Shabaz Ali - ‘I’ll be a diversity quota as long as I get paid’

21:35Shabaz Ali:What was the first realisation that you had as an adult?

21:37Elizabeth Day:That was brown. Not the looking in the mirror, I'll tell you. It was, I think the first job I ever got, I got a job at Apple. It wasn't the first job I got, but the first time I'd experienced that. So I got a job at Apple and loved it. I was like, I was like Apple geek and I thought, this is amazing so hard to get into this job and I was sat in the staff room and a girl turned around said well you know why you were hired didn't you were hired because the diversity thing like you know they've hired a lot of white people and they've hired you for because you're brown and I thought oh wow and at that moment I was like oh that's the first time somebody had said that that would the because of the color of my skin that you know I mean or differentiated something don't get me wrong I use that now to my advantage I'm like if that's what you need to do then hire me pay the checks if you need to if there's a company out there that's like we need to fill a diversity quarter hire me I'll be your diversity quarter as long as my bills are paid you know I mean but I think that was the first time and I think my path is very hard compared to someone who's my white equivalent and I've said this before and I know it makes people uncomfortable I don't know my manager probably squirms because she's like don't say it no you should say it but I think it's one of those where like, because I will tell you, I have to work so much harder than someone who has it just given to them on a plate because of the color of their skin, because of the fact that they're the natural default, because of, and it's not even that the companies are being racist.

23:04Elizabeth Day:They just know what their demographic is going to want. If you think about, we were talking about TV shows. I'm a celebrity has only in 25 years has had one black winner.

23:15Shabaz Ali:It's shocking. And even the recent series, the first two contestants who were voted out were black.

23:22Elizabeth Day:Yeah. And the thing is, creators, we're not even allowed to be on national TV because we're seen as like the others. And then the only and we've had creators. We had Nella Rose last year, who's probably one of the most popular creators. And what did they do? It sacrificed her to make Nigel Farage look good. And then what have they done? Like this year, the only the creator, Angry Ginge. why because he's a ginger northern working class lad so it does so so I get why the companies do it because companies are also trying to pay their bills they also want to do that so they don't want to step outside the box of going you know we can't hire a brown person because think about it or there's been people complaining about the fact that all adverts have brown people on them at this moment in time so I think that's been the bigger the hardest bit is I guess being brown's always been the struggle but also northern in in the i'm in the film and tv community and i think being northern is is awful because if you notice what northern people look like in social in films and tv and any adaptation or any i said it recently i was like where are the i read a lot of crime thriller books right where are the why are northern people not in these shows why is it always a posh white person going through a crime thriller like this if you look at every adaptation the big fat mansion the big fat house they are and then the only other working class person will be the ba-dum-ba-dum working class person like hello me mum's from like it'll be a character who's hiding their poverty and their mum is from working class council estate

24:54Shabaz Ali:and the northern element is sort of seen as a characteristic that's like a shorthand for your character yeah

25:00Elizabeth Day:so it's the accent and then the the accent automatically means poor so now I've gone from I'm a brown man working class northern and then on top of it i'm a creator so like sometimes the bottom of the barrel because even creators in movie and film creators are always ever seen as hi everyone it's me if anytime you see a creator they'll have their phone out and they'll be like the selfie taking creator um which is not what we are so yeah there's it but again i can complain about it but there's people out there with words yeah and you're also not complaining about it i asked you and you've given me a really long answer no a brilliant and enlightened and interesting

25:41Shabaz Ali:answer that I think it is necessary for people to engage with yeah absolutely who do have a set of privileges you know those times late at night when you're scrolling and you see something online that you've been looking for and you just need to buy it right there and then you click on the link you add it to cart before hitting checkout. But then that sinking feeling as you realise you don't have your card anywhere near and don't want to get out of bed. But that's when you see it, that purple pay button that has all of your information saved, making checking out as simple as a quick tap of your screen.

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27:02Elizabeth Day:Hey, you didn't hear this from me, but Normal Gossip is back for its ninth season. Join me, Rachel Hampton, as I share the juiciest gossip from the real world with some very special guests. This season, we're bringing back some old friends, a Radiotopia buddy, and for the first time ever, a Nobel laureate. That's right. We have Malala on season nine. Normal Gossip is out on all your favorite podcast platforms.

