Sir Paul Smith - ‘People In Fashion Are Insecure’

0:00It's everybody else that's noticed I'm 80. You know, if nobody had told me, I wouldn't have made any difference. They say, oh, Paul's job. Yes, head of happiness. That's my job. What a great time. I do clothes as well. Yeah. I was leaving home with my mum and dad and suddenly I had a lady from London with two children, two dogs and two cats. So it was quite a move forward. Hello and welcome to How To Fail with me, Elizabeth Day. This is the podcast that believes you can dress for success, but only if you've understood your failures first. Before we get into this conversation, please do remember to like, follow and subscribe so that you never miss a single episode.

0:47home is one of those things i really care about it's where i write it's where i decompress it's where my husband and i debrief after a hectic day so i am obsessed with making it feel nice and there's been one thing in our sitting room that has driven me mad for ages and that's the rug it's just too small and it's kind of floating in the middle of the room and i've known it's not right for ages but not quite done anything about it. Then I discovered Ernesta, who make designer quality rugs custom cut to the exact dimensions of your space. You simply send Ernesta's design team photos and the dimensions of your room and they'll help you work out exactly what size you need, completely free of charge.

1:29They then cut and finish your rug to order and can deliver it in as little as two weeks. Visit Ernesta.com and order five samples for only$10 and you'll get a $50 towards any rug of your choice. That's E-R-N-E-S-T-A dot com. Fall never arrives all at once. First the air, then the light. And slowly the things you love begin to find each other. A jacket meets a dress. A hoodie slips beneath a blazer. An old cap finds a new scarf. Because you don't simply step into the season. You create it layer by layer until it finally feels like fall. Find fall your way at Ross. Sir Paul Smith is one of Britain's most iconic fashion designers, renowned for his sharp tailoring and his sartorial flair.

2:25His winks of mischief, brightly coloured suit linings, an affinity for stripes are part of what give his classic clothes a uniquely modern perspective. Although probably too modest to claim the label, he's also a revolutionary. In the 1990s, he was one of the first designers to print photographs on fabric, and he's also credited with reinventing the humble boxer short. The youngest of three children, Sir Paul's father was a draper. It was his dad who took his youngest son to work as an errand boy in a Nottingham clothing warehouse after the young Paul left school at 15 with no formal qualifications.

3:04Initially, Sir Paul wanted to be a cyclist, but a serious road accident at the age of 17 put paid to those ambitions. He began taking evening classes in tailoring and was later spotted by the Savile Row tailor Harold Tillman, who offered him a job. In 1970, he and his wife Pauline opened their first shop in his hometown of Nottingham. His first full menswear collection was shown in Paris six years later. By the year 2000, he had established a globally successful business and was awarded a knighthood. His devoted clients include Gary Oldman, Bill Nighy and Matty Healy, who wore a Paul Smith suit to his recent wedding.

3:45And as if that weren't enough, Sir Paul has even had a tram named after him. His new memoir, Threads, My Life in Style, paints a picture of a man who is a lifelong observer and who built a world by paying attention. As Sir Paul puts it, I always say that you can find inspiration in everything. And if you can't, look again. Sir Paul Smith, welcome to How to Fail. That was a very, very nice introduction. Very posh. Well, good one. It said very, what was it, smart or elegant, sartorial. And I'm in a purposely washed suit today. You look wonderful. So more relaxed today. You always look wonderful.

4:33And I must say, I am wearing one of my many Paul Smith suits. I know, you look great. Yeah, I think I look relaxed. No, you look great. And I want to give you a personal thank you because Paul Smith suits have been a mainstay of my wardrobe ever since I launched this podcast. And it's partly because when I first did a live How to Fail show, your amazing team, and they are amazing, you work with great people, and that comes from the top, reached out and said, we'd like to dress you. And I discovered the joy of great tailoring. Yes, I mean, and that's the background of Portsmouth, really, tailoring, mostly because of what you described, night school.

5:18And Pauline, of course, who was my teacher at home, who studied couture, fashion at the Royal College of Arts. So I had two good aspects of training, really. I also just want to thank you for designing for women, because that was something that came along a bit later, wasn't it? You realised that 15 % of your client base was female. That's right, yes. And it was Grace Coddington, the well-known lady from British Vogue and American Vogue, a stylist, who just kept putting people in Paul Smith men's clothes. And then one day she was saying, yeah, we do need occasionally a skirt or we do need occasionally a coat that sort of fits a bit more correctly.

