The F-Word Miniseries: Mo Gawdat and Elizabeth Day on Friendship

29:31Or I don't think we're a good match, almost like a breakup. Think about it. With love, saying I'm always going to be there when you need me, but I can't afford the hour a day or two hours a day or the expectation that we'll meet every weekend and so on and so forth. And I saw that you're starting to talk about that very strongly in workaholic. I'm also a workaholic, but yeah. A fragile workaholic. you're a workaholic with a very very interesting twist actually i'm a missionaholic let's say that i think that's really true yeah i think i think you will do whatever it takes to follow your passion to follow what you stand for i think so yeah thank you for saying that and then work is part of it yes yeah so go back going back so first of all that's so enlightened of you i wish i'd interviewed you for friendaholic now because that's so oh oh yes yes that would have been brilliant extra material i'll do paperback did you interview emma yes uh-huh there's a whole chapter about emma there's a whole chapter that's so enlightened and go now is my chance to talk about robin dunbar briefly so robin dunbar is a a hero of mine i've never met him he's the og of friendship studies he's a professor of evolutionary psychology at oxford university i can't speak i'm I'm so excited when I talk about him.

30:50And he coined very famously Dunbar's number, which is 150, which is the amount of human connections a human brain can cope with, where you will know someone's name, a salient fact about their life. And he says it's 150. And that's the number of people you might invite to a big wedding. It's the size of an average Christmas card list. It's also the size of an average medieval village. He then finessed this theory and came up with Dunbar's layers, which is about layers of friendship. Correct. So in the innermost layer, Dunbar says, you can have up to five key relationships. Now, if you fall in love or you get married or you settle down with someone or you have children, that will generally cost you two of those other relationships.

31:35So two of those friendships. Yeah. The reason being that to sustain friendships at that level requires time. Yeah, energy. Energy, time, thinking about. and we simply cannot do that for every single person in our life and that doesn't mean that other people that you love like have a connection with can't be in your life but they exist in a different layer and when I read this theory I found it so unbelievably helpful because suddenly it felt like the pressure's off as like if if I am doing friendship right it is not a question of being there for every single person who I like who crosses my path in the same way it's a question of discernment so that was very helpful and I think when people hear that it also opens up the opportunity for you to have a serious look at yourself as you do every three months and to see how you're spending your time because very often if you haven't done this exercise the people you'll be spending time with are the people who are demanding it or making you feel guilty for not giving it to them.

32:40And that for me is not inner circle friendship. That is something else. Yes. And there might be a place for those people in my life, but I need to pay more careful attention to energetically how that leaves me feeling because it probably leaves them feeling like that too. And that's what I say when people ask about toxicity and friendship, I always say, pay attention to your energy. How does it feel after you've had an interaction with that person? Do you feel drained or do you feel uplifted? And what can you do about that? That's exactly the key factor, actually. And it might not be their fault.

33:20And maybe they might be going through something in their particular life that requires you to be there more over a finite period of time. But if it's happening again and again and again permanently, and there's an expectation that you permanently feel unable to meet in some way no matter how much you give then that probably isn't good for your mental health and there's been a very interesting study done on ambivalent friendships by the University of Utah so ambivalent friends are the people that you meet up with and you never know what you're going to get sometimes they love bomb you and sometimes they're capable of great acts of kindness and generosity and other times they're incredibly passive aggressive and undermining and they'll say horrible things to you.

34:03And the University of Utah equipped people with blood pressure monitors for a period of weeks. Okay, I need one of those. Yeah, we all do. And they followed these people. And it was very interesting. If these participants had interactions with people they loved, great for their blood pressure, no, no effect. If they had an interaction with someone they actively disliked, they actively hated, also fine for their blood pressure. Interesting. If they had an interaction where they didn't know what they were going to get, it caused blood pressure spikes to such an extent that future studies found it negatively affects your DNA.

34:40Oh my God. So ambivalent friends are actually bad for your health. And the reason is, is because you're constantly trying to shape shift. You don't know what we're going to get. There's uncertainty there. Whereas if you interact with someone you know you dislike, there isn't the same level of uncertainty. you don't need to change yourself as much. And I found that so interesting as well. It's so eye-opening. So the idea of I can deal with someone I don't like, I'm not going to call them a friend. Yes. But I cannot deal with someone that I'm not sure what they are, sort of. Exactly, exactly. It's so interesting.

35:16I need one of those blood pressure ones. There you go. And then, you know, I can log in a little camera and then I just log in the person I'm with. Yes.