27:31Shabaz Ali:My day kicks off with a refreshing Celsius energy drink, then straight to the gym. Pre-K pickup, back home to meal prep. Time for my fire station shift. One more Celsius, gotta keep the lights on. When the three alarm hits, I'm ready. Celsius. Live, fit, go. Grab a cold refreshing Celsius at your local retailer or locate now at Celsius.com. I wanted to ask about how your parents see what you do, because you mentioned earlier that idea amongst certain South Asian families that to be successful means moving to the aspirational home and not necessarily calling out the quote unquote povo nature of it and the sort of gap between the house and have nots.

28:15Shabaz Ali:What do your parents think of what you do?

28:16Elizabeth Day:So I find my mom struggled a lot with me speaking about poverty. Yeah. Because in her mind, I did the best I could. And I'm not saying you didn't do the best you could. But we didn't have the money to go to Disneyland. We didn't have that money. We just didn't have the things that other people had. And that's also OK. I'm not saying that you didn't provide the best you did. You made the best of what you had. You came from another country. You were immigrants. You worked hard. You did what you needed to do. that's I'm not saying you were bad people I'm just saying that we didn't have anything so my mum really struggles with me talking about poverty online or talking about my story or my journey my my dad is very my dad's just chilling he doesn't he he only found out I was famous last month because his mate told him like his mate said to him that I think it was on a it was we have a local magazine in Blackburn and I was on the cover of that and that's when my dad found out that I was he was like hey are you famous aren't you because his taxi mates were saying um he's a taxi driver yeah yeah they were saying oh you know you met your son's on a magazine you know he's big in it my mum really struggled with that I think my mum struggled with like you never talk about poverty you never speak about it because why would you put that shame on us but I think she's gotten over it she's gotten over it because she's like it's part of who you are and it's part of your identity also I think she has to get over it because she doesn't have a choice I've already We've made the videos now.

29:38Elizabeth Day:So what are you going to do about it? I'm on Elizabeth's podcast talking about poverty. Yes. It's out, isn't it? So what are you going to do?

29:43Shabaz Ali:And I want to pay tribute to your mother and your dad because they have created you. Yeah, absolutely. That's amazing. And what a resource for so many of the rest of us who feel lost or overlooked or like we're not enough.

29:55Elizabeth Day:So thank you to your mum and dad. And like I said, they're great. And like they love it now. Like my dad's like buy a house, buy a house. And I couldn't care less about buying a house. Buy a house, get married, have kids. and that's what their aspirations are. I can't die. If you don't get married and have a kid, that's like my mum's like, I just want to die, but I can't until you all have a kid. And I was like, mum, you've been saying you're going to die for the last 10 years. Still here with us. Thank God. But you'll be okay. How old are you?

30:23Shabaz Ali:I can't tell. I am 33. Okay. You have incredible skin.

30:26Elizabeth Day:Oh, thank you. Yeah. It takes a lot of work. I can also tell.

30:31Shabaz Ali:Like, it's beautiful. So I keep doing it. Okay. Okay, your second failure is not recognising your own strengths and abilities earlier in life.

30:38Elizabeth Day:Yeah.

30:40Shabaz Ali:So tell us what you think your strengths and abilities are.

30:43Elizabeth Day:Empathy is such a strength. It can be a strength and it can also be a detriment because like I was doing the Edinburgh Fringe, but after I finished my show, I'd sit and just have a minute of reflection or whatever. And I'm sat eating a sandwich or whatever. and I'm looking at people who are walking past handing their flyers out and asking people to come to their shows and no one's coming to their shows and they've been doing it for 10 years and that really hurt and it really made me feel sad and I was and I kept walking away super depressed from the whole thing and I said I'll never do fringe again because of that because I'm such an empath so I was like oh this is just awful like imagine like they've been they imagine that struggle for 10 years, you've been working hard and you just can't catch your break.

