Sadiq Khan - ‘Had I known what it involved, I can’t say I’d have gone into politics’

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0:25Welcome to How to Fail, the podcast that flips the traditional interview format on its head and asks its guests what they learned from the moments that things went wrong. and what that taught them about success. Before we get to today's episode with Sadiq Khan, just a reminder that you can join me for more how to fail in our subscriber series, Failing With Friends. Every week, I get some extra time with my guests to answer your failures and questions. And it really is such a special atmosphere because I find that you see a different side to our guests because the focus is taken off them and put squarely on you.

1:04And very often, they're incredibly surprised at how much advice they actually have to give. This week, you'll hear more from today's guest, Sadiq Khan. One of my favourite politicians, he's a former US president. And the reason why I love him is he failed to be the mayor. And so the consolation prize was US President Theodore Roosevelt. He came third, by the way, in being the mayor. But he's got this lovely phrase, which is daring to fail. And we'd love to hear from you. Follow the link in the podcast notes to share your failures or questions. Sadiq Khan's life thus far has been characterised by defying the odds.

1:42He was one of eight children born to Pakistani immigrants, his mother a seamstress, his father a bus driver. He was raised on a council estate in South London, went to the local comprehensive and shared a bunk bed with his brother until he left home in his 20s, when, inspired by both the teacher's suggestion and the TV series LA Law, he went to study law at the University of North London. Khan was a human rights solicitor for over a decade before entering the House of Commons as the Labour MP for Tooting. Then, in 2016, Khan beat the bookies' favourites to be elected Mayor of London with a whopping 57 % of the vote.

2:24He became London's first Muslim mayor and was re-elected in 2021 and again this year. At 53, this also makes him the first London mayor to win a third term, although he actually says he wants six. Depending on who you ask, Khan is either fiercely bright, persuasive, cheeky, and impossible not to listen to, or if you're inclined to believe Donald Trump, a stone-cold loser. The two had a war of Twitter words in 2019. But it is perhaps the mark of the man that most people, even his political opponents, have largely positive things to say. It's far better to be loved than loathed, Khan says. One of the things I always say to my team is you can be nice and get to the top.

3:15There's no excuse for bullying. There really isn't. Sadiq Khan, Mr. Mayor welcome to How to Fail can I book you now to do my eulogy I'm hoping it's not too soon but that's very generous to you, thank you, it's very sweet, thank you so you mentioned in your intro that I've got my parents had eight children and by the way, thank you for mentioning my mum first usually it's my dad and the bus driver, for obvious reasons I mention it all the time during the campaign, my first mayoral campaign was against Zach Goldsmith who, you know had a different upbringing to mine, so I'd mention often my dad and I always felt guilty for not mentioning as much my mum but you mentioned her first which is noteworthy because I've got two daughters now so it's quite important to me in relation to women and their achievements for me it's fantastic.

3:58Is it really true that you want six terms? And I want to carry on you know as long as you know Londoners want to lend me their vote and give me their trust being the best mirror can be. How competitive are you on a scale of one to ten? There's eight children in my family I've got three older brothers one older sister three younger brothers and in the Khan household if you're going to be heard you have to speak fast Yeah, I am. I'm also very competitive. Part of it for me, I think, comes from not feeling like I belonged. Is there part of you that feels the same quest? To belong or in some way to be quote unquote accepted?

4:33Does that drive you? Yeah, it's not so much the accepted, but I'm an outsider. Generally for six months when I was a baby lawyer, I started speaking posh because I thought that's how you fit in. And so I can see the outsider parallel, but it's not because I'd approve myself or be the establishment. You just don't want to think that somebody else is better than you. And that's really important because actually they're not as good as you think they were. And you're just as good. going to cabinet, or once I started being the mayor, you realize actually there's almost this trick where people who are successful try and give the impression it's really hard, it's very difficult, because they want to keep all the goodies to themselves.

5:13And it's proven to myself, and more importantly, others, that listen, if I can do it, you can do it. It's not that hard. And that may be what drives me. Why do you want to do what you do then? So my grandparents were migrants. My parents were migrants from Pakistan, as it was then to London. I'm the first in three generations of can'ts who will not be a migrant. I'm staying in London, born here, raised here, or stay here. And that's because I've seen the benefits to my family of you work hard, you can achieve anything. You can sort of pompously say, you know, giving back or public service, but it's simply just, you know, trying to help others get the help that my family and I receive.