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37:56But this is really interesting because once again, we rarely ever stop to review those things. I recall, you know, you said it's a feeling of being drained. And I know a friend, I mean, I still call him a friend, but not in the inner circle. Yes. Who, for some reason, I always felt drained after we spent time together. Yeah. And wonderful human being, like literally motivated by God, loves his family. Wonderful, wonderful person. And in my three-monthly review, I sat down and I just was asking myself, why? And it was so interesting because when I sat with that person, they were constantly talking about what it is that they did that makes them a good person.

38:41Okay. What it is that they did that makes them successful. What it is that they did that makes them smart. They are sort of almost trying to prove to me that their ego, their picture of themselves is true. Yes. And I had the most interesting conversation. I had coffee. We chatted. You know, he spent around 25 minutes trying to prove he's amazing. And then I said, OK, so I want to tell you something. I think we shouldn't be spending so much time together anymore. And he was like, what do you mean you're traveling? I was like, no, but I find that your attention to serving your ego in my presence is draining me.

39:21You said this to him face to face? Face to face. And what was the response? The first thing is he said, oh, my God, I didn't know that I was doing this. The second is he said, would you give me another chance? Wow. And believe it or not, my answer was work on it and then we see. But I'm not going to give you another chance now. OK, that's amazing. Were you scared doing that? Of course. OK. But you see, the thing, Elizabeth, is that love trumps everything. Yes. If you do it with... I totally agree. Right? I really do. I think he's an amazing human being. But if I find myself a friend with a football fan, I despise football.

40:03I'm sorry I'm saying that in public, right? But a football fan would want to spend half of their time playing or watching football. I like cars. I want a car fan where we can either talk about cars or restore them together, right? Wonderful match does very well. And so does that mean that football fans are horrible people? No. Great analogy. This is part of the reason I love you. You are so brilliant at explaining complex philosophical ideas with the best, most meaningful analogy that suddenly unlocks something in my head. Just because you're so kind to me. No, it's true. I'm going to blush on camera.

40:39Don't do that in front of me. Do you know how often I quote the Becky Brain? Becky Brain is the answer to life. And actually, I mean, Becky brain has a part to play here as well. Absolutely. Because in the past, when I thought about having that kind of interaction with a friend, my Becky brain, my anxious narrative thoughts would be saying, well, you'll end up all alone. No one will like you. Who do you think you are that you can have this opinion about a friend of yours? Yeah. And my Becky brain will be telling me all these things. And I still have that Becky brain. I still have that fear that I'm going to end up all alone.

41:17and partly because I don't have my own children and it's rooted in a sort of existential fear. But I've got so much better because of you at being able to say, Becky, what's your evidence for that? Because if you don't have any objective evidence, I'd really appreciate it if you could give me a positive thought. But it's so interesting you say about leading with love because I could not agree more. So over the pandemic, I broke up with a friend and it's the first time I've actually done that and been able to put it into words. And I write about it in Friendaholic. It's a longer story. But we had just arrived at very different points in our lives where there was a misunderstanding of where we each were.

42:03And to her endless credit, she called me on it. And she said, I feel there's a distance between us. What's going on? And that was very brave of her. and I replied saying I love you and I think nothing but the best of you and I want nothing but the best for you but I do feel we're in different points in our life and I'm going through some things right now and I let you go with love and there was something about that that enabled us both to show up as ourselves and she again to her endless credit really received that very well. And if anything, even though that friendship is no longer an active part in my life in the way that it once was, if anything, we're closer because we know who we really are.

42:53We've been honest. A hundred percent. I mean, I know your love life and Justin, how wonderful he's been in your life. But I know before that, that you had challenging stories. To put it mildly. I have challenging stories every other month, really every three, four months. And, you know, my hope spikes through the roof and then. But what I've learned is that a loving breakup prevents a lot of pain. Definitely. Right. And of course, the earlier the loving breakup happens, the less the pain. It's quite an interesting analogy, again, if you think about it, because we are extremely meticulous. about who do we let in our life.

43:38And we have our antennas up. And the cycle is actually not dissimilar. You meet a new person. You're so into them. Everything about them is beautiful. Okay? And then you get closer and closer. And then you start to realize, I would say about myself, I never had a bad person in my life. It just wasn't the match. And you start to realize there is a mismatch, either in personality or in circumstance or in stage of life and so on. And now I mostly break up on the first date, honestly, in a very loving way or on the second date. Yeah. Okay. And rarely ever go into a relationship at all. And I think we don't do that with friendships.

