Sam Ryder - ‘Fame is like giving a dog a treat every single day. You get used to it.’

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0:43Enjoy the drive in Blue Cruise enabled vehicles like the F-150, Explorer and Mustang Mach-E. Available feature on equipped vehicles. Terms apply. Does not replace safe driving. See Ford.com slash Blue Cruise for more details. Hello, lovely How to Fail listeners and viewers. This is just to let you know that if you want a peek behind the curtain to find out the last time that Kate Winslet spoke to Leo or how much sex Vogue Williams considers to be normal, then you can listen to my subscriber series. Just follow the link in the show notes and we will see you there.

1:28when the band would start going downhill because i was always seemingly joining a band as they were on the decline i'd jump on the next one the fact that you found it the scales are balanced forever That is so profound. You've actually made me well up. Have you seen Ed Sheeran since? We've never met. Welcome to How to Fail. And for those that are new around here, this is the podcast where I talk to my guests about three failures in their life and what they've learned along the way. Please do follow this podcast because it really helps other people find us. And please do share it with all of your friends and family members and even people you don't like.

2:10We're not fussy. Thank you so much for being here.

2:16My guest today is a British singer-songwriter who shot to international fame in 2022 when he represented the UK at the Eurovision Song Contest, placing second only to Ukraine. It was our highest scoring entry in 24 years, and the man who sang and co-wrote it was none other than Sam Ryder. He was born and raised in Essex, the son of a carpenter and a dentist, and his first job was delivering papers for the Essex Chronicle. From an early age, Ryder loved music. Some of his earliest memories are of singing along to Freddie Mercury in his dad's car. He spent several years as a wedding singer until COVID hit and lockdown restrictions made public performances impossible.

3:03So he turned to TikTok, uploading music covers. He gained a huge following and eventually a record deal. His singing caught the attention of artists such as Elton John, Sia, Justin Bieber and Alicia Keys. And in 2022, his debut album debited at number one in the UK album charts. After two Brit Award nominations, he's now releasing White Lies, the first single from his second album, which he's been hard at work on for most of last year. I've been playing music for a long time, mostly to empty rooms, Ryder has said about his rise to fame. That's the reality for so many people, absolutely grafting, carrying on regardless with a sort of blind ambition, believing that you'll make it one day and it might not be tomorrow.

3:58Sam Ryder, welcome to How To Fail. Mate, thank you so much for having me. I'm blown away. Thank you. Oh, I've blown away to have you here. Very kind of you. How did that make you feel hearing that? Really a bit emotional, actually. Yeah, just so lovely, just remembering how much my parents have supported me from delivering papers around, well, you can't even call it a village where I grew up. And then working the drive-through, then going to work with my dad and just, yeah, all the sort of self-belief you have to have in yourself through those years. Is it true that you helped your dad build Wembley Stadium?

4:39Yes, yeah, we did. A very small amount of it. We put some floors down in one of the hospitality rooms some of those doors were hung by me and they probably swing like saloon doors now and they've had so much planed off the top and bottom because they're wonky but I'm sure that's not true tell me about being a wedding singer and those years spent performing in that context what do you think those years taught you I started worked with my dad for a bit in carpentry and my dad bless him he was just like you know wanted to help me out make sure that I could um earn some money and buy some guitars and like chase music basically we had a lot of disagreements growing up and instilled in me a real ethic for hard work and you get what you put in in in this world and in this life I really like feel that from my dad and um but he would let me go and play shows or go and tour with bands because that was my dream and he knew that carpentry was a way that I could learn skills um put some money in the bank and go and see the world and chase like run down the dream like tom petty would say you know yeah and um so i'm playing like punk bands and metal bands because that was my music growing up it still is now like iron maiden like my favorite band on the planet and they they taught me so much about kind of perseverance and uh just melodic sensibility in music and and far more so i did that for a lot of years again playing to no one that's when i when you said in your introduction that's the time that it was just playing around europe around russia around south america around the us um played all over the place with different bands i was like a i always say i was like a flea on a bunch of dying dogs just sort of jumping off them at the right time to like be kind of on the next one and uh when the band would start going downhill because I was always seemingly joining a band as they were on the decline I'd jump on the next one until I made a conscious effort to um really rethink my approach to music and and what I was doing it for uh which we can get into later but um that that's when I took a break from chasing that same kind of feedback loop and then I started singing at weddings and that's where I learned the most about music and you could say that's the uh like in terms of like cool anecdotes and stories there's far more when you're playing in some random like underground club in in Russia than there is playing at an Essex like whitewashed wedding venue like in the countryside it's um but that's where I learned everything I feel about singing and and being a vocalist and and stuff like that and it was one of the things that you learned that you had to do it for the love of it because so often at weddings people are drunk and not paying attention you are anonymous you are me in the room like one of the first weddings that I did I was very much in a space you know when you're like starting out your ego is an uncontrollable sort of state because it needs to be it's um you have to tell yourself oh I'm special I'll make it one day and all this sort of um no this narrative that replays in your mind um because it's a it's a it's kind of like your superpower you've got nothing else you need to have some kind of like overextended belief you think yourself.