5:53And that's one of the joys of this great city. And so I want others to also benefit. You mentioned your parents and you mentioned that your father was a bus driver. You made an amazing joke about that because you often self-deprecatingly refer to the fact that you spoke a lot about your dad on the campaign trail but then you've realised that Sajid Javid and Saeed Awasi both have fathers who are bus drivers and you said something like you know you wait for years for... You wait for ages for a politician who's a child of a bus driver. They're three come on at the same time. That's so good. That value of hard work is embedded in what you experienced as a child.

6:33What do you think is the most important thing your parents taught you about work? By the way, I'm very proud that my dad drove a bus for more than 25 years. He worked all the hours God sends. He'd offer to do overtime to make sure he had the remuneration to support his family. My mum raised eight kids and was also, I can picture the machine in the corner her make enclosed piecemeal you get 50p address and that embeds in your work ethic because if you're raised seeing people you love working all the hour god sends then there's a responsibility for you to do the same and so when i hear people criticizing migrants or immigrants say i sort of pause and say i've never met an immigrant who wants to come here and sit in their bum or claim benefits the whole point of traveling one two three four five thousand miles is because you've got to drive you know you your role models people around you doing stuff and you want to emulate them what's it like living in a three-bedroom council flat one of eight siblings what are meal times like you know it's only it's only when i was about 13 14 i went to one of my mates homes and realized he had his own bedroom he had a desk in his room he could do his homework really easily whereas you know literally we had no we had no desks in our home we would do homework on the floor you know the carpet you know i don't want you know any little any violins out because i had a great childhood we were very close as a family we're a decent community it's only on hearts that you realize the school i went to great school was actually had a bad reputation was known as being you know fight school before i get onto your failures your maiden speech in the house of Commons referred to your father and what he taught you from the Quran.

8:19And so it also referred to your faith. And I wanted to ask you about that, but also how it felt because he never lived to see you becoming an MP. My dad had eight children, and I'm sure he loved us all equally, but in different ways. I think he would have got a real kick out of the fact that the city he chose to called home, voted for one of his children to be the mayor. It had been quite special to him. And my dad was very religious, as indeed my mum is, as we try to be. But it's important to me in my maiden speech to mention something about my religion, because at the time it was a lot of conversations in relation to religion, faith, identity, and so forth.

8:58And so the Hadith, Hadith is an Arabic word that means sayings of the prophet. So we believe the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him is the last messenger of God. We believe in Jesus and Moses and Abraham." So I quoted in my maiden speech a saying, a hadith of the prophet. And the saying is basically, I'm paraphrasing from the Arabic to the English, but if you see an injustice or you see something wrong, try and stop it. I think it was important for me to, I also managed to crowbar my daughter's names into my maiden speech as well. Because people don't realize this, but whenever you speak in the House of Commons, it's published in a thing called Hansard.

9:33And so forever, there's a record of what he said. So I was keen to get my daughter's names in the House of Commons. I mentioned my daughter's names in my maiden speech and also this hadith from the Prophet Muhammad. Did your wife get a mention? I'm sure she did. Otherwise, I wouldn't still be married. Okay, fine. Just joking. And Sadi, if you didn't, this podcast is far more important than Hansard. Thank you. Your first failure is your failure to get picked for Surrey County Cricket Club as a teenager. When you asked me very kindly to be on your podcast, I was reflecting on my three failures. And reflecting actually on this failure, I realised that subconsciously it had a profound impact on me.

10:13It changed the way I think about things. I was pretty good at cricket when I was younger. I used to play when I was a boy. So from eight, I'd play on Saturday and Sunday and twice during the week. I was, I say this with humility, I'm 53 now so I can say this stuff I was a very very good batsman I was a good bowler not a brilliant bowler so Surrey County Cricket Club which is think of if you're into football think of Premier League team it's a cricket Premier League team basically and so I had trials with them and I wasn't successful and I assumed I wasn't good enough and that's fine but I was so depressed and devastated I didn't play cricket that year again.

