Sharon Horgan - ‘My marriage failed but it had such a positive impact on my life’

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0:35welcome to how to fail the podcast that believes as truman capote did that failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor before we get to our guest i wanted to mention our subscriber podcast Failing With Friends, where my guest and I answer your questions and offer advice on some of your failures too. Here's some from Sharon Horgan. I'm good friends with an ex currently and it's really lovely. And I never thought I would be that person. Do join in by following the link in the podcast notes and you can send me an email or look out for my call outs once a month on Instagram for quickfire questions.

1:14Thank you so, so much. In her own words, Sharon Horgan is a late starter. After a childhood spent in Ireland attending a convent school she hated and helping out on her parents' turkey farm in the holidays, Horgan dropped out of art college and worked in a job centre through her 20s before deciding to go to university aged 27 to study English. In her early 30s and single, Horgan lived in a flat share in London, experiences that informed Pulling, a sitcom she co-wrote with Dennis Kelly, which won a cult following and a BAFTA nomination. In her 40s, she wrote and starred in the hit show Catastrophe and co-created the TV series Motherland.

2:00But it was Bad Sisters, created in her 50s, that sent Haugen's career stratospheric. The dark comedy about five siblings brought together by determination to save their sister from the clutches of her abusive husband, won a Peabody Award, four Emmy nominations, and a 100 % approval rating on Rotten Tomatoes. Season two premiered last November. Still only 54, you have to wonder... No, I meant that genuinely, because it's very young.

2:37Still only 54, you'd have to wonder if Horgan's early experiences of not quite finding her place in the world have shaped her uncanny ability to craft complex, compelling and heartfelt characters who find comedy even in the darkest situations. As she puts it, I didn't want to be insignificant, so I made people laugh. Young Sharon Horgan, whippersnapper. That was so funny. Welcome to How to Fail. Just a baby of 54. I do mean that though. Such a weird number. It feels so weird saying it. I can imagine it feels weird but I did mean that because of how much you've created. Yeah. How many hit shows you've got under your belt.

3:22You're something of a workaholic aren't you? I suppose. I think so. Does work make you happy? Yeah, oh, it definitely does. I mean, it's sometimes chaotic. Like this morning when I got out of the bus, Holly Walsh, who were making this new series called Amanda Land, which is a spinoff of Motherland, texted me and said, where are your notes for episode six? So I was like doing my notes for episode six on the way over here. And when I finish here, I go and have a meeting with a new young writer. and it's sometimes too much. And, you know, I've just come off the press tour for Bad Sisters and I should just be lying down.

4:05But I was, you know, I was doing the notes on the way over here and really enjoying it. Like it gives me a buzz. And I know that even though I'm stressing about going to meet this new young writer, it'll be great and I'll enjoy it because that's the kind of thing that gets me really excited, you know. But I don't know. I enjoy it so much that it kind of feels like sometimes just leisure. I feel the same. And I think actually I don't really agree with the term workaholic. And I'm trying to reclaim the idea of busy. Right. Because actually I really lean into that and I love work. There are evenings that I would rather be working than seeing anyone else.

4:40I totally agree. Yeah. But you're not allowed to say that. No. It seems weird, doesn't it? That idea of wanting to make people laugh to prove your significance. I want what was the first time you can remember being really proud that you'd made someone laugh well it was my mother it was my mother and I completely remember it she has a great sense of humor and and so did my dad but you know she wasn't like a big laugher you know she wouldn't sort of roll over and belly laugh but we had these um do you remember those masks you used to get Halloween there's like a little piece of elastic and so anyway I put on this cat mask And I just made like a cat, just trying to, you know, be physically funny for her.