8:22And I remember singing at a wedding and I had this run, I think it was in like a Gloria Gaynor song that we were covering or something like that. I remember thinking in my head, oh, I absolutely nailed that. They will love that. And I opened my eyes and no one cared. No one battered an eyelid. And it was then, it was like a very hard lesson immediately that like, no one cares. You have to do this because you love it and do not expect anything else from anyone it needs to be something that feeds your spirit um and music and singing cannot be a thing that you hope to gain something from it you cannot take anything from it because it's given you everything already because music or any kind of work that we we chase and we give our lives to is purpose and from that is fulfillment so to ask for anything from it as currency in return is folly and you you have to simply um be grateful that it exists in your life because there are numerous people around the planet who go through their entire lifespan without knowing what their spark is and what their their skill is and what their thing that lights them up in this world is so the fact that you found it the the scales are balanced forever that is so profound you've actually made me well up because you've spoken directly to my soul there I so I so appreciate that I can't explain you have been at work in the studio on your second album was it nice getting back in the studio after so nice the fame the success everything the Brit Award nominations yeah how did it feel when everything kicked off like I was in a state of just abundance of things happening that I could never have dreamt of, like beyond my wildest imaginings.

10:13But there comes a price with that because every day you're like, it's like giving a dog a treat every day. So like every hour of every day because you get used to it and it can be very taxing if you haven't got your spiritual armament in check. And so that was something I very much knew that I had to employ and shore up. So there was a time right after the Emmy Awards where we were nominated and we lost to Ed Sheeran, which is going to come up again later. Well, I remember going back to my hotel room in Los Angeles and just very much having a talk with myself. Like, this has been a wonderful, I think, three-year stint of just things that, like I said, couldn't have imagined happening.

11:05and realizing dreams and successes alongside an amazing team. But it's time to go into the studio and do the work because there are a lot of voices around telling me, don't ever go away, don't ever be quiet because the way that we consume media now, that's your death sentence. To ever just take time for the work and not be out in the public eye would be essentially giving it all up and I hated that and not to use that word lightly but I I despised that uh thought process and this thing that puts so much pressure on anyone in regardless of what industry you're in or or anything just as a human being being uh told that and even worse believing it is is awful so um I mean the best way to rebel against that is to do it because creating something that you feel is valuable takes time and it is labor intensive good food takes time to cook and you have to um you have to at some point just get stuck in i'm going to talk about some of the songs i've been lucky enough to hear from it a bit later i feel there's been a shift in your sound and i can't put my finger on it so will you describe the second album sound i call the genre a frontier soul because for me like i'm a big fan of cinema as well as music and tarantino's work for example or all the old westerns that me and my granddad would watch like over and over again because we'd forgotten what ones we'd seen and and stuff like that like all of that is in the music as well there's a dusty kind of desert-y soul that exists in in the soundscape whether it's in the guitars or even just the way that we've captured it on old tape machines and all of this thing it takes time it's not quick even using machines like that is labor intensive and it's methodical and it makes you uh think about what you're doing kind of being present in the process of doing it if that makes sense it makes total sense let's get on to your failures Your first one is losing at a battle of the bands to support Ed Sheeran in 2019.

