S17, Ep9 Mae Muller on failing to win Eurovision - but finding her voice

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1:16Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. At 25, Mae Muller is already an icon. She was Great Britain's Eurovision entry for 2023, and her fantastic pop banger, I Wrote a Song, reached the top 10, the first UK Eurovision song in over a decade to do so.

2:03And yes, okay, she came second last on the night, but her infectious personality and hilarious self-deprecation has won her a legion of fans and cemented her as an LGBTQ plus hun of the highest order. She grew up in Kentish Town, North London, and began writing her own music at the age of seven. She has the diaries to prove it. After fine arts college, she was holding down jobs in a pub and a clothing store when she bribed a friend with a bottle of wine to produce a few demos. Muller uploaded them onto SoundCloud in 2017, shared a video of her singing to Instagram, and was signed by Capitol Records in 2018.

2:44She went on to support Little Mix on their tour and released a collaboration in 2021 which reached the top 40. Her debut studio album Sorry I'm Late is to be released later this year. An ode to May Muller was published in the student newspaper The Tab a few months ago. In it, the journalist Harrison Brocklehurst stated that, I wrote a song is the gay agenda. Literally everything May Muller wears, every picture of her, every video is the definition of great vibes. Effortlessly hot, instantly charming, extremely likable I want to be her May Muller welcome to how to fail I can't believe it had you heard that before had you read that I had I had read that before and I was I find it more surreal reading really really nice things about myself than like the really horrible things I don't know if that makes any sense but I'm like oh my gosh someone's like really taking their time to just like write something really nice about me that's so nice what do you think it is that so many people connect and relate to?

3:53I know that's probably an impossible question. It's always something that I have wanted, as in, you know, I want people to connect with my music, I want people to like my music, of course, but I've always wanted to have like a close proximity with the people that know who I am and know my music. I've never wanted to be this kind of like far away, like unobtainable, like who is May Muller? I don't really know what her vibe is, like who I'm not about the mystery I'm like let's have a chat let's have a drink because that's what I like from the artists I love you know like Adele Amy Winehouse you kind of you knew who they were and they weren't this big mystery and I kind of like that and there's some artists that do the mystery thing really really well and it's their thing but it's not it's not for me well I think you mentioned Adele and Amy Winehouse and I know Lily Allen was also a seminal influence on you wasn't a change.

4:47Lily Allen is like the reason why I write music. Like I don't think I would have like would be in this position if I hadn't discovered her. Her honesty just really struck a chord with me and I was I must have been like eight or younger. No probably around eight when her All Right Still and her debut album came out and of course like all the subject matter like I didn't really fully understand because I was eight but I was sort of in awe of it from the very beginning because she was just so honest and she sang with her accent and she didn't try and be kind of anybody else kind of thing and she was very you know true about her experiences as a woman and I just I loved that and she's funny yeah and you would listen to her music and you'd be kind of laughing and it's she's like the queen of tongue-in-cheek and that was something that was really really inspiring to me because I think for a long time for women in music you either had to be like really really sexy you know which is great I could be a bit sexy now and again you know or you were kind of singing like ballads and I think people like Lily really like paved the way I think for artists like me where it's like actually I can do it my way and write like this and I don't have to fit into any kind of box which I thought was really cool.

6:05I think also what all four of you have in common is that you're all unapologetically yourselves and I wonder if you feel like you've always had that you've always had a strong point of view about the world that you know what you think about things no okay great I'm so relieved you said that because I've never felt like that like I always feel my opinion must be wrong no I know honestly I mean I still to this day it's taken work work on myself to get to that point where I feel like I can speak about things and be confident and just like who I am and I from a very young age I have kind of been like a people pleaser and when I was younger or a teenager I would do things and say things just because I thought that's what I should say and in my early early relationships like that was completely how I was I kind of molded myself to be like what they wanted me to be what did they want me to say and I think when I started to write music I was like I kind of found that as I'm gonna make up for all of that and that's how I'm gonna do it I'm gonna be the most unapologetic version of myself I'm gonna say whatever I want even if it's shocking even if people don't like it because all those years that I spent trying to like make myself smaller and more palatable like I was like no so I think when I first started releasing music I was like I'm just gonna say whatever and it was sort of making up for that kind of what I felt was like such time wasted.

