S17, Ep10 Elliot Page on the transcendence of showing up as himself

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1:16Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. Elliot Page is a critically acclaimed actor whose starring role as a pregnant teenager in 2007's Juno, led to an Oscar nomination, two BAFTAs and a Golden Globe at the age of just 20.

2:00He later went on to act in a series of movies and TV shows, including Christopher Nolan's Inception, the X-Men franchise, and the Netflix superhero series, The Umbrella Academy. But although many of you might know him primarily as an actor, Page's recently published memoir proves that he is also a profoundly talented writer. Page Boy, which is already a New York Times number one bestseller, tells the story of his journey to selfhood. In it, he lyrically depicts the struggle to exist in a society determined to ignore, marginalize, and control his queerness. It is a love story of sorts, set against the backdrop of a sexist, homophobic Hollywood, in which the greatest love turns out to be Page's alignment with his truest self.

2:51He publicly came out as trans in December 2020 and later appeared on the cover of Time magazine. Page Boy has been called brutally honest, eloquent and enthralling, and a book about what it means to be human. To read it, I believe, is to understand the fundamental power of being seen as we truly are. In the introductory author's note, Page writes, I've spent much of my life chipping away toward the truth while terrified to cause a collapse. Elliot Page, it's my honor to welcome you to How to Fail. Thank you so much for having me and for your kind words. Thank you so much for this extraordinary book.

3:36You really are a phenomenal writer. And it's always such a joy to discover someone who is talented in one area also has this whole other talent. And I know that you've been an inveterate reader for many years and a recommender of books, but why did you decide to write your own right now? What was the initial spark? Gosh, I mean, there was, I think, a couple of things that led to the initial spark. One was that it felt possible for the first time. And when I say that, I mean that I had the actual space in my brain and the ability to focus and feel comfortable and present enough for something like that to be possible.

4:18Whereas before it didn't feel like it could be a reality. And I feel that's, you know, of course, aligned in a time where there's so many attacks towards trans people, anti-trans rhetoric, constant dehumanization, lies about our lives and who we are, about our health care. And it felt like I should grasp the opportunity as someone who has this platform to share my story and to reclaim my own narrative versus it being told by others or things projected upon me. And hopefully maybe it could allow people to feel comforted or less alone seen and potentially those who aren't necessarily familiar with trans issues who might not know or be close to trans people and think they don't know trans people maybe it could highlight that we're just humans trying to you know all we want to do is exist and thrive you know you write this thing and I want to get the quote exactly right as a trans person and a public one.

5:24The sensation is that I'm always pleading with people to believe me. I thought that that was so powerful. And I wonder what the weight of that feels like. Because not only do you feel the weight of being an activist, I imagine, but you also feel the weight of having to prove your very existence. How heavily does that weigh on you? That certain weight, I feel less and less as time goes on. You know, the more embodied I feel, I feel like that has continues to get better. You know, certain anxieties like continue to get better because I'm still quite early in my transition. And obviously, especially when I first started writing the book, certain aspects of what do other people think I've noticed, thankfully, doesn't seem to affect me as much.

6:15But of course, that does seem to be a perpetual thing you know constantly doubted or gaslit as lots of trans and queer people can relate to of course yes we just deal a lot with people doubting us and our lives and telling us we're not who we really are and of course that can be frustrating or tiring but I notice so many things just continue to get better I'm so glad to hear it you strike me as someone who has for a very long time been guided by a quest for truth. You're a truth teller and a truth seeker, if I've understood you correctly. And it's why I loved that quote that I used in the introduction about chipping away toward this truth.

6:58I wonder how you feel about truth. It's such a huge question, but how important is the truth to you? Gosh, I guess. In three words or less. Yeah. Gosh, I suppose for me, it would be arguably one of the most important things to strive for as we're alive. Already, what even is this? And by this, I mean life and existence. So ideally, I'd want to do everything I can to lean into truth and coming into my own authentic self. And I wish that for everyone, of course. I want to talk to you a bit about page boy and the way that you structure it because it isn't a chronological structuring it is fragmentary and lyrical and I wondered two things one why you decided to write it that way and to how difficult it was.

7:53Yeah, I mean, I knew right away when I started that I wanted the book to be a nonlinear structure. I think, one, I enjoy that in general with books. And for me, trans and queer narratives and becoming are nonlinear, you know, and I wanted to reflect that on the page. getting close to one's truth, pulling back, getting closer and pulling back. And especially with trans narratives, we talk about the sort of before and after all the time. And I don't, you know, see it that way. I think it's so, for me, it's so much about becoming integrated and I hope people sort of feel that this non-linear aim at integration, you know.