31:28Elizabeth Day:But why me? Why did I get my break? What did I do? Why me? So I think being an empath is great, but it's sometimes such a detriment because I constantly look at, like, I want to donate all my money. I see somebody in the street and I just want to pull out a tenner and give it to them. I'm so consumed by the world and its issues that my story would be filled with all the issues about the world constantly and and you know every single problem in the world I want to say something somebody messaged me in my inbox which is probably I should probably say out loud but somebody messaged my inbox saying this person's got cancer would you be able to donate and I'll be like yeah I'll donate I'll put it on my story and it's great but there's only so much one person can do with the world and for me the struggle of the weight of the world is always I think probably

32:17Shabaz Ali:a bad thing how did that empathy manifest itself when you were a teacher you mentioned the bullying and I was just in there but that must have been really difficult at points seeing your students

32:27Elizabeth Day:struggle yeah really hard and I think I love young people I think they are so brilliant and I think they get a lot of young people get such a bad rap I've seen some young people who are going to change this world and I think it was so tough to see some of their struggles and see how hard they some of them had it being an adult there's only so much you can do I couldn't give money to a kid who couldn't afford his lunch because that would mean that people think I'm favorite like there's some sort of favoritism I can't donate all my money to the school meals because there's hundreds of kids every single day that need to eat I can't go and buy shoes for one kid who can't whose parents can't afford it so you know I mean so it's really hard to be in be empathetic and but then it still works because you can still do what you can do what were you like as a teacher other than

33:17Shabaz Ali:being really caring yeah you're a cool teacher yeah absolutely absolutely absolutely i follow

33:24Elizabeth Day:the behavior policy i'm not even gonna lie i was a cool teacher i loved it and the kids loved me i was strict because i met somebody recently and she was like you were strict but i grew up with very not strict parents but very i they had standards you know cleanliness is godliness like my mom was like very like uniform had to be correct how you present yourself is always how the world's gonna treat you so my classroom was pristine my books were all in order my life is nothing like that but my classroom represented that because I was teaching them so I was late I'd climb through a window to get into the classroom because I didn't want to clock in because they'd find out I was late to school so climbing through my classroom window and like so I was late but they would never know that the kids would always see a presented front of like perfection because that's the that's what we're trying to instill on them is values because i had a parent once saying um oh you know so what all the kids in the streets are doing that and i said to this parent i'm not after making your kid a street smart child i'm making them presentable for the professional world so then they can go out there and do anything and and the world will not treat them as a northern working class person they will treat them as a respectable member of society regardless of their upbringing and their background that's what my job was so the kids thought I was strict absolutely like he's always commenting about why are my ties not correct or why my uniform's dirty or why dates and titles are underlined which I know a lot of kids are like oh what's it going to change but it's just setting a standard and setting some rules in place and the kids loved it because some of them came from such chaotic backgrounds that I was the only order and stability they had in their entire week and an entire year.

35:02Elizabeth Day:So yeah, so I was a strict, cool teacher. With me, it was kind of like, I never followed like the consequence system because you have like a, you've answered back C1, answered, you know, C2. I'd just be like, you annoy me enough, I'll kick you out of my classroom. It's simple.

35:15Shabaz Ali:Okay, that was going to be my next question. How do you deal with someone who is recalcitrant and making trouble and aggressive and sort of like,

35:24Elizabeth Day:and what do you do i found i never really had it so then i've been a social media teacher was sort of like the the sort of cool thing like you don't want to annoy the social media teacher like they grow up on that they live eat and breathe social media so for them it's kind of like this is you know god yeah but you know i mean like for them it's like this is this is you know we can't be doing that to this person but i found that behavior for me i would i just it wasn't patronizing i think there's a difference like and you can be patronizing and be like you shouldn't be doing this and it's just see I'll be like what's the problem literally what's your problem yes why are you throwing a pen across the room like you I'll put it on you why is it that you're throwing a pen across the room and do you think it's good enough do you think it's right behavior and if you because it's accountability isn't it everyone wants to be held accountable what you don't want to do is be think why am I why have I been wronged like you have now been given enough chances to fully know that I am being, I'm mobbing the teacher off now.

36:22Shabaz Ali:And you've been given agency and respect as an individual

36:24Elizabeth Day:rather than just being confronted with a one size fits all system. That's it, yeah. And then one size does not fit all for teenagers.

36:31Shabaz Ali:But you have had quite a lot of random jobs. Yes. Hundreds. Is it right that you used to work in a hospital morgue? Yes.

36:41Elizabeth Day:Okay, tell me everything. I don't actually talk about it, you know. I've worked in a lot of jobs And I think the morgue happened by accident because I was working in a lab, actually labelling like poo and pee and blood. So mundane, like just printing the label out, sticking a label on it, printing the label out, sticking a label on it. Then opening came up in the morgue and I was like, OK, this might be fun. Why don't I just go do that? Like, see, it was only like I was a lab assistant. So I wasn't doing much. And then it just was incredible. And then I worked there for years, way up. I was meant to do medicine and become a forensic pathologist, but I quit.

