Sabrina Dhowre Elba… I thought ‘this is how I’m going to die’

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1:12hello and welcome to how to fail with me elizabeth day on my podcast i discuss my guests failures each week seeking to understand what obstacles people have overcome and what if anything they've learned along the way because ultimately our failures are lessons that help us understand success better. And before we get into my interview with the fabulous Sabrina Elba, I am so thrilled and delighted to tell you that you can join us afterwards at Failing With Friends, my subscriber series, where we continue our conversation. Every week, I'll be going through your failures or questions with my brilliant guest.

1:51This week, Sabrina and I go through failures from building confidence to holding onto grudges. Hit me. I mean, I am a Scorpio. Look forward to you joining us. And I'd love to hear from you. If you'd like to get in touch, follow the link in the podcast notes. A few years ago, I found myself at the GQ Men of the Year Awards. The most dazzling person I watched on stage that night was not, in fact, a man, but it was Sabrina Dore Elba, who co-hosted the evening with her husband Idris. She was funny, smart, and yes, clearly gorgeous. Since then, she's established herself as a CEO, entrepreneur, model and activist.

2:35A prolific multi-hyphenate, she's also a UN Goodwill Ambassador and the founder of the genderless skincare line, Sable Labs. Elba grew up in Canada and her family is of Somali descent. Her mother raised five children by herself and would later encourage her daughter to use her platform to champion gender equality in rural communities. In 2017, a chance meeting with an actor in a bar changed the course of Elba's life. Later, Mr Sabrina Elba would say it was love at first sight. But like most women, Sabrina Elba is much more than simply one half of a marriage. As she said in a recent interview, it's so easy to strip a woman of her identity and attach it to a man.

3:26People assume things about you and they love putting women into boxes. Sabrina Elba, welcome to How to Fail. Thank you so much and thank you for having me. It's so, so nice to be here. It is a joy to have you here and I genuinely meant that about the GQ Men of the Year Awards. I know I sound a bit creepy. You know that was my first ever hosting thing. I was so nervous. So for anyone to say that I did any good. I'm thankful. That was quite intimidating. It was an intimidating room. That's amazing. So tell me about what boxes you have been put in as a woman in the past. Which are the boxes that really rile you?

4:03Oh, gosh. I mean, we've probably all been through this, haven't we, as women? I think what frustrates me as of recent, particularly when it comes to the business world, is this sort of, oh, well, Idris is running it and you're, you know, what are you? Are you the face or are you the model or the, and it's this type of, I don't know, an assumption. I mean, we can call an assumption a box, right? That I haven't put in the same amount of effort or ideated in the same way or contribute in the same way. And I find that ever so frustrating because I've worked really hard to find my footing in entrepreneurship.

4:35And I'm quite proud of that. And I think Idris was a huge inspiration for me in that sense, being like ridiculous entrepreneur. I mean, he'll start something every week if you could. I think also because I love fashion and I love beauty and that world, because to me, I'm not a creative person, but I find my creativity perhaps lies in that place. I find it also frustrating that people think, oh, well, you do fashion. What are you doing speaking at the governing council at the UN? As if those two things can't go together. You know, I want to be able to be who I am, truly who I am, like the things I like, and still be able to speak in the room and command respect and attention as we all should when we're speaking.

5:12Those are two boxes that particularly annoy me. But I'm finding that I'm not letting them annoy me as much as they did, because I think that's more of a them problem than it is a me problem. And it took me a little while to understand that. A hundred percent. But how do you cope with it then? So I think just understanding that and just remembering that it is so much more about how someone perceives and sees life and sees women than about how you display yourself. And it took me a minute to kind of fully understand that because I thought, what am I doing wrong? am I am I should I dress a different way should I speak more clearly and and then you know my friends Idris everyone was like well maybe they just don't understand what the hell they're talking about and I was like yeah probably not so it really is just flipping your way of thinking and surrounding yourself with people who support you and remind you to be confident in who you are how old were you when you met Idris I was 27 so were people putting you in boxes before that as well, do you think?