10:57I didn't pick up a bat that year or indeed the next year or indeed the year after because I thought I was good enough, but they thought I wasn't good enough. So I wasn't good enough. And I fell out of love with cricket. I didn't play for a long time. I look at who got in. They're public school boys. Fair enough. I wasn't a public school boy. They had the right kit. They had a coach present. And they made sure they did the thing they were good at first. So batting. So I did both because I was an all-rounder. what I should have done was not bowl just bat and there are other things I should have done take my teacher along get the right kit so forth and what I realized subconsciously about three or four years later I think because I was too I just didn't care in the first couple of years I didn't play cricket anymore is I twigged that the way to get what I want and it's not by the way being Machiavellian or being ruthlessly ambitious just recognizing the way things are it's understand the rules of the game.

11:52If you want to get an interview with this firm that you love and adore, want to work for them, make sure application is a certain way to be invited for an interview. Once you've got the interview, you've got to recognize what things they might be looking for, how, you know what I mean? And so I realized actually only the last few weeks that that failure taught me more than all the other things I did later on because I realized now, you know, running to be a member of parliament, wanting to be in the cabinet. It's understanding what you need to do to get what you want. And if I was 15 years old again, again, for this thesis to work, you've got to assume I'm good enough in terms of talent.

12:32And had I known six weeks later what I knew three years later, I'd reapplied to Surrey Country Club six months later and try it again. I never shared with anybody how upset I was. I just said, I don't fancy playing. So I didn't tell my dad. I didn't tell Mr. May, my teacher at school. I didn't tell my brothers. And this is the first time I actually talked properly about what I learned from that. I mean, I was asked about it a couple of years ago when I went to Lords and I mentioned it briefly then that started me thinking about why, because somebody asked me, why don't you try again? and I just and I reflected on that and I was just I was just gutted and you know I was devastated and it was too late by the time I realized what I should have done or what I could do to get in and I you know I love cricket and I basically gave up on it what kit did you turn up in really good question so to play cricket again apologies Elizabeth but you did you did I am an ignoramus so you gotta wear whites so you're in white trousers even white socks uh white shirt white jumper and your own pads you wear pads to protect yourself when you're batting obviously a box thigh guard gloves but when you go play for a club they always have the team kit and i'd always play with the team kicks i didn't have my own pads and stuff and so i'd borrow pads that were too big and you know the thigh guard i'd wore outside my trousers inside my trousers because i didn't think how you look your appearance matters when i went there i asked if i could to borrow a bat, which is bat form.

14:06You don't borrow somebody else's bat. And so, again, I was 15. What did I know about? Because when I played for the school team, we shared kit. When I played for the club, we shared kit. Or I'd borrow my brother's bat. And so, you got looked apart in cricket. It does matter because it matters even more now. The England squad is full of, I'm afraid, public school crickets because they got all the kit, they got the facilities, they get better and better and better. And so, appearance does matter. Hearing you talk about this, what I feel so keenly is that sense of rejection and the rejection from a they, a committee almost who had rigged the rules of the game against someone like you.

14:51I don't think it was rigged. No, no, but I don't mean like deliberately. I mean sort of institutionally, culturally over many, many centuries. And I wonder how much of your motivation politically is to ensure that that game, talking sort of broad landscape, is no longer rigged. Oh, without a doubt. Without a doubt. So, you know, I use the privilege of the position I have to invest in a huge amount in sports and, you know, making sure people have the right kit, but also making sure the coaches understand that actually natural talent shouldn't be affected by how people look and stuff and spot on and you know cricket is quite it still is i'm afraid quite quite an elitist sport and that's why initially you see and i thought about this recently because of you know preparing for this why did i start being posh when i first became a trainee lawyer because i wanting to fit in right and i realized actually one of my usps was just being an ordinary londoner and i actually what i should do is try and continue being authentically myself rather than trying to fit in and i think i tried to fit in because of my surrey experience right because you have the right gear you know nobody's going to you know you know give you new cases or award you a county cap if you're a maverick or you know and so this fitting in stuff is it's a double-edged sword because you've got to obviously try to make sure you don't scare people but yeah but I thought it's odd this and same when I went to parliament when I became an MP 2005 my best mates when I was newly elected were you know Dawn Butler black MP from from Brent Emily Thornberry a former lawyer from Islington but I really liked other MPs as well but you know who were former special advisors and so forth.

