S17, Ep2 Jay Shetty on failing to fit in, learning to love and how to survive heartbreak

27:53Whatever you want, I'll be it. Well, most people, A, can't live up to that. And B, if we want someone to become whatever we want, then do we really love them? Or do we love an idea? The second ones that I really have a struggle with is she's on the Ferris wheel, like the London Eye, I guess, but the old school ones. and he's hanging off of it, literally like by his arms. And he says, if you don't go on a date with me, I'll let go. And it's like, can you imagine someone threatening to take their own life? Like that's a really like quite a toxic, unhealthy idea to put someone under that pressure.

28:25She goes, yes, yes, I will. Just don't let go. And it's like, that's so uncomfortable for her too. She's been put in that. And I think so many movies over time have built this idea of the damsel in distress and the savior and the knight in shining armor. the woman has to wait for her prince that whole idea naturally has made so many people think one day my prince will come and save me even if you don't think about in those words and I want you to be very careful I'm not I'm not saying you sit there and wait for a prince but there's a part of you that believes that someone will come and save you and if you have to be saved that means you're the one who is saved which means you're broken which means you need to be fixed and so it perpetuates all these ideas of I'm broken, I'm unlovable until I'm loved, I'm unlikable until I'm liked, I'm not valuable until I'm valued.

29:11You do talk a lot about unlearning, which I think is such a powerful word, because we do, all of us, have that task of unlearning what society has conditioned us to believe, what our families of origin might have conditioned us to believe, and working out who we are and what we are for ourselves. And I see failure very much as part of that that actually what is failure failure is when life doesn't go according to plan whose plan is it is it actually yours yes yes and I wonder I'm going to ask you about your failures now but just broadly speaking how do you feel about the concept of failure can I rewind a little because I wanted to comment on what you just said because it sparked a thought for me something really interesting that I came across so when we think about these milestones that society places i.e studying hard, getting a good degree, getting a good job, getting married, having kids.

30:05Often we go through those without even questioning whether that choice is something we actually want. So it's like, oh yeah, of course you have to get married. Of course you have to have kids. That's what happens after marriage. Of course, of course, of course, of course. And I think often people ask or feel I'm running out of time. Oh my gosh, I'm so late to getting married. Oh my gosh, I'm so late to having kids. And especially women, of course, have that pressure because of their body clock, et cetera. So that pressure is even felt more by women. And when I look at that strongly and deeply, I often encourage people, stop asking the question, is this the right time?

30:38Because timelines are based on society's definition, mostly. And instead ask, do I understand how this decision will change my life? And the second question is, do I like how it will change my life. So if you're thinking about getting married, it's not about whether you should get married or not. It's not about whether it's the right time or not. It's, do I understand how getting married to this person is going to change my life? Do I like how that will change my life? That's when you know. And the problem is we're thinking, well, do I need to get married? It's the wrong question. So anyway, I just wanted to interject there and add that.

31:13Yeah. I just wanted to help give people a practical tool to use for decision making. How do I feel about failure?

31:23I've gone silent because I want to give a very thoughtful, reflected answer because I don't think there's anyone who could truly say they enjoy failure or they like failure. I think that would be a very bold statement with some fiction attached to it. But I would say that I've just learned that it is unavoidable. So I'm no longer surprised by it. And I'd say that if it happens to me, I no longer see it as a sign of my inadequacy. I see it as an opportunity to grow, an opportunity to pivot, or potentially a chance to say, maybe this isn't my path. And so I no longer see it as a reflection of my worth, my self-esteem.

32:14But I also know it's always going to happen no matter how hard I try or no matter how perfectly I execute something. It's always a possibility. And I think we live in a world where we think, well, it's not even a possibility or we can avoid it. And now I've learned. And I remember studying. And this is something I wish they taught in school. And I really hope that we find a way to teach it more in school. We learn history of a country or a nation, but we don't deeply study the history of human beings, of actual people. And I got really lucky because I got so into autobiographies and biographies when I was in my teens.

