because my dad is quite straight you know when I guess like you said he worked in the banking and in London and gone to Oxford and was quite a sort of conventional life.

17:12So it did make sense to me suddenly that I had this other very imaginative, creative side of the family and his other sons from different families. One had been a jobbing actor his whole life. One had written poetry. So I was like, oh, okay, we do have a creative strand in the family. It's not completely mad that I've gone into this world. And what do you think the overall lesson is of this failure, reflecting back on it? I don't know. I mean, part of me thinks, that's why I think it's a bit of a superficial failure in a way. It's like, I don't, I think it was more about trusting instinct. Like I knew it didn't feel, I didn't feel that Oxford, I would thrive at Oxford.

17:51I knew that. I knew going there, it was like, not really me. I felt flattered by people saying you should give it a go I felt like oh maybe I should carry on do what my dad did maybe this is my way into acting the actual you know I didn't have any real desire to be at Oxford doing history at all so it felt disingenuous I felt like and when I went to Nottingham I felt instantly at ease there so I suppose it's something about instinct maybe it's about instinctive choices and that I I wasn't admitting to really what I wanted or what I felt was true and it was it was revealed to me quite quickly there's an interview yeah by those interviewers yeah okay there's an interesting interplay here between truth telling and lying yeah because you describe your grandfather as a liar and yet had this imaginative yes fantastical bent and then you said I don't think actors are liars and I agree with you I don't think they are I think they're truth tellers and they use performance as a vehicle for telling that truth yes and this failure is all about you understanding the truth of yourself really yes yeah and it was a long journey of like working out being honest with yourself about what you really want and having the confidence to say it and I think that was also for me it took me a long time to gain the confidence um of my my truth and my instinct and I think that whole interview I was lying all around I wasn't lying I was sort of trying to cover and like even the way I reacted he asked me about who do you think lived in the house and I just rather than sort of coming up with some or even saying I don't know actually I'm not sure I was like oh you know there's something on the side I would keep trying to sort of lie my way out of something or bullshit my way out and I think you know we're similar ages yeah and I think also for women of our generation, we're in that interesting spot between first wave feminism.

19:51Yeah, we're caught between. Exactly. And I also experienced that, that sort of desire to please others and to perform to please others, leading me further and further away from my actual self. And then there was a big implosion in my life. And then I was like, oh, right, now I get it. Now I have an opportunity to live authentically. Yes. When do you think that happened for you? Was it this Oxford experience? No. I mean, I think Nottingham made me, I mean, when I was there, I was with a group of great people, like-minded people, and I found my community. I think it was also that. It was like you were surrounded by people that perhaps were more confident in their desires.

20:29And it was similar to your, do you know what I mean? You sort of found people that also were honest about what they wanted to do. And lots of them, we'd done all these plays together and lots of them said, okay I'm going to go to drama school and I was like oh they're gonna yeah I fucking want to go to drama school you know and I think it was that that was the sort of moment of clarity for me and I gave myself two years to get a job I was like okay I if they don't want me I won't I'll do something else and you went straight into Jane Eyre it was my second job yeah and it was it's almost 20 years ago now 20 years next year I just wonder if you'll indulge me because I just want to say that the affair yes particularly the first season yes changed how I thought about storytelling in the most extraordinary way and you know I also write books and it really like helped me with plot and everything yeah it was amazing you were amazing what was it like that first season did you feel you were doing something really special I didn't I don't think we ever knew it was going to be a massive hit or it was going to work you never do quite but I knew it was fun to do and I I loved the challenge of it.

21:39And then, of course, it came out and it, yeah, you sign on to however many seasons. I remember Dominic and I at the Golden Globes, you know, won the Golden Globe and everyone was so shocked because it had just come out. And I remember looking at him and going, four more, five more years. We've got five more years now. This is Dominic West. Dominic West was like, five more years. Shit, are we ready for five more years? But it was amazing. and the cast were amazing. And it was really, like you say, it's such an interesting, obvious way of writing material or putting a story out there that hadn't been done often.

22:15And often that's the best, always a simple approach to something, which it seems obvious is the best way. You're very good at accents. So obviously you nailed an American accent for the affair to the surprise of many people who would then meet you in the street and be like, hang on a second. But you also portrayed Emily Maitlis. and she nailed her voice yeah no i loved playing her she was great fun she's great she's great yeah i mean what i love she just i was like she loves being emily mateless i mean but i was like i love i love playing her for that there was sort of she's fearless and she i mean she does have doubts but not many i was like wow you're amazing and i loved her hair as soon as i put the blonde wig on and put my contact lenses in and put the voice on then i was just emily and have big boots and i I loved playing her.

