Vogue Williams - ‘I love therapy’

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1:21Hello and welcome to How to Fail with me, Elizabeth Day. This podcast puts failure in the spotlight and asks us what we learn from the moments in life that don't go according to plan.

1:38Vogue Williams is one of the UK's most successful and prolific podcasters and TV presenters, but it almost didn't turn out that way. She grew up in Dublin, the youngest of three siblings. Her mother, Sandra, was an air hostess who's now a style influencer, and Williams' dad was a former car salesman, Freddie. Williams herself thought she'd be pursuing a career in the building industry. She completed a degree in construction design and management before attending the Dublin Institute of Technology to study quantity surveying. But building's loss is broadcasting's gain. An appearance on a reality TV show following the lives of young Dublin socialites led to further on-screen offers.

2:23Viewers gravitated to her warm personality and her sense of humour, but there was grit there too. In 2015, Williams won Bear Grylls' Mission Survive, beating former Olympian Dame Kenny Holmes and England rugby ace Mike Tindall to the TV prize. She met her future husband, Spencer Matthews, while competing in Channel 4's The Jump. The couple now have three young children. As a podcaster, Williams is behind the chart-topping My Therapist Ghosted Me, co-hosted with her friend and comedian Joanne McNally. She's also behind Spencer and Vogue and the newly launched The Apple and the Tree, where a parent and their adult child get to ask each other about the parts of their history they've never shared.

3:09It's a really raw thing to be able to ask about something you've always wanted to talk to your family about, Williams says, but you never have. Every single family, including mine, has those things they don't discuss. Vogue Williams, welcome to How to Vail. Thank you for having me. That was quite hard keeping a straight face, only because we have been howling hysterically before recording. Because I love every single minute in your company and you make me laugh so much. I love hanging out with you so much. I was so excited to be here. Do so. It's also weird referring to you as Williams, but it's like my intro style is to use a surname, but it's so strange calling you Williams.

3:51There's a book Williams. I actually have three surnames. Show off. Yeah, I know. When I go to the doctor, I'm like, God, which one was us now? Because I'm Matthews, because Penny tried to convince me. And I want to be Williams. Yes. But then my stepdad, when we were growing up, wanted me to have his second name. So legally, I had to change my second name to Wilson, but I always wanted to be Williams, which was my original name. So that's why I always use Williams. Huh. Well, now we've already gone off on a tangent. So this is what this podcast is going to be and I'm delighted about it. The apple and the tree sounds totally amazing because I'm also super interested in family histories and childhoods and how it shapes us.

4:30It is. Like, it was so fascinating to hear everyone's different stories as well, because like I'd love to do something like that in my family but I just know I'd never do it I think it takes a lot of courage for some of the the stories that they were telling like the most recent one Lois oh my god listening to her childhood growing up and what her mother did and her being able to to actually be friends with her mother after her mother essentially tried to like kill her in a way um and there's so many different stories and we met Alex who has motor Neurons Disease and like that terrifies me. Seeing him talk about it and how positive he is about it and how amazing his mom is with him and having that conversation around his illness but not just that about when he came out and it was really heartwarming.

5:17Like loads of really sad stories but like really heartwarming and just lovely to hear. I'm really interested that you say you wouldn't have a conversation like this with your family because the public perception of you is as someone who shares and is very funny, but also very moving in your sharing. You share your life with Spencer, your husband, you share your life with your best friend, Joanne. So why would you not have the conversation with your family? I'd say I would have the conversation, but I wouldn't say my family would have the conversation. So I would be happy. And I know that we nearly touched on some things a while ago and then it was like, no, I'm not talking about it.

5:52And that was just kind of it. And like, I've kind of resigned myself to the fact that there are some things that will always be left unsaid in our family. And it's not like they're hugely bad things, but they're things that probably could do with a conversation. But like my family are also my best friends. So it's not like I'm going to be upset or not talking to them because we haven't had that conversation. I actually feel bad moving to this now because it goes really deep, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Your dad died in 2010. And I wonder if you feel that you wish you could have had some conversations with him?