6:06and that was how I started really. But I love that androgynous sort of masculine look and so Paul Smith's women's is essentially tailoring really. When you're fitting someone for a suit, do you feel that you get to know them? It's important to get to know them because it's important to know, especially in today's world, since COVID, when so many people are not wearing tailoring. You know, they sort of spent time at home in hoodies and things. So getting them back into more structured clothes. But that's why the suit I'm wearing, for instance, has no structure. It's washed and it purposely created for all those men and ladies that have over the years think, oh, well, it's too rigid.

6:59A suit is too rigid. And so we're saying yes, but you can make a suit which is more relaxed as well. Do you get to know their insecurities as well? I mean, yes. We do, of course, we have ready to wear. That means off the peg. And we do make to measure, which is where you can make things fairly accurate for most bodies. and then we do a full bespoke, which is that's where you get to know people's characters. And that's obviously quite expensive these days because it's all handmade. There's three fittings and that's where you start to learn why. When you think you're using this, is it for business?

7:45Do you tend to want to look very elegant and smart or are you more of a relaxed person? And are you likely to wear it with a crisp white shirt and a tie or a denim shirt? Is it difficult to make a suit for someone you don't like? Actually, I'm a very strange person because I like people. So, you know, you don't like their politics or their behaviour or their bad manners. But essentially, they're a human being. So try to behave. I've been concentrating on making suits and tailoring. But of course, Paul Smith is a globally successful business. We've been going for 56 years, still independent, absolutely phenomenal achievement.

8:29And I really loved that quote that you gave about paying attention to find inspiration. And one of the things that I know many people will associate with Paul Smith is that bright pink store in Los Angeles. Tell us the story of how that came about. I mean, the joy of independence is the fact that you can think, hmm, maybe I'll build a pink shoebox on Melrose Avenue. And the only person you ask is the guy when you're shaving in the morning and you see yourself in the mirror. Melrose Avenue is about 20 miles long. Los Angeles is flat and wide, about 40 miles across. Almost everybody drives. So I thought that if I'm putting a shop in this city, then it's got to be a sore thumb.

9:21It's got to be a big statement. So I've always been in love with a Mexican architect called Luis Barragan, who is famous for his color. So Pauline and I, my wife and I, went to Mexico City to look at his home that he built, some chapel, some ranch. They were always in bright colors. And so that's how it came about. And now it's the most Instagrammed wall in California and probably in America. It's ridiculous how many, I think about 400 people a day. Amazing. Yeah, I mean, that was all by chance. Yeah. And stripes, that's another thing people associate with you. Are you sick of them? No. The stripes became my logo without, you know, by default, really.

10:13because in the 90s I just created a stripe that had lots of colours in it, thinking it was just for one season. It was a summer season. And then in the winter I didn't include it in the collection. And then several of the retailers that buy from us saying, where's the stripe? Where's the stripe? And I said, oh, I only did it for one season. No, we want it again. We want it again. And then suddenly it became the stripe. and any logo, any logo, I would imagine at some point becomes a bit of a burden or you feel like you want to reinvent it because it's attached to a period of time or something, which in fact did happen to me, I can't remember how many years ago now, when I completely stopped it, which was an incredibly foolish thing to do financially.

11:06I mean, that's a good failure. Yeah, it cost me five million quid, I seem to remember. And everybody was going, oh, he's taking the stripe away. He's mad. But what happened is it was mostly primary colors and I thought it looked too crude. And so, yes, it was a dangerous thing to do. But I redesigned it in more gentle colors and continue it. But the key thing is using it with care. Yes. You've got a few things like an entire sweater, which is very popular actually. But often it's just a little piece of a lining or tiny thing. You turned 80 in July. Sorry, was that me? Was that me? Which I actually can't believe at all.

11:57I mean, what's your secret, Sir Paul? You do seem so vibrant and vital and you're still going to the shop every week. Yep, Saturday boy. Saturday boy. How does it feel being 80? I mean, honestly, it's everybody else that's noticed I'm 80. You know, if nobody had told me, I wouldn't have made any difference. That's a burden as well, you know, because people obviously rather beautifully want to celebrate for you and send you cards and have parties and things. And I was like, no, no, I'm fine, I'm fine. And they've sneaked a few little events in without me knowing. But it's just a number, I think, for me.