23:05She lent you the original jacket from the Prince Andrews. She did. And her handbag, which was covered, you know, it's like a really expensive handbag she's had for years. And inside it's all got ink, pen ink on the inside. I was going to put my name in there. Ruth was here, which I did, attempted to do. I'm sort of hesitant to ask you this question because I don't want to conflate the acting with the real life shenanigans. Are you following what's happening with Prince Andrew? Do you have a certain perspective because you had to get into that mode. I mean, I have more interest. I don't know if I've got a certain perspective, but because I've watched that interview, I mean, I've watched that interview hundreds of times.

23:45It's like I've probably watched it more than, well, Gillian Anderson has probably watched it an equal amount to me and Michael Sheen. But it was, yeah, so I sort of have an understanding, an understanding of how the interview came about. and so I do I am more interested I suppose in it whether I have more insight I don't know Emily is really interesting and Emily is so interesting because she's a journalist and you're probably trained in the same way is that you sometimes are trained not to have opinions you know you're trained to sort of be able to take every point of view and so even if I'd ask Emily quite direct questions she would never give me a straight opinion it would be well you know it was always sort of around that answer so it was really fascinating being inside it and it's continuing to reveal I mean there's going to be more that comes out I'm sure that hasn't come out yet and one thing that was really this is where I go art does matter is that we did that piece and Virginia Jafray watched the show and she's mentioned it in her book and she the speech that Emily gives or my character gives in the third episode which is about sort of how women have to keep the victim has to keep telling their story that really resonated with her and she's quoted that speech word for word in her book it was something that she found, she did feel seen or felt validated or understood at least so I feel very proud that She felt that from our show, really.

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26:25The final season begins November 26th, only on Netflix. Ford Blue Cruise hands-free highway driving takes the work out of being behind the wheel, allowing you to relax and reconnect while also staying in control. Enjoy the drive in Blue Cruise-enabled vehicles like the F-150, Explorer, and Mustang Mach-E. Available feature on equipped vehicles. Terms apply. does not replace safe driving. See Ford.com slash Blue Cruise for more details. Your second failure is your failure to complete the London Marathon in 2024 in the way that you want to. Now, but this has actually a very, very emotional resonance to it.

27:13Why were you running the marathon in the first place? So my dad was diagnosed with Alzheimer's probably, well, about five years ago. He ran the very first London Marathon, so 1981 and my brother came up with the idea that we should all run it in honor of him and for the charity alzheimer's research and my sister-in-law had lost her mother to alzheimer's and had run the marathon four times in her honor so like okay yeah we should do this i mean all of us are slightly reluctant the idea of running a marathon i'd never considered ever running a marathon in my life I'd never it never crossed my mind um but we all decided to do it we got places and then um yeah then we it became competitive which is what happens in my family it's quite interesting it was fun but the process of training we're all on Strava keeping up with each other you know being supportive but also keeping tabs on each other you know because you're the only girl and the youngest yeah I guess there's an extra pressure yeah I was like I cannot let the team down I'm not gonna I have to this is always the case I have to keep up with them do as well as them if not better and that's my own shit do you know I mean it's not anything they really put on me but it was definitely a sense it was you know a sense of like competitive nature my nephew was also doing it which was lovely so it was five of us all together and then it sort of came to the day and it was we all were running our separate races I knew that everyone was trying to get a time and I knew that everyone was sort of trying to get under four hours and it became about that it was weirdly in your own drive running it it was great it was sort of amazing seeing everyone around you know all the amazing people running for different charities very moving and I had in my head this idea I'd imagined me finishing like I'd imagined I'm gonna run across the line I'm gonna I'd be triumphant, crying.

29:12You know, it's all going to be really emotional. I had this sort of idea of what it's going to feel like at the end. And of course, five miles before the end, my leg completely packed up. Like my shin and my calf just froze. I couldn't, I couldn't, I could hardly walk in it really. I was limping around.

29:34And I just thought, oh, I'm going to have to walk the rest of it. I can't, I can't drop out. I've got to walk. but and I thought I was going to do it on my own and then um one of my brothers who was behind me he caught up with me and he was like what are you all right I was like no I fucked my leg run on go on save yourself yeah I was like no you go and he's like no I'm gonna walk with you and he stopped and we walked the last four miles or five miles on together and it was really emotional and it was really um at first I was I was very disappointed I was disappointed in myself I was disappointed in uh my body uh I've been I've put myself through quite difficult things like in my work and and my body's not the thing that gives up do you mean it's like that always goes keeps going so I was like oh wow my body can't do this I just assumed I'd be able to do it I assumed I'd get round and I did do it I mean even now I'm talking like I'm um it was a disappointment it's like I did get round it's like 26 miles it's intense um but he stopped and he walked with me and you know slowly in that as we walked the last four miles five miles sort of my expectation of what the outcome was supposed to be sort of gradually disappeared Like I just was like, okay, just you're in the moment now.