32:54So I'd read Malcolm X, Martin Luther King, all the way through to David Beckham and Dwayne The Rock Johnson by the time I was around 18 years old. and I love the spectrum of those individuals because they've all inspired me in different ways and you can learn so much from anyone's story and then many years later I read Steve Jobs's biography by Walter Isaacson who I've had the pleasure of interviewing Walter Isaacson and when I saw Steve Jobs's life and to think that he was kicked out of his own company only to go and build Pixar in the meantime to then go back to that same company to lead it again to further glory.

33:30When I look at the people I look up to and I'm inspired by, they've all constantly failed and faced rejection. And that's what convinces me that if I'm failing, it's absolutely normal. But if you never studied those lives and you never studied those stories, all you ever see is, oh yeah, Steve Jobs was really smart. He was really successful. He was worth like a hundred million dollars by the time he was 30 or whatever it is. But it's like, that's really not the story. And so what you're doing with your podcast is really beautiful and wonderful because, and I know we are going to talk about failures, as you said, I think that's a really healthy way to think about people's stories.

34:06I think we look at what people did right. Yes. But we don't look at where things went wrong. Exactly. We look at their CVs.

34:18Have you got an idea for a business in your head, but never felt like it's quite the right time to launch into it? Perhaps it's a design, craft or just this brilliant idea you've always wanted to develop but haven't yet gone for it. Well, January is the perfect time to grab the bull by the horns and finally launch and be your own boss. And you're not on your own. Shopify is here to help. Millions of entrepreneurs have already made this leap from household names to first time business owners just getting started. and massive brands like Heinz, Mattel and even Hayley Bieber's brand Rode all use Shopify.

34:55If Hayley Bieber's doing it, I want it too. With Shopify's built-in AI tools, marketing and beautiful templates, you can reach customers wherever they scroll. In 2026, stop waiting and start selling with Shopify. Sign up for your£1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.co.uk slash fail. Go to shopify.co.uk slash fail. Hear your first This New Year with Shopify by your side. This week on Lipstick on the Rim, we sat down with the one and only Rachel Zoe and wow, this episode is a ride. We talked about everything. Motherhood, divorce, finding herself again, joining Real Housewives literally overnight.

35:41And then she said this. Can I tell you a true story? In COVID, in the darkness of COVID, I had a cat eye every single day where nobody saw me, not one soul. And when I had COVID, not even my ex-husband saw me or my children. And you know what I did? I went in to my bathroom. I did a black liquid liner, put on lashes, black liner in the waterline, a full lip, did my hair and sat in my bed. And that is what I did. And I looked at myself and I said, you are not a well person. I said, are you fucking okay? You have 104 fever. You are like, you are like contagion right now. If you love fashion, beauty or Bravo, this Rachel Zoe episode is a must.

36:37It's out now.

36:43Your first failure is about when you were seven or eight years old. Tell us what happened. Yeah. So this failure is probably, and I really tried to think what was the earliest failure I had because I think our failures as children often affect us much worse and we often obviously at that age do not have the ability to process and say this is part of my path like obviously I did not have that perspective so yeah I was around seven or eight years old in primary school in London and we used to have something my school did that was beautiful is we would celebrate every culture and so there would always be a celebration of everyone's religious holidays and all of this kind of stuff in primary school, which I really appreciated.

37:25I think it was a great education in that sense. So this one was an assembly where I was going to have to sing something in my mother tongue. And I was going to have to not only read, but sing in a language that not many people in my school recognized. And I was dressed in traditional Indian clothing. Now I was overweight as a kid and the clothes didn't quite fit right. I didn't necessarily look good in them. But my mother was hoping that I was representing my culture and it would be a really proud moment. And I went out onto the stage at school. There were around, I don't know, 400 people in the assembly hall.

38:07And everyone pretty much started laughing or giggling or from the moment I walked out because I just didn't look like I fit in that day. And I looked different to how I usually looked. I then started to sing. I've never had a good singing voice. I don't sing till this day. I won't even do karaoke. I have a terrible voice. I then start to sing and everyone just is in stitches, like completely laughing because not only am I singing, I'm singing in language they don't recognize. All the kids start laughing. Even some of the teachers were laughing. And then I forget the words because now I'm distracted by everyone else's laugh and, you know, pointing and whatever else they're doing, that I look down at my piece of paper that I'm holding to try and remember the lines.