12:43Luckily, so far, is there any award here? Yeah, here we go. Yeah, so far, you know, active, very active, big cyclist, pilates, swim every morning at five. I've always done that, not for any other reason, just that I quite like doing it, you know. So hopefully I can still put my leg into the air. Stop it. This is amazing. If you're listening to this podcast rather than watching it, Sir Paul has just lifted with total ease his leg up in a balletic posture by his ear. That's extremely impressive. I'm not going to try and echo it. But talking of cycling and of fitness brings us on to your first failure, which is that cycling accident that I mentioned in the introduction.

13:24Yeah. So you loved cycling from a young age. Yes, I mean it started really, life, I honestly can't really, which is mentioned in the book actually, I had a lovely childhood but I can't really remember it. My sister is eight years older and my brother was 11 years older and life really began at 11 for me for two reasons. One is my father bought me a camera because he was an amateur photographer. That was amazing because using a camera, that's about looking and seeing. But the other thing he bought me was a bicycle. And it was a second-hand bicycle. And the chap that we bought it from said, I'm a member of the local cycle club.

14:10If your lad wants to come out on what they call the club runs at the weekend, he's always welcome. Don't worry, we'll take care of him. because I was by that time 11 and a half or 12. No, 11. Still 11. And then so I started going out on the weekends and then you'd go out looking around. I'm looking around, everybody, left and right, and saying, there's no parents. Yeah. It was sort of strange and wonderful that you're out with about 20 people and doing 40 miles or 50 miles and eventually more. and that there was an amazing feeling so then they persuaded me to start racing at 12 uh because they have three categories in cycling a school boy junior and then the grown-ups and so I started a school boy then I had a junior license and then as many many people uh know I had a an accident where I hit a car or the car hit me at 17.

15:15And that's where my life, that's why I'm here probably with you. Before we get back to that, I'm very interested by what you said there about the sense of freedom. And it's definitely something I, as an amateur cyclist, always feel on a bicycle because you're so in the environment and that whoosh of fresh air and being able to watch everything go by. but the experience you had of childhood was essentially that of an only child because your siblings were much older, weren't they? So was there a sort of quietness to your household? Yeah. People often ask me about my parents. And my father had a lovely character, really good with people, and hopefully I get some of that from him.

15:58And my mum, if you want to say, oh, my mum. My mum was a mum and she had a lovely voice. And that's what I really remember from her. So it was a very quiet childhood, but with this quite creative dad who's a photographer and has a hobby. And had a dark room in the attic, which we had to climb a little ladder to get to. And he built, of course, my father did everything himself. not for financial reasons just because he could do it You said also that your mother you inherited a kind of conflict avoidance from her Yes Yes I definitely I think it's a good thing and a bad thing I think from a business point of view I don't think it's with the public I think it's been a great thing but in house it's probably me not being very confrontational and sometimes addressing problems not that we've had many but um it's probably considered a weakness really and and of course my clothes are designed in a non-confrontational manner whereas you know when we were starting there was vivian westwood around that time john paul gautier a lot of famous designers that were very designing very very outrageous clothes whereas mine that's why the a term classic with a twist came about because, you know, if you look inside something, there's always the little secret, like on the back of your waistcoat that you're wearing, the gilet that you're wearing has got a very beautiful printed photograph, actually, from my father, actually.

17:44That's one of your father's photographs? Yeah, of something that we've enlarged, so it looks rather abstract, but it's a flower, actually. Oh, I love knowing that. Yeah, yeah. That's fascinating. What's interesting about it is that when I wear a Paul Smith suit, I feel confident. So in a way, I can dress in a way that's comfortable. But if I did have to have a confrontation, I'd feel more confident doing it. Yeah. Well, that's fabulous to hear. And also, you know, then you open up and there's a little different colour jetting in the pocket or there's something hidden under the sleeve. And I remember French film director Truffaut, and he got a Portsmouth jacket and he was so classical, but then he was so cheeky when he opened it up and there was a little bit of colour in there.

18:34I thought that was, I mean, because if you imagine 1970s, late, there wasn't really any high fashion for men, especially a lot for women. So having that just little secret was quite nice. And of course, the first shop was far smaller than the studio where we are now. It was 12 foot by 12 foot. And so therefore, there was a real problem with making people relax straight away because they walked in and they were in front of you straight away. So that's how Paul Smith shops, how the birth of having things like some ceramics or some art or something I'd found on a trip somewhere as well as clothes so that you could walk in and the customer was quite right in front of you and say, oh, hi, I just came on a trip and I found this lovely poster and it was an icebreaker, which made customers feel relaxed.