37:19Elizabeth Day:and became a teacher instead. So I didn't actually pursue that, which brought my mum's heart because she was like, I can't believe you are a lowly paid teacher and you could have been a doctor. But yeah, I loved it. It was a great job. What did it teach you? What the job? The hospital morgue, yeah. I guess it taught me resilience. You've got to be taught if you're surrounded by death all the time. It definitely gave me an appreciation for life. It gave me appreciation for human beings because the person, the forensic pathologist I worked with was incredible. The way he treated human beings and the way he treated death was just so beautiful.

37:56Elizabeth Day:Like he saw death as a journey and it was just so, there's something really oddly satisfying by watching a man like treat other people's loved ones with such respect considering they're dead. He never treated them as a specimen. He treated them as loved ones of someone. He doesn't know them he's never going to meet the loved ones he doesn't know the person and he's never going to he's not treating a patient whereas a doctor has to treat a live living patient but he was so he was just so respectful that that taught me the love of human beings like I love humans it's so weird like I have so much love to give for humanity and I think that's definitely where like it was in my 20s and it's definitely where I learned like to love myself but also to love others and like love and also not fear death I guess that's the big one isn't it?

38:47Elizabeth Day:Yeah that's pretty big

39:12Elizabeth Day:every week.

39:12Shabaz Ali:Follow and listen to Reality Gaze wherever you get your podcast.

39:42Shabaz Ali:is the only survivor of a terminal brain illness brought on by heroin use. But there is a lot of mystery and medical malpractice and true crime elements that are very shocking and surprising, and even some supernatural elements. So this is definitely an amazing story. It's very unique. Did such an incredible job telling the story and sharing it with the world. So if you have not listened to it yet, my goodness, where have you been? Because Blink is so freaking good. Thank you. Search for Blink wherever you listen, and subscribers to The Binge will get the entire season ad-free. Plus, you'll get exclusive access to the over 60 other true crime stories on The Binge podcast channel.

40:22Shabaz Ali:Hit subscribe on Apple Podcasts or head to getthebinge.com. Sabrina. Corinne. I have been listening to a new show from The Binge called Fatal Fantasy. I am obsessed. Wait, I need to know more. Tell me. Tell me everything. I will. It's a very shocking. It's like ultra weird crime story of a murder for hire plot that wait for it. Leverage the dynamics of the underworld and underworld being a medieval fantasy game. Wait, so it's live action role playing gone wrong. Horribly wrong. And you can binge all episodes now. Oh my God, that sounds so good. I know what I'm doing on my drive home today. Search for Fatal Fantasy and subscribe to the Binge Podcast channel on Apple Podcasts or at getthebinge.com.

41:09Shabaz Ali:And then once you're done, you can listen to one of the over 60 true crime and investigative podcasts a part of the channel while you wait for the next month's drop. I really need to know what happens. Selfishly, you do so that we can talk about it. So whenever you listen, search for Fatal Fantasy and hit subscribe to The Binge to get all episodes all at once ad-free. What was the first video that went viral for you that you thought, oh, this is going to work?

41:35Elizabeth Day:2022. 2022 so I started like really pursuing it did like my trending topics and videos and rants and whatever that everyone was doing and then I went traveling came back from traveling and I was just in bed and it was like I'm doing I'm like I'm just gonna I saw a video and I thought let me just react to it and it was the ice cubes the I'm rich you're poor that was the first time I said I'm

41:58Shabaz Ali:rich you're poor tell for anyone who hasn't seen it the ice cubes right so it's a bit it's basically

42:03Elizabeth Day:a woman who's who has an entire fridge dedicated to frozen blocks of different shapes and sizes and colors and flavors of ice and she basically makes them up with all these juices and glitters and whatever then puts them into the freezer then takes them out the freezer to then put them back into the freezer in different containers to me that is not a person that has a job right that is an unemployed rich person because let's be honest no one with a job would be doing that as a hobby on the internet. So I was jokingly going on today's episode of I'm rich, you're poor, because clearly I was voicing it over for her.