31:05And this is what's important. And very emotional. Yeah. Even in the retelling of it, I feel that emotion. Yeah. And there's something about presence in the moment that I imagine is particularly meaningful, given your father's condition. Yes. How is he? He's good. He's like, well, he's good. He's as well as he can be in a way. I mean, my mum is extraordinary. And I think it really helps if you have a partner who takes care of you and makes you feel safe, if you're in that scenario, if you're losing. She's so generous and she's so patient with him. And he is, I mean, he knows who we are. He can't remember what happened yesterday or what's happening tomorrow.

31:57he um he mum needs to take him to the bathroom and um she needs to dress him every morning um he sort of has to be constantly reminded of where he is and what he's doing and he can't really communicate he's lost language he occasionally is really lucid and very funny he'll come up with a joke every now and then and so he's there but he's sort of fading in and out so much for sharing yeah and thank you also for the work that you do for the alzheimer's research yeah um my best friend lost her mother yeah to alzheimer's at the beginning of this year and so i have a little perspective on to what that is like and i think these conversations are so important and it's one of those diseases that needs funding and needs more attention it's it's one of our biggest killers and no one i think because it's associated with old age people dismiss it as just old age you don't have to suffer from alzheimer's there are going to be and there's so much big money being uh plowed well there's not enough we need more money being plowed into research because and there's things on the cusp of discovering like a cure or you know the real factors behind it it's still it's a bit like cancer in that it's very particular to the individual so it manifests very differently for every person and that's why it's so hard to find one cure for it you have to kind of deal with a human who's having the experience but it is a it is um it's cruel it's a cruel disease and it it slowly takes the life away of some from someone and you know i was looking at a photo of my dad the other day and i was like that's him that was him you know he was always he he loved talking he loved having big massive chats about politics history we'd talk for hours you know we'd go we'd be up to two in the morning chatting about what's going on in the world and my dad and mum you know mum was a socialist or she was lefty and dad was a Tory so we'd have these great debates at home always clash of politics and ideas so it's sad seeing I can't have those conversations with him anymore well I wish your father and your mother yeah the best and yeah we're thinking of them and thank you so much for talking about something so important yeah Extra value meals are back.

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35:12Terms apply. Learn more at americanexpress.com slash business dash platinum. This episode is brought to you by McAfee. Swimsuit, passport, phone, with VPN activated. VPN? Then cell phone service is going to be spotty on vacation, so we'll be using public Wi-Fi. Sounds sketchy. Exactly. The networks can leave your personal info, like credit card numbers, exposed to hackers. McAfee's secure VPN lets you browse and bank safely from wherever, whenever. Learn more at McAfee.com slash online protection. Your final failure. It's a little one. It's a small little failure. I looked at Malcolm Gladwell.

35:56I was like, Jesus, his are really intense. I was like, okay, I've got to be a bit more serious on my failures. I'm glad you don't know Malcolm Gladwell's because one of his failures was failure to run. Oh, was it? Well, he started taking joy in the mediocrity of his running rather than being competitive with himself. Yes, yes. Well, your final one is your failure to trust the creative process. Deep dive. Yes, okay. Deep dive. So has that got any better with all your many awards? um no funnily enough okay no no it has it has got better i mean this is just a it's a broad one because i was thinking okay what is it that i do attempt and fail at consistently and it is it is failure every single time no matter how you know well a show goes down or whatever how well a job does and out in the world in the process of it i consistently think it's going to be an absolute failure and think that I'm an absolute failure in it and it's so weird it's like come on and my partner's always like okay Ruth you said this last time and I'm like no but this time this time this time no it's different this time he's like you said that last time so it's sort of some weird uh I don't know it just haven't I haven't sort of managed to trace a new pathway in my brain as to what the reality is and I don't know why I think it's like many reasons why but it manifests in a sort of way of if i'm doing a play in rehearsals i have sort of you know massive crisis of um faith in the material in what i'm doing if it's tv and film and it happens more often than that it's usually once the day is done of filming that i'll go home and on the day the reality of the actual scene and doing it probably fine explored lots of different things but I go home and eat my own head for hours obsessing over what I should have done what I didn't do well enough it's completely pointless and it's exhausting and it's boring for everyone around me and it's it's just it's not reality actually so it's quite weird that I do it and it's um I I'm getting better I am getting better but I is a failure that I want to work on.