5:23And she rolled over like proper belly laughing, whatever it was. I was just being a clown for her. so that that really stuck in my head because when you're one of five you kind of need to find your thing you know you either have to be I don't know the very responsible one or the very caring one or the one who's great at sports or you know so I guess I was I was the second eldest so it was kind of I guess hard to find your thing that made you stand out so for me it was just making them laugh so playing eva in bad sisters who is the eldest and has a very maternal relationship with her younger sisters she's the one who takes care of them who gets shit done who's there as an aunt which i really valued seeing on screen thank you because she doesn't have her own children and so actually there was something so meaningful about that for me to watch was that wish fulfillment for you well it was in a way because i really loved the idea of playing someone who was a good person and a non-selfish person and i mean i never sort of thought this but my especially my eldest daughter uh well she tells me that i always play assholes and i guess what I generally play are women who are can be selfish and and and can be flawed and that kind of thing and make bad choices and that's fine like I love them for it and there's loads of me in all of those women and so there's less of me in Eva I think and and I put a lot of my older sister into her.

7:07And in fact, my sister did end up becoming a mum. She met and fell in love with someone quite late in her life, but she had gotten to a point where she wasn't going to have kids and was kind of okay, was making herself okay with that. And I mean, there's loads of people who I think probably it's a good thing for them not to have kids. it's not right for them but I knew for her it you know she was kind of a born mother and I felt like it was really important that that happened for her so with Eva I kind of kind of using that part of my sister that if she hadn't had a kid she would have still been this incredible maternal matriarch kind of person so important in all of our lives I mean my eldest sister is godmother to my youngest brother such an Irish thing but yeah just someone I liked her being someone who had made peace with it and continued to sort of mother in in other ways you know it's one of the things that has always struck me about your work that even when you write or play mothers it's not excluding in any way.

8:26And maybe that's because you have this experience of knowing what your older sister went through, but it's a very rare quality. And I'm not quite sure how you do it, but it's really beautifully done. And you also show different ways of parenting. And I just wanted to thank you for that. As someone who doesn't have children and who has tried and failed, but knows that there are other ways to mother, it's really refreshing to see that on screen. Truly. Talking of your youngest brother Mark he said this thing in your you did relative values in the Sunday Times oh yeah and he said this thing and it was a very loving piece obviously but he calls you a hard knock to crack he said that when you first met his partner it was huge hugs for him and Saoirse went in for one too but Sharon put her hand out to shake it where is that shyness yeah I think it is actually I think it's a weird mixture definitely started out as shyness and then I think when I started doing this job and you know making tv and being a bit sort of front-facing there was that a sort of awkwardness that came with you know walking into a room and what people expected you to be versus who you actually are do you know what I mean so so I suppose I did sort of put on a bit of a front and so I think it's a weird kind of mixture now it's like half of it is like a self-preservation thing and half of it is shyness and then when I warm up it's all good Bad Sisters does this very clever thing of treading a line between sadness and comedy which again is a recurring theme in so much of your work how do you know that you've got that right do you sometimes think in the writer's room oh this is too dark yeah all the time I mean Rob and I used to Delaney yeah Rob Delaney who I made catastrophe with definitely the same with Bad Sisters like writing about an abusive relationship and like where you sort of when where and when you straddle the comedy when you use it when you avoid it how how you know how long you go without getting a laugh how quickly you can have a joke directly after something terrible happening which I feel like is a tricky thing to get right but in life it's it's almost immediate you know I mean you never really stop using humor as a you know as a defense mechanism or as a tool or as relief it's just like relief isn't it sort of laugh after something terrible has happened.

11:14Well, thank you on behalf of everyone who's seen themselves represented on screen through your work. I think it's a very powerful thing. Let's get on to your first failure, however. Enough of the success. Your first failure is art college slash drama school. So tell us about this and why you picked it. I found it really hard to do this, by the way. But that's always so lovely in a way for me to hear because it means that you know the podcast. I know that you've really thought about it thank you well I mean I chose it because it did really feel like my first failure was art college because I dropped out and like I didn't even see it through the the first year and at the time it was sort of it was so important to to get in and it took so much effort and plenty of places had had turned me down but eventually I got into the College of Marketing and Design in Dublin and I felt so out of my depth from the off I probably shouldn't have got in I think what I was I was sort of a late admission so someone had sort of dropped out and there was a place so I got in and immediately I was aware that it was not for me there were so many talented artists there so I was in like you know I was I was the worst in in the class and I couldn't I couldn't deal with it I found it really hard and I'd sort of I'd moved to Dublin and I moved into an apartment with two girls who were lovely but I didn't really know them that well and I'd saved up I worked in the summer working in um as a chambermaid in London and in a few pubs in the evenings you've had so many odd jobs I didn't I didn't even know about the chambermaid oh yeah I knew about the head shop in Camden yeah Yeah, chambermaid and barmaid in the evenings.

