Sophie Willan - From Foster Care to Alma’s Not Normal

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0:42Eligible students get a year of Microsoft 365 Premium and a year of Xbox Game Pass Ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn more at windows.com slash student offer. While supplies last, ends June 30th. Terms at aka.ms slash college PC. I'm delighted to say that this episode was recorded with a lovely live audience at the Lowry in Salford, Manchester. My guest tonight is Sophie Willen, a double BAFTA award-winning writer, comedian and actor most known for her BBC comedy drama Alma's Not Normal. the show which has been acclaimed by critics as uplifting strangely enchanting and phoenix nights meets fleabag guided by the spirit of victoria wood is loosely based on willan's own experiences growing up in the care system after her mother struggled with mental health issues and addiction it was an unsettled childhood with spells in foster care and it was while being looked after by her grandmother, Denise, that Willen discovered her love of acting.

1:49On holiday in Ibiza, aged eight, she joined the hotel's drama club and was promptly given her first role as a crying clown. Willen began her arts career in theatre and spent several years as a stand-up, including a nationwide tour in 2017. But it was the release of Alma's Not Normal in 2021 that gained her a whole new audience. She is the show's writer, executive producer and central lead. Last week, the show won three Royal Television Society Awards and Willen was nominated for two more BAFTAs. Best female comedy performance, yes! And best scripted comedy. When you've had a varied upbringing, you do have a lot more empathy because you've seen a lot, Willen says.

2:37I think that all helps with being a writer. That's been a positive outcome of my experience, and I love that. Salford, please put your hands together and welcome to the stage the one and only Sophie Willen.

2:56Sophie, it's probably nice for you to have a sit down after the week that you've had. Yeah, it's been quite full of. It's nice to be back here. So congratulations on the RTS Awards and the new BAFTA nominations. But you've said, I know, amazing. I know. So thoroughly deserved. You've said that we're not getting a Series 3. No, no. I just can't be bothered. No, I did want to do Christmas special, but BBC can't afford to do solo specials at the minute. But they did say Series 3, and I thought, all right, let's have a think about this. And I did make myself laugh thinking of, you know, Lynn and Jim on an escalator going to in London going to visit Alma you know because they're dead busy aren't they they look you know I could just imagine them go get me down we're going up or down but that's as far as I got it just started to become very sitcomy you know and it didn't have I couldn't find the meaning for it so I thought do you know what just don't be greedy is there a part of you as well that even though you do this incredible thing with Alma where the tone is is buoyant and heartbreaking.

4:05And there's such important messaging in there, and yet it's also hilarious. It's all of the things. But you are looking at your own trauma, and I wonder if you've just got a bit tired of that too. It's knackering. Well, it's the crying clown all over again, isn't it? But it is tiring. And also, what you want to do is use your experiences as a metaphor to make political statements or whatever, so they don't feel heavy-handed. But what's nice is now I can do that with other stories, not my own, but using effective memory. Effective memory is where, you know, actors use it. You know, you use your own experiences to channel empathy for other experiences when you're acting.

4:44You can still do that as a writer, but it doesn't have to be, you know, so close to home. What do prizes mean to you? I don't know, actually. It's a big question, isn't it? I mean, they're quite weird, aren't they? the whole thing because you don't start off a competitive well I didn't I don't start off a competitive person and I always go really zen like you know it's all about just celebrating we're here together if I don't when I'm like you're fucking assholes I know and Siobhan we were at the awards this time and she just turned around to me like a toddler and she went I just really want us to win them all tonight and she's in her 50s so there's no who plays our mother mother yeah Siobhan Finneran.