44:21No. You're out with two friends or, you know, not from the very inner circle, but two friends. And then they introduce you to another friend and then you exchange WhatsApp's numbers and And voila, now we have an obligation to go have another coffee and chat about things. And we don't stop to think about it. Exactly. There's a chapter that I wrote in Friendaholic about friendship contracts. And it was inspired by, now I'm going to lose you slightly, but it was inspired by the Real Housewives of Atlanta. You lost me completely. There is an iconic scene in that reality TV program where... How many Real Housewives exist in the world?

45:02Not enough. You know there's a Real Housewives of Dubai now. Oh, I would hate to watch that. I don't think you would, Mo. I think you have a perception of what those shows are that is not grounded in the reality, which is the endless fascination that we both have for human interaction. Elizabeth, you're my dear, lovely friend. Let's not go there. You can have your cars and I'll have my real housewives, okay? These are our passions that there will be no overlap. Elizabeth? Some real housewives have great cars. Anyway. Okay, can we just please not bring this up? Okay, so you were inspired. But I was inspired because there was a scene in that where one castmate, Cynthia Bailey, made her then best friend.

45:51You even know her name? NeNe Leakes, yes. Oh my God. She made her sign a friendship contract because there had been so much misunderstanding between them. And it was tongue in cheek, but she made Nini sign it. And it made me think, do you know what? That's a great idea. I'm not suggesting that everyone goes out and prints out a contract in 12 point Times New Roman, but I think it's a good idea to think about what might be on that contract. And what might be on your friendship CV? What do you have to offer as a friend? Being really honest with yourself and very realistic about how much you already have in your diary and what commitments you already have to other people.

46:26What do you have to offer as a friend? And what are you looking for in a friendship? So my friendship CV might say, I don't have a lot of time to offer, but I love a voice note. And when I see you, I promise that we'll hit relational debt very quickly. I don't need a new best friend. I've already got one of those. And the contract might say, I don't expect anything of you other than to think well of me for that to be your starting point and um what else like cats that's not even on there because i mean i think that would be the only thing on my contract but it's actually a good idea to imagine what that might be because we need to have an understanding of how we show up and what kind of friendship we need and have space for in our lives this is brilliant it's it's brilliant first and foremost is because we get to think about it even if we don't sign it with others exactly right if if you know what it is that you have in your friendship contract you can spot the anomalies when they show up and say no that's not part of my friendship contract exactly exactly and then you feel less guilt about potentially leading with love and drawing a friendship to reclose because it's gone against your friendship contract.

47:51And by the way, when we talk about boundaries, it can sound very clinical, especially in this context. But I also think that there are ways of instituting non-verbal boundaries where you don't need to explain absolutely everything. There are ways of having verbal boundaries where we express our feelings with love. And there are also ways in which we can have porous boundaries in that we redirect our energy. So we concentrate on the good thing that person is offering, and we take our energy away from the negative. And just as a mental exercise, I found that very helpful with ambivalent friends who I do love, but I have to categorize them in that way.

48:34And I know that sometimes if I give too much of my energy, it will make me feel bad about myself. But if I concentrate on the good things that they bring that's really helped it's like tending your flower bed of friendship it's when you're describing it of course my math brain is going into yes tell me no no it's give me a mathematical formula because because you know when you really think about it you have a limited pool of resources yes of emotional resources of time right of a number of sentences you can say every day of a number of texts you can send every day right and again in comparison to romantic so family relationships are imposed on you you can't do anything with that right and most of them are not in category you know it's not very common for someone to say oh my god my mom is my favorite person on the planet it happens isn't that interesting you're right yeah but all of the movies and all of the social conditioning would have you believe that that's the norm yeah don't even get me started i mean the amount of social conditioning that we go through that sometimes defines a lifetime.

49:45Yes. Okay. One of my very common conversations with someone, you know, especially a woman in her 30s, if they come to me with questions, is reconcile and readjust your relationship with your parents because you're a fully grown woman. Okay. So we normally start with a relationship that is I'm the little girl, I'm the little boy, and they're my parents. and as you know, the cycle of life, eventually it flips. They are the kids and you take care of them, right? And that cycle literally goes like a bell shape. So there is a peak of the relationship where now they are the kids, they're deteriorating and you're growing.

