S18, Ep10 Claudia Winkleman on the joy of imperfection

0:13Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. When Claudia Winkleman was younger, her parents gave her advice for entering the world of work. Make the tea, whoever you are. And although these days she is far beyond the realms of making the tea, you can imagine she still does it.

0:58Her nature as a broadcaster is always to be on your side, whether you're a viewer, a listener or a contestant. On Strictly Come Dancing, which she has co-hosted with Tess Daly for almost a decade, Winkleman is the one who cheers up Ed Balls after he's received a three from the judges. On her Saturday morning Radio 2 show, she encourages her millions of listeners to phone in and take part. And although her BAFTA-winning stint fronting the traitors showed us a darker side, Winkleman still ended up giving the main traitor a hug when they had a meltdown. I have no time for perfect, she has said. The perfect dinner party, the perfect bedspread, the perfect conversation starter.

1:41That all makes me feel nauseous. I like ramshackle and funny and smart, which is why I like shepherd's pie and bridge with my best and oldest friend. And I like things sort of decaying, including myself. I find that much more charming. I'm happy to fall apart. Claudia Winkleman, welcome to How to Fail. Thank you so much for having me. Now, Claudia was very worried that my introduction was going to be so nice that she would cringe into obsolescence. I don't really like nice, but that was charming and lovely. And I did write that last bit, or I said that last bit, so I can't argue with that. And my parents are amazing, and they did tell me, always be there the first, be there the last, make the tea.

2:26So I can't argue with any of it. And I kept it deliberately quite short, because there's so much I want to talk to you about. Because I utterly adore you. I adore you from afar. I adore you in your presence. Now I'm going to make you cringe. But I just wanted to get straight into chatting because there's so much to talk about. And I suppose the first thing I want to ask is about that thing of being happy to fall apart. When did you start feeling happy to fall apart? I think from quite early on. If there's perfect here, you know, people who want things to look good and ordered and and alphabeticized and organized.

3:02And then there's the other end. I'm past the other end. I like irregular and, as I say, ramshackle and messy. I'm not very good. I mean, just look at the way I do my eye makeup. I mean, I'm not very good at neat. So I think I learned that quite early on. And so maybe at university where I just couldn't compete with sort of just, I don't know, a nice clean cardigan and a fresh face and a lovely pony and notes written down possibly using two different colors and fonts I'm not that person so I just had to embrace it and I think my parents also really encouraged not being perfect like not having to come first you don't need to get the A star I'm never going to win a race I've never moved we'll discuss that later I imagine and And failing, that's why I love your podcast, because my dad is huge on failing.

3:58He thinks it's absolutely vital. I mean, it's important. We've all got to mess things up. I want to come back to your parents, but you mentioned university there. And even though your parents didn't put you under pressure to get an A star, which didn't really exist in our day, but you still got to Cambridge to study art history. And you said in the past your speciality was Rembrandt. And the way that you look is influenced by Rembrandt self-portraits. Well, yes. I mean, I was slightly exaggerating. But what I do like is the, and by the way, he was a genius, but I like chiaroscuro. I like smudged.

4:32I love smudged. I don't like pin sharp ever. I mean, look at the photos of my phone. They're all slightly wonky. I have 18 ,000 just of like a sofa end because I got confused. So yeah, I loved Rembrandt. I love Titian. It was an absolute honour to go to such a place and learn about paintings. Did you enjoy it? No, I was very homesick at the beginning, really homesick, because I lived in a world where, honestly, my mum and dad lived close to each other. They were divorced, and I had brilliant step-parents. That I would go home and they would go, I'm not being funny, but did you use the blue ink?

5:10Or have you just stuck with black? And for lunch, when you went to Boots and you shared a rap with Melanie, did you do the cheese and pickle? Or did you do the cheese and coleslaw? Then I'd go off to university and nobody cares what colour ink I'm using or what I had for my lunch. And it was so confusing to me. I was just like, guys, I have gone for Taramis Salata from the co-op. Yes, I have. And everyone was like, yeah, all right. Do you want to get drunk? I was like, no, I don't like it. So I was very homesick at the beginning, but then I loved it. Your parents sound like absolute legends. And I've had the honour of meeting your mother, Eve Pollard, one of the first ladies of Fleet Street, one of the first ever female editors of a national newspaper.

