S18, Ep6 Marina Abramovic: one of the greatest living artists on performance, passion and power

29:44all of the very, very strict directions. So that morning that we got gathered before we were going to get this parade, the part of this metal thing got detached and the piece of my leather sole actually got loose. And when I was doing this parade in the morning, just before we start real parade in the front of Tito, I was going flip-flop, flip-flop, flip-flop, flip-flop. And they look at me and say, you out. I was so ashamed. And I was so incredibly felt that it was the biggest failure that I'm not able to march in the front of Tito this parade because of these stupid orthopedic shoes. And I remembered incredible unhappiness and crying for weeks because of that.

30:30This was like a really little failure that I remember the first one that I could not deliver what I was expecting to deliver. So interesting that then the context of your thinking changes, but also the context of 20th century history. And so bizarre to feel looking back at that young Marina Abramovich, that the thing that upset her the most that is still in her mind, almost seven decades later, is failing in a communist parade. Parade. In the communist parade. And then immediately come the next failure. The next failure is, you know, I was very intellectual and very kind of, I was president of a chess section in our school, chess, sports, the game, and our school win, and actually my section win.

31:13And we were so proud, and I was chosen to go to the stage with all schools together, huge, huge auditorium. It was the biggest in that, and the first of the biggest now I'm used to, not that time, that I have to go again, the same orthopedic shoes, same look, you know, and all of this. And incredibly, I was so incredibly shy. I could not believe I became a performance artist later. I was so shy. I have to go to get this chessboard from my class. And that bastard, whoever was giving me this chessboard, he was just piling one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, I don't know how many, and I was holding them very carefully, and I turned to go off the stage, and, you know, I don't know whatever happened with the same shoes.

31:57I slip and I fall down and all chess boards just go under with incredible sound and all the things fall off. And entire auditorium love. I mean, all of them. This was the funniest. This was like a slapstick. This was like Tom and Jerry. This was like, you know, whoever, Charlie Chopper and Buster Keaton scene. And I go off the stage and not getting out of home for one month. So you felt shame and embarrassment. Incredible shame and embarrassment. And it's incredible. And that shame and embarrassment that I could not even walk on the street if somebody's behind me because I felt I would kind of slip or do something wrong.

32:39So from that moment to being in front of the public and doing performances, it's a huge step. It's astonishing. It's incredible. I'm impressed by myself because then I was painting, and the painting you're very protected in your studio. But I remember the moment that I done performance, that moment that I didn't present myself, but I present a body, universal body. It doesn't matter if I am fat or skinny or old or young. I didn't care. This was the body. This was the content. All of this fear disappeared like never being there. Do you think you're an introvert? Yeah. You know, and even now when you're thinking, you know, if I have to take off my clothes in the front of friends in the house, I will never do.

33:21but if I am naked in front of the public, I don't care. And it's incredible because it's not me who is there. It's the body who I present. It's the concept I present. And that kind of twist is like super me doing something for the public, giving them everything. And if I'm at home, I'm too shy. So with the artist as present, is it you who are present or the body of the artist? You know, it's interesting. I think an artist's presence is evolution of everything. An artist's presence is when I really mature, that I have body and soul and everything I give there. There was nothing. There was not one more molecule of energy that I didn't give.

34:03And I also show my vulnerability to the public. And this is something where we connect, that you see you're vulnerable. You're a human being. That's very important. You're not kind of superhero. You're just human. How did you prepare for the artist's present physically? I mean, did you drink a lot of water? I mean, when did you eat? I prepared for artist's present an entire year, like astronaut going on the moon or somewhere. I had an entire year to change my metabolism, but only eating in the night and drinking water and sleeping enough that then during the day I don't need to move or not go to the bathroom, not eat anything, that the sugar level is stable.

34:45It's one year preparation. Pure one. Did you know how to do that or did you ask for help? Oh, I had to ask for the help. I had a nutritionist. I asked for help. This to do what I've done is without this preparation was impossible. I don't want to embarrass the real Marina Abramovich, but you are a very beautiful woman. And it's intriguing to me that you didn't feel beautiful as a teenager. You felt awkward and you had these orthopedic shoes. Totally horrible. How do you feel about your physical presence now? Do you feel that you grew into it? are you at peace with how you look okay can I tell you the story please all right again something like I don't remember 14 15 years old I hate my nose I did such a big nose on the baby face and I absolutely want to have Bridget Barden nose the Bridget Barden was ideal I took every photograph Bridget Darborough straight left side right side you know whatever and I showed to my mother and every time I ask her if I can go to do my nose, she would slap my face and the conversation was ending there.