7:30Yeah I love that. So take me back a little bit to when you were seven or eight and you heard Lily Allen and you were writing songs in your diaries. Is that the earliest time you can remember wanting to do that? Wanting to be a singer? Yeah I think from when I could have my own thoughts and like speak that I just was so drawn to the idea of performing and yeah it was Lily Allen Florence the Machine and like Gwen Stefani who were all sort of my heroes when I was younger listening to them that you know when I was six seven it made me want to try and write my own stuff and I remember there was one song and I need to find it because it's in a diary somewhere and somewhere locked away and Florence the Machine has a song on her first album I'm pretty sure it's called My Boy builds coffins or something along those lines you know very Florence and so I as a seven-year-old listened to that my own interpretation was like my boy like turns into a werewolf like in the middle of the night and I just I don't know what eight-year-old like what my brain was doing but you know listening to them tell their stories made me want to sort of do it so I kind of just copied them from when I was a kid and I just sort of wanted to just do everything they did but I think it was definitely listening to those you know those women that made me want to sort of write everything down.

8:50What did your parents think? They've always been very supportive. I mean, they were just like, I've just been an attention seeker from my five, you know, being like, everyone, I've written a play. I've written a song. Everyone has to sit on the sofa now and listen to me do it. And they always would. And they would sit there and they'd film and there's a lot of good footage of me, you know, dancing on the coffee table. But I'm so lucky that they gave me that support and space. And I'm sure sometimes they were just like, I don't want to sit to another another one of these plays but they did I loved the feeling it gave me I liked the feeling when people were looking at me when I was performing and showing people look what I've done I look what I've written look what I've created so it's always been something sort of there within me that I've really enjoyed do you have flaws tattooed on your hand yes that's so cool I'm so on brand for this podcast did you get it done especially I did especially for you Elizabeth no that you're like one of the few people that can actually read that first time I've actually got a song called Flaws which is I wrote a few years ago this was in my stage of being like I'm a powerful woman and you're gonna believe it when I say it and so I kind of wrote this song about you know it was called Flaws and it was just about just me being a bad bitch okay was it about you being at peace with your flaws and yeah kind of but it was sort of saying like I don't see any flaws when I look at myself I'm just perfect but I mean a lot of my music now the early stuff I love it all but I can hear that I'm trying to prove myself and that's so funny that five minutes ago I was just saying how in the early stages of my career I just like wanted to get away from my people pleasing and saying things but even in those early stages when I was writing those songs I was still trying to prove myself as this like confident like I've got this and I've got that and like no one can like bring me down but I was kind of faking it a little bit but fake it till you make it because now that's genuinely how I feel but I think a lot of that was just kind of saying it until I yes it confidence is a muscle that you can flex almost it's you build up that kind of muscular resilience and then suddenly you're like actually I feel I can be this but tell me how you feel about your debut album first of all tell me about the title The album's been done for quite a while, but I had no idea what I wanted to call it.

11:11And I was kind of just like brainstorming all these different ideas. And I was just kind of thinking, what do I want this album title to mean? Because I was trying to think of what the themes of the album, what they are. But there's so many kind of different ones. I don't think I could really put it into one title. So I thought with Sorry I'm Late, I've been working on it for so long. My fans are always like, where is it? Where's the album? Where's the album? and I just thought it was a way of being like, do you know what? It took a minute, but I'm here now and I'm not going anywhere. And that was kind of how all the visuals came about.

11:47The cover art is me like sat at a dining table. Everyone that's sat at the dining table with me is a version of myself and they all represent a song on the album. They're all waiting for me at the dinner table and then I arrive last because I'm like, oh, sorry, I'm late, but I'm here and let's get this show on the road kind of thing. the second I sort of thought of that because I had titles before but nothing was really sticking and I couldn't really think of what the visual was going to be and the second I thought of sorry I'm late I kind of got all these ideas and I think that's when you know you've got something good when the ideas kind of come a bit more naturally yeah so how are you feeling about the album I'm very excited so it's out on September 15th which is not very far I'm just so excited to show people a different side to me and I think my thing first and foremost is I'm a songwriter and I think a lot of people even though I you know I scream and shout about it and I've literally just written a song called I wrote a song but I just do feel like I do feel like that's it's so important for people to know that that's something I take really seriously and that my storytelling is like my first love like that's my bread and butter and I think this album really really shows that I'm really proud of each and every song on there and I think after you know obviously I've just done Eurovision and that was sort of doing the one song for like four months so now I'm like here you go here's 17 tracks that you can listen to but I'm really excited about it.