38:50And I can no longer read the lines because my tears have smudged the words. And so now I've forgotten the words and I can't read them. And I know I'm crying. And now everyone's laughing even more because I'm crying. And so my teacher now walks on stage to comfort me. She puts her arm around me and walks me off stage. And now everyone's laughing even more because I've had to be comforted off stage. This was my first ever experience of public performance or public speaking. I felt like such a failure that day because for the rest of the day, people were pointing, laughing. I felt like I'd let my mom down because I hadn't represented my culture properly.

39:26I felt like I'd let my teachers down because they trusted me to go on stage. I felt like I'd let my friends down because obviously I was the laughingstock of the school. I'd forgotten the words and I felt like a failure that day because in all sense of the word it was a failure Jay I can't I actually I find stories like that so heartbreaking the powerlessness of being a child and wanting to make your parents proud and your culture proud the fact that you don't do karaoke to this day is that because is that because of this no no no I'm just I've done karaoke. I would never do a solo karaoke. Let's say that.

40:04I'm being honest in the sense that I've never felt I've had a good singing voice. I definitely don't have a good singing voice. I'm very okay with that. I have no trauma attached to having a good singing voice. Others I'd be a singer. No, I think more so it was at that time, this feeling of just, I don't know if I ever want to go back on stage ever again. You know, that kind of feeling of, I don't think I'll ever, ever step back in front of a group of people again. And usually when I tell that story, not between me and you but if I share it on stage usually people are laughing in the audience too and so it's really nice to have your compassionate empathy for a change it was my my inner child definitely needed that yeah was there an element of not fitting in that you were fearful of at that time definitely I think that I was one of the few Indian people in my primary school and so people already didn't know Indian people I was already bullied for having smelly food sometimes in school or things like that because yeah and so you're 35 i'm 35 now yeah i'm 35 right now so there was that there was not yeah not being open to obviously hindu dress and indian clothing and and then of course me being overweight on top of all of that it didn't so there was you know i can understand it too i think it's really interesting you know kids are fascinating because they're adorable and beautiful and at the same time so many of us do things as kids that we would never do as adults and so it's always interesting but i have a lot of empathy and compassion even just for all the kids in the room because it was just new to them.

41:24What did they know? They weren't educated in it. They didn't understand. As kids, you never get told to encourage others or support others. You may say, be friends with that person. But I don't think we teach our kids to be encouraging and supportive and accepting. I don't think you hear about those words as a kid. At least I didn't even. Even though my parents loved me, I don't think I heard those words and said, oh, when you see another kid do something difficult, encourage them. I don't think I was ever told that by anyone, by my teachers either. So I also have a lot of compassion and empathy for the fact that you have to train these ideas.

41:54We have to teach people these things. They're not, I think we assume that everyone should just be nice to each other, but why would they if they've never heard that? I'm not saying that this incident in and of itself had this effect, but do you think you ended up feeling unlovable at a time in your life? I think that there's another experience that happened a few years after that made me feel not unlovable. I've never felt unlovable because my mom's love has pierced through every pressure layer or whatever else exists. I think my mom has loved me so deeply that I feel so safe in a deep sense that I don't think I've ever taught myself to be unlovable.

42:38But I have taught myself to be unlikable or unwanted or unattractive. And I think those are very different things. And I think we often mesh them all into one, but they're not. and so I remember at 10 11 years old end of primary school all of the boys in school had their first crush around that age and we all had the same first crush at school there was this one girl at school that everyone had a crush on and no one told her because we were all scared we we didn't want her to know you know 10 years old what do you know and I walked in late to school one day I think I had a doctor's appointment I was running late or something like that and I walked in and everyone was again pointing and laughing at me and I was like oh gosh what's going on and then one of my friends sent me a note and I opened up the note and it said she knows I was like she knows what and then I realized that everyone in the school the girls and the boys have all told this girl that I'm into her and that I'm the only person in the class that has a crush on her and then for the rest of the day in the playground all these girls stood behind the goal I was only a goalkeeper I was only allowed to be a goalkeeper because I wasn't very athletic growing up and all the girls stood behind the goal and they kept shouting out she's out of your league I can't believe you thought you could be with her you're so fat you know all these words and I think that was more that feeling of I'm unlikable or I'm unattractive or I'm not attractive to the opposite sex etc and all of that and I think when in my teens when I became more athletic and I played sport and I felt like I became more cool in my teens I think that's where I really sought validation from the opposite sex, where I really wanted the women I dated to really believe that I was a good guy and I was amazing.