35:47Then I developed a perfect plan. On the Sunday, my mother was visiting some friends and father was playing chess somewhere. They had this big metromanial bed with very sharp edges. I put all the photographs of Bridget Bard in my pocket. I go to the bedroom and the idea was to spin around as fast as I can. I fall on the edge of the bed. I break my nose. I have to go to hospital to fix it. I have Bridget Bardo photographs already, so I just show it to the doctor and everything is perfect. So I went to bedroom. I spin around. I fail and I miss the nose and I cut my chin really badly. I fall on the ground, bleeding.

36:26All photographs of Bridget Bardo on the ground. My mother entered the space. She slapped me, brought me to hospital to put stitches. End of the story. So I am so happy that this didn't work because my nose on my face really fits perfectly now. So I feel much more confidence. And it's so strange that I've done so many cover pages right now for the show, you know, for the five cover pages for different magazines. They're coming. I am the woman of the year for the Carpets Bazaar this year, by the way. I think it's coming tomorrow, the cover. Then, you know, when the girls were 15 and 16 taking cover, I'm 77 in November.

37:09And I'm the cover of the magazine. Wow, that's a big progress. I'm enjoying every moment of my life right now. That's wonderful. In a way, that Bridget Bardot and the bed story, it's your first piece of performance art. And then, I don't know, but she aged not that great. I'm super happy I didn't do my nose. She's too angry. She's too angry? Yeah, she's always been angry. Do you think anger ages you? Yes. I think that soul have to show on the face. You know, it's really interesting, the old age, how actually it's beautiful, because you have the wisdom. And I never wanted to be 30 and 40. I suffered too much.

37:48I like the real old age. The only important, healthy old age, not sick old age. When you're healthy and old age, you enjoy every second, because you understand that life is a miracle. Yes. I want to ask you a bit about communism and how you think it has affected your work. Oh, my God, a lot. You know, thinking of where I come from, I think it's such a strange mixture of everything. But the communism, what is important about the communism, it was that they really believe that you have to give your private life and everything you have for the cause. Cause is more important than anything else. So that kind of determination and that the cause you can't doubt.

38:32And I am really lucky that very early I found my medium, which is performance and I never doubted so I never spent energy to look for something else this was it and I just continue and I continue now 55 years and finally performance became mainstream art so if I will just kind of die right now in this studio I hope not then I was thinking what I'm going to be remembered for the one number one that I really put my entire life to create platform the performance art it's mainstream art i also put incredible attention into my institute you know the long duration performance art how to teach them doing it because when you do something one hour two hours you still don't go to true self but if you do something one month two months 20 hours you can't pretend you can't act it's something else happen you actually show your true self, and you connect with the public.

39:26So the public grow, and you grow, and it's transcendental. So this is what I'm teaching with the Brahmach Method and everything else. And then I also invent something that re-performs, that all pieces of art, not just mine, but historical pieces, can be re-performed and give them new life, which many of my generation is against it, because they say I will never give my art to anybody. But I think it's selfish. I think you should really see how a young generation can perform your work. Like right now in this exhibition, I have very, very difficult pieces to perform, House with Ocean View. There are three women performing it, each of them, the wonderful artists of their own, Keira Aurelii, the British artist, Amanda Cogan, the Irish artist, and the Alke Luton, the Belgian artist.

40:11They have to be there 12 days with absolutely nothing but water on the platform day and night. It's not easy pieces to do. And for me, it would be so emotional to see them doing it because it looked like my life and my work living without me. And, you know, it's much better to see when your life is going to happen anyway when you're not. So it's really very transformative to see that work is living without you. You mentioned that transcendence and the truth of something becoming ever more potent and available the more time you spend with it. and there is this real spiritual bent to your work. And I know that you are a practitioner of yoga.

40:53You do yoga and you meditate. And I wonder if we could go back to the idea of purpose and life purpose. Do you believe that your life has a purpose? And if you do, have you fulfilled it? Once I went to Amazon to meet a shaman, very old lady, and she looked at me and she said, oh, you don't come from this planet. You come from another galaxy. Your DNA is galactic, and you're here on purpose in this planet. And I was so interested. Okay, you know, I believe in everything. So I say, okay, what's my purpose? And she said, your purpose is to teach how to transcend the pain to the humans. And then I really think this is not so bad.