13:07Okay, sorry, interrupted. In the city as well. Being a barmaid in a pub in the city is not for the faint-hearted. Yeah, so I'd saved up all this money and, you know, starting out in this new adventure, new flat, going to art college. And I kind of knew as soon as I was there I was going to, I wasn't sure I was going to, like, make it through. So I was doing, this is like the beginning of my kind of workaholic kind of nature that I was doing. I'd got into this drama school at the weekends. So I was doing art college all week and then doing drama at the weekends. And it all just sort of, I don't know, I think it was also, you know, you're 19 and, you know, it's such a difficult time, isn't it?

13:53I don't know if you remember being 19, but it's a really tricky time. It just built up and built up and I kind of lost my marbles a bit I got really depressed yeah I could just start taking antidepressants which is really you know I didn't know anyone who was doing that at the time it was kind of not something people really spoke about but I remember my mum just being like really worried and taking me to see a psychiatrist and got me on some antidepressants and I just dropped out and I thought the only way I could get around that was just leave the country like you know this weird thing of like if I just leave no one's going to sort of notice that I've failed so um yeah I went to London and uh and yeah just got a job and a job I'm so sorry you went through that because it sounds so lonely and I wonder if there was part of it for you having grown up as one of five with this incredibly tight and loving family unit that felt at sea being apart from them?

15:07I don't know, because my sister lived in, my sister was at Trinity College and she lived in Dublin at the time. And, you know, but I think it's just, you get separated from your friends for the most part, don't you? You're like, usually you don't end up going to the same college as your besties. So they're, you know, they're all sort of scattered in Belfast and Huddersfield and you know going to these different unis and so it was like starting over without those friendships as well and then I think it's just really tricky to to feel like you're failing at something I think it's really tricky to be in a situation where you feel like there was a mistake made and you shouldn't be there and then on top of that it's just really difficult being a teenager Yes.

15:53And you mentioned that your mother was worried about you. So did you speak to your parents about it? Not really. I mean, they sort of know. I remember I came out of my coffee shop job and they were parked in whatever Toyota they were driving at the time. They were parked out the front and they never came up to Dublin. But it was kind of like a sort of intervention kind of thing. Yeah, it was just a very tricky, weird time. Yeah, and I can feel it still now, you talking about it. It sounds scary. It's weird because I haven't thought about it in so long.

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17:44when I went to um London I I just thought well I'll get into I'll do the drama school thing properly and and do that and then I'll you know prove myself and all that other stuff won't matter but I I applied to every drama school in London and went to all of them and auditioned and didn't get in so I think that was the thing that sort of floored me a bit you know I think And that's why I sort of ended up working in a job centre for six years. Yeah. And how did you feel being told at that stage, oh, your dream is not for you? How did that feel? Well, I think the weird thing is that I probably, I probably just thought it was a dream anyway.

18:27You know, I probably didn't think it was a real thing that I could ever do. So it probably made some sort of weird sense, you know. and my my reaction to it was to you know like not go back to Ireland for two years like seems so weird now like for two years not even for Christmases I was so like oh I'll just you know stay here and maybe no one will notice you know I was also sort of plotting you know I was also trying to figure out how I could like turn it all around you know so that I could go back with some kind of pride and it was actually my older sister who came to the rescue because she knew that I'd started writing she put me in touch with a producer that she'd started making documentaries and you know so she's sort of had a few sort of contacts and in roads and stuff and uh so she put me in touch with someone who was connected to comedy at the BBC and then I got in touch with them and that's sort of what got the ball rolling a bit and you went back home for Christmas yeah yeah yeah we see at that stage my my little brother had started playing rugby for and and like having this sort of high achieving family was amazing but also sort of shone a light on me and my squat in london working the job center you know i was kind of a bit ashamed i I mean, that really drove me.

