Will Young - ‘I like to talk about it because I survived it’

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0:39Hello and welcome to How to Fail with me, Elizabeth Day. This podcast puts failure in the spotlight and asks us what we learn from the moments in life that don't go according to plan. Because I firmly believe that most failure can teach us something if we let it. Every week I talk to a new guest about the times they failed and how their perspective on life and what success really means was shaped along the way. Before I get stuck in, I just wanted to remind you all about my subscriber series where Will and I are taking a look at your failures or questions. This week, we go through your queries on dating today, it's a big one, battling with your weight and body image and dealing with life in the public eye, plus not being able to travel on motorways because of panic attacks.

1:27A really big and interesting range of questions today and we would love to see you there. If you'd like to get in touch, follow the link in the podcast notes.

1:39My guest today is a multi-award winning singer, actor, author and activist. His first appearance on stage was delivering one line as a fir tree in a school production at the age of four. He sang and acted throughout his politics degree at Exeter University and in 2002 won the inaugural series of pop idol. The single he released off the back of the show became the fastest selling debut in UK chart history. But it would rapidly become apparent that Will Young was not in the business of being pigeonholed as a reality TV show winner. Young has now sold over 10 million albums worldwide, scooped two Brit Awards and an Ivan Avello, and was also nominated for an Olivier Award for acting.

2:27As a gay man who made no secret of his sexuality at a time when such honesty was discouraged by the music industry, Young has broken down many barriers, becoming a mentor for LGBTQ plus communities, starting the hit podcast Homo Sapiens and publishing a memoir to be a gay man. He supports many causes, including animal rights and several mental health charities, including one set up by his twin brother Rupert who died by suicide in 2020 after suffering years of alcoholism. Despite once stating he never had confidence in himself as a pop star Young is about to release his ninth studio album Light It Up and a new single Falling Deep was released last week.

3:18I don't like the vulnerability of writing songs, releasing them and the result being judged, Young has said. I never have, even if they prove successful. Will Young, welcome to How To Fail. What a lovely intro. Well, what a lovely man. It was very easy to write because I voted for you to win Pop Idol and I remember that event. I had a Pop Idol themed party where there were lots of, I served Britney asparagus spears was one of the dishes I remember. And it was, it actually was so interesting writing that introduction and doing the research because I had forgotten just how intense Pop Idol was. I'm sure you haven't forgotten.

4:06The thing is, there's something really amazing about watching your dream come true in real time. That's quite unique in terms of a vocation. People might experience it in relationships, maybe, or getting them a home that they love or whatever. But to have that dream of wanting to be a pop star and then it's happening is just the most amazing thing. So any intensity was outweighed by this kind of disbelief that this was happening. It's a bit like being in a dream. It was just the best thing ever. And even having a microphone for me, because I was quite a repressed singer, which had reverb, which is like the echoey effect, was like someone had let me out of a cage.

4:53It was just so brilliant. So the rest like fell into secondary worries. and also it was quite naive then. When you look at it now, it looks like the Eurovision from the 70s. It's really funny. It looks so basic in a really like enchanting, charming way. Because I think we started with 600 ,000 viewers and ended with, they probably lied about the amount of people. 13 million, wasn't it? I think it was more than that. It was just bonkers. There is a very memorable moment where you stand up to Simon Cowell, who described your performance as average. Yeah. And you stood up to him and said, with all due respect, I don't think you can describe that as average.

5:38Yeah. Did you know you were going to do that? I knew I was going to stand up to him. It was operating on a few levels. So I think I knew that I needed a moment because I thought if you get a moment, then people will remember you. So that's in a way sort of almost callous, you know, in a way. and then I also knew that I really disliked that man and I'd met him on another competition before on the this morning boy band competition I was at university in Exeter and I remember thinking I really don't like that man and I went to a school where I was surrounded by I have to pick my words carefully my experience was very abusive and I was surrounded by a lot of quite unpleasant men so my radar for for people who i perceive as unpleasant is quite on and i just want to be careful i'm not saying that he's abusive but my radar is pretty good so my reaction was on live tv when i came across him i was like i like that man and then he was there again i was oh christ is that and i just knew we were going to have a sort of set to, I knew it.