6:26I think my dad was the, like, he was so much fun. We used to have such a laugh at him. We used to take complete advantage of the fact that he would just kind of let us do anything. But he was sick since I was 12. So I was always used to him being unwell, on and off. And I suppose he wasn't very serious. We wouldn't get into really deep conversations. Do I probably wish I'd said more to him? In a way I do. But then when someone's going in for serious operations, you don't want to sit there and be like, just so you know, I really love you. And then they're like, why are you saying that to me? I'm absolutely terrified.

7:01So you don't want to scare somebody either. You want to just be like, you're fine. I'm going to see when you get out. You're going to be totally fine. And like, he knew I loved him. I spent a lot of time with him. We were really, really close, particularly in our later life. For me, he was a great dad. I wouldn't say he was a great husband to my mom, but I don't know what else I would have said to him at that age because he died when I was in my twenties. I don't think that you're mature enough to really think, right I need to sit down and have a deep proper conversation with someone but I also don't I don't think that you should do that when someone's when when someone is unwell because I think it would make them nervous I think you have to be very careful around it and no one wants to think that they're going to die so I I do make a conscious effort even with my mum and stuff like that to always be like love you see you later or like and I chat to her all the time so in that sense, I don't really regret that.

7:52I think you're a very strong person. Do you think you're strong? I do think I'm strong. Yeah. In a lot of ways, I'm not. I'm like anyone else. But I think I'm strong for my family and like my family and friends are very, very important to me. And I would always go out of my way to be strong for all of them. But sometimes I don't feel strong. Like I've gone through things where I don't feel strong. Like we spoke about divorce. You know yourself, you go through something like that and you're just like, God, this is just a disaster. and you don't feel as strong as you could do. But then when you come out of it, you're like, okay, I got through that.

8:22Like I can get kind of through most things. Yeah. I've read somewhere that when you went through a divorce, and again, I can relate to this, it was when your anxiety was at its highest. Yeah. I nearly was going to have anxiety as a fail. Interesting. Yeah. I was nearly, and then I was like, do you know what? No, because I kind of feel like it's a part of my life. It will always be a part of my life, but it's something that I do have under control. But when I was going through all that, that's when it kind of peaked. And that's when I really had to look at it and be like, okay, how do I figure this out?

8:52Because I was waking up at like one o 'clock in the morning and then not being able to sleep again. And then you start stressing about the fact that you're not sleeping, which makes your anxiety worse. So then the next day you're not only exhausted, but you're just an anxious wreck. So I figured out ways to kind of deal with this. And that's why I don't think it's a fail anymore. And the ways that you have to deal with it, include therapy. Love therapy. I do. Isn't it lovely? It's the best. I feel so sorry for the therapist. I like just rant for ages about all my problems and I'm like, bye, have a lovely weekend.

9:25He's always on holidays now, my therapist. He goes away a lot. I'd say he needs it. Exercise works for me. I know when I drink, I like, I am violently anxious the next day, like seriously fearful. And I know that that's a real trigger for me. So I try not to drink too much. And I do love a beta blocker. And I don't know if you're supposed to say things like that, but I love having anxiety medications just in my cupboard just in case. And I don't take them very often. I definitely don't take them daily, but like there was a point when I was taking them daily and they really helped me just focus more on what the problem was without having all the physical symptoms of anxiety.

10:02It just helped me to just kind of coast through and they were never something that I wanted to be on forever. But I do like knowing that I have them within reach if I need them. No, but I actually think it's really good that you have spoken about medication because unfairly, sometimes it has a stigma and actually medication, if it is prescribed by a medical professional and you've sought the advice of a doctor, it can be so helpful. You know, if you are confronted with a chemical imbalance, it is completely acceptable and advised to take medication. So it completely makes sense. And you mentioned sleep there.

10:35This is another thing we having a comment. Don't get me started. Okay, no, don't get me started on sleep. Okay, seven hours, 15. Oh my gosh, I love sleep so much. So much. And I know that you and Spencer track your sleep and so do me and Justin. And you wake up in the morning and the first thing is what you get. 100%. Did it this morning. What did you get? I'm generally, I think this morning I got 96. Wow. Now, you and Spencer are competitive. Yeah. Who wins most of the time? He likes to think he wins. Like he's better at things. And this is going to be a controversial thing to say. I will never be as good at running as him because I just won't.