5:28So I thought if she's like that and she's in her fifties, there's no hope, is there? Because a video of you receiving your first BAFTA went viral. That's the problem. That was a genuine shock because I didn't know I was going to be nominated. And now I'm like only two. It's like slowly you become an arsehole. You become corrupts. You do have to work hard, don't you? And reining that in. but explain to us for anyone who hasn't seen that deliriously lovely video of you receiving your first ever BAFTA tell us the story because it was on the strength of the pilot alone yeah which so it was really shot so I was filming Alma the series after doing the pilot and we were in lockdown I was ending up staying in like a converted stable because we couldn't because we lived in a tiny flat and my poor boyfriend at the time he he had a choice either comes to me comes with me to a converted stable or I don't see him for six weeks so and he wasn't working because he was a comedian so he was obviously locked down so I just kept coming home to this sort of sad horse like hanging out of the stable like no it's really anyway and then I found out unfortunately my grandma passed away in the middle of filming who was you know the grandma Joan character was based on she got to see the pilot and she loved it she was really chuffed and she went I'm just very proud of every rebellious decision I've ever made actually but she died on the second day of filming which I just thought you know what a bitch it's really her that you know she was such a show-off it was like she'd always in and she died on a super rare pink moon you know it's I always wanting to like show stop we get it yeah and she lingered for fucking ages and then she finally went and it was like of course you're gonna go she was supposed to have gone a year before the stubborn stubborn selfish anyway she finally died on this beautiful moon and it was really sad and i turned my phone off and um the next morning i woke up and loads of people saying congratulations I know she was a complicated woman it feels mixed and then it was because I've been nominated for a BAFTA I didn't even know BBC had submitted me I didn't know you could do it for a pilot so I was gobsmacked and I was nominated at the same moment that grandma died exactly I know which she was yeah it was really weird yeah and so there's this video of you hearing that you've won the bath yeah sorry you did ask me sorry no your answer was a much better story it was a lot i can see her eyes going oh this is going to be a long night at all no no yeah so there's a video so basically we asked to do watch it on on the laptop in this you know horse's stable with my sad horse boyfriend and um that's how they did all the the winds and stuff and I thought you know put a little dress on I wasn't expected to when I genuinely wasn't now I expect it all I've become very entitled you know it happens like I say over time but this point I was all humble you know but we're in sequence because I think you've got to be and then I wouldn't I just went nuts I was running around the farm I was talking to us tractor at At one point, I was like, I want a fucking BAFTA to a tractor.

8:59Then the neighbours came out, someone's died. I'm sort of having a meeting with all the neighbours, telling them all about it. It was mad. It's pure serotonin. If anyone needs a little lift, go and Google that video because your joy in that moment is a sight to behold. Is it true that you've named your BAFTAs? Oh, yeah. Tell us the names. Just dead simple, really. Julie. After Julie Walters. that's she's number two actually caroline for number one after carolina herm because i won the carolina herm bursary as well and to caroline and julie after julie walters i want to get straight into your failures because there's so much that i want to talk to you about your first failure school gcse's college as you put it to me so academia for you did it seem like a waste of time did it seem slightly pointless given everything else that was going on in your life Well, I just wasn't very good at it.

9:54I can go back to primary school and think I was actually really struggled because I used to write down one word and think my handwriting wasn't neat enough and scrunch it up. So I was like obsessively trying to be perfectionistic drive, you know, which often happens with care experience, abandonment issues, all that sort of stuff. And then by the time I got to secondary school, I just, well, in primary school, I had too much energy. I used to just get up and walk out the room. My teacher would go, where are you going? I said, oh, I fancy a stroll. you know like like it was bernard's watch or something and i just paused everything bernard's watch yeah i don't know why i thought it was okay but that continued through secondary school when you say it's a very profound thing you said about care experienced people having a perfectionist tendency yeah i imagine that's because love feels finite and that you have to be quote-unquote good in case you're not lovable enough to stay.