6:07Yeah, I think a bit. So I was a philosophy major in uni. The only girl in my class, it's not a female heavy major, which is weird because we love questioning everything. Like it's perfectly suited, right? And I remember near the end of my university course, I'd done pageant for Miss Vancouver, which is so embarrassing to think of now. And I just remember my classmates just like making me feel so, I just like, oh, well, that's weird. It became like this kind of boys club that I felt like I could never get into. And I thought, look, I just want to explore all sides of myself. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

6:41And it became this instant feeling of like, oh, I guess I can't be that and this. I allowed that to bother me, if I'm really honest, quite heavily, you know, when I was about 24, 25. So looking back now, I just kind of want to stand up, walk over to them and be like, you don't know what you're talking about. But back then, you know, it takes a while as a woman to find your confidence. And I would say I was particularly shy growing up. I'm one of five siblings. It's a very loud house, but I was also like my mom's like second in command. So I was like, the one who's quietly doing everything around the house and my siblings were so loud and I felt like they were just like my kids taking full advantage of me.

7:20So were you the oldest? No, I was second oldest, but my older sister, because she'd found a boyfriend really early on, kind of left the coop earlier. and I was left with my three younger siblings who are so robust and loud and confident. And maybe that actually helped me kind of become who I am today. But that went away eventually. And I wouldn't say I'm a shy person now, but looking back, I really was. I think it's also being tall. Yes. When did you have your growth spurt? Or were you always tall? I think when I was like nine. Yeah, I had mine at 14, so it wasn't as bad. I was always, I mean, my dad was really tall and I'm always the tallest person in my friends.

7:57I think tall people attract shorter people. I was literally talking about this just this morning with producer Hannah, who is also tall. Right. Yeah. And when we see other tall people, we're like, where have you been my whole life? Why do I have no tall friends? But it kind of made me like kind of shy down, like a little bit like tall poppy syndrome. You're kind of like, oh, I don't want to be the most noticeable person in the room. I was the only black girl in my high school as well. So it was kind of like, so I would just like kind of shy down. And now I feel like, hey, look at me. I want to know more about your mom who sounds incredible Mariam yes how much of an influence has she been on you a massive influence so much so that I didn't want to admit it early on even in my business I mean the way I carry myself I mean if my mom was in this room she would just take all the attention out of the room she's so strong and confident she's been through so much in her life I mean I remind her sometimes mom you didn't have shoes till you were eight years old.

8:54Like she was a proper rural kid growing up in Somalia. One of seven siblings, like did everything around the house. And now you look at her and she's just like dressed in designer and like, you know, like just bossing every situation in every room she goes into. I remember thinking early on, it was quite embarrassing when someone would give her a compliment and she'd be like, thank you. I know. And then appreciating that later on in life. And I'm like, good for you because she's gone through so many things in her life in an abusive marriage with my stepdad and, you know, I mean, just even her journey coming to Canada with my dad, like, I mean, she could write novels on what she'd been through and to have that confidence still and to be willing to speak up for whatever she's engaged about in the moment or wanting to speak up for.

9:38I just find that fascinating. And actually, a lot of the philanthropic work I do is also inspired by her because she wanted to give back so bad. I mean, she left Somalia just before the Civil War. so she left with her siblings and everyone in a happy place right gets to canada the only one of her family and everything falls apart and it was this feeling she describes is i need to go back i need to help like feeling so helpless being so far away and she committed to that she went back so often that sometimes i was like am i my aunt's kid because she eventually brought all my family over we raise children as a village somali communities right so i was at my aunt's was my uncles and my mom go back.

10:17And she still today has this foundation, the Hoy Amadien Foundation. She doesn't even have a website. She doesn't even, she takes her own funds, goes to Somalia, wherever there's a will, collects water, brings it to villages, like just for no merit, for no credit. And she's just a fascinating person. And I think I could get emotional if I keep speaking about her. Like she's someone who's been a positive influence in my life. I know. I wondered when I said that in the introduction about her raising five children by herself, whether that You felt that was an accurate reflection because of what you've just mentioned there about raising children as a village.