8:33Was it difficult? No, it wasn't really. Oddly, the first time something did truly click and I sat down to write was the first chapter in the book, Paula, it's called. And it's very close to what I wrote that very first day. And I think at first, especially after getting the book deal, I was like, oh God, now I have to write a whole book. So I was at the beginning, it was what came up and I'd write, write, write, and then try and branch off of one story and create form around that. Then as I progressed, I started to like, oh, I'm going to choose this period and this friendship, this relationship, this incident, and build around that.

9:10And then later in the process, really worked on sort of moving around the puzzle pieces in regards to laying out all the chapters. As you say so eloquently there, there is no before and after to your experience. And the rest of society sometimes, I imagine, seems fixated on the notion that there is. And this is coming up for me, and I don't know whether it's helpful to offer, but I'll offer it anyway. One of my favorite sculptors is a woman called Barbara Hepworth and she always said that the art to her sculpture was chipping away to reveal the essential truth of the material that she was working with rather than trying to make it into something else and I was just really reminded of that when reading Page Boy because you have known and there's this bit where you write where you used to standing up when you were four.

10:00Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. So you know who you are, but it's about having been able to make yourself visible, the essential truth of yourself to everyone else. There's no question there. I'm just. Yeah. No, but you're like, and even though I did know, I have known writing the book was healing and validating in so many ways because my earliest memories, preschool, basically all revolve around gender and how really knowing who I was, perplexed by how the world was perceiving me and seeing me. And that just persisted and persisted. And growing up, especially where and when I did, there was no examples.

10:41There was no language for this. And one of the questions that did come up as I was writing it was, why did this have to take so long? You know, there's a bit of a grief to that. But I mean, obviously we know why it's society, it's expectations that we all deal with, right? Trans, cis, straight, queer, what have you, We're all dealing with toxic expectations that force us into a tiny little box, you know. But yeah. One of the other things that I learned in Page Boy was about the Halifax explosion of 1916, which I found riveting and I'd never heard about. 17, but that's fine. Sorry. No, no, no. I just wouldn't want someone listening to me like...

11:17I'm so sorry. Yeah, no, don't be sorry. Will you tell us about that? Because that's where you grew up, isn't it? I'm very interested in psychogeography and how where we grow up sort of informs how we see the world. Tell us about it. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. How much time do we have? There's so many details. You almost don't want to get me started on it. But quickly, essentially in December in 1917 in Halifax in the harbour, very, very large harbour, a ship called the Mont Blanc, which was carrying something like 19 times the weight of the Statue of Liberty of like explosives. So it was like this enormous, enormous amount, I think some of the highest recorded ever on a ship, into the Halifax Harbor.

12:01And as a ship was delayed and leaving and a rather disgruntled captain was trying to speed out, essentially this game of chicken began. And as last minute the Mont Blanc tried to turn, they collided and it burned for about 15, 20 minutes. and then it exploded and it was the largest man-made eruption explosion previous to the atomic bomb and it decimated the city. It was a horrific, horrific, tragic event. There's much more to the story. I encourage people to learn more about it and I happened to grow up in the area of the city that was particularly flattened. I think it was around 2 ,000 people died and it really raised the city to the ground.

12:46what do you think that experience was like for you growing up in the neighborhood that was built is it hydro what's it called the hydrostone yes do you think that that affected you and how you saw the world it must have on some level i suppose that degree of sudden tragedy it was just interesting how growing up you were and you just taught it was an accident which isn't really the full truth. You know, it was a horrible consequence of war at the end of the day. It was World War I that this munition ship was going to be going over with a convoy to Europe and led to, yes, immense destruction overnight.

13:25I think half of the city became homeless. Obviously, so many children left without parents. Yeah, a truly horrific event. I appreciate it's a sort of weird question, but I suppose it's because there's this seam running through your work in Page Boy, which is about buried secrets, things left unsaid, hidden truths. And I found it very affecting when you taught me about the Halifax explosion. So thank you for that as well. Less heavy question. Your dog Mo, how important was he during the writing process? He gave fantastic notes. I mean, it was just so lovely to have this companion, obviously. I mean, one of the things I liked about the experience was that I was alone and maybe, I mean, I love the collaborative nature of making film, of making television, but there was something really enjoyable about sitting by myself in my apartment or up in Nova Scotia in a cabin.