5:53And you mentioned there that they got divorced when you were three, but did a great job of co-parenting. A brilliant job. But it's interesting because one of the things that comes up when you read about Claudia Winkleman' positive history is this phrase that you have no full siblings, which is a weird phrase. So you have half siblings. Yeah, but I think of them as full. Right. That was going to be my question. I've never, we don't do half. And it was weird earlier when I was talking about my step-parents because I just sort of feel like I collected parents. You know, some people like snow globes and I just like family.

6:24So we don't use any of those words. So I've got brother and sister and then I've got three brilliant steps. So, yeah, no, I don't view them as halves. They are my brother and sister. Tell me about your parents. So my parents are utterly brilliant. So funny, clever, wise, so wise. I'm 51 now and I don't do anything without just checking with my dad. Honestly, anything. Even if I'm like, I'm going to try dry cleaners. I don't often send something to the dry cleaners. I phone them up. I go, it's called Nancy's. Where do you stand on this? And he goes, I like it. Take a photograph of the menu outside.

7:00Send it to me. I mean, so sweet. Yeah, I'm incredibly lucky. So supportive. Slightly amused when I started doing telly, I think. Just like, what's she doing? She studied art history. She wants to work in a gallery. But always supportive and very proud. and watch and listen to everything. And I've said to them, you really don't have to, guys. You don't feel like you have to. I can tell you who left, Strictly, or I can tell you who won Traitors, or I can tell you about the little win on Radio 2. They're like, no, no, no, we're there, we're with you. That's so sweet. One of the things that I read about years ago, not for this podcast, but has always stuck with me as a sort of brilliant bit of parenting, is that I think it was your dad, he used to take you to art galleries and say to you, you can only look at one painting.

7:47It's the most genius thing. It's so clever. It's so clever. So you know when you go for the day out or whether you're, I don't know, visiting a museum or an art gallery, you often think, well, I've come, either I've paid entry or I've, you know, it's been a whole event, I've brought a picnic. We'll do these three rooms, then we'll sit down. And by the end of the day, you are exhausted and you're like, no, thank you. Thanks very much. Well done, Rome, but no. so my dad because we're so lucky national gallery is free you stay with the national gallery and I loved it because you go past the lions and it was super glamorous and we'd take the tube and we'd go in every Saturday morning and I was only ever allowed to look at one painting and it was just genius and as we'd leave I'd go what about what about that and he'd go yeah that's Stubbs we'll do that next week and then we go into Chinatown have a massive bowl of noodles it seems to me that there's this great emphasis on paying attention to what seems to be the little things but actually they end up being the huge things and one of the things that I wanted to ask you about was your parents background so your father was born in 1939 yes your mother's parents they met in London but they came from Hungary and Austria and so they escaped the holocaust but much of their extended family didn't yes and I suppose I just want to ask you about what effect you think that might have had on you in terms of valuing life?

9:10Yes, I think the effect that had on my mum was enormous. So my mum grew up in a house where there was a suitcase packed in the hall every day because they thought they might have to run. And where my grandpa's pockets, he would always have cash hidden just in case that they have to run because all of their family were killed. So I think my mum really valued life and wanted everything to count. Now, I could have said anything to her. I could have said, do you know what? I'm going to do this. It doesn't matter that I do telly or whatever it was, but just make it count. It doesn't matter anything else.

9:46And my dad was brought up sort of in the same vein, but where culture was very important. So it's not necessarily about success, but it is about reveling in books and art and sculpture and looking up. Whenever you're with my dad, Barry, I mean, he's a hero. He's always looking up. So, you know, whether you're in King's Cross or whether you're in the Lake District, I've actually never been to the Lake District with them. I went once, took me 18 hours to get there. Beautiful. I will go back. But yeah, I think I'm so lucky, a privilege to be brought up by both of them. So I'm going to say something that will make you shrivel.