41:37I'm always about elevating human spirit. That's my really main thing with work. You know, my work, you don't need to read about it. My work, you have to feel it. It's all emotional. You have to feel in your body. You have to feel in your guts. This is why the reaction in my work is so many people cry all the time. There is something there that it's energy, and energy is immaterial. It's not something that you have painting, you put the nail on the wall, you hang the painting, and that's there. This is so immaterial. It's time-based. You see it, you experience it, and it's all what you have, nothing else.

42:14on that note of being from another planet i was going to ask you about how you feel now that yugoslavia no longer exists and that you are stateless in in many respects but perhaps that fits you perfectly you know i always consider planet that you know as my studio and i love that kind of nomadic i think i'm true nomad really the most nomadic you never can see anybody than me. You know, I just, the moment when I left Yugoslavia, ex-Yugoslavia, I never stopped actually traveling. You know, I live with Aborigines, Central Australia, with two tribes one entire year. I have connection with Tibetan community more than 25 years.

42:55I went to study shamanism in South America. Everything interests me. But what interests me the most is ancient culture. They have so much knowledge about body and mind that we don't because we really fucked up us with the technology. We know how technology makes us invalids. We don't think about intuition. We don't think about the meanings of the dreams. We don't think about the telepathy. We just don't use any of this. But I do. Yes. I learn. You started painting your dreams, didn't you, when you were 14? That's how you started painting. And do you still have very vivid dreams? Yes. Do you still paint them?

43:32No, I don't. I don't paint. I just interpretate my dreams. My grandmother helped me a lot in this. We have gone through your first two failures. So the communist parade, the chess boards. And now we come to your third failure, which is making Positive Zero. It was a theatre piece, wasn't it? So Positive Zero, it was a very ambitious piece. This was the time in my collaboration with Ulay. And we actually put the first time these two different tribes, the Tibetan, the monks, and the Aborigine, the medicine people, medicine men, into actually theater piece. It was more like theater piece, but it was also inspired by tarot cards and so many other kind of esoteric ideas.

44:18And I think we never made theater piece before. And so we had the audience, we had the stage, and I remember the moment we started working and doing, because as we know, we are not rehearsing much. I understood this is the biggest bullshit I just am doing right now in the front of the public. Public is there. I can't stop because, you know, they pay the tickets to see us. And, oh, God, this was hell. I remember we went through this whole thing. I got sick. I got temperature during the peace already. And I really was physically sick. I knew it was not good. And it was such interesting, you know, I learned so much from that, that actually when you know something and you're really failing in the front of audience and you can't reverse it and can't change it, it really makes you physically sick.

45:08It was a big failure. Did other people think it was a failure? I don't care. This is the thing. You know, I know. You know, this is the very important point. If I don't give 150%, 100 % is not enough at all, 150 % of everything I do, then for me it's failure. Anybody can say whatever they want, I know is not good. This is what is for me important. But if I give this 150 % and I have the worst critic on the planet, I am fine because I know that I've done my best. But when I didn't, that's what really makes me think that I really have a big failure. And have you had any artistic failures since then where that experience has been replicated?

45:51Or does it teach you? It really teach me, yeah. Yeah. It really teach me. Because, you know, also with the performance art, it's really important that you accept also the unpredictable moment. So you're doing performance, electricity stop, somebody vomit, people interrupt the work, the earthquake, whatever is a part of the work. Because you give that period of time. This is acceptance that I learned. Tell me about Ulay. You met in the 1970s on your shared birthday. 75, yeah, 1975. What was it like when you met? When I met Ulay, we were both invited to do performance for the Dutch TV. And Dutch TV in those days, the performance art was such a, in 1975, there was only one gallery in the world called the Apple Gallery, who actually was dealing with performance art at that time.

46:46And they were making the TV program on this, and I was only one from East Block actually invited. So when I arrived in the gallery, I met Ulay. And when I met him, we had incredible attraction. He finished his part of his program, and I finished mine. And then all the crew, we had the dinner at the restaurant. And I said to them, I would like to everybody to offer the drink because it's my birthday. And he stand up and say, me also, it's my birthday. I said, I don't trust you. You know, prove it. And what he proved at that time, it was his notebook with a calendar with the 13th of November missing.

47:22It was a shock for me. I open my calendar, also 13 November is missing, because I hate my birthday, and he never liked his birthday. So the first thing when we get calendar, at least me, I return always my birthday day off. This was his proof and my proof. We almost immediately fall in love and stay for 12 years together, till we separate the Great Wall of China. I want to come back to that. Why do you hate your birthday? Oh, it's a long story. First of all, my mother was telling me that I'm born 29 of November. 29 of November is the day of Republic of ex-Yugoslavia. This was the day that every good children, when they're born 29 of November, go to Tito.