44:16And I think my teens, I spent a lot of time trying to understand, I wanted to be liked and validated. I didn't even want to be loved. And I think a lot of us accept the currency of validation and attention as love. We'll take attention and validation and we'll even believe that it's love, but it isn't. Attention and validation isn't love. It's a form of liking and attraction, love is far more deeper. Love is full of care. It's full of character. It's full of commitment. It's full of support. And so I think I, in my teens, was looking more for attention and validation than I was for love, even though it was under the guise of love.

44:56How do you see fame fitting in with what you've just said there? Because I think the reason that many people seek fame and then the reason why it's harmful for them is because they are yearning that validation and mistaking it for love and actually it's pretty hollow I understand but you are globally famous you have celebrity best friends you are highly successful extremely handsome I suppose what I'm asking is how do you protect yourself against being drawn in by that So I think I got really fortunate because the monk experience is a masterclass in detachment. And I'm not saying that I have complete detachment or that I am immune to any of the things you just mentioned.

45:45But I believe I have a masterclass training in how to deal with it. So it's not credit to me or who I am. It's credit to this very special experience I had. And so what was really interesting is when I went to the monastery, initially I sought the validation of the monks. Yes. Because we're always seeking validation, right? We start by seeking validation of our parents, then our teachers, then people we're attracted to. We literally keep just projecting our desire for validation onto different people. So I even went and projected on the monks. The interesting thing was the monks were the first people not to validate it back or to reject it, right?

46:20So when you are attracted to someone and you want them to validate you, they either validate you or they reject you. The monks don't validate you and they don't reject you. They train you on how to deal with that. They teach you in how to validate yourself. And so during my time as a monk, I started to learn that the deepest form of validation was validating myself in becoming the person who I wanted to be. If I was becoming the person I wanted to be, that was the best validation. And the only person who could tell me that was me. And so I really got to a place during my time in the monastery where I was very comfortable with who I'd become I was very honest about my values.

46:55I was okay with those I was accepting of those and I didn't need someone else to agree or disagree to make me feel better or worse about them Not that I finished it or mastered it. I'm saying It felt real that idea felt tangible to me and I actually remember Around that time I organized a charity event when I left And I remember two very distinct experiences where before my time in the monastery, if I was leading a project and people were criticizing me, I took that to heart. And I remember after the monastery, when I organized this event, I got a lot of people congratulating me. And it was really interesting because the same people that criticized me were the same people that were congratulating me.

47:39And I remember having a very deep, profound moment in myself that day and saying to myself, I can't let either dictate the course of my life because people will change their mind at the drop of a hat. And I can't let criticism or celebration dictate my values or the course of my life. Again, this is something that's tested every day. It's not something that I've made peace with and I'm done and I've mastered it. It's something I'm constantly doing. So I'd say that now, because I've been doing my purpose for so many years, like I feel like I've been living the same purpose without success. I live doing what I do today for 10 years before it ever became noticed.

48:17It's been noticed in the last six to seven years, but I've been doing it for 10 years before that. So this has been like a 17 year journey. doing something you love for 10 years and not being noticed for it by more than 10 20 maybe 50 people is a beautiful training ground because you do it for the love of it and so today I still do it for the love of it because that's all I've ever known I've done it for so long when I wasn't successful and then at the same time when you get tempted by fame and you get tempted by pride and ego which comes naturally to any one of us who's in a human body and has a human mind it's really beautiful to be married and be humbled by your wife in in very beautiful ways not in judgmental or critical ways but out of love and I feel that my wife has been an incredibly grounding force because I think as I became more externally successful I metaphorically held up my achievements to my wife metaphorically not not physically and I said love me for this Look what I just achieved.