42:40Elizabeth Day:So I muted her sound and I voiced it over going, today's episode of I'm rich, you're poor. Here's me baking my ice cubes while all you poor people have your fish and fish fingers in the freezer and my, I've got a freezer dedicated to ice. And it just went berserk. Like it went mad. People were just like, this is hilarious. This is so funny and I must have dropped the word povo in there which is a word that we grew up with up north and it's such a normal word such an insulting word to say I just said it because I was being that person I was being that rich person which rich people would say like oh you're powerful you're poor person and it just went super viral and then it just led to being tagged in those kind of videos and I thought oh wow like this is what I saw I knew that was happening like I knew these videos anyway I had I'd made I started making those videos anyway talking about them and then I thought this is what I was this is what I was supposed to be doing yes basically I found my voice in their vote in their videos so I could mute them say what I need to say and have a social commentary in there you know you can't pay your bills why because the government's put the prices up and I could say those things but you know what's so interesting is the northern working class voice and the the mannerisms are what are so celebrated online i definitely will say i am picked up when i'm annoyed or when i'm like in my moment i the northern accent gets ramped up but i find that when people meet me in person they're like you're not as northern as you are online i was like yeah because i'm not online i'm like 100 % fools going full balls to the wall and people love that but it's so funny because that's one thing i hated the most well that's so powerful isn't it it's

44:17Shabaz Ali:this amazing act of reclamation everything you've just said there the empathy the northerness your south asian heritage like everything yeah the even the flamboyancy like even the flamboyancy like

44:30Elizabeth Day:the person i am like the outfits i wear and the the the the flamboyantness of me it's so celebrated people are like you're so funny it's just so incredible that you and i think my god and like going back to the failure, like it's a strength. It's a strength that I took so long to realise that that is my strength. Why did it take me? And I don't regret it, but sometimes I do because I'm like, I wish I'd unlocked that earlier. But then a part of me is like, was I ready for it? Yeah, you wouldn't have been able to. And also you're still only 33, love.

45:04Shabaz Ali:You're still very, very young. You're way ahead of the rest of us. Your final failure, which sort of ties into everything we've been talking about, is waiting for representation to give you permission. I love the way you put that. Growing up, I'm guessing you didn't feel that you had that representation. You didn't see anyone who was like you in your cultural influences. Do you think you do now?

45:28Elizabeth Day:More so, more than it used to be. I think the thing was, growing up, I never saw anybody that looked like me, but it didn't bother me. And I think the thing is, I've said this for, like we talk about unconscious bias, As a South Asian person, I grew up with people not looking like me, but I still found them relatable. I could watch Sabrina the Teenage Witch and think, I want to be a teenage witch, right? I could watch someone, Lizzie McGuire. I could watch, you know, Keenan and Kel. I could watch any person that was not who I was. Wasn't from a South Asian background. Wasn't even British. I was watching American shows.

46:02Elizabeth Day:But you can still relate with them. It feels like if I focused so heavily on my Asian heritage in my social media, I know that outside community wouldn't be like, unless you're from an immigrant background, like a white community wouldn't be, they'd be like, oh, I can't relate with that. I can't relate with that. But you can, you can relate with that. And I've shown now you can relate with me because poverty is universal. Like, and I'm working, Northern class working brown man, but you are laughing along with me. you are relating with me so you can find common ground regardless of the color of the skin why I put that as a failure was because I spent so much time waiting for someone else to be the blueprint until I realized that for some people I am the blueprint and I hadn't realized I was a blueprint until a woman came up to me and said very recently she came up to me and she said my son wanted to be a YouTuber I'll be a creator going to content and he showed me your videos as the blueprint of a successful person who's doing it.

47:05Elizabeth Day:Because growing up, we didn't have that. Even to the likes of like Harry Potter, as jokingly as this is, I wanted to go to Hogwarts. I've loved Harry Potter. And I said, I can't, I said to my mom, I can't, I want to go Hogwarts. My mom said, where is the brown person in Hogwarts? And I was like, oh yeah, until Padman Paravati came along, but there was two of them. We didn't have one, did we? So, and I used that as an example because it was me growing up thinking, oh, well, I don't have it. So then there's no, you can't say to your parents, mom, I'm quitting education, going on a gap year because I want to go discover myself.

47:40Elizabeth Day:Well, who else has done it that is successful?

47:42Shabaz Ali:Yes.