10:50Is that right? Yeah, definitely can drive you into performative behaviour, which is quite funny, isn't it? Sort of stood here going, love me, laugh at me. But yeah, it does drive you to performative behaviour or love is conditional, and these are all the things you have to unpick over years of therapy, I've found. Yeah. When did your experience of care start? How old were you? probably around well I had a I had social workers from quite a young age really from about five or six yeah and then it continued but yeah in terms of school I think I had sort of difficult in primary school because I was just like it was like trying to contain a wild animal I didn't understand the rules because it was a very I didn't have especially my time with my mum I say an Alma Mowgli with a mullet so it was kind of like trying to explain to Mowgli that you can't punch someone in the face when you're a bit upset like it was baffling to me so I would find myself I got in trouble a lot and you know just accidental and then in secondary school I just wasn't ever very good at routine sitting down I was excluded like Alma for arriving drunk in a bikini you know and then that continued college was upsetting because I actually got into college and even though I didn't have the qualifications I got in I was doing quite well I was doing really well because I did drama so I kept getting um distinction so I was really chuffed with that but I tried it two years on a rope once in Bolton once in Bristol but what happened was I think I started to slowly process all the stuff that had been going on and I was independent living my last year of secondary school and the two years of college and that was quite a lot living alone and going to college is a really weird experience you know because all your friends you'd go out partying with them on the weekend and then they'd all be like right got to go home I'm going for Sunday tea now and got to have a bath and my mum's got me whatever and you would just I was just in my weird little flats usually with no electricity because I'd spent it all on ecstasy tablets man do you know I mean I couldn't do up the meter as a little girl sort of lying in candlelight like doodloo on a come down having been at Wigan pier do you know what I mean there was no structure yeah what was what was your understanding of what was happening to you around that time it's just I was just trying to survive you're just surviving you're in survival mode aren't you and also you're in fight flight and being on your own isn't an easy thing to do when you're like 16 17 18 that's quite difficult especially when you come from these experiences I said like a lot of people enjoy being alone I've had to learn that and I do enjoy it now because I've got a dog so I can talk to the dog and she goes yeah now I know what you mean and that's great but it was like a whole thing so when I worked with co-experienced people now younger people there was one girl I used to work with quite a lot and she was brilliant and I could see her mind was fantastic really dynamic I also knew she was living alone and I could see this thing that I used to do where I'd perform excellence you know I'm I'm sorted I am good I I'm you know I'm healthy I'm normal I'm sorted because what you don't want to be is a tragic case you know you and you get put in these categories very quickly oh you're a problem child or you're a tragic case or you're some sort of hero you know you're real you know you put you on a pedestal we'll make a mascot of you and this young girl was exception you could see that and I saw her start getting wheeled out to all these things and she's being wheeled out and but I could see there was some things and sometimes she wouldn't turn up and then she was and then she was brilliant and I realized there was more going on and it was the fact that she was alone in her flat and I went to visit her to see what the flat was like and she was so similar to myself because she'd made it look really nice but for what it is because the windows are shit.

14:50I mean, there were tiny little windows, her windows, like mine were. It's like being in a chicken coop. And she tried to make it nice. But ultimately, the environment is not an anxiety-free environment. And to be there on your own at 17 years old in an environment like that, that is not an easy situation. And I think there's no support for that, really. I don't think they think that through. Because how do you self-soothe when you've never been taught how to do that? and how do you self-soothe at 17 when you're alone in a weird flat that you've tried to make nicer with candles but you've got some crazy neighbor above you which she had and I'd had as well so you know I think there's these sorts of things that people don't consider I'm so struck when you tell me that story about how you showed up for that young girl in a motherly way and I'm very aware that we're talking on Mother's Day and I wonder how a day like that lands for you given the complexity of your maternal relationships?

15:48Well, I don't carry it with me now. I mean, I'm 37. I've done a lot of therapy and I'm generally quite joyful. But I do think at certain times in your life, it can be really hard. And you're surprised. I mean, I had a time when I was like 27 or something. I was having a really rough time and it felt really poignant for me then, randomly. It might happen again in the future. I don't know. So it does come up. And I think the problem with all these things like Mother's Day or Christmas or these things, they're in your face, aren't they? I went on the tube today and there's hundreds of awkward-looking boys, actually, with flowers to take to their mum.

16:24So I suppose that's the thing. But I suppose for me, I feel in a very different place in this chapter. I think in this chapter, I was actually thinking recently, I'm 37 years old, you literally spend the first half of your life unpicking what you inherited when you were born. You know, I inherited quite a lot of chaos and confusion and all these different things. And I think I've spent, like, most of my life positively unpicking that. You know, I've had lots of joy, but I have spent a long time working that out. And as I've got to the second bit, now I think, well, actually, I'm in the second half of my life.

17:00I'm literally born, you know, if I was thinking I was born tomorrow, I'd go, I'm born into privilege, security, secure attachment style. I've got a really good setup now so actually I feel that's quite a special thing to be able to be born again into that you know you can create something yourself That's so well put

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18:59In Alma's Not Normal, there is this incredible episode where Alma is given her records from her care experience. Why was that episode important for you? Well, I suppose because we don't often see the care experience on screen. You know, you don't see it positively represented or honestly represented, I don't think. And I've never seen it in a comedy. And I've never seen it where, you know, you honestly go, well, this is really hard and really shit. But also there is hope you will be okay. I've never seen that. I mean, the Joker gets his records, doesn't he? And he goes on a killing spree. Yes, it's not great.