10:23You're clearly highly intelligent. No. You are. I'm just, that's my opinion. Okay, you're very sweet. And you're highly cultured. Where do you see light entertainment? I actually, I take exception to that phrase, even light entertainment. But where do you see it in the pantheon of all of this stuff that your parents taught you? Do you believe that it has profound value? Something like Strictly Come Dancing? I think Strictly Come Dancing is, well, it's Christmas, isn't it? And even though it starts in September. So I love being part of, and by the way, and I'm not just saying this to be faux self-deprecating.

10:58I'm an idiot because I know I do that a lot and I know it's annoying because it sounds disingenuous. But I promise you, on Strictly, which is a massive machine, a beautiful, glittery steam engine. I'm not even a cog. I am smaller than a cog. I don't know what that is. A bit of dust on the floor in the nicest possible way. I'd say the scores are in and I'm there to make sure people are OK. Angela Rippon likes Tannock's tea cakes. I will get them for her. That is my job. So I'm only a miniature part of it. But I love the fact that it does bring, if this doesn't sound too hideous, sort of joy on a Saturday night.

11:34And it's one of the few things that whole families watch together. So grandparents with their grandchildren, it feels very special to be part of that. But going back to, I'm not intelligent, but going back to, you know, doing exams and all of these things. I love exams and I like being tested. And that's live television in different form. So if you said to me now, Claude, let's scrap this podcast because actually you're rubbish and I've had much better guests. but be a love because you just get on the train to Manchester and go and meet the following five people because I promised them I would and blah blah whatever it is and then you've got to get them to John O 'Groats or and you've got to make sure they have a good time and stay on the way I don't know I like being tested and that is five four three two okay doesn't matter what it is I like dancing and I can't do it but if it was strictly come avocado chopping yeah but it was live on television I'm in so you like the adrenaline but also might I add I think you like the mothering maybe I like trying to look after them and I like I really like the nerves and I like I like the camaraderie I love being part of a big gang which university is as well you know when we're all like gotta write 5 ,000 words on Jura the guy did a rabbit and all of us in a panic.

12:57I don't know much else, by the way. It all left my head. It's a shame. Woodcuts. The apocalypse. Hair. Extraordinary. It was a hair, not a rabbit. Sorry. I really hope my lecturer isn't listening. It's like, what are you reading? Look at the ears. Of course it's not a rabbit. We've got a rabbit who I'm in love with. Have you? What's your rabbit called? Cheese. Oh. Yeah, my daughter's funny. I always wanted a rabbit. Yeah, I mean, they're cuter than it could possibly, but they're pooing. Next level. I can't remember what I was wanging on about. Nerves, adrenaline. Nerves, adrenaline. in and being part of the gang okay I have open talk back so when you do telly you have an earpiece and I always love open lots of people have closed which is you know they tell you you know move to the left or we've only got two minutes but I love hearing the entire gallery I love hearing the fact that they've run out of ginger biscuits when I'm in the middle of interviewing Les Dennis I feel part of something much bigger than myself beautiful before we get on to your failures I want to ask you about the traitors I loved the traitors so much I sent you a dm I didn't know you I just sent you a dm Claudia I just have to say this is the best piece of television I think I've ever seen I watched it all one weekend it was so incredible so so good the psychological warfare of it it was just genius and we did see a different side to you in that he was swathed in this tweed and roll neck and you were very kind of straight faced and a bit scary and headmistress like how hard was that impossible yeah so when I knew I wanted to do it they said to me can you go to Inverness for three weeks and I was like you don't seem to understand I never leave my bed it's a no and then they went no no but can you just watch can you just watch this because they'd made it in Holland and I was obsessed by it but we had no idea if it was going to do well and I literally she got on the train to Inverness holding some red leather gloves, a cloak, and they said at the end there are going to be ceremonial pouches.