13:27Yes. Okay, so tell us what happened. At this moment in time, I was singing at weddings, but also running a vegan juice bar, like a healthy sort of food establishment with my partner, Lois. And it was so amazing. We did that for three years and we were so healthy, I can't explain. We were like, I don't know, I made all the juices. So I'd go and play at weddings. And then instead of going home to bed afterwards, because you don't really leave them to like 1.30 or 2 in the morning, I'd go straight to the shop. So people would see me, like the milkman would drive past. We had this lovely big bay window and the milkman would go past and I'd be in a suit cutting watermelons up because I'd get all the cold pressed juice made, which again, it's very methodical.

14:10It takes ages. It's not like, you know, the ones where you throw apples in. It's like slow little corkscrew. and it is kind of, yeah, it's almost like mantra, you know, when you're making these juices. So I do that, it take hours and then Lois would come in and serve the food. She's amazing at like dealing with a busy cafe. I can't bear it. I couldn't, like, there would be times if I was on my own in the shop, people would want to come in and I'd say, I'm sorry, we're closed. Because I just, I felt, I just couldn't do it. That's interesting. I just can't do it. Are you an introvert? but no no because I love people I love like um saying hello to anyone and everyone like I love chatting but there's something in me when people are waiting for something from me like even to make them like a peanut butter bagel with a juice I'd be freaking out and I've always been like that oh you can never go on celebrity master chef no couldn't never um But yeah, so I'd do that.

15:11So this was the time in my life that that was going on. And when I'd finish, I'd go back to my studio and I'd just make records and songs and write and go and play little shows in London as and when they came up. And this opportunity came up to get involved in this battle of the bands. And I was laughing because I was like, I haven't been involved in a battle of the bands since I was probably 16 years old. And here I am in my, well, I would have been my mid twenties, I think doing it again. So in a way, if you get in your head, it felt like a backward step, but I was like, you know what? I feel like I could do this in the right way now, you know?

15:50And the prize was to me at that time so amazing you know get the chance to open up for Ed Sheeran so it's like huge something you know just mad and um so I did this and I got on stage and I played my set and I came off stage and I was like really happy with that performance and whatever happens happens and of course that's a lie that we all tell ourselves because you're like I want to win and then um I didn't win but it felt for whatever reason it felt like the final nail in the coffin I don't know why because I remember standing out it was a really lovely clear night and the stars were out the gig was at this small cafe in Ipswich and I was with my partner Lois and we were just stood by the water and I was so sad like sad's not the word but I just felt like oh that that was you know you know when you hear people like when they talk to their um I don't know their grandkids or their nieces and nephews when they're older like that was my last gig or my last time trying and that's when I really threw in the towel or something like that it felt like that could have been that moment for me and um it just felt very poignant I was like okay well I gave it my best shot and no one can say otherwise because I gave everything in the chase and the pursuit of this dream and maybe it wasn't for me and life holds something else for me I've learned so much and I'll carry on singing but I'll just sing for people getting married and that would be my life and what a lovely life it still would have been there's nothing terrible about it by any means but um it still felt like you know sad in that way and um I remember Lois really comforting me and saying and holding my hands and we both looked up to the stars I know this is going to sound so wafty but you know there's something about a lovely clear night it's for millennia we've all done like humans have done it you look up and it feels like your your problems are tiny but you are still part of something majestic and all you have to do is look up and feel that way.

17:59And we both said, I'm ready. I'm ready for this to happen. And I invite it into my life and I swear to whatever's out there that I'll perform it with the most grace I can. And that's what we both said. Oh my, that's extraordinary. Well, it really did feel that way. So how important has Lois been through all of this? Oh, mate, I can't put into words. She, the amazing thing, and it's similar actually listening to the Danny Dyer episode of this show because Danny has been with his partner for a long time. And I remember him saying that she never really wanted that life, but she came along for the ride in the most supportive and loving way.