19:35I love that you dressed Francois Truffaut. I mean, there's not many people can say that. That's pretty impressive. Yeah, and Goddard. Wow. Yeah. I mean, I knew about David Bowie, but I didn't know about Truffaut and Goddard. That's very cool. Okay, going back to the teenage Paul, this road traffic accident that you had, it was very serious, wasn't it? Yeah, I mean, it was a three-month-in-hospital job. Yeah. Broke of femur, which I'm now pointing out. Femur, collarbone, two ribs, fingers, nose. So in those days, because it was a long time ago now, it took a long time to heal from that because it was a very slow process.

20:17Now I think they just probably put a bit of stainless steel in your hand and you're out in a month or something. But it was a growing up period for me. Of course, Nottinghamshire, which is where I come from, was famous for coal miners. So there was a lot of coal mine accidents. So, you know, when I was in there for three months, 16 people died. And, you know, I'd never witnessed that. You know, you see the curtain that go around the bed and you know that some of them were coal mine accidents, motorbike accidents, car accidents. my flexibility helped and they in those days even because they nicknamed me the praying mantis so because I had one leg that was free and one leg that was in traction and I developed the ability to have a spoon in the in the foot and make make jokes about oh I'm just going to get my own lunch with my flexibility.

21:24So you were eating yogurt with your foot, basically. Basically, yeah. The spoon held in your foot. In my toes, yeah. Amazing. Yeah, so that amused a lot of the other patients and cheered them up. Humour has been such an important part of my life, and I think it's a vital ingredient. My Japanese team, you know, I have quite a lot of shops in Japan and a big office there. They say, oh, Paul's job, yes, head of happiness. That's my job. What a great job. I do clothes as well. So at 17, you have these three months in hospital. Are you ever scared? Yeah, I mean, while I was scared I wouldn't be able to walk or ride a bike again because, you know, your joints lock up, even at that young age.

22:08My sweet dad, I knew that he did it. He never told me he did it, but my cycling friends were coming in and we said, oh, we did this run last week and I was in that race and I was getting more and more sad by hearing, I suppose, envious of the fact that they were doing it. And then suddenly they came but didn't talk about it and I thought, I know my dad's had a word with them. It's a sweet man. You've left school by this point. Fifteen. Fifteen. Yes, I was not good at school. Well, I probably was okay but I just couldn't concentrate. And also I didn't know until a lot later that I suffered from dyslexia, which I'd love to be able to spell.

22:55So this cycling accident at 17 actually changes the course of your life in many ways. How do you then end up in fashion? Well, what happened was that because of my activities and sort of chatting to other people in the ward, the hospital, two of the other patients, we got to know each other, even though we never actually shook hands because they were locked in beds as well. And by chance, we were all released at the same time. And one of them said, why don't we just keep in touch, you know, because we all got on so well. And one of them just said, oh, well, let's meet in Nottingham and chose a place called the Berlin in Nottingham, which is where the art students, that was their watering hole.

23:47It's now called the university, but then it was called an art school. So there was architecture students, photography students, fine artists and fashion. and then meeting them with my sort of ability to be able to chat to people, suddenly this world opened up to me and one of the little groups I got to know, there was a girl that was, her father was setting her up with a little shop, a clothes shop, and she said, oh, Paul, do you mind trying to help me with a shop? I don't know how to open a shop. I don't know how you get a shop. I can make the clothes. And I said, yeah, sure. Like I really knew, which I, of course, didn't really know.

24:28So suddenly at 17, 18 by then, I was talking to, which is completely normal now, but then talking to somebody called an estate agent or a solicitor about a lease. So that was amazing. So I helped her and then worked as a shop assistant there, then did the window dressing. Then eventually we started to buy men's clothes because she was a women's designer. And then the big turning point was Pauline, of course, three years in to that job. Because I'd stayed close to the art school, whenever there were events on, I was always invited to the art school events. And then when my 21st birthday, my father very generously gave me£21, which he immediately spent on alcohol.

25:19and all my pals, we went to this place called the Yates's Wine Lodge in Nottingham and with the arts students and Pauline came along with the students because she was teaching two days a week in Nottingham. She lived in London and had two children. Did you know straight away, I mean, of course she's called Pauline, so in many ways it feels destined. Yeah. But that night on your 21st birthday, the serendipity of it, you didn't know. Not at all. And all my friends were saying, oh, she's amazing. You see, she looks so cool. And I was just a boy, you know. I was like into Dylan and Zeppelin and all the bands and drinking and mucking about.