19:39You know, it's not ideal. So, and that sort of thing happens, you know. So it's like always very negative or a bit over romantic. So it's like actually for me, just wanting to explain it how it actually was when I opened my records. It was really quite a lot. It is such a moving episode and Alma refuses to be oppressed by what she finds. Yeah. And it's also an episode which Lem Sisay appears in. Yeah, yeah. Who is a former guest on this podcast and also a care experienced person. How important has your friendship been with Lem? Wonderful. I've known Lem years. So we started at Contact Theatre together, which is probably...

20:16And I saw... Well, actually, no, we didn't start together. He was at Contact and then I went to Contact and then he came back from London to do a show there. And I remember just thinking, that's brilliant. He's actually talking about his care experience and he's doing well. because I assumed that if you started talking about it or anybody really knew your background you know it'd be kind of not good you know you might not get the work or you might be seen as a bit of a problem or I had a lot of shame about it and I think things were different then I don't there was definitely not a hashtag that said hashtag Curliva you know that's very new which is brilliant yeah it's been politicized we have a language to explain our experiences people listen you know before it was just a very solo experience and a bit weird so when I saw him I think that was the beginning of percolating about actually you can be more open about your experiences.

21:07Now Alma's Not Normal is very very funny but as you mentioned before you also make political meaning from your comedy and there's one particular speech that Alma gives in season two where it's about how many cuts have been made to the care system and about how no one has asked Alma's mother what happened to you as opposed to what's wrong with you yeah and I thought that was so powerful and I just wanted to ask you a bit about your process how hard that is to judge that balance weirdly it's I don't actually find that difficult I mean I find the you know writing's hell but getting that tone does come naturally that's the one thing I'm quite happy with and also a lot of it's in the edit because it's getting that right as well you know but I suppose I think that's just genuinely how I kind of see the world is kind of easy you know sad moments are naturally quite funny and funny moments have always got sadness there haven't they so I think that tone comes naturally especially if you've got something you really need to say that you really care about I know I'm making a lot of jokes, but generally I think if you're kind of, as long as you're being really honest and true to what you need to say, the humour will come anyway, so you can just follow it, follow the true feeling.

22:26Do you remember the first time you made someone laugh? No, actually, but I am hilarious. You are hilarious. No. I remember my grandad used to find me funny, and it's not funny. He looks a bit like a Wallace and Grammick character. he's got a round head no neck so I used to go like that that's a not even Wensley Dale it's not funny he found it hilarious and there we go and he liked the feeling I'm guessing yeah I think so we're all quite funny in my family though it's like a family of emotionally deranged people that have a good sense of humour but this is the thing you can't not find things funny I've got an Uncle Malcolm who's got schizophrenia and you know the last time I saw him he chased me down the road with a cricket bat when I was a child we don't know why he was just in a bad mood and he always was a bob hat and then I saw him again at my great granny's funeral and it was like nothing had happened and he's outside he's got two security guards with him like massive lads and he's quite small and he was singing with the two security lads outside the funeral we'll meet again Vera Lynn but then he just sort of panned over to one of the security, and suddenly this security cat had the most operatic voice.

23:41We'll need a car! And you see, things like that are funny. Yes. You know, like my great-granny, she died and she was a bit of a cow, you know. But I think subconsciously, everyone had forgot to put on a wake for her because they just hated her. So we got to this pub opposite, and we're like, oh, shit, better get some food. There was no food, so we're like, shit, get loads of packets of crisps. So we just got loads of packets of crisps and opened them out on the table So, in fact, help yourself. Yeah. You know, stuff like that. I love it. My auntie came. Evil Auntie Evie is based on from Sex and Series.