49:17Love me for this. Look how cool I am. Look how amazing I am. Love me for this. Look at my bestseller list. Love me for this. Look how many views I got. Love me for this. Look at how well my podcast is doing. Love me for this. And every time I asked for that from my wife, she didn't love me more for that or less for that. She's only ever loved me for who I am. And I think that if my wife had loved me for what I achieved, I think I would have started loving myself for my achievements. but because my wife loves me for who I am I think I'm constantly reminded to love myself for who I am because that's what she values and that reminds me of what to value in myself and that's the beauty of a good relationship where what someone values in you can actually be a beautiful thing I also spend a lot of time sorry I know it's a long answer but there's just so much yeah I also spend a lot of time meditating on irrelevance and insignificance and I recognize the inevitability of everyone's irrelevance and insignificance at some point in their life.

50:15There is no one in the world who has held the same level of significance for their entire life and when they finally die and leave the planet. So why would I believe that that would be any different for me? There will be a day when I will be absolutely irrelevant and insignificant and I have made peace with that now. If I can make peace with that now, then I'll make peace with it then. But if there's a part of me that believes that I have to be significant forever or relevant forever, then I'm going to feel a lot of pain when that day comes. And my monk training is to detach myself before the day comes, not to wait for the moment when it inevitably will come and then deal with it then.

50:51We'd often talk about how, you know, living as a monk, and this is a very popular Zen teaching. It's not my words, but life is not about learning to live. It's learning how to die because you're preparing for the inevitable. And so I take that to be, well, sure, death is inevitable but there's lots of other things that are inevitable and preparing for those early on mentally and emotionally sets you up for success so I'm making peace with that now the friends that I have are genuine friends I don't spend time with them because they're famous or even if that's the context we met in I have some really beautiful relationships with people in the same way as I would count my best friends from London that I've been my friends for the my whole life who are the people I still speak to the most your videographer my videographer I've known my videographer since I was 14 so 20 years nearly he's been my videographer for seven years whenever I'm in London but I think it's a daily practice I don't think it's something you achieve I think I have to think about these things every day and I have to constantly detach and disconnect myself because it's so easy to get swept up and so I'm very vigilant of that it's something I'm very cautious of and I think the day I stop becoming cautious will be the day that I lose it I really appreciate your honesty.

52:01Thank you. Let's get onto your second failure, which is that when you left the monastery, you reapplied for jobs in consulting and banking. Yes. And what happened? So leaving the monastery felt like a failure because since I was 18 years old, that became my dream. And I fought so hard to get there. I had to first get through being 18 to 21 without thinking about settling down or moving into a job. I had to turn down a corporate job offer, had to break up with girlfriends at the time. I had to leave my friends and family behind. So many of my extended family said to me, you're brainwashed. You're wasting your parents' education.

52:40You're letting your parents down. You're never going to get married again. You're never going to get a job again. Like this is what I heard before I became a monk. And it's really interesting to me today because so many people say to me, they're like, Jay, you have such a cool story. And maybe you did it for the story. I even get some of that criticism sometimes where it's like, oh, Jay, like, you know did you just become a monk so that one day you could do all this and I'm just like I'm like I don't think you understand how uncool it was for me to become a monk it's something hopefully that I've made more culturally interesting but at the time it's like everyone in my life looked to me as I was weird like why would you do that everyone's going to work for a company and they're in a relationship they're thinking about having fun and you're thinking about becoming a monk and so I left with a lot of negativity surrounding the decision but I felt really confident in it.

53:23And then when I came back, I came back to that noise. So everyone's like, I told you so. I knew you wouldn't make it. Look, no one's going to give you a job now. You're never going to get married again. Look at all your friends. They're promoted. Did you know so-and-so just got promoted? Did you know so-and-so just moved into a new flat? Did you know that so-and-so is about to get engaged? Did you know so-and-so is making this much money now? You're 26 years old without a job and 18 ,000 pounds in debt. It was a really depressive moment. Depressive because I'd felt like I failed at being a monk, which was my dream, which really felt like I'd failed at marriage because I felt like I got married to being a monk and it felt like a divorce.

54:01Like it really felt like a breakup. And it was the lowest point of my life because I felt that was it. I felt like I'd made it. And I felt like I'd found something only for me to realize that wasn't my path. And that's really hard. Like to think something's your path and then realize it's not, that's so challenging. And I know a lot of people who tried to become athletes and then they had an injury and then they couldn't pursue it. That stuff really messes with your mind. And then when I came back, I'm coming back to all this stress and pressure and these, and they're right because I'm applying to 40 companies.