11:13I just don't have the same physical makeup as him to be able to run the way he does. He tried to teach me how to run better. And I did like a 3k the other day and I did it in five and a half minute pace, which is slow for him. And I went home and I was like, I feel like I'm going to faint. I had to get in the bath. I had to then like sit down and try and eat. I was like not in a good way, but we are quite competitive, but I win on things like tidiness, things that are important to me. I went on organization and sleep. You mentioned that Spencer's running and he is attempting this world record, which is 30 marathons in 30 days in the desert.

11:53Yeah, at 45 degrees. How do you cope with Spencer's constant need to put himself through these kind of physical challenges? I don't really understand it, but when he comes back, he's slightly changed all the time. So he did the Marathon de Sable and he did come back and he just has kind of a different mind frame around things for a while. Obviously he settles back into normality, but there's always something that will slightly change him on these runs. And he did the Jungle Ultra. And then this for him is like a world record. He really wants to do it. He's doing it for Make Some Noise, which is an amazing charity.

12:31So he's trying to make loads and loads of money for that. and he just loves it. I don't understand it. He's trying to get me to do 35Ks. So I do, and I'm like, that's a bit hard for me now. 5K a day for 30 days. But it's a lot, like it's a lot of, like he's away then for 40 days and I'm at home with the kids for 40 days and I will never have a lion in those 40 days and I'm doing bedtimes for 40 nights. So it's tough for all of us, not as tough as it is for him, but I think it's an amazing thing to do, but an amazing way to be able to push your body because I genuinely date in my whole lifetime I will ever do a marathon and he's doing 30 in 30 days it's wild and in a way it's sort of an extension of how you met because you met on this show the jump now sadly defunct because of so many injuries and you injured yourself and had to pull out well they were really good they paid for everything when I did my knee and they paid for the operation they paid for my physio I would do the jump in a heartbeat if it came back.

13:30It is so much fun. It looks terrifying. The jump was terrifying. I used to cry on the top of it and they'd be like, you're fine. And I'd be like, go. And it was amazing that you were learning all these things that you'd never do. Like, if you can do a TV show where you get to learn these incredible things, I always say jump at the chance of it. It's just... Literally. Yeah, we met on that show. How cringe. For anyone who hasn't seen it, it's a ski jump and celebrities learn how to ski jump. And at the time that you met, so Spencer has been on How to Fail before. It was only because you were harder to get.

14:05That's the only reason for the order. And he spoke about his relationship with alcohol. And one of the things that he said was that when he met you, he had an unhealthy relationship with alcohol. He subsequently realized. And he talked about your wedding and how he was just completely out of it. And he realized that he needed to change or he would lose you. How aware of that were you? I'm usually like there's a lot of drinking around me my dad was a very heavy drinker I have lots of friends that are heavy drinkers it's just kind of been a consistency in my life for my whole life so like I'm used to it and and with him at the start I was kind of used to it and then I was like actually I don't I'm not I'm not doing that again like I don't want to have that and I think with himself when he decided because you can't make somebody stop drinking you just can't it has to be up to that person.

14:53You can't force somebody to change in that way. And I think he decided himself that he was seeing me, although I read this article, he did the podcast and he was like, yeah, Vogue and I used to binge drink three times a week. I was like, I have never binged drink three times a week. It makes me sound so bad. I'm a binge drinker because I don't really like the taste of alcohol. So if you see me drinking alcohol, I'm drinking it for one reason and and that's to get drunk, but I don't drink very often. But with him, I think he was watching me working and I was kind of like getting really cool jobs and doing better and better things.

15:29And he was just kind of not really being very productive. And then he decided himself to give up drinking. And as soon as he did that, he just achieved so much more. And he just felt like his career has completely changed since he did that. His life has completely changed. And he's gotten himself to a point now, which I know is impossible for everyone, where he can have the odd drink sometimes. And I think it's quite helpful that I don't want to drink all the time. We never have drink in the house and that's not because we're scared we'll drink it. We just never want it. So that kind of, he did that for himself.

16:03And I think that that was quite an amazing thing to do. But like, I just, I love drinking and I hate drinking because it makes me just feel so awful the next day. And some people don't get that. So I'd say, we were only speaking about this yesterday and I'd say at some point in our lives we probably will never drink. Eventually we'll get to that point because it just doesn't serve us. Do you think he was right that he would have lost you had he carried on down that path? I think the way he was drinking, yeah, definitely. Because I think he kind of, like with my dad and stuff, like although he was a heavy drinker, he wasn't a drinker.