6:49So it was give myself a moment, but also I'm not going to stand. He needs to be put in his place because I had to sit and watch him make people cry for weeks, building up to my live performance in front of him. And I just thought, no one's telling this man. Why is no one telling him? And so I was like, I'm going to tell him. How much of that do you think was informed by the fact that you did have a bullying, abusive experience at school that you actually when you got to a certain stage you were going to stand up to bullies I think it probably was now I've had a lot of therapy now I've realized I think it probably was informed by that and and still is now like I just don't like people who you misuse authority it's actually a bit of a gift now it's taken me a long time to see it because I can spot it very quickly and also it's quite an important part of my life now I'm And it's so naff to say, but I'm actually genuinely quite grateful for it.

7:48But it took me a long time to realise that. You see the truth. Yeah. And also, I think people in the music industry, entertainment industry, I'm sure you've seen it. They play on people's desire. Your desire is going to make you do anything. And like by that stage, I'd already had my first bout of depression. I lost someone close to me. I knew you know bit of life it wasn't the be all and end all and so I didn't care about letting someone like him get away with it whereas I think lots of people in subsequent programs I think there has been some awful behavior actually which is pretty well documented and you know it's no it's no sort of accident that suddenly there's no x factor it's just disappeared no one's mentioned that.

8:38It's like we're still getting quite a lot of viewers. Suddenly it's disappeared off televisions. Yeah, I think there's a reason for that. But we were pretty lucky. We actually had a really good time. There's quite a fair bit of ambivalence wrapped up in that. So it was a dream. It was coming true. And yet the way it was being done was slightly dysfunctional and had this bullying figure for you at the heart of it. And is that an ambivalence that you carry with you now around the notion of success I mean obviously this podcast is all about failure yeah although we've had a chat before neither of us really believes it's all a learning experience but the notion of success can actually be harder to inhabit so how do you feel about your success yeah that's interesting I don't think I think maybe for a long time there was quite a backlash to to pop idol it was the first time that that kind of talent show when someone was like one person they get the contract and it was massive of course there'd been other talent shows um but this was sort of in a different era there was quite a backlash and I found that really hard so like so I'd go to things you know and hear people you know slagging me off and it was just people who were my heroes and so I felt very unwelcome within music I think that took me a long time to shake maybe I've never really shaken I've always felt a bit more welcome in in acting than I have music.

10:05And also it broke my heart. So I was 22 and I'd hear like, I won't name them, but just people, they didn't like the show and then they didn't like me because I was on the show. So that was probably tied in with the notion of success. But there's a great moment when you've been doing it a while. I don't know if you've had this and you suddenly think, oh, I've been doing this a while now and I'm still doing it. Do you know what I mean? I know exactly what you mean. Yeah. And it was after about probably eight years, maybe 10 years. And I ran into Florence and the Machine, I think it was. I think she was pleased to see me.

10:44And I was like, oh, she's quite pleased to see me. And I thought, oh, I've been doing it a while. I've been, you know. And then you sort of settle in a bit. And then, and now I'm sort of at the stage where I'm like, well, in part, I sort of feel like I'm just getting going, actually. So do I. And we're the same age. We're 45, both of us. Oh, there you go, best age. It really, really is. And I know a lot of your new album deals with that idea of being in your 40s and the empowerment of it. Tell us a bit about that. Well, I did a video, yeah, for Falling Deep. And I wanted to use dancers in their 40s because I'm in my 40s.