48:06Tito will sit on his lap and he will give them candies and presents. And every time they came this day, I was not invited. And my mother would always say, because you're not good. And because I was never good for her, there was never enough. And I was always incredibly sad. Till later on, I find that my birth was never 29. I was always 30. Was she lying to you? She lied to me. And then I just hated my birthday anyway. I'm so sorry. I got over this, don't worry. That sounds like a difficult upbringing. Have you forgiven her? Oh, I forgive her only after she died that I find her diaries. And if I read any page of this diary, even one page, my relation to her will be completely different.

48:54Because my mother emotionally in so many ways, she was a national hero, by the way, and she suffered so much. And I understood... She was a resistance hero, wasn't she? She was a member of the USA Partisans. Yes, from the Second World War hero. My father too, both heroes. So anyway, my mother, it was such a difficult relationship with my father who left and so on. And I think that one of the reasons that she never kissed me in my life, when I asked her why she never kissed me, she said, of course, not to spoil you. So I understood only when I read in the diaries that she really wanted me to make me warrior.

49:28She wanted to make me warrior. And actually, she succeeded. But I understood this when she died. Then I forgave to her. Ulay and you had this 12-year romantic and professional collaboration the likes of which we've rarely seen some of the work you produced was astonishing that I'm thinking particularly of that piece where you were holding a bow and he was holding the arrow and it was pointed at your yeah yes oh yes of course and he could any movement could have killed you and your work explored that sense of power and gender and it came to an end on the Great Wall of China and there is a longer story behind that which I would love you to tell me because that piece of art was eight years in the making wasn't it and at the beginning of those eight years you were still in love and we're supposed to marry on the Great Wall of China and then in the meantime everything started falling apart it was really complicated you know falling apart was just pretty much the kind of ordinary reasons.

50:31You know, we become this kind of power couple in art. We start showing in every museum in the world. We start selling out Polaroids. So we was not poor anymore because we lived just in the car, which was the happiest period anyway when it was penniless. So I think that all the pressure, he could not deal with that. And anyway, he became very unfaithful. And it was hurting. The last, actually, it all happened the last three years. I can say that definitely, you know, nine years we was happy. And then the three years on the end of our relationship, it was terrible because he went back to drinking that he didn't drink during our relationship.

51:09You know, I would go to gym and we would come back from the bar. It didn't really work. This is the failure I never talked about, but we can go back to that failure. I was so incredibly ashamed to say even to my best friends that our relationship don't work. So I was pretending that everything is fine. That was killing me because, you know, I was thinking working together is so much more powerful, producing two people, one work of art, which we call that self, not female, not male, but that kind of third energy. And that I was thinking this is forever. And I realized that actually work only for a certain period of time and doesn't work anymore.

51:50And it didn't work. And I could not admit. and for three years I could not admit till we really came to this point that the walk of China was a breaking point. And then we say we're going to separate and say goodbye. So it was eight years in the making because it took that long to get permissions from the Chinese government. Before we get to the actual walk, it's interesting to me that fidelity was important to you. There's a slight contradiction there because at the beginning we were talking about your need for freedom, but you've also said to me that rules are important. Introduction, instructions.

52:27Instruct, okay. So are rules important because within those rules you can have the freedom? Yes, because you have the, for every performance have to be strict rules that you absolutely have to follow. If I say to myself, I will sit three months in the museum every day, I'm going to do that no matter what. That is very important, the commitment. You know, otherwise too much freedom actually doesn't bring any result. Yes. Too much freedom is the opposite of liberation in many ways. So is that the same for your romantic relationship? Right. There needed to be commitment and rules so that within that you could have freedom and trust.

53:02But also in the relationship we had to trust. To me, the kind of trust was really important. So his infidelity was very hard for me. You walk from opposite ends of the Great Wall of China and you can watch this on YouTube and it is so moving. He's wearing blue, you're wearing red, and you meet in this central point after months and months of walking. How many kilometers was it? 2 ,500? 2 ,500 each. Okay. And you meet in the middle and what happens? I cry and cry and cry. And it was the moment that it's the end. We literally walk towards the end. An end of something which was beautiful and difficult and emotional and everything.

53:46You know, every relation of true love is always full of pain. That's no way out. Every separation, it was very hard for me. At that time when we split, I was exactly 40 years old. He was 43. It was the first time in my life that I stopped having relations with a man I love, but I also didn't have my work. This was the worst part. I could not go back to my work because for 12 years we signed work together, and everything we'd done was just one work. so I have to reinvent everything. I felt incredibly depressed, incredibly lonely and what I've done, I made a theater piece. I made a theater piece called The Biography Remix.