54:31I'm writing individual CVs, resumes, cover letters. I'm a first class honors degree, straight A student. I have nothing lacking on my resume apart from I've been a monk for three years and no one will even give me an interview in London. Like I won't even get through. I'll just get the automatic response that says your application is not going further. So now everything everyone's saying is true. Three years ago or four years ago when I became a monk, it wasn't true. Now it's true. Now it's real. And that feels like a massive failure because now I'm going, not only did I fail at becoming a monk, I now can't even reintegrate into society.

55:06And now I'm behind. This idea of I've fallen behind and I've got debts to pay. My parents are not well off. My parents are being wonderful in supporting me. Let me move in again. But now I feel like a failure in my parents' eyes, even though they didn't make me feel that way. I felt like a failure in my extended family's eyes, who definitely had that rhetoric. I felt like a failure in my friend's eyes because I hadn't followed through and now they were ahead. And I felt like a failure in my career because I couldn't get a job. And so that was definitely one of the lowest moments in my life. Not the lowest, it's the one before the lowest.

55:42So, yeah. What's the lowest? The lowest was, I have this really big high in 2016 and 2017 when my videos first get noticed. I moved to New York because Ariana Huffington sees my content and I move over there and she wants me to come there and work as HuffPost. The day I get there, she leaves to start a new company called Thrives. And she's amazing. I love Ariana. I'm still very good friends with her. But it took so long to get my visa that it never quite worked. So I wasn't at HuffPost for very long. And I ended up being in the US in a new city, four months away from being broke and 30 days left on my visa.

56:20Otherwise, I'd have to move back to London. And that's the most stress and pressure I've ever felt. I don't count that as a failure because there wasn't really a failure. There was just a situation, hence why I didn't include it. But it was just a really stressful position to be in where I just got married. We're in a new city. I've got four months away to pay for rent and groceries and then I'm out of money and I have 30 days to renew my visa which I can't afford and I don't know how to get a lawyer and I don't understand the process and so that was the most stress and pressure I ever felt more than even coming back from being a monk and it was after that so it felt even harder but yeah so just rewinding a little bit you got rejected from over 40 companies is that right yeah before you even got an interview before I got an interview yeah Yeah, that's right.

57:06So all the normal, all the financial companies, consulting companies, like just any professional services company in London that I was applying to jobs for that were not out of my education, but because of my age. Yeah, we're saying no. Finally, you do get a job at Accenture. So grateful. We'll never be more grateful. When I got that call back to the, when I got the call for the first interview, I was like, I'm going to be the best interviewee of all time. And then when I got called back, because it's like a three or four stage interview, it's not like a one and done. Got through to the first part.

57:36When I got through the second part, I was like, OK, this could be real. Got through to the third part and I think, yeah, three or four, something like that. Yes. And while you were there, you started making these videos which were helping employees with their mental health. Is that right? So I did make videos. But, you know, when you join a new company, at least I loved how Accenture did it. They had a great onboarding practice and, you know, really, really good culture in how they set us up for success. one of the questions was what's an interesting fact about yourself my interesting fact was I used to be a monk and I can teach meditation and so my colleagues would come up to me and be like that's weird or that's really interesting like people have different views and so I started teaching meditation and mindfulness classes at Accenture in my lunch breaks after work at a client office and literally two people would turn up or three people would turn up and I loved it because I was getting to do what I loved and there were people who wanted to learn and I started to do this.

58:28And I set up meditation Mondays and people at the company would meditate at the start of a meeting. And one of the managing directors took a real liking to that work that I was doing because they were really prioritizing mental health. This is end of 2013 in London, really prioritizing mental health at the company, which was incredible to see. And she said to me, she said, Jay, I'd love for you to teach a session like this to your colleagues at the summer event, the annual event. And there'll be a thousand of your colleagues there. You'll be speaking on stage at Twickenham Rugby Stadium. And would you want to do this?