11:20I was talking with the director, Sam. He said, why don't we do that? And I suddenly felt, God, this weight lift off my shoulders because I was thinking, oh, God, I'm going to have to go on a diet and I'll be surrounded by like 20-somethings. And I was like, why would I do that? There's amazing dancers in their 40s. And it was just brilliant. It was really empowering, actually. And I had this brilliant moment when I actually referenced a Nintendo Game Boy and I realised everyone realised what I was talking about. So there's something quite nice about that because pop music can be quite youth orientated and, you know, maybe not as much as it used to be.

11:53But and the rehearsals were so great. It just took all the pressure off everything. It was lovely. I don't want to ask a ham fisted question over something so sensitive and traumatic. is part of the fact that you embrace aging because your twin didn't get the chance no I don't think that was ham-fisted no I mean in a way I wish I had that moment you know people and then I lived my life I realized I'm doing this for me I'm doing this for Rupert you know and I just like wish it was that simple you know that I could sort of have that I had a near-death experience never look back i don't think so the weird thing about rupert in a way is actually i was talking to a friend of mine we both went to school together at this school we both had you know horrible experiences at prep school and um we've become friends again he's a twin he was saying thing about being a twin is if my twin went i'd still think he's around and i was like yeah that's what i think so everyone thinks being a twin it must be like the even worse the the you know the rip the grief the you know the ripping apart of someone leaving this earth actually I feel him the whole time so it's quite beautiful I was talking to him today you know it really is beautiful yeah and so weirdly I think being a twin has made it less hard probably not for my parents you know and also when you lose someone they all have a different role i'm not a mother i'm not a father and that's why often families fall apart because people grief can tear back families apart it hasn't with ours because i realize that i'm not a mother i'm just a twin brother no sometimes i get annoyed with him still oh for fuck's sake rupert you know but i don't often miss him and then sometimes it just comes in and I'm like oh he was quite funny actually but when you've had someone that's created a lot of difficulty in your life as well there's a relief that comes with them not being there and I know that's sort of that's a very risky thing to say in a way but I said it when I did the documentary and I think people that have lived with people that have addiction problems either friends or parents you know most people probably have at some stage there is a relief because all that's gone you know and I can sort of see the his brilliance again he's just in another place you mentioned an extraordinary documentary that you did with your parents on channel four about his death and his illness and you talked in that about being his his carer for a few months before he died.

14:48A few years. A few years. Looking back at those years now, what do they mean to you? Well, I'll tell you what it really means. I'm so pleased we had COVID together because we were in Los Angeles and I'm just so pleased we had that time because we had quite a good time then and he wasn't drinking and he was helping me with my dogs who were just rescued and then we came back and then he started drinking again and it sort of got bad and then he took his life so I'm really pleased we had that time when I look back on the overall time it was really awful you know I mean it was really difficult working caring for him cleaning you know cleaning the sheets every day wash it because he would have pissed himself wiping his ass getting drinks for him getting pills he's addicted to cocodermol by the way it's very codependent behavior but it was just all i knew what to do it was just the easiest way of trying like taper the drinks and so it was exhausting i remember doing a show i was doing i was doing a show and we had a matinee and in between the matinee and evening performance he kicked off and been arrested and taken to some psych ward and had to get to the psych ward, try and get him out and get back for the evening performance.

16:12You just do it. But that was driven by I just didn't want him to die. And then I realised, like, I am going mental and I am going down with the ship. And like, it could even be the case that I die before him. Do you know what I mean? It was like, I felt so ill. So I had to release that and be like, you can't do this anymore because you're just, you're not living a life. So I had to kind of give it up. But it was driven by just trying to keep him alive. I did a pretty good job. You did? Yeah, I did. When you talk to him now, does he talk back? Yeah, he sometimes, yeah, I said I'd see three mediums.