14:54I was like, guys, I think we're fucked. I mean, I just, it's all over. Like night-night, I've had a really good run. I get it. Though my husband was like, okay, we're gonna have to rethink everything. I absolutely loved it. And when they said at the beginning, I hope this isn't a spoiler, I don't think anybody's gonna watch it if they haven't, I had to send two people home and I was like no but I can't I can't I can't I cuddle people when they've just been judged by Craig and they went yeah you can and I did it and my dad was so sweet because he watched I was like you don't have to watch I love you and he was like of course I'm gonna watch and he said oh no you make that face I said what face and he said you made that face when you were four when I go in I'm like a bit oh my god I was like did I he was like yes when I I told her you couldn't have an ice cream for breakfast.

15:40I was like, oh, okay. But I love them, but I also know too much. So I know I can't be close to them. I can't go really near them. And they kept on trying to separate me. Okay. But I love them for taking part. But the most important thing in that show is the game. And they have to be allowed to play the game. So me going in, going, you're not going to believe it. I mean, my favorite moment, talking about earpiece. I've got an earpiece on there, but it's closed. I don't hear the gallery, but it's just in case they need to say. But Sarah, who's my boss there, she never really talks to me. And I was in the round table.

16:15I just sort of have to disappear into the wall. Yes. And I let it all happen. And when two traitors turned on another traitor, there's this little voice, Sarah, in my ear, and she just said, what's your breathing? Oh, my gosh. And I was like, this is not nothing. Wow. I don't know what this is, but this is something. okay so i'm all i'm not going to give a spoiler alert because i if you haven't watched it you really should and i don't want to ruin your enjoyment my favorite bit is when one of the traitors who has played such a blinder of a game you see that facade crack and you comfort that person but in an entirely appropriate way which is you've played this game really well it's about gameplay so it was a such an extraordinary show to do because sometimes I just wanted the faithful to get them but then sometimes I just wanted the traitors to win you don't take sides or maybe you do as you watch but when you're standing there and you're in the middle of it for me for the crew you love them all but you respect more than anything is really good gameplay and that's what wins do you think it taught you something about stepping into that kind of powerful dark side that you had when you were four, when you couldn't get ice cream and that you could embrace again in your 50s.

17:39I mean, I imagine if you ask my kids, can she, is she always smiley and friendly? They'd be like, no, because when they haven't done their homework or if they haven't tidied their room or if they haven't said please or thank you, if they haven't cleared their plates, I get a bit traitorous-y on them. I don't make them wear a cloak. Watch the breathing because I'm about to stop it. But I can be quite strict. No, I absolutely loved it. I think the thing about traitors which really scared me, and I think that's what people tapped into, is we are told all our lives to trust our gut, aren't we? I've definitely been told as a woman and by both my parents and all my friends.

18:17It's all we say, trust your gut. You will know. If he's the one, if it's the right dry cleaners, if this is the flat you should rent, whatever it is, just trust your gut. And what traitors teaches you is your gut knows nothing. And you can't always trust it because your best friend might be lying to you it pulled the floor out from under me just to watch that because your friendships are very important the most important and it's the one thing that you're not self-deprecating about I think is that you know you have worked at your female friendships and they are extremely important to you and they've worked too but we don't take it for granted and I love them and if you said what are you proud of I can't be proud of anything I mean I'm quite proud of the way I roast a chicken quite uh did you bread sauce No, I don't.

19:04And I almost want to leave. I'm sorry. It's a solid no. I actually know that it's a character flaw in me that I love it. Do you love it? It's a weird thing from school where the chicken at school wasn't great, but the bread sauce could always be relied upon because it was always from the same packet. And was quite tasty. Yes, so I love packet bread sauce. Oh, you're adorable. I'm so glad you haven't walked out, thank you. No, of course I wouldn't. You're quite proud of how you roast chicken. But I, you know, but proud is exact. Of course I'm not. But I do. I love my girls. I love my friendships.