16:35And so there's this, this, you know, I've got two paths. One is this path to be a special advisor path and be that sort of person or two is be myself. And I think I've hopefully fused both to try and carve out my own niche.

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17:59for. Going back to you as a teenager, you mentioned your school and it had this particular reputation as the Ernest Bevan School. You were known as Bevan Boys because it's so bad you behave. You grew up in the 80s at a time when the National Front was still so evident in this country. Your experiences of early racism, how do you think that has informed your outlook if you've been at the receiving end of racism or if you've like if you've been in the receiving end of any form of hatred to do with attributes you can't control it could be your gender it could be your your race could be your your religion your sex or your sexuality it's really difficult to explain to those that haven't experienced it how it feels you know in those days the p word if you're of asian origin the n word if you are black the y word if you're jewish you know if they were used you you need there's going to be a fight because it's unacceptable to use sort of language and stuff and the great thing was i grew up with you know white friends black friends asian friends there's a sense of allyship and so even though if one of my friends was called the n-word you know because he's black we'd all jump in and get involved in the fight as well because you know he's your mate so even though you could say yeah but he's not saying anything bad against you no no no that's unacceptable and stuff and so it was really important to stand up for yourself because you know my my parents generation had endured a lot of racism my dad would regularly come back home after being racially abused he'd often one or two occasions been you know physically abused because of his race and on the bus on the bus driving the buses and stuff and by the one of the reasons why i love trade unions is because his trade union really helped him when he was the victim of racial abuse on the buses and stuff and so that generation first generation migrants endured a lot because they do because they're so grateful to be here and stuff right and they don't want to they don't want to um be a new sense they don't want to you know rock the boat and they will accept stuff because they think they're temporarily and so they should be careful whereas if you're born and raised here this is your country man this is you you will not tolerate and accept that sort of stuff and so it did affect us a lot and you know but again i didn't know any different you know i didn't realize that you know i don't well i must have realized but i didn't really sink in.

20:11That this was not part and parcel of other people's lives, being the receiver of the racism, being treated differently and so forth. London, by the way, has made huge progress during my lifetime. When my dad first arrived, there were signs in guest houses, B &Bs, pubs saying, no blacks, no Irish, no dogs. By no blacks, I meant anybody who wasn't white, no blacks, no Irish, no dogs. Within one generation, we've gone from that to his son being the mayor of London. When you speak, you speak with such eloquence, but also such awareness of your privilege. And you use words like blessed and being humble, and it comes across loud and clear.

20:48What doesn't come across is anger. But I wonder if there was a stage in your life where you did feel angry. Absolutely. I get angry now. So, you know, when you see racism, it makes me angry. And when I see racism, it makes me angry. And, And I was an angry young man, angry at the police for unnecessarily stopping and searching us, angry at racists, angry because I couldn't go to watch a full match. My brothers were Chelsea fans, supported Chelsea, went to Stamford Bridge and were chased away literally by the National Front at the Shed, which is part of Chelsea. I went to Wimbledon to watch Wimbledon a few times.

21:24I was racially abused. And so my only experience of football is watching it on TV or on the radio. I'm really angry I missed out on some real rich experiences on the terraces because of that one of the reasons why I get teased why do you sport Liverpool as a South Londoner is because my only experience of football was watching them on TV and the radio and so forth and they were the great team at the time players I loved you know Kenny Douglas Ian Rush you know Alan Hanson so forth so forth you know and so that was my experience because I couldn't go and watch them watch teams live London teams live so I chose Liverpool and so it does make me angry in relation to the experiences people have for things outside their control.

22:00And it doesn't need to be like that. And, you know, I think you can say in the same breath, there's been massive progress in the last 20, 30, 40 years, but things still aren't great. You know, the things still aren't great. But, you know, if you were to ask me, well, listen, you know, is there any other country in the world you'd want to live? No. Is there any other country in the world you want to raise your daughters? No. But still, things aren't perfect. A final question on this particular failure. I want to know about your mum. What does she think of what you've done? So my mom has eight children.