19:56And then sort of reconnecting with Dennis Kelly and, you know, when we started writing together and filming stuff and, you know, we started actively sort of being creative. He was also, by the way, in shit, shared accommodation, doing a job he hated. Kind of like that's how pulling came about, you know, because we were both in these very unsatisfactory situations across the board, like bad relationships. not great housing situation and jobs we hated. But that's like, you know, we figured a lot of people would relate to that because a lot of people come to London to find their thing and sometimes you just get a bit lost in it, you know.

20:39And like the way we sort of described it was, you know, you're in one of the greatest cities in the world, but you're in the shittest part with no funds to get to the good bit. I feel like if I'd had success very early, it would have been a completely different journey for me everything that happened went into the writing and you know whatever it is this sort of dark way of looking at the world but also finding it funny sort of informed informed everything I do you know so really grateful all that it's so true that it informs everything you do and it's also kind of uncanny how your writing then tends to reflect what happens in your life yeah so pulling and then catastrophe which was loosely based on you getting pregnant within six months of yeah meeting your ex-husband yeah motherland your experiences at the school gates and then divorce will come on to that your show with sarah jessica parker and i know that when you were filming season two of bad sisters your dad died yeah and i'm so sorry because he sounds like an amazing person yeah and so much of season two from what i've seen of it yeah is about grief yeah did you find that helpful or difficult or both um definitely both my little brother mark he sent me um a text the other day because he just watched episode five.

22:12And in episode five, it's kind of Eva's story and how she's dealing with her grief. And then we have this sort of karaoke scene where all the sisters get together and they think about Grace and they sing the song. All of that was filmed after Dad died. And Marky said that he loved the episode, but he found it really difficult to watch. and I was saying well because everything I was feeling went into those scenes you know so in some ways it's great and it's cathartic and you can connect with your feelings and you can express them but in other ways it feels so weird because essentially you're kind of using your emotions and it feels like strange and a bit like wrong but I remember trying to explain this to someone but um when I was at my dad's funeral I had this weird like sort of muscle memory that I sort of done it before um but you do when you're when you're an actor you you're it's such a weird job you know you're you're you know experiencing I mean you're you're playing heartache grief grief, all these sort of anger, extreme emotions, and you're sort of living them in that moment.

23:39You're putting your body under this incredible sort of strain. And that's what I was feeling at the funeral. I was like, I sat with an actor playing my dad dying, you know, before, and that really blew my mind. I was like, this can be a bit unhealthy, this job. It was weird going back to work. In the end, we had to shut down the production because I couldn't just I'm gonna get upset oh no Sharon there's tissues now okay okay oh I'm so sorry I'm so sorry it's so weird yeah does that sound like a psycho thing to say that you've done this before deep you know but I guess just being together is such a huge part of it you know the of the healing is just being together myself and Shane and Lorraine after dad died we would they're my two brothers and sisters that are in London we would just go and find these whatever shitty pub we thought my dad might really like and then and just go to that pub and sort of drink some Guinness and talk about him and then just get on with our lives and it was the most intense, awful thing.

24:52But, you know, we all got to be with him. We all were there, like all the family and all our partners and kids. And, you know, so we had, you know, like a beautiful goodbye. I'm so sorry. And I think what you've said there about being together, being the healing is profoundly beautiful. Your second failure is an audition that you did for Jim Sheridan's The Field. Yeah. A movie that came out in 1990. So what stage are you at now in your career? Are you living in Camden? No, no. It was just before I left. It was just after that whole art college debacle. So I had this kind of wild boyfriend when I was 18.