13:11Congratulations before we get on to Eurovision because we are getting there I want to ask you a question about success and what it means in the music industry because I imagine that it's quite a complicated metric like how do you know if you're successful and is that different from feeling it inside honestly the whole success thing I have no idea I think in music it can be measured so differently like it just depends on how you view it some people think chart success if you are getting chart success you've won it live but then some people that chart all the time like they can't sell tickets do you know what I mean but they might not care about that whereas someone else who might never chart there are some artists that like do not chart but they can sell thousands of tickets like all over the world or like streaming like you might stream really well it just depends on what in like I guess those kind of things like how you measure it I mean for me I just think being successful in music is like basically not caring about what anyone thinks and just doing what you want to do that to me is real success in music I know it might sound a bit cliche but I think if I can get to a point where I'm not comparing myself to everybody else not feeling like so much like agonizing pressure all the time and still making art and doing my shows that's success to me because if you're charting and streaming but then you're you know having a terrible time like is that success I don't know and I think in music it's so hard to get it all right so I don't know I'm still figuring it out myself yeah has the because I also speak as someone who I fall victim to comparison a lot is that journey getting easier for you I don't want to be a pessimist but I just I don't think it ever will I think because I know my brain I know what I'm like and I think especially for women in a creative industry like it's built for us to compare ourselves it's built for oh she's doing that she's doing that so you've got to do this and she's got this deal and she looks like that and it's just like I just think the female experience like we're always having to compare ourselves so it's really hard to like unlearn that but I am learning how to deal with it because I don't think it will ever truly go away but now it's like say if I see someone doing something and I get a pang of jealousy or that kind of resentment and I'm like oh I should be doing it or that should be me or why why am I not there yet if I don't follow them already or if it's something online and I'll like reach out or like I'll comment and say something really positive because really that's actually how I feel yes like I'm jealous because I think it's amazing and I once I started doing that putting that positivity out there and actually saying this is so sick like congratulations it kind of just like evaporates that horrible bug of jealousy and resentment that horrible ugly feeling most of the time like they'll reply back and be like oh my gosh thank you like you're doing great and it's just I don't know it just kind of makes all that negativity kind of subside so that's really how I try and deal with that is just trying to spread as much positivity as I can and I think if you told me five years ago what I was doing now I'd be like oh my god you're smashing it so I think it's just hard to get perspective sometimes it's extremely wise of you though because there's a woman called Glennon Doyle who wrote an incredible book called Untamed and she came on how to fail and she said exactly the same thing as you that when she feels jealous it's often because it's actually you can repackage it as opportunity it's like okay that person has something that I admire how can I get there too yes and she does the same thing she reaches out she's like I loved this piece of work that you did and similarly has found that it just if you smother something with love it's kind of really healthy for everyone involved and as women we have been conditioned to believe in scarcity of resources and so there's only so much room for one of us and actually that's a lie it's such a lie yeah it is it's such a lie honestly there's room for everyone there really is like yeah let's get on to your failures because i know that there'll be people listening to this now screaming at me for not asking you about eurovision but it's because i've been keeping my powder dry as a huge eurovision fan i am so delighted that you chose eurovision as your first failure because you were absolutely phenomenal thank you you were it was brilliant you were brilliant everyone loved you and it didn't go your way on the night but part of what we love about Eurovision is it's so unhinged you never know what's going to win it is absolutely unhinged oh my gosh I mean obviously I kind of knew that that's what everyone kind of that's one of the things everyone loves about it because it is just mad but being on the inside of it oh my gosh I can't explain to you just how nuts it truly is from start to finish it was just nuts why so what talk us through what actually happens so from when you find out from so before you're announced the work starts like straight away because you always have to film all this stuff for announced and it's all really really secret like you can't say a word I had an amazing time and I'm really really happy I did it and obviously everyone that takes part is under a crazy amount of pressure but I think for me my experience from beginning to end it was just like pressure from all angles and I think it got it just it got to me and it was surprising for me because usually nothing really gets to me shows I performed at Wembley Stadium the other day doing summertime ball I was like cool like I don't really get nervous and scared or feel pressure it was really difficult a lot of the time just because I I think a lot of it is stuff you put on yourself but I think just from all angles I allowed all the pressures to get to me and even from before I was announced I could see that everyone thought it was either Rina Sawayama or like Mimi Webb or you know all these amazing artists so in my head I'm like oh my god they don't know it's me everyone's gonna hate that news oh god because they're all expecting one thing and so when I was announced there was that thing of I mean to be honest most people were really supportive and amazing and I think once I could start to be myself online and show myself people kind of bought into it but from the get-go people were like who's this we don't want her like we want a rena like this is not what we wanted so already I kind of had to like okay I've got to prove myself that I'm worthy and that like obviously rena is an actual queen so I need to like prove that I can still get people excited for it so I got to that stage and then but then it's just like press press press and then obviously before I even got to Liverpool just so much happened well someone from your record label is here and I was chatting to her just beforehand she said it's like a political campaign which I hadn't appreciated that you have to go to every country is that right you have to go to lots of countries and perform your song and it's almost like glad handing and it's it's a proper campaign almost to be elected yeah no it is there are pre-parties so we did Barcelona Madrid Poland London Amsterdam I think there are a few more and that's just the pre-parties and then you're doing like press all around the first one was barcelona and i was sick as a dog like oh like not sick in a in a cool way not in a cool not in a dictionary way no i was really ill and that was my first time performing a song and it was like the first time putting myself out there in this sort of new world my vocals were trash the performance was trash because i just i wasn't well and i was kind of nervous and there were some choices that were made that I don't think were it was just like not my best performance and that people were ready to kind of just jump on that and I think that just really set me off in like a in a negative headspace because usually I don't care what people think or say but I think this time around I was just like oh damn I was so so eager to like prove myself so when that happened it kind of like knocked me a bit and this is is this in the weeks before the contest or the months before no this is like this is probably like a month before okay like a month and a half that's a long old run-up and I imagine that part of the pressure is that you feel you're representing your entire country yes but I don't think I was really because I was but I feel like people thought I wasn't because obviously I've got my views yes and I've said things in the past which I stand by yeah tell us what you said so you're referring to tweets which I bloody love like that's part of why you're brilliant is that you are a young woman with a voice and you're hilarious and you don't filter yourself and what you say is absolutely factually correct okay in my opinion but you tweeted some things that were about how disappointed you felt in certain political decisions, in the Brexit referendum.