16:36Like he wouldn't wake up in the morning and drink, but like I'd know where he was at five o 'clock at night. He'd always been in the pub every single day without fail and drinking was a huge part of his life. But drinking was a huge part of kind of our lives growing up with everybody around us kind of thing. But I think with Spenny, it was unusual for him to be drinking that much because his parents aren't big drinkers. His brother isn't a big drinker. It was just him. I think that that level of drinking is too much for anyone to be able to be productive or to have a family or to just like it'd be very difficult for him to have achieved anything had he kept up that level of drinking.

17:12Your first failure is your failure at school. You describe yourself as a rotten egg at school. Why were you so rotten? For a rotten egg. I didn't realise I was a rotten egg, but I was. I just took advantage of the system a lot. I physically couldn't stop talking. I couldn't stop. It's fine if I wanted to sit and talk to myself, but I'd be interrupting everybody around me. And I had a great time. But the teachers just got to a point and they were like, you have to stop. Like I was always in trouble. I was always disrupting other people. I could never pay attention. And, uh, and although I had a great time, I kind of feel bad.

17:54Like my auntie, she was a teacher in the school. So she was my art teacher and she was our year head. And this is when I had gotten kicked out of my house because my mom was just like over it. And I went on to that. Yeah. So I lived with my dad. And when I was in school, I used to write my own notes and I'd, I'd learned my dad's signature. So I'd do my dad's signature. And off I'd go just walking out the school. And my auntie would run after me and she was like, Vogue, you're not, stop doing this. And I'd be like, no, Naomi, my dad signed this note. So I'm sorry, but I'm leaving now. I have somewhere to be.

18:22And I'd ring my dad and I'd be like, if you don't, if you don't say that you wrote that note, that's it. I'm out of school. And so he wouldn't do it. And it was so mean of me because I'm not a bad person, but I just, I just, during school, I just was so, it was so about fun. It wasn't about anything else. and I kind of wish I'd put my head down a little bit more because I did do construction degrees, but I wanted to do architecture. So I never got architecture. And I'd say if I just put a little bit of work in, I could have gotten it. And what do you think it was? Were your siblings the same? Amber, my sister, was an absolute nightmare as well.

18:57She actually got asked to leave the school. So she was slightly worse than me. It was just, Amber and I were just messers. We just were always having fun. And we just, I probably was a bit worse than her in school. What was the worst thing that you did? I was never like horrific. Like I remember a girl in art class, in my auntie's art class, her and my friend, there were two friends of mine and they were having a fight. And she picked up a tin of silver paint, like a big tin that you would paint like a wall with. And she dumped it over this girl's head. I never did anything like that, but it was just the, it was the passing notes all the time it was like I'd say I I'd say I brought like most of my friends grades down as well as my own I kind of I hope they're all doing what they want in life and it's not because of me I'd say like I got suspended a couple of times uh it was mainly for just constantly interrupting people and disturbing people but I got suspended the first time for two days and I was in so much trouble for that because I was living with my mom the second time I was suspended for a week.

20:06So I had a great time because I was living with my dad. So let's go back a minute. So what's going on when you start being overly chatty and disobedient at school? What is going on at home? Are your parents still together at the point? No. So my parents broke up when I was around seven. So my stepdad has been my stepdad since I was like eight or nine or something like that. So he's very much feels like a dad to me. What was it like when your parents was up? I don't remember it ever being like that bad I mean there were parts of it that were difficult like I remember I don't I doubt they still do this now but I remember we had to live with my dad for three weeks in our house without my mum when we were very young and then live with my mum in the house for three weeks without my dad to decide who we were going to live with and we were like I was like seven at the time so like to just be not see your mum even for that amount of time I'd say it was difficult when I was that age, but I never remember.

21:06I remember having a nice childhood. Spencer thinks my childhood is insane and he wonders how I'm still so normal, but I don't remember it being that insane. I suppose it was hard in the sense that my parents really disliked each other to the point where we couldn't, like I couldn't mention my dad's name at home. They just didn't, they did not get on. I'd say he was very difficult to be married to in complete contrast to my stepdad, who is like the best husband to my mom and always has been. Like he still brings her breakfast in bed. And like, if they're having a fight, my mom's like, that's it.