19:35They're everything. And you have to look after them. Dolly Alderton, who's a genius. She's a genius. And I read what she said once. And I realized that we've been doing that, which is you treat them like you do when you're in a relationship with the same love and the same care. And nobody said we were having dinner. We're having dinner. Or I'm coming around to yours. Or if something bad happens to anyone, we call it a state of emergency. and it's down tools. Okay, your failures. You've done that very, very generous thing of sending me many, many failures to choose from. I've got hundreds. I know.

20:09You can choose whichever you like. Your email itself was just an art form. Let's start with movement and then we'll go on to sleep. So why have you chosen movement as one of your failures? I mean, I've got lots. And also, I just think we should give a scatter gun. Like I'm not good at fun. I'm not good at change. I'm not good at yeah new I'm not good at impulsiveness I'm not good at anything but I'm really bad at movement I have never moved and I'm 51 my body I mean I've got I'd almost like to show you my stomach it's like it's made of crepe it's like layers and layers of weirdness so only last week I tried Pilates what's that all about yeah I'm not a huge Pilates fan do you do you're asking No, I don't.

20:57It's not even about what you look like. Who cares? Like, I want to be in bed. It's about strength. I don't have any strength. I can't open a jar. I can't open, I needed eye drops last week, an eye drop. I can't do it. I try it. I make a noise. I do a special chant. I bang it on something. I can barely brush my teeth. Do you think part of that is to do with growing up when we did? So it's like 80s, 90s. I'm much older than you. I love the fact that you're putting us in the same pocket. Are you insane? No, I could be your grandmother. Shut up. I'm about to be 45 and you're 51. I feel like, but I was born in 72.

21:31I asked for a crochet set for my 18. I suppose you're not a millennial. I'm on the cusp. I'm Gen X geriatric millennial cusp. No, I, yes, maybe we never moved and I don't have a garden, but I know I have to. I know I have to for longevity, for everything, for my head, for my body, for all of it. I need to do, I even just go for a walk. but I also think because we grew up in a culture where it wasn't cool to say I'm going to the gym do you remember like in the in the late 90s early 2000s if you exercise regularly it seemed a bit odd yeah and there was this sense that you had to naturally look a certain way but it came very easily to you yes yes that kind of effortless what this old thing exactly these abs yes and at the same time as that was happening there was this heroization of grunge culture and extreme thinness and I wonder if also part of not wanting to move was rebellion against that like actually fuck all that I'm going to look how I look I'm going to feel how I feel yes I think that's absolutely right that's a b have you ever been to a gym yes it's the most depressing thing I went once as a taster I went to fitness first and by the way I think fitness first is very good I'm not I'm not sagging them off as gyms go I'm sure it's fine big open thing down the stairs and you hear machines there are people everywhere already i'm practically agoraphobic then i mean i'm not but for what are you an introvert yes i love being by myself and i love who i love ditto i mean at 21 i think i said to my mom my sim card's full i'd only had a phone for six months i was like i'm done i'm done but i'm married to an extrovert constantly claude you're not going to believe i just met a lovely man he lives in leicester he said would we go up i said yes

23:28okay we're going to come on to that failure next but the movement thing so you've now realized that you have to yes and i would like people to let you and i know through the power of podcast world of what i should do i went to spin class i like that i've now introduced weight training which I love. Now, who do you do this with? I do this with a lovely man called Luke. Luke? Yes, and he's... Can I have Luke's number? 100%, I'll put you in touch. I've been working with him for a year and I wanted to feel stronger. I want to feel strong. Am I going to Luke's? Yes, you're going to go to Luke's. Well, I'll hook you up afterwards.

24:09You've already hooked me up with a spray tan woman before we started recording. You are going to, when you meet Sophia, you are going to resign from life and you're going to go, thanks very much. I'm going to say to your husband, babe, change of plan. I'm going to just stay at home and have spray tans. She is done. But the weight training thing is super interesting because I think I always felt that exercise, capital E, exercise, had to feel like it was a nightmare, like it was about to expire every single day. I don't want to do that. Yes. I thought it had to feel like that in order to be good for me.