50:23And I think the reality is that we never stop to revisit conditioning, especially conditioning that's been put in our heads too early. But when you think about the mathematics of it, the amount of meticulous analysis we put in a romantic partner is usually because we know there is only one of those. Yes. Right? Now, when you spoke about Dunbar numbers and the idea that we probably, most of us, have two or three very deep friends and the rest are layer two, if you want, two or three is not very far from one. I think that the problem is that if we don't define those three and invest deeply in them, everyone is just in a soup of friendships.

51:14And of course, my mass brain is now saying, okay, so if I have 10 units of investment, okay, and I'm going to give four of those to a romantic partner, if ever I have one, and then I'm going to give three to my layer one friends and then the rest is for everyone else, how much from a calculated point of view should be spent with each of those? That's such a good way of looking at it. I almost want you to go away and come up with a mathematical formula for friendship. It's clear in my head now, but you can put it in any equation. But I see it as those blocks. You're completely right. I mean, we do this in business, right?

51:52Yes. You and I will say, okay, I'm going to put four hours of my week in slow-mo and then 10 hours in other podcasts that spread my message and then eight hours writing. This is how we do it, right? We set our priorities and say these are the activities we're going to invest in. We should do the same with people. So can I ask you a very un-mathematical question, which I know you'll have a good answer to. What do you do with guilt? Where do you think guilt comes from? So the guilt that I struggle against every single day, that I'm not doing this or spending enough time with X or I should call that person because Y, where does that come from and how do we deal with it?

52:32Why do you do that? I'm going to say that on your podcast. I find that love trumps everything. Yeah. Okay? So mistreating someone would make me feel guilty, whether I meant it or I didn't. Okay? But if I act with love and do the best that I can, I think guilt is a stupid feeling. honestly. Right? So if I look at my life and I say, look, we talk about this openly. I don't know if I should talk about it in front of a million people. But the challenge with my life is I can't have a regular relationship. My life is very, very complicated. There are so many traditional, I mean, relationships. Why? Because from a time point of view, from a mind share point of view, I'm 80 % married to my mission.

53:19Okay. And so guilt would happen if I show up in front of someone and say, okay, you know what? And it did happen. And I apologize in my life before where I said, I want to make this traditional. I want to move into that kind of mode and so on and then fail. Right. Because then I set the wrong expectation beyond my capability and didn't deliver on it. But if I'm forward up front and I say, hey, look, I'm not an accountant who will bring a watermelon and a bottle of milk home every evening. This is not my life at all. Is that something you're interested to explore? Then there is really zero guilt involved.

54:02Guilt comes from, I haven't tried my best or I broke my promise. And that's where the idea of recalibrating relationships comes from. So that when you said women in their 30s and the advice that you give them, so sort of having a conversation with the relationship or the friendship that is provoking most guilt in you, almost having a straightforward conversation and saying, I'm really sorry, I'm not good at phone calls or... That's my clear answer. Right. So I have a very clear answer, whether you text me on Instagram and I don't know you. Yes. Or you're my girlfriend. Yeah. which simply says, I hate phone calls.

54:41So do I. Yeah. I'm so happy that we both hate phone calls. It's very impersonal. Yes. I don't know when the person will stop talking, so I start talking, you know. But also, I don't know how to end them. How do you end them? And that's why I end them in a very awkward way. They take so much time. And so literally around sentence three in a phone call, I'm saying, okay, so it's good. I'm trying to end it already around 14 seconds in, right? And if a person has an expectation from you, they become very, very irritated by my lack of ability to sit there and chit chat for an hour and a half. And I think what we're both also saying is that it is okay for that expectation that someone has of you to change.

55:28It's okay for you to change it. Even if you've behaved this way for 20 years of your life, but you've had this realization that you don't like it or you can't continue. Exactly, revisiting. So when you revisit, and you talk about this very, very well in the book, there is revisiting of ones and zeros. Like I want this person in my life or I don't want this person in my life. But I think a more intricate approach is to say, I would have this person in my life at those conditions, which are not the current conditions. Can we have a conversation? Okay. Right? So just like, you know, sometimes I would go to someone and say, I feel drained when I'm in your conversation.

56:09I go to others and say, hey, by the way, I love you as a friend. Just expect that we will meet once every two months and not any more frequently than that. Yeah. Or just expect that, you know, if I'm filming, I'm not going to answer your phone calls. Yes. As simple as that, right? I don't answer anyone's phone calls, by the way. At least then they think you're filming. No, no, but that's the truth. I don't even answer business phone calls. Yeah, I don't. I tell them, text me, right? And then I don't feel guilty about it because I'm doing the best that I can. You know what I hate? A briefing call.