14:27And it was lovely to have Mo as a companion, as break, let's go for a walk. You know, it was, yeah. How do you feel when people called you brave? I feel uncomfortable with it. Yeah, I feel just because I'm just existing as myself and also the degree of privilege and resources I have to access all kinds of things. But, you know, particularly the health care that's allowed me to have this life and be myself when I think of the realities for the majority of trans people, just people that are far more brave than me. Before we get onto your failures, one final question. You are someone who, through your work, has visual records of what your life was like when you were growing up.

15:13Do you ever rewatch your old films or how do you feel about Juno now? I mean, I don't rewatch my old films, but never did really. I mean, some things I rewatched when writing the book, things I referenced and scenes I wanted to be able to describe in a specific way, of course. Something like Junot, I don't think it would bother me to watch. I loved playing that character. I loved who she was. I loved that something about her did feel fresh and new and how she presented. and it was one of the best filmmaking experiences I've had. It's more the aftermath of that. I could definitely watch Juno. I don't want to see anything from the time of promoting it and leading up to the Oscars and that whole campaign season and what have you.

16:02I'd rather not see anything from that period. Because people put you under pressure to dress a certain way and present a certain way. Yeah, and to hide who I was, disguise who I was And I was very closeted and very in love. And my girlfriend wasn't coming to events with me like this is straight people. You know, I loved Juno. And actually, so many people I've spoken to about interviewing you today have said how formative it was for them. And I think you did a terrific job. So I'm glad that you feel fondly towards it still. Let's get on to your first failure. So your first failure is, in your words, that you failed by being closeted, disguising myself and hiding my partners.

16:50Can I ask before we dig into it, how do you feel about the language of quote unquote closeting? Because I want to be sensitive and respectful. And there's a sense that when we talk about coming out or being in the closet, that there's something to feel shameful about. And I don't want you to feel that I'm thinking that. Oh, I really appreciate you saying that. That's OK. I mean, that's those are the terms I personally use. And so. OK. Why did you choose this as your first failure? I mean, I think that was a time in my life where I, of course, significantly struggled. And existing in that way was extremely detrimental, you know, to my mental health and to my physical health.

17:37quite frankly. It was just, it was like eroding me, you know, and it really set me on this path that was hard to come back from. And as much as I was being pressured or in many ways, it felt choiceless. Like I wasn't ready to come out for a while. I just wasn't, but I was an adult who was making the decision to do that, to go along with it. And I regret that, you know, and not just for myself and how I felt, but for lying by omission, for not using my privilege and platform to be a visible person, to be present for the community, to be vocal for the community and working with and along a toxic system, essentially.

18:27Are you talking specifically here about the years when you were in public prominence? So the fame years, if you want to put it that way. Because it must be so excruciating to be living your life so seemingly publicly and to know that internally it absolutely doesn't reflect the core truth of who you are. It must just be so debilitating. It was, yes. and also to my relationships and hurtful to my partners and hurtful to the love that should have been able to flourish. I barely even if ever held a partner's hand outside until I was like 27 years old or went on a properly out date. Yeah, I got to a point in periods of my life when I say I could barely function.

19:22I do mean that. I really mean that. I was not okay. I was not okay. Can you tell us about some of the moments, some of the interactions you had in Hollywood and beyond where you were made to feel that you couldn't live your truth? People could be pretty direct about it. And always in the suggestion that it's for protection, right we want you to have the best career you can have and keep your private life private meanwhile heterosexual couples are walking down the red carpet and that seems to be fine you know they're not keeping that private but okay even aside from people that I worked with who were encouraging me to be closeted and encouraging me to present a certain way remember the first time I was just working up the courage to tell like a fellow actor I'd be working with something like, oh, my girlfriend's coming to visit.

20:19Even now I'm like sensing the, like flashing back to like what those moments were like. And that I would have been about 25, I think, or just under 25. And I said it to an actor I was working with and he just went, don't tell people that. Just keep that to yourself. Just, just keep that to yourself. Now I'd be like, excuse me, you know, but you know, you just take that all in it's another layer upon all the other layers that of course began when you were a kid and the shame and that you're left with just becomes another drop in the bucket yes can we talk a bit about shame because you wrote or actually I think it was an interview that you gave about being bullied at school and how coming through that is a process of unlearning and I'd never heard it expressed that way and I so related to it as someone who also was bullied at school for totally different reasons but that process of unlearning can you tell us a bit more about what you meant by that?

21:21I suppose I mean it in the sense that the shame and sense of embarrassment that we carry is like not ours it's theirs it's what they put upon us those who have said certain things acted a certain way and the unlearning is a letting go. It's, well, that's just not mine to carry anymore, I suppose. Did you feel bullied in Hollywood? Yeah. Yeah. From time to time, absolutely. And that internalized shame, what was it, do you think, that you were most scared of? You, Elliot. In regards to coming out or being myself. Yes, and that whole period of your life when people were telling you how you should be.