18:45And Lois is the same. She never wanted us to have, she loved it when I was juicing vegetables, going to sing at weddings and coming home and maybe thought I would get into gardening one day and we'd have a lovely, like quiet life. And she's been so incredible because she knows that this has been such a dream of mine for as long as I can remember. And she was willing to like strap herself on to this like runaway train of upheaval almost. I've seen what this does to people that don't have someone like Lois in their life it derails everything and it isn't worth the the cost it just isn't I've seen like the the look in people's eyes where you can almost see that there is a glaze and just this far away stare in a false happiness and a false content with this amazing gilded thing that they've been gifted, but it's not worth it.

19:48It's not re-tick. It's totally fake. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So from that moment, which is 2019, then COVID happens and the lockdowns hit. So it's not that long. After you've stood there under the night sky, the stars, and you've said, I invite this in, we are so ready. What was the first TikTok video you made? I think I can't remember the exact one because it's all a bit convoluted. But I remember my friend, my dear friend and Lois's friend, Derek in Nashville, who's actually now part of my management team, which is so lovely. I've known him for 12 years and he was one of the first people that sort of believed in the music I was making and has been there since day one, really.

20:34He just told me, look, get on TikTok and sing some songs. I have a good feeling about it. And I was like, I don't want to get on TikTok. I saw people dancing and stuff like that. He was like, no, just do it. I've just got this feeling. So I was like, OK, cool. I'll do it. and I think one of the first ones that really went off maybe was Sia maybe singing Sia or at least it might not have been the first TikTok but that in my mind when I look back I think it was May 15th or something because I like the date is somewhere etched in my mind I have remembered it before I don't remember it today but it was around that time um that I remember making a sort of a note like you know you put a sort of fold in the page of your life and be like that's when life changed and I remember doing that because I was uh stirring some pasta like it was the lockdown that we had thankfully was like huckleberry fin like the out in the countryside the weather that summer was mad good wasn't it and myself and Lois were living with my parents my mum and dad because we'd just bought a house but it needed to be totally renovated um so me and my dad were like going there when we were allowed to like take ceilings down and stuff like that but in the meantime just living with mum and dad and I was singing in my shed um so yeah I just made this video put it online and then was just stirring some pasta we were gonna have a little barbecue at the end of the garden all together it was really lovely memory and all of a sudden I checked my phone and it would it just had gone crazy and uh like Sia had tagged me in this post sharing the video and and not just that but like saying something it's so incredibly kind in the caption that it felt like basically reading between the lines we're rooting for you and we'll see you when you get here that's how I read it and it's so lovely and yeah I made a mental note that that's when sort of life changed and I knew that we'd crossed a Rubicon that there was no going back from, really.

22:42Have you seen Ed Sheeran since? We've never met to this day. And there's a reason for that, which I couldn't. You hate him. No, no, no. I love Ed, but there was, like, I swore again the promises I made before getting into this industry that I would never bring up or call anyone out that wasn't there. to protect themselves but there are reasons behind the scenes that kept us apart um because i know we have wanted to meet each other and now those have been alleviated and people that were stopping that are not in the picture okay anymore our paths will cross soon i'm sure because some very close friends of mine that are very close with him um always say how similar we are actually i can i don't think it's just the ginger beard no but i've heard lovely things and um if he's listening then ed it's a long time coming let's chat about music yes ed and if you're listening please do come on how to fail because you've said some amazing things about failure thanks very much

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25:32Can we talk about your hair? Are you sick of talking about it? No, not at all. You've got great hair. Mate, thank you so much. Honestly. And is it the Iron Maiden inspiration? Is that why you decided to grow it? My mum took me to a barber's in Malden High Street when I was young and sort of left me while she went to do the shopping. And they cut. And I didn't necessarily have long hair when she dropped me off, but they completely shaved it. And I remember I looked like Dracula, like my hairline back then for whatever reason was doing a bit of a count vibe. And I remember looking at myself in the mirror and just swear I'm never going to have short hair ever again.