56:43When someone books you to do something for work and you're committed and you'll do it and you know that you'll turn up and you'll do a good job. And then they're like, actually, can we also have a half hour briefing call? Why? Put it in an email. I'll read it. Or won't. Or wait. No, I actually, so you know what I do with briefing calls? What? I show up and connect deeply to those humans as humans. I don't even... Should we say that in public? Because I have a briefing call tomorrow. Whenever you say, should we say this? I always think yes. No, but I actually use... I enjoy connecting with the people that I'm going to meet in that work engagement more than I am connecting with the content, which you don't get in a in a on an email i think but going back i mean so the idea here is by telling ourselves not only to revisit relationships that are draining but also as you were just mentioning to actually look at relationships as they're starting and say do i want this in my life i think that's the tricky one you mentioned justin my husband there i love justin i know and He loves you.

57:53And he's so... He knows exactly who to let into his life and who not to. Totally. Yeah. And as a result, he hardly has any friends. But it was something that... Good for you. Yes. Well, it was great for me. It depends on you now. Yes. It was something that caused me a great deal of amusement. And I was so... I just couldn't understand it. When I was writing this book, I kept asking, I'm like, why? Why don't you have? Exactly that. Right. My perception of it is very much he's self-sufficient and he's done a lot of work on himself. And he actually has a very enlightened approach to forging human relationships.

58:42Yeah. On a practical level, when I asked him about it, he said, well, you know, he got married relatively young. He's an entrepreneur. He set up businesses. He had three kids. all of that was taking up his time and friendship took a backseat. And then when he got divorced and he was ready to date again, then dating and finding a meaningful romantic relationship, that also took priority along with co-parenting his three kids and now running his successful business. And so friendship again took a backseat, but the knock on effect of that, and he does, he has one really good friend, Paul, who I always like to give a shout out to, because I worried that otherwise Paul might listen to a podcast one day and think, hang on a second, I'm Justin Srend.

59:23And he does have a handful. You're handing over a lot of power to Paul here. I know. He's such a lovely man, so he would never abuse it. But the knock-on effect of that is that Justin, he's very aware of those blocks of time that you mentioned. And he's very aware of where is worthy of investing them. And he hasn't set an expectation that is unrealistic for people coming into his life. So he won't be the one who gives out his phone number at the drop of a hat. He is not good at replying to texts if he doesn't have the time to do so. And he's very realistic about what he does and doesn't have to offer.

1:00:01And I learned so much from his way of being. I suck at that. You suck at which bit? I have, as we speak, I will probably have, let's check. I have 97 unopened WhatsApp chats. Okay. I probably will have as many on Instagram and as many on email and as many on SMS and as many on LinkedIn because everyone has my contacts. Yeah. And sadly, yeah, sadly, I really don't know how to explain that to people, but I treat WhatsApp as email. Yeah. Yeah. And we're very similar in that respect, because if I connect with someone and I get on with you and you ask for a number, I feel dishonest not giving it to you.

1:00:52So I will give you my number and then the chances are you might text me and I will feel almost instantaneously overwhelmed and like I can't get back to you, which is a much worse way of being. But you see, the idea is that the expectation is you're not going to abuse the number. Yes. And if you do, I would be able, when I have the time to say openly, you know, this is not what I expect. Yes. The problem is that when the flood comes in, which goes back to the whole Justin. Yes. Justinology, which is to say, I'm not going to meet that expectation. So I'm not going to set it up from the beginning.

1:01:36Yeah, I suck at that. I suck at that too. And there are many people in those 97, by the way, that are people I love. Yes. And I would love to respond to. A hundred percent. Yeah. And actually one of the things that comes up again and again when I do book events for Friendaholic is that sense of, oh, I don't want to be your friend. Like, I'd like to be your friend, but I know you don't want any more friends. And that's absolutely not the case. I love friendship and I love connection. And I've got Only Connect tattooed on my wrist. That's how important it is to me. Do you? Yes. Yes, it's my mantra for life, Only Connect.

1:02:09Why did you take that before we met? It was around the time that we met. I'm trying to think it was right before we met because it was when How to Fail the book came out, which was March 2019, and your episode was April 2019. And the reason I got a tattoo was because that was the first book of mine that was a Sunday Times bestseller. I wanted to remember that moment, but I also wanted to remember that the guiding principle of my life is connecting with others. It's an E.M. Forster quote. And that also connection, I also wanted to remind myself, even if I get bad reviews, and obviously I always do, along with the good ones, I'm still connecting.