22:35She has 23 grandchildren. And I think she's got seven great-grandchildren. She's the matriarch of the family. So my father passed in September 2003. And my mom's like the son where basically all her children and grandchildren live within a two-mile orbit of where she lives. I go and see her every day. Do you? Yeah, on the way home from work or on weekends. Yeah. gosh you go and see your mum every day and you pray five times a day and you have an incredibly busy work schedule it's important you've got to you've got to honestly you only have one mum honestly she couldn't give her monkeys i'm the mayor honestly she tells me i've put out the bins and you know why i don't spend more time there and where are my daughters and you know i talked about the race of the mind jord she must have enjoyed racing right going down the road going to get groceries and stuff different culture different language she's wearing different clothes and so yeah she's i mean she's been through a huge amount uh for us she always says to me that i was i was the most difficult child in terms of giving birth to me because she had a c-section she always moans about the fact that i caused her misery because of that so um i've always been the stressful one for her um but the joke in the family from me anyways i'm perfect because i'm the middle three older three younger so she got it right with me and i have great fun when people say to me you know because they know that asians have arranged marriages and stuff they said did you have i was yeah yeah i had an arranged marriage and i let them i said yes i need a my wife and I, it was decided when we were both teenagers and stuff.

24:02And so you really get people really hooked in. And then towards the end, if I'm being generous, when I say arranged, we arranged ourselves. And basically because we've been getting out since I was 17, no other reason. Have you been going out with your wife since 17? Sixth form. Oh my goodness. So I told you my school was a tough school, right? And I didn't realize that my school was a tough school until I started out with my wife. You know, Amal Rajan? Yes. For those who don't know, Amal's presenter on Today Program. He's written about this because he went to the school my wife went to, it's called Graveney School, right?

24:31Amal wrote a really good piece when I first became an MPO. I was running for mayor saying, basically, look, you don't realize, I'm paraphrasing, so please read the original piece from Amal. But Amal said, listen, I went to Graveney School, former grammar school, but this guy Sadiq went to this really tough school up the road, known as a fight school and stuff. And so I'm paraphrasing again, apologies. It's quite remarkable, but he's doing what he's doing because it was a tough school. He knew it was a tough school. But my story about side there is the head of Graveney School was a guy called Mr.

25:00Stapleton. And Mr. Stapleton would walk up and down the road outside Graveney School, simply trying to stop Ernest Bevan boys coming to Graveney School, A, to go out with the girls from Graveney School. Another game rigged against you. Quite. And B, to stop us fighting. And my wife and I met when I was in sixth form and she was in sixth form. And years later, I did a prize giving at Graveney School when Stapleton was still ahead. And much to my daughter's mortification who were in the audience, because they then went to Graveney School as pupils, I said, listen, in a power world, Ms. Stapleton has been successful and I never got to go with Sardia.

25:37And so thank goodness Stapleton is rubbish at stopping Bevan boys going to Graveney. But my wife and I met when I was in upper sixth in Bevan and she was lower sixth in Graveney. Oh my gosh, how amazing. For some reason, I thought you met at uni. That's even better. we've got to get on i mean i could talk to you for absolute hours but apparently you've got a busy job to get back to so let's get on to your second failure which is your failure to become an environmentalist until your 40s tell us about that yeah i'm really embarrassed about this because you know my daughters you know have been you know environmentalists passionate about climate change and air quality for some time since they were little and and i haven't let me be honest i haven't and why not was that just because there were so many other things to worry about and it If most people are honest, when they think about the environment or climate change, they think about it happening in the global south, sub-Saharan Africa, and a 2030, 40-year issue.

26:28They don't think about it being a now issue or why it's important. I mean, obviously, you mentioned before we came to the podcast, I've written about this in the book, this gratuitously publicizing the great book, Breathe, and paperback very soon coming to Bookshop near you. It is a great book. Link in the show notes. But no, but I was the very first person that Louise and Mike asked to be a partner in their firm. And Louise Christian and Mike Fisher, 20 years my senior, the firm will be around forever. And they said, listen, do you want to be a partner? I said, I'd love to. And I negotiated, not a big pay rise.