16:53So I've seen two. So I've got one more to go. Sometimes he tells me, and I'm a bit witchy as well, and he was very witchy. so if there was ever anyone that was going to like get in touch it would be him and quite a few weird things have happened yeah which I won't share but sometimes he tells me to get in touch with other people which is weird wow yeah friends old friends so then I have to ring them up and go Rupert's bloody bringing you into my dreams and I have to oh you're okay so he shows up in your dreams if you get visions it's a bit weird they come in different ways so I get visions often my communication with him comes in dreams and I wake up and I'm like oh he came in and he bought like a very old friend he he's he bought to me recently and was just checking in with them and they weren't doing great so I was like oh well done Rupert wow thank you so much for talking about Rupert with me I really appreciate it oh but I'm not the only person to have lost someone you know and it gets important to talk about it give people other other people permission.

17:59A final question before we get onto your failures. I read that you were sort of bumped into being public about your sexuality because a tabloid newspaper at the time was going to reveal it. Is that right? No. I had this amazing litigation lawyer. He does everyone, basically. The Terror of Fleet Street. I kept on having these meetings with him. You've got to bear in mind that But this time, no Twitter, none of that. Papers ruled. You'd get calls on a Friday for what's going on in the Saturday papers, calls on a Saturday for what's going on in the Sunday papers. Or they found this, they're running this, they're saying this.

18:35It happened every weekend. This is 2002 pop idol time. Yeah, this is exhausting. Yeah. Oh, they're running. Someone said that he slept with you. Someone said that. I was like, I wish. I'm just sitting at home. You know, like I wish. Someone said, like, he's got your pants. Like, what the fuck? and so we were gonna go with a broadsheet and announce about me being gay but then the sunday mail ran a story which weirdly even then i think it was illegal to out someone even in 2002 but they did it so we outed them by going with the news of the world or the sun i can't remember the day before yeah but we were going to do it in a couple of weeks how did you feel about the idea of having to quote-unquote announce it?

19:21I just thought the whole thing was so unnecessary. I really do. You know, there were wars going on and, you know, some mincy pop stars stop up. You know, I just thought it was just so pointless. I got why I had to do it, but it was just, it was such an unnecessary stress. But it was the way. You don't seem angry about it. No, I'm not angry about it. Were you? no when I started doing the podcast homo sapiens then I think I was sort of reclaiming some of my gay shame and like you know talking with Chris about things and who's the other presenter and interviewing people and I got angry then about the homophobia I'd had not the coming out but the homophobia and that was pretty awful actually but it was so normalized then so I didn't really think about it.

20:15So it's like, oh, that's what you would write in a paper. That's what you'd say on the radio. And I was angry probably for about five years. But then I sort of laid it to rest. Yeah, I had a couple of chats with some people and then laid it to rest. I thought, I don't want to be angry. Do you experience homophobia now? Very rarely. I used to get it two, three times a week it was really scary you know running away from people yeah hiding in shops airports in the street bars nightclubs I can't think the last time and also I would be really interested in my reaction now because I think I'd just be a bit like really are we still doing that I think probably my energy changed a bit as well I noticed when I took up kickboxing that I came back from that it was a training camp which makes me sound a lot better than I am by the way but it does sound impressive it was a training camp where I did like one class and I think my energy changed and I noticed that people wouldn't I wondered if I walked around a bit you know head down noticed that people stopped really doing that so I'm glad I'm you know I'm really glad it's not fun it makes you very paranoid it did and it was scary it was genuinely scary it wasn't just like oh that's not very nice poor you it was like i'm gonna get the shit kicked out of me and they're saying they're gonna stab me but it was just the norm then and this happened in london yeah london everywhere a few years ago no i would say probably up to about 2010 okay it then started changing.

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23:07so Will Young yeah your first failure is that you flunked your A-levels tell us about that what did you do for A-level I did politics ancient history which was Roman and Greek history. I loved it and I got the prize. I beat Ned Brown and I was really pleased. Well done. Yeah. I don't know who Ned Brown is, but I'm proud of you. He was like, oh, what did you get in your essay? I got, what did you get? 82%. I got 90%. Bad luck, Ned. And English. And I was predicted three A's, I think, or two A's and a B. And I wanted to go to Oxford. I wasn't bright enough for Oxford, but I wanted to go because I loved the buildings.