24:40It's just such a weird dysfunctional way of thinking, which is why I did a lot of cardio but hated it. Yeah, I hate it. Weight training, I actively enjoy. And it's not cardio. As in, you'll get a cardio benefit because your heart rate goes up. But it's all about sort of strength, leanness, feeling empowered. Arms. Arms. At 51, if I wave at somebody, my arm continues to move for another month after it. I like, hi, I just need, yeah, okay. Do you actually not care about how you look? Or is that a front? I don't care about what I look like. Have you seen me? you're gorgeous no I'm disgusting no you're not I mean I want to look the same I don't mean I want to look the same I don't mind getting aged I want to look orange black eyes tipex mouth and let it all decay around me I don't want to suddenly go do you know what I'm throwing on a gloss and a bit of blush I don't want to change what I do I want to get decrepit looking the same but what I look like I mean my mum always said what you look like that's not the thing that can't be the thing so we didn't have any mirrors growing up I had no idea what I looked like.

25:50So is part of that opting out of a culture that does seem increasingly to be about appearance? Well I don't understand social media and I'm not being rude about it because this will be on social media and I'll post and your post and it can be absolutely fantastic and I love watching it because I watch baby goats and I watch a teddy bear cooking and I don't know what account that is but we should all follow it and I like it for fashion because I'm obsessed by fashion so I can watch all of the fashion shows just on my phone so I'm not being anti just for being a dick's sake but I don't really understand being able to see yourself all the time and I often you know when the kids have been playing my phone but the cameras switch around and I have to call somebody or I'm making a call and I'm like I don't understand why Ozzy Osbourne I didn't even invite him around and then And I'm like, oh, it's me.

26:38Yeah, I'd like to be in the dark about all of that. And also I've always had terrible eyesight. So which is going back to the blurriness of the paintings I like and the blurriness of how I'd really like life to be, which is no overhead lights. Just a 17th century is where I would have absolutely smashed it. Well, I'm not that keen on tulips. I wouldn't have said that then, obviously. But like a lit candle and everything just being a bit fuzzy around the outside. So I was born, I think I was minus 15. So I've never really been able to see my face. Oh, my goodness. It's all guesswork. I had no idea.

27:13Yeah. So you wear heavy duty contact lenses? I had a couple of operations since then because I was just, yeah, banging into walls. But yeah, now I wear lenses or glasses or whatever. But I can't, everything is ish. It's just a vague idea, which is how I'd like to live. One of my best friends, mum's best friend, I know this is a long story, went to Specshavers had her eyes fixed had the laser and she's quite sexy in her 70s like sort of blousy like great hair just a sort of attitude went had her eyes fixed went home looked at herself in the mirror and looked at her house with sharp focus went back to Specshavers said you've got to put it back did they I think they just laughed at her but she was just like no no I don't want to live in that's what I was saying before I don't want to live in perfect land I want to live in fuzzy world fascinating yeah and explain so much that's really profound your children how old are they now uh 20 17 12 and so has that had an impact on how you've raised them to not care about i try my hardest i try my hardest but also i'm ancient and annoying in their eyes correctly and embarrassing so as much as my daughter goes uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh yeah no i know it doesn't matter and then she'll go like mum what do you think of this highlighter and I get it yeah but yeah they are edible hello it's Elizabeth Day here you're probably sick of the sound of my voice but here I am again I hope you're enjoying the finale episode of season 18 of How to Fail and I wanted to pop on here to let you know that if you simply can't get enough of me, I'm going on tour next year to tie in with the paperback publication of my latest book, Friendaholic, Confessions of a Friendship Addict.

29:15It is a journey through friendship, both personal and also evolutionary and I unpack a lot of the significance of friendship and what people have said about it and my favourite thing is to take a book on the road in this way and get to open up these conversations to a wider audience and get to meet so many of you I can't wait these live shows are so so special I did a whole pile around the publication of the hardback I've done live shows with how to fail before and it is so unique because the atmosphere that is created by all of you lovely listeners and all of you lovely audience members is just so tantalisingly intimate gosh that sounds rather exciting but what I mean by that is that it sort of ends up being a really safe space for us to share what we've all learned from friendships and failures in our lives so I would love to see you there you can go to www.fane that's f-a-n-e.co.uk forward slash Elizabeth hyphen day for all of the info that's www.fane.co.uk forward slash Elizabeth hyphen day I am doing Derry which I'm super excited because that's where I grew up I'm doing Dublin I'm doing Chester which is also being streamed online if you can't make it in person I'm doing the London Palladium one of my favourite venues the Assembly Rooms Edinburgh and And for the first time, I'm coming to Bristol.