27:03I negotiated a car park space. And our firm was in Tottenham Court Road. And by the way, I live in Toottenbeck. It was probably quicker to get up there by tube, 25 minutes, environmentally friendly, smart thing to do. but the point of the car park space story is because i wasn't really that bothered about climate change or the environment i wanted to have a parking space to drive my car then a sab convertible then i bought a land rover discovery you know and so my embarrassment is you know the my interest and passion for the environment for tackling the flight emergency for cleaning up our air only happened frankly speaking because i got sick the way to you know inami yourself to london's newspaper evening standard is saying yes when they ask you to run the marathon for their charity right i i said yes ostensibly because my staff said this the way you suck up to the standard if i'm honest right know the rules of the game yes i run the marathon we raise a lot of money for the dispersement fund more than 20 000 pounds i beat ed balls and andy burnham very important am i competitive there you go but a few weeks and a few months later, I have problems breathing and wheezing, and I'm diagnosed with adult onset asthma.

28:17So I never had any problems before. And the adult onset asthma is attributable to air pollution caused by basically particular matter, nitrogen dioxide, nitrogen dioxide that comes from cars. And the same things that cause air pollution causes climate change. And so that begins by, you know, journey of discovery in relation to, you know, what causes climate change, what causes air pollution. And, you know, I'm in my mid 40s now. So, you know, and actually there's no excuse, you know, why I didn't take an interest. Yeah, maybe I was too busy with other issues, but actually this issue also goes to racial justice and social justice.

28:53So there's really no excuse and I'm embarrassed. It's a failure on my part. And so one of the things I've tried to do is to walk the walk when it comes to, you know, explaining in an unpatronizing in a way why it matters now to us, you know, in London or across the country. And it really does. I think one of the phrases, you know, I've used it in the book is, I think the best politicians are teachers. And so, you know, what I've tried to do is to explain why this matters to us. Of course, it matters to the global south. Of course, it matters to the global majority and to Bangladesh and sub-Saharan Africa.

29:24Of course it does. You've got, you know, places around the world which are now, you know, subsumed by water rising. But look at London, you know, last year, temperatures north of 41 degrees Celsius. Two years ago, it was flash flooding causing stations, basement flats, businesses to be flooded. And every year until our policies came in, around 4 ,000 people died prematurely in London across the country, around 30 ,000 died prematurely because of air pollution. So I'm embarrassed that it's taken me until my mid-40s to understand this is a really serious issue, but it is really serious, Elizabeth.

29:57And I think for those of your listeners that don't really think why it matters to them. You know, a car idling or somebody driving an older polluting vehicle or, you know, somebody not understanding, you know, how food is produced or, you know, why flying when you don't need to fly is a problem. Really, just do your own research. Don't, you know, listen to a sermon from me. Do your own research and find out why it matters. And you have walked the walk. You've introduced Eula's scourge of black cab drivers everywhere. And you've done many, many other things that have materially affected air pollution rates.

30:31And part of this was because you came across the story of Ella Adukisi Debra, a nine-year-old, who was the first person who had her cause of death identified as air pollution. Will you tell us Ella's story? There's two stories that are relevant to my passion for being a politician and what I'm doing now in relation to the climate change and air quality. One is the story of Stephen Lawrence, that people don't know about. Stephen Lawrence is a black boy murdered in Southeast London by five racists. And Stephen's mom, Doreen, brought Stephen's case to the fore. And people don't know about Stephen Lawrence because of Doreen's amazing campaigning work and the family.

31:09People don't know about Ella. And she's got an amazing mom as well called Rosamund. And I only discovered about Ella and Rosamund once I'd become the mayor. Even though Boris Johnson, the previous mayor, knew about it in 2013 because he did a report. but he buried it away. So when I became mayor, civil servants said, listen, there's this, I'm paraphrasing, there's this awkward woman who's bringing, you know, raising this issue about her daughter and stuff and it's, you know, and you've always got to take advice you receive with a pinch of salt and also understand people's prejudices because of the previous mayor and so forth.