26:04I used the word mucking about intentionally because it was just boyish, you know. And, I mean, she was the main reason I'm here with you now, really. The crash, of course. Yes. And then Pauline because she set a standard, which is very important, So the suit you're wearing is really beautiful because she set the standard of the correct pads, how it's constructed, what the interlining is, quality of the button, the quality of the buttonhole. And that's been very important for longevity. Pauline sounds an extraordinary woman. You have known her now for almost 60 years. Yeah, we met in 67. How have you kept your relationship, both personal and professional, on a secure footing in all that time?

26:58Well, I mean, I think with this interview, with everything we do, we both hope we get a nice interview out of it. So it's very much about balance. It's very much about knowing when to listen, which I'm not very good at this morning. Sorry about that. I'm talking too much. No, you're talking wonderfully. When to listen, when to talk, try to be interested, interesting. Key thing is when you come at home, home at night is don't just keep talking about what you've done. Just be interested in what she's done and how her day was and how she's feeling. And then, of course, the other thing is she's fantastic, which probably I think you hinted at.

27:43We might be talking about it later on. But, you know, feet on the ground. Yeah. Before we get on to that, you mentioned that she had two children when you met. So age 21, I speak as a step-parent myself. That's a lot to take on and also a joy in many ways. But step-parenting, I feel, doesn't get spoken about that much. And I would love to know about your experience. How have you found it? We're purposely quite private about that aspect of it. If you can imagine, without me dwelling on it too much, I was living at home with my mum and dad. And suddenly I had a lady from London with two children, two dogs and two cats.

28:25So it was quite a move forward. But the age group, of course, it was quite different. Seven and what was it? Six and eight or something. But I mean, in a way, you're similar, especially because of my playfulness. Have you ever gone through a period of your life where you've lost your playfulness? Never Oh, that's good I adore it And it's not a forced thing It's a completely natural thing Home is one of those things I really care about It's where I write It's where I decompress It's where my husband and I debrief after a hectic day So I am obsessed with making it feel nice And there's been one thing in our sitting room that has driven me mad for ages, and that's the rug.

29:16It's just too small, and it's kind of floating in the middle of the room, and I've known it's not right for ages, but not quite done anything about it. Then I discovered Ernesta, who make designer-quality rugs custom-cut to the exact dimensions of your space. You simply send Ernesta's design team photos and the dimensions of your room, and they'll help you work out exactly what size you need, completely free of charge. They then cut and finish your rug to order and can deliver it in as little as two weeks. Visit Ernesta.com and order five samples for only$10 and you'll get$50 towards any rug of your choice.

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31:12An old cap finds a new scarf. Because you don't simply step into the season. You create it layer by layer until it finally feels like fall. Find fall your way at Ross. Okay, so going on to your second failure, it is about the people that Pauline calls them. Who are they? Yeah, I mean, them have been in the early days, just another boutique, as they were called then, opening in Nottingham. You know, which if you can imagine when we first opened October the 9th, 1970, there was really no fashion shops in provincial towns around the country. But then, you know, probably into two years in, there'd be a boutique open and it'd be like, oh, they've opened and people are going to them.

32:10This would be you fearing this, over fixating your competition. Yeah, worried about them. Yes, yes. And then, of course, so that's on a very small level. But then what happens in, this is not just me for sure. It's almost everybody in the fashion industry probably fairly insecure. Around the table where I work with my designers, there's always the comparison of oh have you seen what this brand's doing or what that's brand oh we really should be doing that or it's gone very minimal or our shops look you know too dated now shouldn't we be doing so there was there's always this comparison of you know what other people are doing and so the danger is and this is a failure or a or a joy I don't know which losing your focus and worrying too much about them and that can be seen as a failure really for instance if suddenly you walked in a porcelain shop and it was you know white with black floor and everybody was wearing black and there was no music people would feel very what's happened here so it's the danger the failure is is worrying too much about what other people do oh that's amazing to hear because i'm also someone who falls into comparisonitis and have had periods in the past of feeling like well look at all these other people and they're doing so much better and i should exactly as you say be more like them and it's taken me quite a while to work out that as you say you should actually drill deeper down into what makes you you than trying to please absolutely everyone.