38:15It's so interesting though, because as you're talking, I relate to everything you say, albeit not with acting. But with a podcast interview, I will constantly be thinking, God, I phrased that question so badly. And then when I listen back, I'm like, why didn't I ask this? Why did I gavel on? Why didn't I leave silence here? And again, with writing books, I now understand, a bit like your partner was saying, it's part of my process, approximately two thirds of the way through. I will think I'm the worst writer who has ever committed pen to paper. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it's obvious most people have this feeling, right?

38:46Yes, but I wonder if it's actually because you can see all the things that you could be doing, it makes you a better actor in a way. Yeah, just very neurotic. I mean, when I look at everyone, I'm going, I'm not sure she's going home and, you know, breaking down the scene. Have you asked her? I will ask her. I don't think she does. I mean, well, okay, I'll be surprised if she does. I think she has a beer and just has a great time. And there was one time recently, I was like, okay, just stop. Think, don't think that. and suddenly there was an empty blank nothing i was like well i there's those things i could do now i could work out i could read a book i could you know make dinner i could do loads suddenly actually if i took that away there's loads of things i could do but there was a sort of emptiness and i sort of thought oh this is a habit that i've taught myself to do that makes it feel more important than it actually is maybe yeah and also maybe you're scared of the emptiness I'm scared of the emptiness you're filling it exactly I'm filling it with just really useless shit because you know we've done the scene you can't go back to it it's done it's dusted what's the point in worrying about it do you watch back your own work if it's on tv or film I I sometimes have to because I'm sometimes produce stuff and so you're in the edit or you're getting sent edits of it and um i do i'll maybe watch one episode just to see tonally or if it's working i kind of hate it although there is a plan to watch the whole eight episodes of down cemetery road on one day emma's idea i blame her entirely and i'm dreading it i don't sure i'm not sure i'm gonna be able to make it through i have to watch eight hours of myself i mean that's not fun no That's kind of like, oh my God, why did I do that?

40:40Sometimes you're like, oh, that's okay. Oh, that really works. And then other times you're like, that's just, oh my God. And then you're like, I look old. Oh, rude. You look great and you're amazing. Can you imagine watching yourself? I can't. It's horrendous. I struggle with this having to be filmed for social media clips. I just now seek to try and disconnect myself. I'm like, that's just a version of myself. It's not actually how I look. No, exactly. That's all you can do. I remember first watching myself from the back of my head on a screen because I was like, God, I never see the back of myself.

41:12That's how I walk? Oh, God. I had this so weird. I just had this experience yesterday of seeing a film of me walking away and I was like, God, I'm so hunchback. It's like round-shouldered, sort of lump and oaf walking on the screen. It's awful. People know too much. yeah um what is the worst creative experience you've ever had in this context and then what's the best okay so the worst and i'm picking like it was a job that actually and this is this is another proof of why it's completely useless is um is a film i did called the little stranger which is like a film with lenny abramson directed it and um i think it's a particular point in my life to be honest I think I was sort of it was like I was about 37 or something and probably going through some sort of transition but very I was hyper self-conscious for some reason and I was doing we all had I'd like fake teeth in I was doing a playing a posh woman called Caroline Ayers and it's another book the adaptation of a book everyone was doing had like tashes on and it was a little bit and it wasn't comedic it was very naturalistic but there was something I I felt very uncomfortable and self-conscious.

42:25And I felt like Lenny, even though this isn't true, again, it's all in my brain, I felt like he wasn't happy with what I was doing or something. And I was deeply self-conscious through the whole of that film. And I thought it was going to be the end of my career or it was over. And my poor boyfriend was getting it every night. I was like this. And I felt so uncomfortable on set and being looked at. And then the actual final product is one of my better performances. And I was like, okay, I've got no control over this. This means even in discomfort, the camera reads something interesting. What was the best creative experience?

43:05The 24-hour play, which was, again, because I had no time to think anything. I couldn't, the whole setup of that. This was a 24-hour play I did on stage. I did one scene a hundred times with a hundred different men most of which weren't actors and I'd never met them before, never rehearsed the scene with them it was like a 10-15 minute scene every two hours I'd have a break for 15 minutes and got to pee and eat some food but I was on stage doing this repetitive thing it was a kind of piece of performance art really rather than straight theatre but it was the most electric and uh just fulfilling thing i've done in my life because i i couldn't plan anything it was totally up to the gods who walked on and it was about creating again being completely present creating some sort of unique energy with that person opposite you and they're all randoms you know i never met them before and we had to dance we had to kiss we had to like sort of break up and you know um leave each other and whatever it was all very interesting it was fascinating i was so full of love by the end of it because like people are endlessly fascinating and surprising they're never what you expect and you can find connection with anyone that's the most incredible note to end this on i am such a firm believer in the power of connection.