22:11Yeah. And some of that was taken out of context and used a stick to beat you with. That happened a good, like, a month and a half before the final was even... But the thing is, that was fine for me because, you know, when people are like, oh, yeah, they've brought some, like, old tweets up and you're saying this, you're saying that. And I was like, I'll say it again. And I'll say it again. I've never had that. I was the front page of the Telegraph. I've never had that before so it was just like a very strange when I was younger and I was like you're gonna be on the cover of this and that like that you know my dreams that was not how I thought it would be so that was kind of strange because I think obviously that kind of rubbed a lot of people up the wrong way and they thought that I hated the country and that I was this kind of left-wing activist which I think there are far worse things you can be in this life but hey ho so there was already a lot of other pressures on that just because people really didn't like that and they wanted me to fail big time.

23:07They were like, we don't want her. I can't wait until she comes last. And I was like, second last. Who's laughing now? Who's laughing now? I had like politicians, really high up Tory politicians talking about me. And I was just like, I'm just a girl. I wrote a song and now I'm doing this. Like, this is crazy. What they were actually saying and who was saying it like never got to me because I don't search for validation like from those people. you'd be worried if they did like you yeah I'd be worried and the people that were supporting me I was like yeah these are the people that you know if I'd like offended the LGBTQ plus community then I'd be like fuck shit like then I'd be worried do you know what I mean because like those are the people that I respect and want in my team but people that I like don't respect others and are just disrespectful I'm like yeah you can hate me I don't care

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25:49So you're in this kind of cauldron of attention and stress and anticipation leading up to Liverpool. how do you manage to keep yourself relatively sane how did you deal with what I imagine was a lot of anxiety I started watching Vanderpump Rules okay we need to devote a whole I know half hour to this I haven't actually I'm on season 10 I've not even I've not finished it but I obviously know like what happens but I'm like no no no I'm so proud of you thank you I um yeah I just watch Vanderpump Rules like anytime I wasn't like working or doing something I just had that on and it just kind of like it made me realize that there's like another world outside of Eurovision.