1:02:55There's something still very important there that I've prompted a reaction and an investment of emotion. It doesn't have to be a positive connection. A connection is a connection. Yes. so I love connection and I never want to live in a world without it and when I'm connecting with you I promise you it's completely genuine and real and authentic it's just that I'm quite an introvert behind closed doors I know isn't it wild but it's like I I value a one-on-one connection and I also need time to kind of replenish my energies and I think those things why do we think those careers introverts like it's just you and I again from the outside we appear to be the ultimate extroverts like you know I see you at a party and you're hugging everyone and laughing and loud and you know everything I'm not loud am I you're like you know yes living in my yes yeah yeah and then for people to not even imagine that you're an introvert or that I'm an introvert I know.

1:03:58Well, I've thought a lot about this. Which, by the way, is a very important part of friendship. It is. Yeah, it's to tell them up front, look, I love you very much, but I don't want to see you. Yes. And there are some people who get their energy from being around lots of others. And although I might like that experience in the moment, I know that I will need to replenish my energy afterwards and have some time at home with my cat and my jasmine tea. I just know that about myself. I think that introversion in some way, and extroversion actually, is connected with the quest for understanding. I sort of want to be understood and I want to understand others.

1:04:42And I suppose what you and I do is we seek to replicate the feeling of this one-on-one conversation, which is so profound and deep and engaged and loving and open. We want to replicate that for lots and lots of people. But in doing that, what I believe is that we're having a series of one-on-one conversations. That's what I do, yeah. Yeah, so it's almost like at an event where I might be on stage talking about friendship or failure or at a party where I'm watching a book, I feel that I'm getting those one-on-one connections at scale. Correct. It's different from just flitting about and not actually having that sense of linkedness.

1:05:29Yeah, I'm with you 100%. You see the Susan Cain that wrote... Oh, Quiet, yes. Yeah. Amazing. That's incredible. And I think the biggest insight about that, which was that introverts are not the shy ones. They are the more attuned ones. So we sense and feel everything around us. We can sense the smile of someone approaching or that they're troubled and so on. And so because of that, to create so many deep connections, you end up drained. Yes. Right? And an extrovert doesn't go that deep. So they'll say a joke and there will be four people around them. One broke his leg. They wouldn't notice it.

1:06:14And then they're... God, we're great. No, no, no. And there's nothing wrong with that because there is a place in the world for introverts that bring the energy and the fun and so on. And they're the best salespeople in the world. And they're able to really, really know so many people. But then they're excited in that moment because they're not exerting that much effort to understand the intricacies of every single one you're with. And that once again makes friendship very different for an introvert and an extrovert. So for me as an introvert, I rarely ever go to group dinners or group lunches or like, okay, 15 friends are going to get together.

1:06:52Yeah, I do. But most of my conversations are one-to-one. I'm exactly the same. It's either one-to-one or one-to-thousands. Exactly. But there's a serious point here, which is it's the middle grouping that we find most draining. As much as we might be having lovely times within that. We enjoy it for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Elizabeth, I need to question that Dunbar number. Okay, go ahead. Because I think the 150 connections has scaled for humanity. So there's no doubt in my mind that I probably know thousands of people. Yeah. In the description that you started with. You know, there could be someone who texted me on Instagram and then told me their story and I related to that story and then we had a quick chat.

1:07:47Yes. But I promise you if I meet them at a retreat or at an event and they say, I'm Susan, I told you that story, I will actually remember. I mean, I'm not setting expectation here, but I will remember. Yeah. We don't know each other, but we don't also not know each other. Yes. So is there like a scale beyond that where human connection, it's not friendship, is scale? Very interesting question. And Dunbar's number has indeed been analyzed by people who have differing points of view. And I believe, and I might get this slightly wrong, and apologies if I do, but the methodology he used was that he scaled upwards from primate brains and the neocortex and found that the human brain was X amount bigger and therefore the amount of human connections that the human brain could cope with was X amount bigger too.

1:08:41And there have been some people who've taken exception to that methodology, which I totally understand. I think that connection definitely is increasing in terms of how many people that we know on social media. But I'm not sure that knowing a salient fact about someone, knowing their name, knowing something about their family and knowing them well enough to invite them to a big family gathering, I'm not sure that that will ever truly change. But there's a caveat here, which I want to ask you about, which is AI. Oh, man. What, yeah, what about AI and friendship? Will AIs be friends? 100%. And an AI capacity for connection is probably infinite.