26:08I look terrible. Is it true you once dislocated your shoulder when you were washing it? Many times I've dislocated my shoulder. Many times. Yeah, yeah. But that's true. So this one's got a big scar down at where it's been fixed. This one I don't want to fix because the surgery really limits your strength. Once when I come out of the sea from surfing, I was in the shower on the beach and just kind of washing the water out of my hair, the seawater out of my hair. And my thumb got stuck in a loop of like a knot of hair. And then my shoulder dislocated. So I was under this really, you know, like the showers on the beach.

26:42They're like, like almost like fire hydrants. And I just didn't know what to do. I was trying to get this out and I was freezing cold. And it was just, yeah, calamity of errors. So you've dislocated your shoulders. Should have put that in my list, actually. You've dislocated your shoulders several times, but not always washing your hair. No. That's where I got confused. Okay. Let's move on to your second failure. Yes. I can't wait to get into this one because it sounds really deep. Your second failure, as you put it, is talking openly about being hopeful and having faith, but struggling with it over the past year.

27:14I'd realized that every interview that I'd done and sort of every conversation I'd had with people in the media in the last sort of three years, when it all kind of went to the next level, would always be introduced in a way. And it was so kind and I really appreciate it. But like, Sam, you're here. How are you so positive? And thanks for being on the show or whatever. but what I noticed in myself is that um I mentioned this earlier about giving dogs treats I almost felt like while it was true and I can say with my hand on heart I'm a joyful person and I thank god I am and I found happiness in my life but I never wanted to sell what I was trying to promote and I was always a line I never wanted to cross but I'd crossed it and I can't deny that there was a dopamine kick when someone would say how are you so positive because your your ego loves that it's like yes I am aren't I like and then almost you notice that positivity can become a currency but it's it isn't worth anything it's a snake oil because it's not um none of us are one-dimensional human beings aren't we're so many different things and while i totally believe in um not not bringing and airing your dirty laundry everywhere you go there is a work face that you put on but yeah I felt like perhaps I'd crossed the line of um telling myself like those white lies that that was me all the time and I must be that all the time um and even you telling me that I'm that makes me even happier so you're kind of compounding it does that make sense makes total sense and it's so interesting and white lies is the title of yeah so that that's what the song was written about yeah for you it sort of became a kind of brand that's the thing that you were trying to stay away from yeah exactly i don't want to build a brand on on something that i am because that's the wrong it feels inherently wrong to do that because then you're tying yourself to a single dimension yes makes total sense i also last week someone told me this very interesting phrase.

29:48She said, I don't believe in positive thinking. I believe in flexible and realistic thinking. Yes. In that what you're describing is a kind of groundedness. That's what I get from you. It's presentness. Exactly. It's not just kind of like, we can't joke and say like golden retriever energy. I totally get that. And it's fun, like in like the meme space essentially but it's not real and it's not you all of the time no completely not like I'm I'm buzzing when I get to do things like this or or go out to I don't know there was a big f1 event I'm a massive f1 fan so of course I'm going to be like smiling my head off when I'm there or there's pictures or anything like that or there's interviews I just I love the sport and I love music and I love all these things that I go to it's because I love them so of course I'm going to be stoked but um positivity for me isn't this forced happiness at all it can't be because um that's cloaking emotion positivity is finding uh groundedness like you're saying presentness state of peace and you only reach those things at least i feel i only reach those things through gratitude and real measured gratitude and lately something i've been really trying to employer talking about prayer is um i used to in in prayer and regardless of what people believe what you believe what people watching um believe like even to not believe in anything is a belief in some way you know but um for me it prayer used to exist like i was asking for something like um whether like a destination based prayer like i want this to happen for me or i want to experience this but now it's way more rooted in I want to feel peace and I want to feel like I've reached peace with a state of grace and however the path looks to reach that feeling then protect me on that path do you know what I mean I do how did you get there just describe what your faith is to you and where it came from?