26:30Yes. Because that's what it feels like. It feels like you're in a different world. You're in a different reality. You can't actually believe when you're doing it that there are other things happening because it's just so intense. So yeah I watched a lot of like Vanderpump Rules. Tried to like just like talk to my friends a lot. I found it very very like anxiety inducing. I'm not used to that as in about my work and music like that's the thing that brings me like joy and pride so it was just like a very alien experience for me to like have such like anxiety about what I was doing in music kind of thing but I try to sort of just relax and I have a really amazing team like my vocal coach Annie and my choreographer Claude like they really helped me and there were so many times where I just cried and I was just like I can't like I cannot do it and they were like girl you're gonna have to do it but they were really good at just like pushing me through that and helping me and giving me support when I needed it you know poor thing that is so much I am making it sound like really really awful but get onto the joy in a second we'll get onto the joy and there was a lot of joy but it was also yeah very hard so did you seriously think of quitting of just like no obviously I would never that was just not an option for me I was like I'm never gonna do that but there was some serious moments where I was just like I don't know how to get through it because it was just so much there's no sort of time when you're not being watched like all the rehearsals like even like the in the pre-parties like the sound checks all the moments when you're kind of supposed to be like that's your time to practice and like get it ready on stage like there's press there there are fans there and the fans are amazing they're some of the best people I've ever met at any gigs they're just so here for it they're so knowledgeable about Eurovision and they they really love it and so that was for me what kind of drove me as well I was like I have to do it for these fans that Eurovision is so important to them so I was like I've got to give it my all but there's no kind of like okay you can rehearse and there's no eyes on you so it was just every situation was just very like pressurized so the night itself uh sorry no I'm joking I'm absolutely fine I don't want to trigger you no I'm triggered she's traumatized how was it on the night itself did were you incredibly nervous in advance before you went on stage I was nervous obviously but it was just an overwhelming sense of like in three minutes it's going to be done like you would have done it like you've done it so that was kind of all I was thinking but you know before the final there's like five full performances we do there's the jury night then there's the final but then there was also I performed at the semi-final I did like a performance for that and so I got a few times to sort of really run it through but I'm being 100 % honest with you there was not one time where I did that performance even rehearsing where I was like I'm 100 % happy with that not once like I know vocally like I couldn't get it together like I just couldn't and I know and that is the one thing that now I'm like oh because you know people go like you can't even sing like you can't sing live and that's what really hurts me because touring is I love it so much and I know that I can and so now I feel like I've just got this other thing to prove where it's like I've got to do so many shows now and I've got to smash it because I need to show that like I can actually do it but for Eurovision I was completely in my head but the other side of that was I the whole promo side and like even just at the TikTok side and like connecting with the fans like I loved that part yes like I loved we loved that part we loved that part and part of what we loved was that after what happened happened you owned where you'd come on the leaderboard with such humour and brilliance and your own voice that if anything we all ended up loving you so much more like so much more than we would have done if you'd won to be quite honest like I think that's really the test of your character is how you responded to that thank you for saying that because I remember on the night obviously I was really upset but then there was the after party and I still went I was like I'm going I'm having drinks the next day I must have been like I think I can't remember exactly what day it was Sunday or Monday the next day I was like that was the one day where I really just like allowed myself to like wallow in it and because I know because of what I post and my TikToks like it's funny and it's a joke but like it really like obviously I was heartbroken I was heartbroken but I gave myself a day I was like you're going to be a victim for one day and then you're not because that was the one thing I couldn't stand is like I can't deal with like people pitying me I just don't want that so I was like you're gonna have a day to think your life is over to think your career is over I cried so much and my dad was there with me the entire time he drove me back to Liverpool because he came he came to the show and the next day he drove me back and he just allowed me to like cry be upset and then the next day I was like cool that's done I got through it and now I'm not having people look at me like pity looks like oh no I was like no it's not an option and that's when I made that TikTok the one that everyone kind of saw love of huns posted it which was very exciting I mean that is a life goal no honestly I was like who needs to win Eurovision right love of huns post you like hello and the second I did that and took ownership of the narrative and took control that was probably like the most myself I felt in like the whole Eurovision experience because I was like okay yeah the second I started taking control of it I started to feel better yourself again yeah but isn't that interesting that like that's the thing that drew you to music in the first place was all of these unapologetic women being themselves and that's what you do in every song that you write like I wrote a song is about not being a victim in the wake of a breakup and as soon as you got back to that bit of yourself it was okay again yeah yeah it's true in the midst of all of this chaos yeah what were some of the highlights just the sheer moments of joy for you of the whole Eurovision experience I think it was just connecting with especially the fans I feel like you know we went to Poland and there were crowds of people like screaming the song and before I would have gone to Poland and no one would have even like known who I was kind of thing do you know what I mean and I don't want to discredit what I've done before Eurovision because I feel like I was at a place where I was proud of where I was but it just took it to another level and so that was really really nice to go to you know Barcelona and Madrid and Poland Amsterdam and just meeting all these people that I wouldn't have got to meet and see how they were enjoying the song like that was amazing and also meeting the other contestants as well that was one like really joyous thing I think is just the other contestants and how lovely they were like how talented they all are I was so inspired by so many of them and being in that space with them that was really nice and yeah it didn't feel like a competition yeah there wasn't any like oh yeah like that's I don't know it was just everyone just kind of rallied around each other and wanted each other to win you know are you still in touch with any of them yeah do you have a whatsapp group we don't have a whatsapp group which is really I feel like we definitely should I mean maybe they are maybe they do and I'm just not I'm just not in it yeah I Joe Corral I still speak to you know Bohan from Joe Corral I still speak to Taya and Selena I speak to Noah Carell occasionally I'm probably missing some people out but like it's nice to kind of still have that kind of hub of people because it was it's such a journey and you did that yourself and nobody knows what it's like apart from the people that have done it so that was a highlight for sure just to meet them well done well done for doing it thank you and now you've done it i've got a top 10 out of it yes that's the true success how many other people would have crawled over hot coals to have that.