30:45So have a look. It's all happening in March 2024. And I hope very much to see you there. There will also be a link in the show notes. Now, back to Claudia. Your second failure is sleep. Yes. So I'm a sleep fanatic. It's really... So am I. Are you? I love sleep. How many hours do you get? Well, I can tell you this. Do you have an aura ring? No, I hate tracking, which we'll also talk about. but my husband loves tracking yeah and he recently was influenced by another podcast one of those man's podcasts into buying a sleep topper like a mattress that tracks your sleep but not only that you can choose what temperature you want your side of the bed to be what are you talking about i was okay i was very very anti it because i don't like being tracked but then i started getting a 98 99 scores once i got a perfect 100 and i was like i am nailing sleep and I get, I basically get eight hours a night.

31:44What time do you get into bed? I wish it were earlier but I tend to go to sleep around 11 but I'll get into bed at sort of 10.30 and read. Yes. Yeah, so anyway. I'm so happy for you. I'll also give you the details of that mattress stopper. Yeah. Well, also because I married a Dane. He likes it freezing. I like it freezing. Oh, I like it boiling. Oh, yeah, you are. I say I'll often go to bed with wearing two pairs of socks. Okay. Super hot. So you're a sleep fanatic? I'm a sleep fanatic. I've always slept I nap all the time in fact I had all my family around for lunch yesterday and it was adorable hence the roast chicken comment and I had a nap while they were there while they were all in the room and there's 10 of us this can you pass me that and I was like guys just got to get some shut eye lied on the sofa had a little sleep then woke up and how long is a nap?

32:33oh it can be 15 I can't go over 35 I'm not ill but because then you're messing then you feel terrible Yeah, with your... And also then you're messing with your... And also I don't close the curtains. I've got very strict nap rules that I could really bore you with, but I don't get under the covers. I'm happy to use an old towel or a coat. Well, you don't hang up. That's not a failure. I've never hung up a towel, apparently. I said to my husband, failures. And he went, buckle up. Anyway, the main one is 25 years of marriage. I've never hung up a towel. Whatever. We survived. It's not my thing, turns out.

33:04So I love sleep. And then lockdown and I must be very menopausal. I'm 51. Meant that I wasn't sleeping well enough. And I spoke to my girlfriend and she said, what you need is some CBD capsules. I was like, what are you talking about? What does that even mean? I don't even drink caffeine. That all feels quite risky. And she said, no, you're going to love it. And then I discovered Cannery and I love them so much. I sort of followed them around. It's really embarrassing. Found out where they lived, started wearing yellow. Anyway, I love them and it's really helped my sleep. thank goodness so canary are a cbd brand and you're launching a new range with them of candles yes candles a lip balm how do you feel about lip balm i love lip balm but i i used it so much at one point in my life that i became allergic to a specific kind not allergic you became an addict do you mean i think i became an addict and then again then i just sort of i just my lips started reacting again was it comics no i love i use comics every single day do i do and other lip brands are available.

34:05I don't know why I said that. I'm not on the BBC. Not like you. You can say whatever you want. Yeah, but I suddenly panic. Is that Vaseline? No, it was Vaseline. Yes, you can't use that. It was the lanolin. I think that was the thing. Okay. Anyway, the can of Ray lip balm that you designed is amazing. You are going to, and I know this is bad, you might defecate. All I want you to say, when you... Not because of the CBD. No, because you're going to love it so much. You're going to go, how did I... Yeah, they're really, really sweet. And I love them. And they were like, Like, I said, it's got to be minty.