25:39He got a car and a bunch of us were sort of driving around Dublin being lunatics. It's a terrible, terrible thing. But he was just, he was kind of wild and a risk taker. And he, so this is terrible to tell this. I'm already in love with this story. I don't know. It's already taken a tangent. So it was a bunch of us in the back of the car and he was doing this sort of Russian roulette thing where he would drive, like there was this crossroads and he would like drive straight straight across without stopping and and to get the buzz of yeah getting through without crashing or any our cars come along it was it was really actually really really frightening but he did it and we had such a a relief you know I remember just being in the car and just thinking shit we're still alive that was insane and we were all like sort of whooping and then the car he lost control of the car immediately after that and hit a wall and the car was accordioned whatever you call that it was destroyed and somehow we all got out of it relatively unscathed except I had my arm was like entirely bruised the whole thing was like the most glorious bruise you've ever seen so I was sitting in a you know I was a bit of a hippie at the time became kind of a bit grungy, bit hippy.

27:08And I had this huge bruise on my arm and I was sitting in this coffee shop in Dublin sort of trying to figure out how I could not go back to class. And then Jim Sheridan was in that coffee shop and he came up to me and he said, I'm making this film. Would you come in and audition? So it was for this gypsy girl who was like sort of the female lead, but it was still like, it was all, it was like Richard Harris and John Hurt, like an amazing cast. So I guess I look kind of a bit like, you know, a wild gypsy. And I'd never, I mean, I thought about it, you know, but it was very much in the distance, sort of like a dream.

27:51And I couldn't believe that I was, you know, being given this opportunity. And so I completely overthought it. I'd never done an audition before. I was absolutely terrified but he gave me the number of his producer who was like Noel Pearson I think and I don't know I mean maybe he went up to girls all the time and coffee shops and offered them auditions but I just kept calling this number I was like and the more I couldn't kind of get through or get hold of anyone the more I was like no I'm gonna do this thing so anyway finally I got hold of them and they sent me the pages and I turn up for the audition and I did it and it went terribly But I walked out of the audition.

28:31I was like, yeah, I want to do that. What an extraordinary thing to happen. Yeah, it was wild. Weird things like that happened to me all the time when I was in Dublin. It was so bizarre. You were a bit of a witch. Yeah, maybe a little bit. The fact that that audition went badly, did that make you... You sort of knew you wanted to do it, but did it also sow the seed of wanting to write your own material so you wouldn't have to audition? No, no, not that. I mean, I'd already started writing a little bit here and there, but not taking it too seriously. No, I think what it did was, I'm kind of like this even now, when something goes badly, I'm immediately like, right, I need to fix that.

29:12Like, I need to get better at that thing. And for me never to be in that situation again, never to feel that sort of at my depth. so it's it makes sense to me now that i had that that feeling off the back of it you know and i think because of art college not working out and wanting to get away i kind of thought well maybe this is it like i go to london and i that's when i tried to get into all the drama skills and stuff

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30:33Do you feel you've proved yourself now to yourself when you look at your body of work? Yeah. Good. Yeah. I mean, it's such a weird question to be asked now because if you'd asked me even a couple of years ago and that's with a lot of shows under my belt and you know a successful production company and no no reason to to feel like I've you know an imposter but it really is very very recent that I've sort of allowed myself to feel like I know what I'm doing you know there's a confidence there that um I really appreciate actually because it's it's not great to be walking around feeling like you've sort of snuck in and well no one's noticed so far that I'm I'm sort of winging it it's it's much it's exhausting it's much better to feel like you should be in those rooms and you know what what's been behind that shift is that just time I think it is I think it's I think it's like a body of work building up yeah and affirmations I guess from people I admire and I suppose like the people I've ended up sort of working with and and as bad sisters really you know it was sort of getting that that felt like a quite a massive thing and then pulling it off you know you know us as a company had never made anything of that sort of size as well.