1:09:34I mean, your teenage, you know, what do you call them, stepkids? Stepchildren, yeah. Yeah. They could have been chatting to an AI all the time. Yeah. They would not be able to know the difference. So this is the core of the question we have here is what is connection? Okay. Because, you know, when we started AI at the very early beginning, I wasn't alive then, but, you know, the fathers, grandfathers of AI, if you want, Alan Turing and Marvin Minsky and so on. And the idea of the Turing test was to say there will be a point in the future where AI will be so good at mimicking humanity that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

1:10:19I think we've crossed that a long time ago. I mean, I always, you know, in my interviews say, go and search for the hashtag AI model, okay? Or go and chat with ChatGPT. And it's quite shocking how if you didn't know that this graphic image was created by a machine, you would think that she's a super hot model. or if you didn't know that you were talking to a machine, you wouldn't know the difference. And the reality of the matter is that I think human connection is at very, very deep risk. This is why those core friends that we have, because I'll tell you hands down, I do not know yet how AI can replicate your hub.

1:11:05Everything else it will. There is technology today, not perfect yet, but call it version one, where I can create a virtual Elizabeth Day. Will you be able to create a virtual therapist who can sit opposite a human client and understand the feeling and what is left unsaid and ask a question responding to that? 100%. So I know, I don't remember his name, but I met a professor at Stanford University that basically did that in the 90s and the early 2000s, where, you know, because funny enough, he's actually head of psychology and he was really, really a very renowned therapist. And he said, we just wondered if a machine can do the job and just ask questions because therapists don't seem to give answers.

1:12:06And interestingly, the machine did better. So, ultimately, if humanity becomes extinct, does it matter? Are AIs simply advanced versions of humans? This is my podcast, Elizabeth. Sorry. But I've been wanting a chance to talk to you about it. I don't think humanity has such a tough question. So I know for a fact that in my lifetime, the one thing that will be worth more than gold is this. Because it's not just AI. When I really look at life now, again, as a mathematician, yeah, the algorithm is explosive. We've added so many parameters into the game of the next 10 years that it's quite uncertain.

1:13:06Okay. Next 10 years. Yeah, it is very uncertain. So politically, it's uncertain. Economically, it's uncertain. Other pandemics and viruses, it's uncertain. Gene editing, it's uncertain. Climate change is uncertain. AI, it's uncertain. And that doesn't mean any of those is bad. It's just uncertain. But when you combine uncertainty with uncertainty, basically, it's an exponential level of the chance of our current life staying as it is is becoming one of a hundred million alternatives of possibilities. Okay. So this is the core of entropy on which physics is founded, is that the ability for humanity to retain the current way of life, in my personal view, is almost impossible.

1:13:57That everything will change so drastically over the next 10 years. The only thing that I could find that will not change so drastically is this, it's human connection. Wow. So the only thing that I value most in life today, that I believe, I don't know if within six years time, three years time, I will be completely bankrupt and homeless. It's possible, believe it or not. It's possible that I will never write a book again because of the economics of supply and demand of books being written by machines. right? It's possible that there could be a disruptive event in climate change that we haven't anticipated.

1:14:37The only thing that I know for a fact I can control is our hub, believe it or not. And I think this is why this book is so interesting for me, because we, I think the way you advocate in Friendaholic that we have to be very selective around where we put our energy is the key is the key to the coming years the key to the coming years is that we will have nothing left that we excel at but this deep human connection and and that's that's worth investing in and going back to 2019 when we first met and you first came on how to fail That is my podcast. I know. My final question. So AI was one of your failures because you felt that you had failed to see the damage it could wreak early enough.

1:15:35And when I asked you what we could all be doing today to help, you said it was such a great piece of advice. And I quote it all the time. Be kind to Alexa and Siri and your Google pods. say thank you, say please and thank you. Be kind because AIs are learning from us all of the time. And the best way to handle it is to model kindness, connection. Be kind to everything. Actually, it doesn't have to do, just doesn't necessarily have to do with AI. The understanding of the current moment in time we're in is that we have found a way to put humanity on steroids, to take our intelligence and multiply it by a billion, to take our value system and multiply it by a billion, to take our abilities to produce and just multiply it by millions, right?