34:44Let's get on to your second failure, which is failed relationships. Oh, yes. So you wrote from toxic relationships in both personal and professional life that you found it hard to trust people. What was your first toxic relationship? My first toxic relationship? Well, my first relationship, I was 15. So my brain probably hadn't even like fully developed yet and I was with him for two and a half years I only just started speaking about this very recently because I was like I don't want this relationship in this person to like have any like credit in my story but it's what makes you who you are and I probably wouldn't have written the songs that I've written if it didn't happen so ditto with this podcast by the way sorry how to fail wouldn't exist were it not for a breakup do you know I really yes yeah see I think that relationship even though I hate to admit it I think it genuinely did traumatize me like for life in a way and not in a way where you know I'm sort of de-habilitated is that the right word yeah de - oh my god it's like we've lost all of our work I should know words I write songs for a living anyways but I think it just changed the way I saw men and how I saw like relationships how I viewed love how I viewed myself in a lot of ways how was it toxic he was just very very emotionally abusive sometimes physically abusive and I think when you are so young that's okay when you're so young I thought that that's just what love was it's crazy because my parents are the most loving like supportive like my dad is like the loveliest like most gentle man my mum is just amazing and I almost felt guilty because I'm like after all that love that they gave me I went and chose this for myself kind of thing so I had a lot of like afterwards I had a kind of a lot of guilt and I felt a lot very stupid but you're 15 you know and it was just very very like emotionally abusive cheated on me but I can get past that you know he was a kid himself as well but it was just the emotional abuse very gaslighty like extremely gaslighty like literally made me believe I was absolutely crazy I wouldn't wear certain things like everything you can imagine was that's what it was I think when that's your first idea of like what a relationship is like what love is anything after that that wasn't as chaotic I was like what's this then like you obviously don't care because you're not you're not like you're not threatening me you're not throwing my phone across the room like you're not like getting aggressive you must not love me like and I think I brought a lot of those toxic traits into my next relationship I'm sure he'd probably call me oh my ex was such a psycho and I probably was a little bit because I was so traumatized by what I had just been through but now in a lot of ways I'm very very thankful that I went through that at such a young age because now I'm 25 I will never allow someone to treat me like that again never like the second I get a hint of disrespect I'm out because I've done that I don't need to do it again because for a while I kind of let it like block a lot of blessings and you know I'm sure I messed up quite a few good things because of it and now I've really kind of worked on that and when someone is showing me like genuine love like I'm not gonna sabotage it because I can like recognize it and if I get those feelings like bubbling up I know what it is kind of thing but yeah it was difficult what you're saying I relate to so much of it although it's taken me many decades longer to learn the lessons that you have clearly learned and now I feel that there is nothing more romantic in a relationship than a feeling of safety if you feel unsafe that's not true love no and so much of our culture fetishizes that idea of passion being unpredictable and temperamental yeah and it's not it's not and that's so funny I remember when I was going through it and my friends they were like seriously concerned like they were seriously worried about my situation and what was going to happen to me and like and I remember saying it to one of my best friends ever and she was going through a similar thing at the time with her boyfriend at that age I remember us both saying to each other like they just don't understand like they don't get it like they don't understand it's passion now thinking back I'm like oh gosh like what an idiot but I think it's very misconstrued that kind of aggressiveness it's almost seen as like that fiery love there's actually so much more in feeling safe and feeling like protected and I think being protected is being actually like gentle and like someone who's going to stick up for you but not bring you down and not control you yeah and I think that was a big thing you know the whole control something that I'm still working on now because of that I'm scared of causing a rift with anyone conflict avoidant yes yes I hate conflict now because I think I had so much of it when I was younger yeah and sometimes it's to my disadvantage because sometimes like I will not say how I feel sometimes with friends or if I've had partners just because I don't want a conflict like I don't want to argue and I think sometimes you do have to bring things up to you know move on or get past things and I need to remember like people that love me they're not going to react like that like they're not going to hurt me like they're not gonna so I think I'm still learning to be able to sometimes like bring things up without having that fear.