59:01And I was just like, this is unbelievable. Like what an amazing opportunity. Her name's Jilly Bryant, grateful to her till this day for giving me that opportunity. And so I went there that day and gave this presentation and I was so stressed out because I was in between the CEO of the company and Will Greenwood, who won the Rugby World Cup. And he was invited as a guest speaker. I'm just an employee at this point. And you have the memories of the Diwali performance. Totally. And I've done a lot of speaking in between, but not to that size. I've done a ton of talks and presentations in between, but not to that scale.

59:33But I'm sitting there the whole time going, God, I'm not Will Greenwood. I'm not Olly Benzakry, who was our CEO at the time. I was like, I'm not those people. Like, what do I do? What do I do? What do I do? And then I said to myself, I remember, I just got to be myself. Like, you know, I've just got to be myself authentically and everything will be OK. And then after that presentation, Jilly came up to me and she said, I've never seen a group of millennials be that present with anyone else on stage or be that silent. It was pin drop. And she was like, you couldn't hear a thing. And that day I started, from that day, I started teaching meditation across the whole company.

1:00:06And so that was like a real moment of just. Incredible. Yeah. Relief. I also want to ask you, I want to take you back to New York and those four months where you're four months from going broke. and what happened next? Because it feels to me that your purpose was calling to you. It was almost dragging you through. Yeah. It was just this fateful light that was guiding you. Yes, yeah. It felt like another thing that had gone wrong, but it actually was an opening. I think if that moment never came, maybe I would have just continued making videos on the side or it would have been a nice hobby. And by the way, I would have been really happy with that because at that time I didn't know what was possible.

1:00:42So I would have happily had a hobby of giving talks on the evenings and making videos on the weekends. I wouldn't have any issue with that. One of my mentors, Thomas Power, who lives in London, who was part of training us at Accenture on social media. He doesn't work at Accenture, but Accenture brought him in. And he often would say to me, he said, Jay, you'll realize your potential when you're in pain. He said, that's when you'll realize your potential. He said, you will never realize your potential when things are going well. And I used to always be like, I'm proactive. Like when you're proactive, you always know your potential.

1:01:14and those four months of being broke, like being away from being broke and having nothing and being married newly, that made me realize how much potential I had because I'd never been under that much pain. And so I got the most disciplined I'd ever got. I got the most focused I'd ever got. I sent probably like a thousand emails in that first week letting people know what I could do for them. I would edit videos if they needed it. I could make training videos for their company if they needed it. I was doing anything just to survive, just to live. But it brought this energy out in me that I didn't even know I had, which was this relentless, resilient consistency and pursuit of excellence that until that point was not really realized.

1:01:54And now I live off that energy. Like I think it's been the same energy that's fueled so many of the last few years, which is really beautiful. It's almost like you discover a gear you didn't know you had. And now I know which gear I can get to. And that's a really special, special thing that I got from that experience. Your final failure goes back to when you were 18 and you were leading a team and someone gave you some advice. Oh, gosh, yeah. I was leading a community youth group that organized retreats and events. And we'd taken a group of students to Italy. And I was new to this and I was new to management and new to leadership.

1:02:34But I was getting a lot of criticism from the senior leaders in the youth group. It wasn't the most encouraging atmosphere. And a lot of people were saying to me like, oh, you're not a good manager. You're not a good leader. I'm 18 years old. I have no idea what management and leadership even mean. And I'm getting a lot of criticism. And to me, they're the ones who did this before. So they must know. Again, this idea that they're an authority. They must know more than me. So I'm listening very carefully. And one of them said to me, they said, you know, Jay, you're not very assertive. You're like not a very assertive person.

1:03:05That's why you'll never be a good manager. You'll never be a good leader. And really what they were saying is, Jay, you're not tough enough. And then they went on to say, you're not tough enough. You're not like, you don't know how to delegate and tell people what to do. And so people never listen to you. And I've never been that way because I think I've always been loved by my mom in such a sweet, compassionate, caring way that I consider my leadership style today to be that way. I can be assertive for sure. I've had to learn to be assertive. But I think at that time, I didn't know the balance between affectionate and assertive.