22:05I mean, the feeling was, oh, I'll never work again. I won't get to do this thing that I love. And I suppose just the feeling of judgment, really the shame itself, it felt too big. It did control my life and controlled my way of thinking. I remember first properly seeing a therapist when I was maybe 23 and her saying, you know, we need to figure out how to have you come out and make it possible for you to come out. And without thought, I just went, no, that is impossible. That is impossible. I will never be able to be out. And I really believed it. I think back now, and I'm just, that's preposterous, that I really believed it.

22:43And it was, yeah, a narrative I took on until I was able to go, wait a second. Like, wait, why am I listening to this, actually? Why am I listening to this? This is my life. But I think, yeah, a lot of it was this thing I love, this what felt like the one thing I knew how to do would be taken away. And then I was so unwell and tired of being closeted and tired of relationships being under such strain and tired of not taking responsibility, especially when it comes to, again, privilege and resources and stepping up, that living my life became far more important than being in movies. Has that fear gone now?

23:29Yeah. Good. Yeah. And has the shame gone? I'm sure there's things lingering around there somewhere, but I'm sitting here in conscious conversation. Yes, it has. I love being queer and trans. Yeah. I love it. I love it for you. Sorry, I'm so emotional. I love it for you. I just think that's so beautiful and so powerful. Tell me why you love acting. Oh, man. In some ways, it's because it's indescribable, I have to say, but I'll do my best. I love the sensation of working with another person or people and connecting and creating this moment together that, pardon the pun, does feel transcendent. And investigating this character that's just on the page and connecting to something deep in them.

24:19Truth, I suppose. I think it is another way of accessing truth. What does truth mean? and finding that character's truth and, you know, emoting and creating an arc of physicality, what have you, from that place. And I find it incredibly magical, a fantastic excuse to feel, you know, and a society that kind of encourages us not to, you know, get to go to work and just feel and emote all over the place. Obviously, it's come and presented certain challenges in my life being an actor. And it's also been a huge gift. You had to shapeshift a lot in your younger life, not only because your physical presentation was not aligned with the truth of who you were, but also because your parents split up and you had that classic thing of living in two homes and different familial relationships.

25:13And you changed schools a lot. Do you think that helped form you as an actor? Maybe potentially. I don't know if I have a good answer for that. But it could do, or I think it did become an excuse for me to feel. I wasn't necessarily sure how to do it or how to express myself in my real life, so to speak. And that's where I think a lot of my emotion went. Mm. Just last point on this failure, which strikes me very much as society's failure rather than your own, although I appreciate the insight that you've shared with us. Do you sometimes find yourself wishing you could go back and do all of those relationships that you felt that you had to hide and all of those acting roles and jobs, again, as you truly are?

26:07I do sometimes. I can't help but have that sensation in moments or a sense of grief on some level, wishing I could relive certain moments again. But at the end of the day, I don't actually think that's how I look at life. And I know that it just has been my journey. And here's where I find myself. And it is just the road that it's been. And we all go on very winding roads with ups and downs. And I certainly wish I didn't have to live through the degree of pain I lived through in moments. And I do feel like I lost a fair amount of time. Do you believe that we are sent lives to live for some reason bigger than us?

26:50No, I kind of like, like, sure, it could be. I don't not believe it. I just have no idea what any of this is, you know, so, but you never know. That's how I feel about life. I'm like, I don't, you know, you never know. Your guess is as good as mine. Yeah, exactly. It's like before we started recording, when we were talking about our pets and Elliot said, I'm not, not a cat. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

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29:02Your second failure is failure at friendships during periods of isolation. Can you tell me what you mean by that? I mean it in the periods of my life where I did struggle the most well my move often was getting in a relationship I did that I didn't really know how to exist alone so I not that I didn't feel love and care but really much cling to someone and get in often codependent relationships where that was my focus and I would sort of disappear and not show up for people and the way that I should have or not be responsive and to those who were very much there for me and let long stretches of time go without being in touch with certain people and not being there for them in difficult moments, maybe not even knowing about the difficult moment because I was so absent.

29:58That's something that I feel was definitely a failure. And I imagine you have spoken to all of these friends about this now because many of them are in page boy what have those conversations been like i'm lucky that everyone is quite compassionate and and understanding and forgiving of those moments for sure and if anything i think not that they weren't hurt or and rightfully so i think also worried at a certain point people lose patience i don't blame them for that at all, of course. So have you lost friendships? No, but I'd say in moments I've had to like rebuild them and prove that I can show up and be more present.