10:50But it must have been isolating for her in Canada. So she initially was all right in Toronto, where the majority of my family was. When she'd moved to Vancouver to get away from my stepdad, she was alone again. Yeah, I mean, we lived through it together and I do genuinely feel sorry for her. But seeing her fight through it, I think it did kind of shape us and shape her a bit. and when we did get away she was alone again and had five children and was pregnant actually when we moved so my youngest brother was born in Vancouver and she just lived through it she figured it out she worked four jobs she you know I mean she was cleaning the school at one point like she was just whatever she could do and kind of sacrificed a bit of where she intended to go in life and her dreams because now she has all these children and you know she kind of had to just make do and do whatever she could.

11:39So I knew I had to do well in life because I didn't want her to think that sacrifice was for nothing. So I made sure I had an education, had a job and had ambitions and dreams almost to satisfy her in a way. And now I say, and I've said before in an interview, I realize even through the goodwill work that I do, a lot of that is about making the world a better place for the kid that my mom was. And as someone who went through an abusive relationship, I work with a domestic abuse charity and someone who grew up in a rural environment. My EFAD work is with people in agricultural sectors, right? So it just kind of all shaped together.

12:14And I hadn't realized that until later on in life. It was like this subconscious thing that kept me going. So I have to thank her for almost everything, really. Sounds so cheesy. No, it's profound. And do you think, does she say that she's proud of you? oh she does she does um we did this podcast coupled um the team had gotten her to do a bit of recording in Canada uh because to look at the mother-daughter relationship and I didn't know what she was going to say and I remember hearing the footage I always say I love you but she'd be like I know you do of course like how she spoke about me in that little snippet like I mean I listen to it all the time don't tell her that oh that's so lovely look at me getting emotional I've only been here about 10 minutes.

12:56I'm sorry, I have this effect. That's so beautiful. So what does Mariam think when you say, I met this guy at a bar, he's an actor, I think I'm not going to go to law school. Oh my god, I've actually got a funny story for you. And it is so weird. So my mom had gone back to school about the time that I'd met Idris. So she wanted to get better at writing and English, and she'd taken some courses. And one of the projects that she had done was to pick someone in the public eye and write a piece on them. No. I know where this... No. This is at the cusp that we had just met. I had no idea that she had just done this project, okay?

13:37Okay. She hangs it on our fridge because she gets like an A plus. And it is like so, so sweet, right? Because she's like, I used to hang your guys' stuff up. I'm hanging my stuff. And it is an essay on a dress. Oh my goodness. So funny. And we'd been like a month and a half in at this point. But then an even crazier thing happened. I hadn't intended for them to meet so quickly initially because it's quite a big deal to bring someone home to a Somali family. It's marriage first. Dating isn't really a thing. You got to know. And when you know, it's like, all right, let's do it. So I went to pick her up.

14:11And on the way home, I realized I'd had one of Idris's belongings. I can't remember what it was. I think it was like a notebook that he had had at the time. So I stopped off at his trailer and I said, Mom, I just have to drop something off to a friend. so I go this way he goes this way my mom having just written a piece on him of course instantly recognizes him and gets out of the car she's like hi and he's like hi and she's like oh I just wrote a piece on you and then she sees me come back around notified and she's like what it's like you're here for him and Idris doesn't know that that's your mom no but he said she looks so much like me that he just was like, oh shit.

14:49Looking back, I mean, I was mortified. I was just like, what do I even do? I was like, well, mom, this is my friend. She goes, this is your friend. Yeah, this is my new friend. It's like, uh-huh. We get back in the car. It was almost a silent journey on the way home. We giggled at the beginning of it. I could just see her like thinking yeah so that's why you weren't home okay so that's what you've been doing for the last okay oh okay oh like just like going through it right in front of me and I was just like laughing like it was so funny and and great now because it saved the awkwardness right like yes it just happened you didn't have to plan it or anything that's hilarious and having written an essay about him obviously she knew that he was a good prospect what are the chances she picks him of all people It's like she manifested it.