1:16:27This is where we are. So the core of the issue is what are we multiplying? And it's never been, you know, one of the funniest things. I always smile when I get that question is people listen to my AI work and they start talking about, okay, Mo, so you say we should build ethical AI. What is ethical AI? And my answer is, what is ethics? Yes, exactly. Ethics are so simple. Treat others as you want to be treated. It's not that complicated when you really take it down to its bare bones. So when you talk about friendships and friendship reviews, as you coined the term now, I just treat people as I'd like to be treated.

1:17:07By the way, when I tell someone I'm not able to spend more time with you, it's much better than ghosting them. Which I've done, sadly, because of my 97 constant stream of WhatsApps. Some people may feel I'm ghosting them. But wouldn't it be much nicer if I actually go out there and apologize and say, hey, by the way, I just... And I do. Many times people don't get it. But I do, I say, I'm just not able to keep up, right? And I think that kindness, that idea of if I were in their place, I would like someone to text me and say, hey, by the way, I'm not ignoring you. I'm just overwhelmed and bombarded with more than I can deal with.

1:17:42I think that's all we have left. Believe it or not, it is all we have left. Oh my gosh, let's end on a happier note. There's nothing unhappy about that at all, because we have this. Yes. So I think what people constantly miss in my message is I'm saying, they think I'm saying the world is going to end. I'm saying the world is going to change very drastically. Okay. And if it's going to change that drastically, we should be prepared for the change, not be surprised by it. Yes. Okay. And in a very, very interesting way, as a matter of fact, what I tell people is, look, your current way of life is game over.

1:18:27So until this is fact, enjoy the F out of it. Because the next one doesn't necessarily, it's not going to necessarily be bad or good. It's going to be very different. So enjoy that when it happens. But for now, live fully. Reach out to Elizabeth every now and then and say, how are you doing? And these connections, it depends on how far you can scale. But I think the answer that your book made very clear in my mind is they scale by allowing yourself to give more to those closer to you. Yes. And less and less as they are further away. And also, I think the way to maintain connection within that scale is to be fully authentic.

1:19:16So if you are showing up as yourself, that's the thing that people can connect most with. So when you said those very kind things at the beginning of this interview about my vulnerability and my my passions are sharing that. It's because I fundamentally believe that vulnerability is a shortcut to intimate connection. So if you are listening to this podcast, the only shortcut. If you're listening to this podcast right now and you feel connected to me or to Mo because of something we said, that is a real, and that is a profound and beautiful connection. I think that's what made us so close. Yes.

1:19:59and we might never meet in real life, but we've had that moment of connection and we will always have that. And that's because we've shown up as ourselves. Yeah, Connection Junkie, your next book. My gosh, you're just coming up with amazing titles. Better than Friendaholic and Philosophy. Are you kidding me? I have a similar title, like I just love, just coining a new phrase. Connection Junkie would work actually. That's great. But not to criticize that. I am a connection junkie in every possible way. It's just that we don't have the bandwidth. Elizabeth, you have to go. I know, because I've made another connection.

1:20:38No, because you did not say no to something. Oh, no, now they will know that you didn't want to go. We're not going to say who they are. No, I do want to go. Oh, my gosh, can we just cut that bit out? No, you do want to go and you love them very much. Let's not cut it out. I just love being next to you. You're a wonderful human being in every possible way. I value you, everything that you are, and our friendship so deeply. And honestly, a conversation with you just feels... Heaven. Yeah. I love it. I feel at peace. Yeah. Thank you. And for all of you listening, I just, yeah, you're so unlucky.

1:21:19Because if you were here, you would feel very different. I don't know if cameras capture this, but this is an awesome soul. If you have not read any of Elizabeth's work, actually, so start with Friendaholic. And I love how to fail, and I love failosophy. Go listen to her podcast. Don't even waste your time on mine. And, yeah, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful soul in every way. I'm honored to have her as a friend. I'm honored to spend time with her every now and then. I'm not even angry that I'm not Emma, but... I'm going to introduce you too. But yeah, life, you can't win every time. For that, I hope that you have enjoyed this as much as I did.

1:22:07I doubt that you did. I ask you to spread it and tell others about it. And I am really, really grateful that you spent the time with me. I think you have seen firsthand a sample of what it is like for me to slow down connected to a soul that is so dear to my soul. So do a bit of that because it doesn't really matter how busy you are this week. There's always a tiny bit of time to slow down. I love you all for listening and I will see you next time.

1:22:40If you enjoyed this episode of How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, I would so appreciate it if you could rate, review and subscribe. Apparently it helps other people know that we exist.