40:23I think sometimes when we're conflict avoidant and we've had those sort of relationships where we've had to tread on eggshells not only do we have our feelings, but we feel that we have to hide our feelings, deny them, not bring them up, not make them an issue. But we're also taking on emotional labor of someone else's feelings and giving those feelings loads of space. So you're doing the emotional labor of two people and then of the relationship as a whole. And it's so exhausting. And part of your journey, I feel, as it was for me, is to understand that you have every right to your feelings. And they are valid and you can express them.

41:06Yeah. It sounds so simple, but I understand how hard it is when you come from that kind of situation. Yeah. I wonder how it's played out in your professional life, because being a young woman in music, I mean, it doesn't get the greatest press. And for someone who is conflict avoidant, how do you manage that? It's funny because it has been sometimes quite difficult, I think. And it's funny because in my music, you wouldn't think that. It's like this girl knows how to like say how she feels. But like I said, like my music is a way of doing that without actually having to do it. That makes sense.

41:42But yeah, sometimes it's been really hard. My first manager, I've not spoken about that publicly either, but it's such an important part of my whole journey. Three years I had a manager and that was like complete toxicity. I met them when I was 19 and it was just very became very like codependent it just was really nasty and they took advantage of me big time because they could see that I was conflict avoidant I didn't want to cause anything and I was so young and I was new and I just wanted to do well and I think they really really took advantage of that was it a man no actually which was really disappointing not disappointing but it was just like but that hasn't changed you know I've always said still like I want my manager to be a woman because it just makes everything a lot easier but in this case it kind of felt like I'd gone from one toxic relationship to another but that also taught me as well in work you have to just say what you want from early on and in this industry as well like if people can see that they can take the piss like they will they are good people but just in music you just have to be careful so that was another thing where I had to kind of maneuver that and finally you know I let them go I basically I fired them and that was like the hardest thing I've ever done harder than any breakup because the whole thing was so toxic and the second I did that I was like oh my gosh you've just done that you've just done such a huge thing for you and no one else and it was a really hard thing but you did it anyway because you put yourself first and ever since then I think just how I am and my you know work really really changed and that really helped me actually going through that now.

43:20But it was a lot, yeah. Yeah, you realise sometimes you're stronger than you think. For sure. Go back to Eurovision as well for a sec, like that whole thing now, I'm like, I'm one strong ass bitch because if I can do that, I can do anything. So all these things that feel horrible at the time, you know, like the toxic relationships, the emotional kind of damage that does and then getting through things with work and then when things don't go to plan and everything, they all feel like the end of the world. And then you get to the other side and it's like, oh my God, I feel so proud of myself and I feel so much stronger because all of that stuff that I went through and that happened to me, like that could have killed me off, but here I am.

44:03Yeah. Still pushing. Totally. And I often say that all failures can end up teaching you something, even if the only thing it teaches you is that you survived it. that's taught you about your strength and your resilience I love that yeah yeah get that tattooed on your other on your other hand that's my next one yes your final failure we're doing kind of reverse chronology I guess but it's that you failed at school yeah I love that you chose this one because not that many people do well it's quite literal I suppose but it's I think a big part of you know the reason why I sort of got to where I am I was never really a good school person were you at school in Kentish Town so I went to Ackland Burley which is yeah I used to live around the corner from there no way I used to walk past it on my way to therapy love that yes yeah so I went to Ackland Burley for secondary school which I loved I did love it but retaining information like having to sit down and do something at a certain time even now I really struggle like just my brain doesn't work that way so I found that really hard and then I actually went to college at fine arts college my secondary school was a state school and then I went to private school as a college and so for sixth form yeah and that switch was really really extreme in a negative way not in a negative way but in a it was just very interesting like so I was so so so privileged and so lucky that I got to go to that school because, you know, the amount of like attention that you get and the classes are much smaller.