15:40Yeah. And it's funny because she knew more who he was than I did because she'd just done this whole background research, but she'd watched the Mandela film. And it really inspired her to write this piece. And it's so funny now. And I still tease her about it. I'm like, well, you know him more than I do. So that's amazing. So I'm guessing they get on very well. They do. Yeah, they do. Idris is good with everyone. I know. I'm so thankful because I have such a close knit group of friends. and like he's the guy that's like just in the friend group and like he's so good he's good egg it's so lovely to hear someone talk so highly about their romantic partner and you should get the opposite no well i'm just trying to think you should hear me on sunday it's funny because i speak like that about my husband right and i think obviously he's a great person but i think for both of us it's a second marriage and so there's an element of like we're so grateful to have found each other but that's kind of beautiful it is beautiful yeah it is and we met on an app and actually that was sort of really romantic in a way i hadn't anticipated because we were both intentional about what we wanted and that's very cute you two talk a lot about being a couple on coupledom right which is your hit podcast and you've interviewed some amazing people chris jenner ben and jerry of ben jerry's ice cream love them i know and i just wanted episode what do you think are the top insights, the top sort of three insights that you've got from interviewing other couples about how to be a couple yourself?

17:06You know, we learned really good things on that episode, but a friend said something even more interesting to me, like literally as I was just on holiday and she happened to be there. And I was like, what's the secret? Because you guys have been married forever. She's someone who'd been in a long relationship. And she said, not wanting to leave each other at the same time. Yes. Helpful. I hadn't quite thought of that It was so funny the way she just blurted it out I was like, that is a very good point It's about supporting each other when you're at your lowest, right? And everything that's frustrating in the world comes out at your partner and you think that it's the time and it's like, it's you and reminding them that no, this isn't a relationship and being for them through that which is so hard to do when you have an ego especially, right?

17:52For anyone, it's extremely hard to do but I realize that that's actually a very good point It is so important to connect with people, just to even hear an experience you've never heard so that you can question yours. It's so important. And yeah, I think, you know, kudos to what you do because it's an important job. Thank you. Well, I could not agree more about the power of connection. And before we get on to your failures, your lessons, you mentioned in passing that you were the only black person in your high school. Yeah. What was that like? It was kind of like you don't know you're in it until someone tells you you're in it.

18:25Yeah. And there'd been moments where someone had mentioned, I'd be like, oh, right. Oh, yeah. And also, like, it shaped my views of wellness and beauty in a bit where I was always trying to, I didn't have the right representation around me at the time that I was trying to conform to something else. And, you know, look a particular way to a standard that wasn't necessarily set by myself. So in some ways, it was frustrating. But in other ways, I mean, it was such a diverse group of people. I was the only black person, but it's not like it was a majority other. me and my friends literally look like the UN.

18:56Like we are so diverse and I love that too.

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20:47Okay, let's get on to your failures. Your first one is your failure to work a nine to five. Did you try to work a nine to five? It's all I ever wanted. Really? Yeah. And then I say it as a failure because it can sound like maybe I'm saying it from a privileged, I would be thankful to have any job. It's more from a place of where I thought my life was going to go. You know, I'd done philosophy to do law. I mean, I took my LSAT. I had applied at the cusp that I had met Idris, and I was so set on what my life was going to be, and I wanted to do corporate law. And everything changed. I ended up in PR, randomly, PR for charities, non-profits, and I couldn't do it.

21:24I couldn't sit in an office. And I was like, who am I? I'm not the person that I thought that I was. I was like, I'm not ready. I want to explore more sides of myself. And how privileged I was to be able to do that, right? I got to travel and shape my life in a way where I had more ownership of my time and what I got to do. And that's why when people tell me, oh, I've been thinking about starting a business, I'm like, do it. Even if you fail to just go on that journey to see if you can kind of shape your own trajectory in that sense. I loved it. And I love it now so much. And I'm so thankful that my life had changed, but I see it as this failure because there was so much expectation that I'd set on myself that for a while it took me kind of into a hole.