54:26The only way is to play my life in the front of audience and share that pain with the audience. And there is a moment when I say goodbye to Ula in that piece and he's sitting in the audience with his new wife, Chinese, at that time and I'm saying goodbye to him. This was the way how I could deal with the pain by staging it. in the front of audience. And in front of him. And that Chinese woman, his wife, was the translator, wasn't she? The translator that he got pregnant. And when we met, he said, what are you going to do? She's pregnant. I said, I don't give a shit what you can do. Whatever the fuck.

54:59Let me out of it. Sorry for the language. You know, I just wanted to go to start my new life. I love swearing. Never apologize for swearing. I go like, what then? You know, what I can do? This podcast, as I told you, was born out of heartbreak. I think heartbreak is such a specific kind of grief. It's a very difficult thing to go through. And a lot of people listening will potentially be dealing with that. What advice would you give them as someone who has endured the profound depths of heartbreak? Oh my God, I'm such an expert in heartbreak. Dr. Abramovich advice for you. Agony Aunt Abramovich.

55:38Dr. Abramovich has, you know, first of all, just cry. Cry. Cry is such a good healing thing. And, you know, and I had a heartbreak. It was impossible. My friends could not even talk to me about anything except about my problems. I was sick and tired talking myself about my problems. I was crying in the supermarket. I was crying in the taxis. I was crying on the street. I was, I just was like so, so, I could not eat. I could not sleep. All of this is only way to do it is have a grief and go through it. And then it comes really the moment that everything stops. And you could not even believe that he was in love with that kind of person in the first place or whoever it is.

56:21No, honestly, you have to let grief go through it. When you look back now, are you grateful for those years of collaboration with Ulay, both professional and personal? We made a great work together. I am happy with every moment. Also the bad moments. As we say, bad moments are important. You know, if you read history of art, you know that nobody make any work from happiness. My theory, the more fucked up childhood you have, the better artists you get because there's so much space and ideas to work with. The happiness is not productive. Happiness is a state that you don't want to change. You just be happy, it's wonderful.

57:02Nobody is against happiness. But when really difficult time comes, this is when you really change. This is when you really grow. This is what you really learn. Are you happy now? Right now, I'm really worried. Actually, I'm happy. Yes. You're worried about being happy. I have to say, first of all, I went through the really dead experience just in March. And, you know, getting life out of this and being sitting here in front of you and having this huge show that I have to run to install, by the way. I have to work soon. It's just incredible. I'm so grateful. 255 years never having a woman in this space.

57:43It's a huge responsibility. And I really like to do my best. And I'm making this wonderful tea party only for women. I read about this. And, you know, you're invited. Please come. Please can I come? And absolutely. We're going to have some men serving the tea, I think. Excellent. I want to have a transgender woman. I want to have the women in science, in technology, artists, young musicians, just a really nice group of women because Monday when I'm doing it, the museum is closed so I can have tea party and I can show the show to them and just spend some good time and celebrate that this space actually should be just the beginning of the great women artists who should be there in the first place.

58:27A wonderful note to end on, and it brings me to my final question, which is about gender. A lot of what we've been talking about is to do with the body and also to do with transcendence. And we mentioned your collaboration with Ulay and the fact that you were this third state, almost this third energy. How do you feel about being a woman? What does that mean to you, if anything? You know, that's so complicated in my case, because in so many ways I said that I'm not feminist. because I have such a strong mother. You know, I was rebelling her all the time. Not the man, but the mother. But it's a very different period I come from.

59:05I say I always believe that art doesn't have gender. It doesn't matter who is making it. It's just two categories, good art, bad art. That's it. But I feel very much female as a woman. And to me, I always feel that we have this incredible power because we can conceive life in our bodies. It doesn't matter if we do it or not, but just that incredible power that we have. And we give this power voluntary to the man. I don't know, from the centuries, I have no idea why, but definitely we are the ones who have the power. We always did. We only have to realize and start really being conscious of that.

59:45Marina Abramovich, I feel not only honored that you have come on my podcast in person, But I feel honoured to live in a time when you are creating art and teaching us all what it is to be human. Thank you so, so much on behalf of me, but also on behalf of everyone whose souls you have touched. You are an amazing person and I have loved this conversation. Thank you. It was a pleasure talking to you.

1:00:21If you enjoyed this episode of How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, I would so appreciate it if you could rate, review and subscribe. Apparently, it helps other people know that we exist.