47:43Elizabeth Day:Who else has done that that isn't successful? Tell me. And if they haven't, you are gotten, you've got nowhere to go. Riz Ahmed is one of very few actors that is doing it successfully. But even then, the struggle that that man has, like he is such a talented man. he has done huge movies but is he as famous as timothy chalamet or one of these other people he's not why because his brownness stops him from achieving that that doesn't it but he was a blueprint for us so yeah for every south asian boy or girl like especially from a pakistani or a muslim background you'll ask them you'll say who you want to be an actor who's your blueprint they'll say riz Ahmed but there's because there's not enough of us doing it but now what we're doing is I'm hoping that I'm opening the door up in this world to be like I could be the blueprint I didn't realize that and I was waiting for the next person to do it I can't write a book because who are successful Asian South Asian northern writers where are they there's very few of them that are successful like how many adaptations have you seen on Netflix Prime whatever that have come from a south asian writer yeah very few the publishing world in just in general to me

48:59Shabaz Ali:feels like a middle-class white person thing yes i mean the only person i can think of off the top of my head is satanam sangira he's a good friend of mine but you're right there's like very few

49:08Elizabeth Day:so they are and they're talented but very few that will get given the same level of like praise

49:15Shabaz Ali:but it's a great point that you're making which is at the same time as you're worrying about that you are becoming that for so many others. Yeah, yeah. What are your ultimate ambitions now?

49:28Elizabeth Day:Like, where do you want to take this? Oh, wow, yeah. Writing a book was always one. I think writing a book came just, it happened because I had loads of notes and I thought, oh, let me put this down into a tangible form. But also I really want to get my South Asian community reading. So the book's really an easy read. It's not, you know, it's not a great novel. My book is an easy read. It's in my voice. it's just one of those books where it's not a story it's just a journey it's just a bit of a memoir and a slash fun comedic book which I was like at least it could be a starting point I'm constantly chasing a dream to open the door for other people but I think my ultimate ambition is I want to I guess crime thriller I really want to write one

50:09Shabaz Ali:but you'd be so good at that because of the hospital morgue experience yeah yeah that's it

50:13Elizabeth Day:I really want to write one because I think especially from I really want to write one from a different perspective than what we've seen I think it like it's always like I said to you it's always like middle class people that always go into middle class problems not all of them because there's some really good like even Scottish ones with some really good like working class background ones but I thought they're often written by middle class people though yeah it's always a middle class person going do you know what poverty great can you be really super poor can't shop in Asda you've got to shop in like Aldi and they're really like cliched but I think it's just I think I don't know I have that it's on the bucket list.

50:48Elizabeth Day:I want to write my own comedy show, very Fleabag-esque. And then work a bit more in opening doors. I guess that's what it is. So try and open as many doors as possible and not chop as much as I can on the CV. And remember to settle down and have kids before your mum dies. Yeah, that's very true. God forbid.

51:05Shabaz Ali:Shabazz, I've loved this conversation. I'm so happy you came on How to Fail. Now, given you are a former teacher, I would like you to degrade this conversation how does it how does it feel brilliant you're so good at this and the

51:17Elizabeth Day:reason why you are so successful at this podcast which very few people can do is because you make it so easy to speak to I think you've done I think you know like in all the Stephen Bartlett stuff the world you can probably cut this out but you probably will because you don't want to leave it and clip it yeah yeah on all the male podcasts whether you know that you've got I think there's very few podcasts that I've listened to where the conversations are genuine and I think you I think it's you you come from a genuine place like and you're if you have anyone hasn't read the book at this point read the book it's brilliant like your book is so on par with everything I believe

51:54Shabaz Ali:yeah I'm so happy I slid into your DMs I'm so happy I thought you were going to give me a savage roasting and it would be hilarious but actually you were so genuine and complimentary and that's

52:02Elizabeth Day:really moved me just because if you asked me at the beginning you've obviously like you've set the tone is this really lovely tone i don't think i could be nasty now but um it's great though you've you know it's a good podcast and i think you know like i said in all the podcasts out there this is one that genuinely speaks from a place of of reality and i think we need more of that thank

52:22Shabaz Ali:you so much and keep doing what you do thank you thank you so much coming on how to fail i appreciate

52:27Elizabeth Day:it.

52:34Shabaz Ali:Please do follow How to Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.