32:05And this is your production company Merman which we haven't even mentioned which is a hugely successful production company that you co-founded in 2014. Yeah yeah it's amazing. So, you know, it was a big confidence boost for us as a company and then for me personally, you know. And yeah, I guess it's just that feeling of, you know, when I'm working on other people's projects and I've kind of found a really good balance of what I get very involved in. I feel like I know I can be additive, you know, I know what I'm doing in each of those situations. And yes, just it's much more relaxing than worrying all the time.

32:45I love hearing that. I love hearing it. The worry is still there. I mean, it's still like when I start a new project, the fear and adrenaline is still there with that. But I think it would be so weird for that not to be there. And I'm not sure how much I'd benefit from that. You know, you've got to feel like you're learning all the time. You have to be open to continue to learn. otherwise I don't know otherwise you're you're a monster you know you I don't I don't know that that's what I'd ever want to be like I'm absolutely definite that you know I I I know it all and I'll have the last say I don't think I'll ever be that person I always really need input and other great creative people around me definitely that means you're not Donald Trump so yeah yeah your third failure is your marriage yeah yeah I thought that'd be a fun one yes well we were chatting before we started recorded about the fact that we're both divorced and there is something I think radically important about people who are willing to say my relationship was not a failure just because it ended yeah but it did feel like a failure yes so talk to us about about what because you were together with your ex for many years you have two wonderful daughters yeah and just talk me through the course of that relationship and how you both decided that it was well I mean I guess it was one of those things that was a long time coming and I feel like it's weirdly connected to confidence as well or also that thing of what you should do versus you know what your body tells you and your brain tells you you you you ought to do but um it's like it's like the catastrophe story you kind of we we we got together we we had a baby you know and we made it work for a long time and um we had another baby and you know we you know he was involved in in in the business and but there came a point where it was so clear that it it wasn't wasn't right for either of us and it kind of I guess you know I don't know whether it's being slightly bit catholic some of that stuff still being in me was just that idea of not not getting divorced or like you just you don't get divorced you just kind of I was talking to Rob about it like you know our partners have to do something so like just stay in it it's so much harder to go through all that you know to go through a divorce and listen it's true and weirdly when I was making divorce the show I hadn't gone through it so I was kind of you know using other people's experiences and and the idea that anyone who's been married knows what it's like to want a divorce but I had I had no idea it's a it's an odd one because I've never been happier but I'm still angry at myself for not for the actually not really for the failure of the marriage but for not figuring it out earlier it's so destructive I think and I mean you know you get one life and it's that's an awful lot of time to spend on something that's not working and And I don't know what kind of conditioning it is that sort of got so in the way of what my instinct was and what would have been good for everyone.

36:26So it's a weird one because, yes, it failed, but it had such a positive impact on my life. I think the stuff that's less fun is the business of divorce. it's debilitating time-consuming money drain you know it's it's it's not fun for anyone and how do you find it being a parent in the wake of your divorce because that was something that I never had to deal with I didn't have children with my ex and I often think that would be so that much the stakes are so much higher yeah so how yeah how is it being a co-parent Oh, there's no co-parenting. It's just me. It's just me. It was more sort of like how it impacted when we sort of told the girls.