45:41It was just the pupils that were there. I just felt very much like I was on the outskirts a lot of the time because I just couldn't really connect in the same way. I was just like, this is not my world. This is not my world. I was very thankful to be able to go I did better than I probably would have if I had not gone to fine arts but I still managed yeah I got a U in psychology so they couldn't even mark it it was unclassified I think that's what that stands for I'm not really sure but when you were actually in the exam could you like I know why I know what happened it was because for the psychology exam I knew that I only I only know like two essays like off by heart so I was like if it's not one of these two I'm failing because I don't know anything else and it wasn't so I just wrote the essay I knew anyway because there was nothing else for me to write so the essay that I wrote was good but it wasn't answering the question that they'd asked so they just you know they couldn't mark it properly so that was that but in a way I'm thankful because if I had done really really amazing in school and got all A's and whatever then I would have probably gone to university that was my dream to do music but I didn't know how to get there so I would have probably gone to university to like figure it out I suppose but I didn't and so I ended up just working and then while I was working it kind of gave me the time to write and figure that out so I'm kind of thankful that it worked out that way I'm a big big believer in like unless you want to be like a bloody surgeon or a scientist or like something really academic grades like whatever like you'll be fine I know that might be a bit of an annoying thing to say but I think especially when I was younger I think it's already like changed quite a bit but it was kind of like if you fail in school like you have failed at life yes and you will not do anything or get anywhere like you will be a failure and I think now those tides are really changing because there are so many other things you can do and there are so many other ways you can learn and especially if you want to do something creative I think the the thing to do is just to go out there and start doing it.

47:46I honestly think that's such a beautiful thing for people to hear, especially because we're entering or in exam season right now. And the amount of pressure on students at school, and it's the most over-examined, over-tested generation. It's not healthy. No. I just think there are so many other ways to learn. And for the kids that don't learn in one way, I think it can be extra difficult and stressful. and I just I want people to know that there are other ways and it's not the be all and end all yeah you know work hard do your best of course that's all you can do and then if there's other things especially now there are so many other ways you can succeed in life I didn't thrive in an academic environment at all no has your school either one of them have they ever asked you back to give a talk have they I went back to Ackland Burley yes I love it it was so nice they must be so proud of you it was really really sweet actually and miss james shout out miss james she is a queen she's a french teacher but she was my form tutor i was in her class basically and she's still there so i got to see her and she was so sweet that secondary school like 30 kids in each class everyone just a bit rowdy not behaving themselves so all the teachers out there like take my hat off to you you're amazing but it was nice that yeah they asked me back it was quite funny actually I was speaking in assembly in the year nine assembly so it was about probably like 200 kids and I thought it was just going to be like a question and answer thing and they kind of stood me up and they were like this is Mae Muller Eurovision entrant like artist and she's just gonna like speak to you and just like left me up there and I was like oh my god so I just had to improvise because I was like kids are like so I'm like scared I'm like I want them to like me yeah I had a nice chat with them but it was really really nice to yeah go back to somewhere that I've you know spent so much time in and it was a full circle moment for sure that's a lovely moment to draw this to a close but not before I've asked you quite a random question but I read that your grandfather escaped from Nazi Germany at the age of 12 and came to Britain yes is he still alive no that's one thing that it's life but he died when I was very very young when I was like a few months old so I think he was so traumatized that he probably wouldn't have even spoken about it anyway but he's such an inspirational person he came over when he was 12 on his own didn't speak a word of English and he became quite a successful journalist slash writer like made a pretty nice life for himself had kids and I just think you know I say you can't imagine it but like it's happening right now like all you know all over the world people are fleeing their homes and I think you know to send your child alone off into the sea what you're fleeing must be pretty damn terrifying that's why I say I feel very connected to like my Jewish roots because I'm not Jewish myself I've never practiced it and like isn't like your mum has to be Jewish for you to be but I feel very connected because my granddad went through so much at that such a young age and he kind of persevered and managed to kind of come out of it and succeed in a lot of ways so I feel very kind of you know I wouldn't be here if he didn't so I'm very kind of inspired by him and his story and I wish I could have known him because even just the things I hear about him and what my dad says or my aunt say like I know that we would have been really really close but even though I didn't really get to know him personally it's very like I feel very honored that that's sort of in my family and that's in my heritage that's so beautiful it's like you carry his spirit in you and i'm sure he would be so immensely proud of you as we all are as a nation and i have loved this conversation thanks i know i tend to i'm a bit of a rambler so sorry if i've you weren't rambling at all but also that's a dream for me because i barely need to ask any questions but thank you for being just so fully yourself and honest and you're brilliant and I can't wait to see what you do next thank you so much and everyone must rush out and buy your new single and your forthcoming album yay May Muller thank you so much coming on how to fail thank you so much for having me

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