32:01I was raised Catholic, but I can't say I would be completely lying if I said I would know any doctrine, any reading. I couldn't read a psalm to you from my head or anything like that. But I just know there's a comfort that I feel when I turn to my spirituality and it's even saying my spirituality feels convoluted because that's not true it's like the that feeling lives within all of us I truly think that and I remember back when I was playing in like hardcore punk bands I was at a church in Texas I can't remember even why I was there but I was actually at a place in my life where I would I probably would have hated going to a church because I've had a very interesting journey when it comes to faith and finding how faith works for me and how I can access that.

32:59But I was probably very much a person sitting in the pews thinking this is complete rubbish. But something was said in that sermon by the pastor. It was like, even if the kingdom of heaven isn't real, isn't this a better way to live? and it really struck me that and and I can only in fact even just talking to you now I haven't really thought of that since just this moment and so that is sitting in my subconscious I think of just isn't this a better way to live for me personally when we started this conversation you were talking about how you'd had a talk with yourself after not winning the Emmy in a hotel room in LA can you tell us more about that what kind of really rough actually uh I think no one is without ego that it exists in in all of us it's part of us almost it keeps us in check it's a voice where you can be like you can challenge it and make sure that it keeps you on the right path that it doesn't um ego unchecked is the problem yes you know um and gratitude is the force that holds and uh but i remember being so um uh kind of hurt that we didn't get it because we put so much work into it and it was such a selfish viewpoint that i had then in that hotel room uh and i thought i'd got rid of that wasn't me i i'm totally not about that and popular opinion would say oh that's what you would have wanted the gold medal.

34:41Surely you wanted to win. I never felt that. I was like, I love being here. And I know if I've done my best work and I've carried myself to the standard that my family and my loved ones would expect of me, I do not care about the end result because it's nothing. But that was the first time something, for whatever reason, crept past. It felt like, you know when you see like an action movie and there's a massive like I don't know fight or something or just foray of energy bullets are flying everything's going on and the the main character is kind of I don't know like suavely like suavely dodging everything like James Bond style and then they kind of the scene dies down and they walk away and then the camera pans down and he realized oh they actually did catch a bullet or something you know what in typical like cinema technique and um that's what it felt like I was like I felt like I'd carried these um ethics and these morals and these values with me but something sort of got through at some point and uh tried to steer me off and that's why I made after that like it was the circuit breaker I was like i don't want to if i carry on those that's how it happens it's how it begins no one ever like i said gets rid of that ego you just keep it in check and the less you keep it in check the more it grows and um that's when i was like i'm gonna go away for a year in the studio do the the spiritual work do the musical work do the the everything work it's really amazing that you were able to do that within yourself with the help of your faith in this higher power but so many people would need someone else to step in and say by the way it's a seductive drug i think the whole idea of notoriety and recognition in a public space with whatever industry you're in see that the brits was just the other night well it's basically putting everyone from every corner of the industry, whether you're presenters, dancers, musicians, singers,

37:08like designers or creative directors, all in one space, looking at other people in their industry and like comparisons, the thief of joy. We all know that. So we're all, the energy there is like super hectic you can feel it and uh and usually I kind of I didn't like going but I was also stoked to be there because they were like I was lucky enough to get a nomination so I'd sit there and I'd try and just be thankful and you sit in like trying to just tell yourself over again thank you thank you thank you try not to let any of that comparison kick in because it ruins the night but it is an effort but this year I just I really enjoyed it I so loved just rooting for people that were winning and seeing them succeed and knowing that other people's um successes aren't your failures I mean that's a classic case we all feel that that's like um page one of the how to fail book I suppose isn't it um but also knowing the like when I do fail now I am not we aren't victims of failure we are beneficiaries if anyone listening to this is struggling and by anyone I mean me with with that well I'm there with you this doesn't you don't fix it I don't think it's It's so difficult because obviously, ironically, I've set up this whole podcast about failure and exactly what we're talking about because I still care about where I am in the chart, in the podcast chart.