22:05I'd gotten a bit depressed about it because I'd felt that I'd failed myself. And actually, I was just failing a version of myself. So how old were you when this felt like a failure? 28, 29. Yeah. Because I often say that failure is what happens when life doesn't go according to plan. And then you have to question the plan and where the plan came from. Because very often we're socially conditioned into believing work should look a certain way or a woman's life should look a certain way by a certain age. and actually that's often not authentically us it's something that other people or society has told us we should want and I think that's so profound what what you just said there about inhabiting that liminal space where you felt lost but actually it was your own expectation or someone else's expectation that you'd inherited that's what was making you feel confused and it makes you wonder was it my own expectation or was it an influence of the world around me because to be so uncomfortable in something I thought was going to be right for me.

23:03It makes you think, well, why did I think it was going to be right for me? You know? You mentioned before that everything changed. Yeah. At what point did you realize that everything had changed and that this man your mum had written an essay about was worth changing your life for? I think the day I landed in London, I think, before even I had left that job. And I started it off in a high rise in Shoreditch. I was looking down my window and there were so many people. I mean, Vancouver instantly felt like a village. I'd never been to Europe before. So just as I'd moved, I did like three days in Paris with my girlfriend because we'd always wanted to see Paris and then did the move and it just picked me up from the station.

23:46And I'm like, okay, I'm here. I'm in London. And I just remember looking down and thinking, oh my God, this is intimidating. And I'd moved before when I was younger. I'd moved to Montreal. I was born in Montreal so I wanted to go back at one point but this that London just felt so different and also all of a sudden there was so many black people it's like and so many Somalis I hadn't grown up around either so it felt like this new diverse big city and then I felt really lonely yeah like really lonely I left my siblings my mom all my best friends I mean we were like a group of 15 girls that were so tight-knit like I mean going through elementary to high school to uni together right um I actually came on this visa which is a great visa I recommend to anyone if you are part of a commonwealth country you can go to another commonwealth country before you're 35 and work for two years and then keep renewing as you like so I was it's a little safety blanket um and I was okay I can go back but I remember just being so intimidated and feeling so lonely so you had met Idris maybe a year before or months yeah yeah actually only seven months before that I mean, it's very brave to take that leap of faith.

24:53For like a small town girl. Yes. Yeah. And were you living together when you arrived? Or that high rise and shored it, you were on your own? I was on my own. Yeah. And we were kind of like doing the basically living together. And also because he has a son and I met his son yet, it would have been inappropriate to move in right away. We were so certain about each other that it felt like it all made sense. As much as people in my life were like, what are you doing? You barely know this person. But I mean, he says it was love at first. I completely agree. I'd never met someone I just understood so immediately and was like, you get me.

25:28How do we just get each other? I almost think we were together in a previous life. I sound like the worst romance book when I talk about Idris. I just love him to bits. And he made me feel very safe and secure that I thought, I can do this. I want to come. I want to be with you. And it wasn't even just like, I moved to London and we'll date. It was like, no, we'll move so we can be together. That kind of security and safety did make me feel confident enough to kind of pack up, leave my life. I just applied to law school and go and take a chance. And I'm thankful that I did because he really is like the best thing.

26:03When you say that you had that period of feeling alone, not without Idris, but like alone in your job and your identity in a way, How low did you get? I got very low. I got really low. There was days that I would just sort of like walk around and cry. And it's funny because you can be so happy in one side of your life. I was so happy in love, but so sad otherwise. And it was this weird juxtaposition where I'd see him and I'd instantly light up. But then kind of a dangerous position to be in because the minute he left, had to go to work, had to do something. I was so sad. And I didn't want my happiness to be dependent on someone.

26:43right like I mean nobody wants to feel like that and I made do by calling my family my family came to visit my friends came to visit but it just it did it was like this hole I had to fill and I think actually a lot of my work ethic and ambition kind of came from I'd gone from the most independent person you know with a mom who's very independent to feeling like I was dependent on someone else for something it made me like stand straight up and go I've got to figure out yeah what's happening for me and where I'm going in my life so I could reclaim that feeling of independence. And it's not to say anything negative on his part.