24:17I won't tell you a real name. I don't want to get in trouble. But anyway, she did come with someone in a wheelchair. And we did think, should we call social services? Because she was a real bitch. And I thought, there's no way she's not doing something very weird. but she does kidnap people what? no I'll just tell you quickly so I know I'm going off no carry on I want to know about Evil Odd but mainly Great Granny Alice she loved to kidnap her Great Granny Alice used to stay at the Four Seasons not the lovely hotel it's like an old people's home in Brakeman so as you can imagine quite different to the Four Seasons and anyway she's in there and she's like oh and Yvonne starts kicking off with the staff, this is ridiculous, this is shit oh Yvonne, don't, don't says Granny Alice, I'm not having it anymore I'm taking her, I'm having her with me anyway she just gets Granny Alice, she's in her nightdress and just, she's in a wheelchair just wheels her out runs off with her down the hill down Bury Old Road and then carries her up three flights of stairs and just keeps her in her flat.

25:33For how long? For how long? Till the police came. Oh, my God. I mean, it's quite a heroin story, but it's funny. It's funny. It is. Oh, Granny Alice, she's just like, oh, thank you, I'm glad you came and get me. She's not fed me for days.

25:51It reminds me, I heard you on a podcast talk about the links between comedy and psychosis. Yeah, great. You like to pull it back to the dance, don't you? I do, sorry, sorry. Oh, dear. We'll move on. Let's do the dark in this failure and then we'll move on. But tell me about that, the links. Oh, no, it's true. I mean, I think I'm a living embodiment of that fine line. So they say that people with psychosis, well, people with comedy, comedians connect thoughts that are not normally connected. We're naturally rebellious, angry people who struggle to follow the rules. You know, like, do you know the Joker?

26:25I keep going back to him, I don't know why. Yes. And he's dancing on those steps. And I thought, I've done that so many times, drunk. You know, you're coming home from the pub and you've got your podcast on and you're like, yes! There's a lot of madness, rebellion, psychosis, kind of connecting thoughts that don't normally connect, fast-paced. You know, you can't really sit still. I'm always up on my feet. You've got doing a million voices at once, you know, like I've just done Granny Ali for you, you know. So they're very, very similar. and I'm very lucky because there's loads of psychosis in the family.

26:57So I've got a really good... So it's quite nice if you can harness the psychosis. Yes. That is nice, isn't it? Yeah. OK, let's move on to your second failure. Your second failure is your improv show at the Royal Exchange Theatre when you were 20. Yeah. What happened there? Oh, that was a disaster. So I'd failed college and I thought, don't worry Soph, pull it back. I was in Bristol at the time, I'd gone to live in Bristol, gone back to Bristol because I'd lived there before, on me own. It all went wrong, I was in a really bad relationship and then he broke up with me and got someone else pregnant and I just went nuts, I couldn't stop thinking about it.

27:38So that, I failed college, ended up calling my auntie who'd just moved to Wigan. The evil one? No, she's a lovely one. Okay. But she She was clearly having a nervous breakdown because she moved to Wigan. And she genuinely was having a bad time. She'd just had a break-up, her life was shit. And she'd moved to Wigan and I was like, woo, I'm coming to live with you. And she was like, you can't, it's awful here. And then I came and I literally, and the house was a mess. It was really, I mean, my friend came in and was like, is she alright? It was bad. That's what break-ups can do to you when you've got that will and psychosis gene.

28:15It's really bad. So we both went through this breakup together and then I thought right because I was having a breakup she was having a breakup I thought right okay I'll just get back on the horse drama throw myself into work and I found this improv group in Wigan and I came and they were like yes we've got a real actress she's been to college. Anyway we did we got ready for this big performance I was a bit cocky like yeah I am a real actress don't you? And then I get to the Royal Exchange and you have to do improv and the audience picks something for you and they pick Greek gods. I knew fuck all about them.

28:53And I didn't have the confidence then, you know, to just be like, hey, what's a Greek god? Also, I was scared of being considered thick. That was a big fear for me until, well, probably until about five years ago I realised actually I'm smarter than the people who call me thick. Because there's a class issue, isn't there? Tell me more about that. When I went to Edinburgh Festival, which I'll lead on to my next failure actually, I did my first show and I thought, this is it, I fucking smashed it. I'd just started stand-up comedy, didn't understand the rules of comedy. I thought stand-up comedy was just be a funny human, I didn't know you had to structure jokes and work on it.