21:40I don't want breakfast in bed as if it's a threat. I'd say he's thrilled he doesn't take off. But their relationship is amazing. And I think having the stability of him was really great. So are you bracing yourself for when your children become teenagers? I'm hoping because I've heard now because Penny has his clean coat company the non-alcoholic company and there's loads of surveys done where kids aren't drinking anymore they're not into it so I'm hoping that my kids will be part of that because I had my first drink when I was like 13 a bottle of cider I think and I was really drunk and then like from then me and my friends would sneak out and drink all the time so I'm hoping they don't do that and give me an easier time but I think it's going to go full circle though because at the moment people like younger people are very well behaved and clean living but the 90s are coming back with a vengeance and by the time that you're three teenagers they'll be smoking Marlboro lights I know I'm doing I don't want them to do what I did they're saying that like I did lots of stuff but you know what I feel so lucky that I did it all when I was like early 20s there was no real social media around like and so I got away with this thank God Do you think you're strict as a parent?

22:55I'd be more strict than Spencer. My parents were really strict. So Neil, my stepdad, was super strict. I was telling my friend Joanna's story about him the other day. Because we used to live, he came from, like he had no money growing up. He came from tenement flats. And so he very much wanted us to work for what we got. And like we were very lucky. He did really well in business and we lived in this big house. and there was a swimming pool. And but he so he was like, this is now you don't need to be going out with your friends all the time. You should be here enjoying this. And I'm like, if we ever ask, I remember I asked for a pair of jeans that my friend had and they were like, yeah, yeah, no problem.

23:33And then two days later, I had a job in the shop up the road. So I had to work for what I have. But like he I was so enjoying that on the weekends when people used to be allowed sleeping and stuff, we'd get like there would be phones in our rooms and it'd be a speaker system. And he'd ring us at seven in the morning. He'd be like, Amber, you're on the kitchen. Vogue, you're on the stairs. I was, Frederick, you're on the cars. So we'd have to get up. And I'd have to hoover all the stairs. Amber would have to clean the kitchen. Frederick would go out and do the cars. And then we could go and like have our day.

24:00But he was like, you have to work to live here. That's amazing. But no wonder school then was like a holiday for you. Like when you get to school, you can relax. I was free. Yeah. Now, I'm very interested in this because I'm a stepmother. Yeah. And it's a very difficult role being a step-parent. Definitely. So when he came on the scene, was he good at it immediately? how did he manage it? I still ask him that question today. I say how, like that shows how much he must have loved my mother because taking on three young kids when he hadn't had his own child yet. So him and my mum had Alexander, my brother, who currently lives with me.

24:37And to be able to take on three kids and especially what myself and Amber were like growing up, like we were just really, like just, we were a lot. And he really tried, like I remember he tried to come in and read Amber and I, The Hobbit. I don't remember anyone reading us a book. And he came in and he was like trying to read us The Hobbit and we had two single beds and we were just screaming and just jumping from bed to bed. He was like, no, I'm not doing that again. So he really did try. And he took us like, he took us to this like ski slope and like he'd always do nice fun things with us and he really made an effort and I think that although he was strict I'm so appreciative of him being like that because like I really I needed it I needed somebody to just like pull the reins in a bit with me and just make sure that I just did what I needed to do.

25:30Before we get on to your second failure I forgot to mention that your mother threw you out of home age 17. Yeah. Because you were so bad at school. Was that why? It was because well it was after this this I think it was the second time I got suspended and she was like, I just can't. As I said, I was taking advantage of the fact that I had like a divided home. So my mum would say, you're not allowed to go and do that. And I'd be like, okay, I'm going to dad's this weekend. And she knew what I was doing. And I'd go and like, I went to a festival once when I was like 15, because I was like, going to dad's this weekend.

26:01And then I was like to my dad, I'm going to stay in Sarah's house. Bye. And because they wouldn't speak to each other because they had a bad relationship. They didn't speak to each other. I once went on holiday with my friend, Sarah. I think we were 16 we went to Ben and Medina I know I'm going to sound like a bad person for how long? for five days or something what? and I stole money off my dad to call Vogue in a way though I think that he would have loved that he must have known like it was large quantities were you called Vogue after the magazine? my mum likes to strongly deny that but I was like okay where did you hear the name then?