37:18And like, I have this recurring image of my youngest daughter on her own crying. like when she was crying with us I think that's you know we were able to talk and talk it out and explain how it was going to be and but sort of seeing your you know she left and went into another room and that was like that's going to stay with me forever but three hours later we were out shopping and you know life goes on and they're so resilient kids are amazing how they weather storms are is incredible I think what I'd sort of lost sight of was how important it is for them to see a working relationship you know um like a healthy working relationship and I'd sort of got things out of order I think in my head it was like you know like be a family because that's that's what you should be and really it's not it's you family can be any sort of shape and size and it's much much better for them to see me happy and and and to be in a healthy environment and but they are they're great they you know we're quite open as family and we talk it all out and you know we laugh about things and we just get on with it and and also park it as well you know as much as possible because it's important that doesn't sort of overshadow anything you know it's just that it is what it is i don't know if you'll relate to this at all but i i'm sometimes asked about how you know that your relationship is over like how you get to a point where you can dismantle this institution that seems to carry so much social expectation on it and I felt that it took me a while to work out that I knew and then one day it was like my body took over it was just like the instinct just kicked in yeah and I didn't it wasn't logic it wasn't head thinking through everything I just knew that it had to end was there a point that you felt like oh no this has to yeah definitely yeah yeah I mean you know because I'm sure we both thought about it for ages and had those conversations we had those conversations for ages but but absolutely that yeah there was a point and then from that point on I was there was no going back clarity yeah and it's such a it's such a massive move to make that you do need that clarity in order to move forward with it you know I kind of had an inkling that it was just gonna take over for years and it did and you need full-on clarity that it's the right thing to do I'm very struck by what you said at the beginning of this failure which is that you still that you feel angry at yourself yeah for not having called it sooner yeah right that's that's being very harsh on yourself yeah isn't it do you think that's the convent school upbringing as well yeah I think I am for a generally kind of happy person I'm really good at dwelling on the wrong thing you know so instead of it instead of the the positives I kind of I look back and I'm a bit I'm a bit of a if only kind of person no I mean I suppose it is being harsh but I feel like I deserve it Sharon?

41:10Yeah What an idiot You're doing it again Not an idiot Like a lovable Flawed human Yeah Who deserves compassion Like all of the rest of us Yeah I guess that as well And you have your two amazing daughters Oh no I mean that's all That's Yeah Obviously You don't have to tell me Anything about it But I just want to know If you're seeing someone Romantically Oh Yeah yeah yeah Great good I mean you can tell me stuff about it if you'd like no that's okay okay just checking yeah it's been such a delight to talk to you thank you and I wanted to ask you sometimes I think this is the most boring question but with you I don't think it is boring but it's about what you're going to work on next and the reason I don't think it's boring for you is because you have this history of predicting your own life yeah or predicting what's in the cultural zeitgeist almost before it happens so what's percolating at the moment in Horgan's brain well I mean it's it's sort of very beginning stages but it is this stage of life because I'm building a show around that because it's uh it's an amazing time in life but it's also the most difficult and I feel like anytime I've sort of written about you know a place and time in my own life and it's it's like a kicking off point it's an inspiration it's not you know completely autobiographical but I feel like it's a really good driver and you know I feel like I've got something to say about what it is to be a woman of my age in this particular situation like I love I love writing about relationships it's it's my most favorite thing I think they're so delicate and intricate and and fun things to um observe and and write about so I mean there's so many other things that I'm working on that are you know merman things and I could give you much more solid answers things that are going to be on the deli but like that's the thing that's yeah percolating in my brain the most why don't you write a show about you being a billionaire and see if that comes true.

43:28That's a great idea. There you go. Have that for free. I think we've got enough billionaires there. We've got enough billionaire shit out there. Not enough female ones. That's true. Just talk to me quickly about your 50s. Still only 54. Yeah, just the tender age. The tender age. Yeah. What have they represented to you? Because obviously bad sisters and that feeling of confidence, that's part of your 50s. Yeah. Just throw out a few words. What are your 50s like? Like, wow. I mean, they're definitely exciting and way more exciting than I thought they'd be. And the whole confidence thing is definitely something I didn't have in my 40s, which is weird because there's so many things that I genuinely and vainly get frustrated about.

44:13I hate when my knees hurt. I hate when I don't. I mean, I've got so much energy. It's weird. I think I'm sort of, I think hormones are driving me, you know, I'm on everything. You look great. But, you know, I hate the visual representation of aging. It really bothers me because, oh, just, you know, because of natural vanity, but also because I don't feel like that, you know, and I'm sure everyone says this, but that's why the number feels weird. because inside I'm just like, I have like puppy dog levels of energy. So it's kind of scary. I would say scary as well. There's a weird connection with your mortality when you lose a parent as well.