29:30So I'd written this one-woman play, it was really good for a one-woman play, it just shouldn't have been under stand-up. And I toured it around the country and it went really well in these venues, but then I gave it a very bad title. I called it The Novice Detective. And I came on stage with a magnifying glass. I shook myself in the foot in many ways. But what was interesting about that, despite that, in a way I'm kind of proving them right actually, but the reviewer said many things. One of my first reviewers said, she's a lot smarter than she first appears. Wow. How the fuck do I appear? I mean, obviously I did have the magnifying glass.

30:12So probably... I had that. And then I met him in a bar in Edinburgh. And I wasn't graceful then, actually. I went up to him and was like, what's your fucking problem? Like, that's something. It's a bit more rough and ready back then. And he had a handkerchief thing on, what are they called? A cravat. He had a fucking cravat on. No, he did not have a cravat. He had a fucking cravat. And a top hat. No, he had a cravat on. Darling, darling, darling. It was mad because it was like going... You don't get that now. It's much more diverse. but this was only 2014 but it was different anyway it this stupid man with the cravat on was doing my head in anyway my mate nicked his fags and we left well done but he was telling me how I need to do comedy better and all that and then there was another one who said distracting amount of cleavage that can be off-putting at close range you're kidding a man who said that that was a woman what she was flat-chested okay jealous yeah the improv show yes improv so is improv in a way just all about failure it's the story of failure really isn't it because you improv yeah i think i threw that in uh improv basically it was just do you know why it was so mortifying i remember getting off stage and just crying my eyes and that's the perfectionistic drive i could not I accept that I'd failed and I was like you know I was quite young at the time I can't remember how old I just failed at college and then I'm doing this and I thought I'll be on stage I'll do it and then I got it wrong and that made me feel really scared that I couldn't do the one thing I thought I was good at and it really affected me my auntie just said look you know you'll be looking back on this and you're laughing I'm not actually but I remember thinking I don't know if I'll ever you know you just think your whole life's going to be a mess and you're a failure and you get so, you know, especially when you're that age, everything matters so much, doesn't it?

32:05And I do look back on that now and think, gosh, how funny that you just don't allow for any failures, I think, when you're younger. Oh, I didn't, anyway. And was there a feeling when you were tentatively stepping out into this comedy world? Yeah. Did you struggle with that feeling of not belonging? Yes, but then as a comedian, I think we all go into it because we feel outsiders. And I felt like an outsider everywhere. I felt really outsider. But also that's not just a negative, it's a strength as well, isn't it? Because I've been, like you were saying, I'm the thingy. You know, I've lived in loads of different worlds and I lived in Bristol for a bit and I've lived, you know, in different families and all these things.

32:44So you kind of never quite fit in perfectly anywhere, but then also you kind of can get on with everybody and fit in everywhere. And so it's a super strength as well. The industry is weird because it is still predominantly very middle class, but I also get a bit irritated with the rhetoric about class myself now you know it and also I think it's still a big thing and we need to talk about it but don't let it detract away from you actually doing the work to be the best you can be but then I do think there's still a massive problem with the London centric nature you know everything's in London and they pop a few things up here that's a bigger problem I think for me you know I think that well actually no they're both problems actually actually fuck it yeah so but I think you know I think we just want to kind of try and develop the conversation a bit rather than getting too stuck in identity politics and actually look at it economically as well and what we're going to actually do and how do you change it rather than going like oh I don't know what quinoa is I must be working class you know that's very dull yes you know is that partly why you set up stories of care well stories of care was a care experience projects I wanted to do something that was care experienced adults writing books for children that were about care experience because I find that you know a lot of care experience stories are not written and authored that authored and kind of led by care experienced people or at least they weren't there in anywhere and a lot of charities that work with care experienced people you know they take their stories and they don't actually involve them.

34:20And I just think it'd be nice if Curate Experience people get to be the leaders of their own stories, you know, and the orators of their own experience. You know, and creating a community as well between the younger and older generations. Yeah, having their voice. That's the one thing everyone deserves.

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35:59your edinburgh show is your third failure which i feel like we've touched on is that the show you were talking about yes i went into it a little bit and why would you categorize it as a failure Was it the critical response? Yeah, and also probably because I put all this expectation on it. I was very intense in 2014. You do surprise me. No, I laugh a lot more now. I was going out with a lovely, he's a lovely person, but he was dead intense as well. And he was a producer. And he was like, we're going to produce this show. And I was like, all right then. And it was just quite an intense relationship, you know.