38:43Stupid, isn't it? It's so stupid and I don't know how to stop it. Yeah. What advice would you give? I totally get you because even releasing new stuff or being in any facet of the industry like I keep saying all of us have metrics that people that we work with are looking at I found that something that brings me a lot of comfort in knowing that there is a foot you must have in the physical and keeping a foot in the spiritual is vital but having a team around you that you love and you trust and that you you would truly do anything for which I from spending a short amount of time with you I feel like you would be that person that a team isn't something in flux you invite people into your circle who you want to help build up and that you would hope will stay with you for the entire journey that for me is so important and we've gone to great lengths people who were deemed uh no longer valuable in the major label system when we left that when those people were let go of we uh took them in to build our own thing all together as they took them in sounds like stray dogs it wasn't like that we needed them more than they needed us uh and so we've built that we've built our own recording studios our own film studios everything so that no matter what happens I can make records with a great team for the rest of my life.

40:12And it doesn't matter about the child's because everything's been invested into that being a constant. So there's a sort of rebellion there, I think, that's needed. But all great things come from upheaving the furniture. So I think that that is a piece of advice. I totally hear you. And I really do feel for you, I swear, because I know the feeling. Yes. I just do. All of this that you have so eloquently described, is it also partly why I've seen the artwork for White Lies and your face is obscured? Yes. Is there a sort of turning away? Yeah, I'm glad you picked that up. I loved it, by the way.

40:53Thank you, mate. So we, myself, Lois and Jack, who is our photographer and videographer, and it's just amazing guy we went on a trip basically to georgia so i live half the time in nashville we've just moved there so it's super exciting anyway we stopped at this thrift shop this place just had a pile of trash out the front of it which immediately made me excited for what was in there because the stuff on the trash pile was quite good it's the stuff that they'd sell like for way too much money in nashville center so i was like if they're Throwing that in the bin, I want to see what I've got. So, but yeah, just looking at the pile of rubbish made me think like about the upheaval of the furniture and the pulling the rug out from the past and not discarding it, but just knowing that it was there and it's a time and that life is consistently moving and to stay stuck in the past is, well, Willie Nelson says, you slow down, you go down.

41:58So stay in motion and keep moving. So we took a picture of me essentially running away from it. And I think that that pile of rubbish, it sounds maybe like a bit too much of a diss. And I don't mean it as a diss, but is kind of us looking at the world in which we operated in, in the industry for music in the last three years and what we're heading into, which is of course off screen and we don't know what it is but it's in some open lush green field and it's not like i said there's no shade being thrown here to people it's infrastructure not the people because the people have come with us the people that were um let go from their jobs after succeeding every single time everything that came our way on that project we passed with flying colors in short what do you think the greatest flaw of the music industry as it exists now is i think it's lack of patience anything that's shiny and new they run towards and then as soon as something else comes up they get left in the lurch without being given the time to um to grow and develop and to uh do something outstanding and and something that we see as valuable and and precious and just magnetic, it's very quickly forgotten about.

43:27But that's not because those people aren't patient. It's because the nature of the industry isn't patient. So they can't afford to be patient because their jobs are on the line.

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44:20You've taken the office step challenge a step too far. Don't worry, though. Sierra also has yoga gear. It might be a good place to find your zen. Discover top brands at unexpectedly low prices. Sierra, let's get moving. Your final failure, which is linked to everything that we've been discussing, is not being around for family and friends so much. Yes, and I'm sure this is a popular one, right? But I very much over the last few years have known deep in my mind and my soul that I am living in the golden age of my life. My grandfather is alive. God bless him. And my mum and dad are fit and healthy and able to wind down, not work their fingers to the bone as much anymore.

45:11Where my parents didn't know anything about music, they, and I love you mum, but. but can they sing well my mum actually doesn't have a bad voice at all she'll be laughing when she is there but she could definitely join like a like a village choir that sounds so condescending yeah yeah but she definitely could if she wanted to and i think she should because i think singing's just good for everything um but she yeah i hear her sing every now and then she's got proper like disney vibrato you know when like the birds are singing like kind of that um but yeah they didn't know anything about music.