1:03:36And I think I was very out of character with someone, for someone who would have thought that Jay's quite a gentle person. He's, you know, even if he's saying something that's hard to swallow, it will be very thoughtfully shared. And I think I was very out of character with one of my team members. And not only did I hurt him so much that he didn't talk to me for the rest of the retreat. he never has till this day has never talked to me ever again I called him I left messages I asked people to talk to him I tried anything possible to get through to him after we came back from the retreat realizing I'd made a horrible mistake and he never got back to me never replied never messaged back and it was a really tough experience because I it was really upsetting because that wasn't me and and i knew that it probably hurt him more because it wasn't me it was so out of character and it was just you know i would have said to him something along the lines of like oh you've you've been really unorganized you've been you haven't been thinking about it we need your help you're not working hard enough like it was something to those that extent it wasn't i didn't swear at him or i wasn't rude it would you know it was it was along the lines of just being quite forceful when that wasn't who i was and that's always been a reminder to me of don't act out of character for anyone and don't just trust someone knows better than you especially when it comes to people lead with your heart lead with what you know best and yeah that failure is a tough one because it's hard when you can't turn it around I think when most people tell their failure stories it's conveniently stuff that also works out yes it can be a humble brag it can be a humble brag but that one's like there's no brag there's no brag because I don't now have a relationship with him it's not like oh no we're best friends and we just went out for drinks yesterday it's like I still hasn't talked to me I've obviously stopped pursuing an apology after probably maybe six months I think it was six months of time that I let go by where I was really pursuing him and trying to get through to him through different people and then I just said okay you know what I was wrong I'll take it as a moment of you know there's that famous quote that says that the best apology is changed behavior I don't know who said it but it's a beautiful thought and I really like that statement and I thought well that's the only way I can forgive myself and that's the only way that I can improve for the future is change behavior and my main change behavior is don't listen to anyone else just because you think they know a bit more than you and do something out of character and act in alignment with your soul values yes yeah yeah exactly like even till this day I just I wouldn't talk to anyone like that it's just not how I've been raised it's not how I've been trained by my mom I've not you know that's not who I am and I don't want to act out of alignment again I'd love that person to be listening to this podcast I mean that would be incredible and that would be a beautiful story but I've also just let go of the idea that that even has to happen for closure and I think I'd like people to think of breakups that way I'd like people to think of endings that way that not all endings have to have a fairy tale and not all endings have to have a magic moment some of them just teach us something special for the future and benefit other people and you can't let one person's experience define the rest of your life you just can't and that doesn't mean I don't feel sorry it doesn't mean I don't feel bad about it still.

1:06:48I mean, even talking to you about it, there's parts of me that feel guilty. But at the same time, we have to understand that difference between guilt and growth. And guilt can keep you blocked forever from growth. And growth is far more the healer of guilt. Oh, that's so good. Understanding the difference between guilt and growth. Yeah. And I'm more focused on growth. I'd rather become better and be better and choose better moving forward than make myself feel bad and criticize myself and judge myself to feel guilty and i think often we stay in that place of like i'm going to criticize myself i'm going to judge myself i'm going to make myself feel guilty because somehow that makes me feel better that i feel bad about it yes but actually growth is me really saying that i feel bad about it because i'm choosing to become better now for the future jay shetty i could talk to you for hours I could talk to you for a while, Elizabeth.

1:07:39This has been an education in enlightenment. I'm so grateful to you for how you are in the world, for the books that you write, for taking the time to talk to me and for ensuring that I'll never watch The Notebook in the same way again. Well, I want to thank you because I really, and I don't just say this, I say this when I feel it. And there's an energy that you create in this room. There's a space, there's a tone of your voice, there's a presence in your questioning. and I really love observing all these like very micro moments and sometimes I feel that way and I feel I've gone inward to answer a question versus going outward and I felt like that today in this in your presence and in your space and the wonderful atmosphere you've created I just wanted to acknowledge that because yeah if anything's been good in this conversation it's because you can be in a room sometimes and you can feel that there's so much space and there's so much pace and this room feels so slow right now and it feels so present and it feels so there's just like a beauty in this room that you know and that's your energy so you're energetically great strategically great and um i'm not getting paid for this i can't thank you i'll buy your book yeah i really i really appreciate you thank you i appreciate you thank you so much thank you

1:08:58if you enjoyed this episode of how to fail with elizabeth day i would so appreciate it if you could rate, review and subscribe. Apparently it helps other people know that we exist.