23:49And I got BCD. I completely flunked. I walked out of one of my exams after 20 minutes. Why? What was going on for you? It was the ancient history one, particularly. And I was like, I don't know how to answer these questions. And I remember this guy, Richard Coleman. He was like, Young, what are you doing? And he had hair that flapped like that. He said, Young, what are you doing? And I said, and I was quite angry. I was like, you haven't fucking taught me to pass exams. You've just lectured me. They didn't teach us how to pass exams. So I didn't understand any of the questions. And then I had to go to a retake college, and I went through it with the tutor the first day, and she was like, oh, no, this is what these questions are.

24:33I was like, oh, well, if they told me that, I wouldn't be here. I was very good at getting information. I was never good at getting it out. And I continued to flunk exams, flunked first year at university, at Exeter, second year. I don't know how I got a degree. Talking about how much you loved ancient history, if you felt really passionate about something, did you struggle to structure it in a way that made sense in an exam? Like the passion was bigger than the exam. I think I did, actually. That's very astute of you. Yeah. And I wonder if I've got something going on somewhere because I'm not good always at structuring things.

25:15And also I just get really sweaty, like clammy hands. Do you remember? So your hand would stick to the paper and then the ink would bleed. I had so much information. I didn't know how to get it out. So I just sort of almost froze. I think that's what happened. University different. I just didn't do any work. Can we revisit school? You've touched on your prep school experiences. And I don't know how comfortable you are talking about what you experienced, what you were on the receiving end of. I don't mind talking about it at all. I really don't. I did this awful interview with someone. I'll tell you who it was afterwards.

25:49I'm quite robust, but it was one of the worst experiences I've ever had, 22 years at that point. They did exactly what people do, which is that they took the fact that I went to a private school and that I'm well-spoken and made it about privilege rather than potential abuse of a young boy or young child. And it was really shocking. that's what happens. So I've tried to get various documentaries made up about the boarding school system and how, you know, it's quite interesting when you dive into it and you look at government nowadays, you know, you see the whole correlation. No one wants to make it because no one wants to hear about posh boys or posh girls, happen to girls as well, being abused.

26:36All they see is privilege and class. And actually my parents weren't very wealthy. You know, my dad, he ended up being quite successful but he worked really hard but I was just surrounded by a lot of very angry men and I saw sexual abuse physical abuse boys head smashed against radiators you know my brother was lifted up by his throat and slammed against the bookcase by someone that we knew actually which is weird the teacher boys were pants were taken down and beaten boys were taken out of the dormitory at night. We were watched in the showers, watched in the baths, made to change our shorts.

27:17You weren't allowed to wear pants, which was so weird because your penis would fall out of your shorts on the football pitch. But if they found that you had pants, they'd make you change naked. It just went on and on. So I like to talk about it because I survived it, which I did, and it almost broke me. You know, there was a point in my life when I was suicidal. I've spoken about that awful PTSD. Almost broke me. Couldn't work. I was really ill. But I've sort of come out of it now. But I still think it's important. And now I'm so good at spotting. You know, what it gave me was hyper-awareness.

27:57So I can tell you something about someone in two seconds. I can read them. And that's a real gift. Yes. Did this continue into secondary school? No, secondary school was like the best thing. Okay. I mean, we got like three fruit salads were our sweets at prep school. That's what we were allowed. There were horrible, horrible little sweets called fruit salads or licorice blackjacks. I remember them. They used to change the colour of your tongue. Yeah. And that was like a luxury. We were allowed that. Had to listen to classical music every night. Called by your surname. I mean, it was just so draconian.

28:32It was awful. it's awful and the school you know I'll be really honest about it I said to the school I will talk about this till the day I mean they must hate me because like I just don't shut up about it and all you have to do is google and you just find out what the school is I know it's a different school now but the people that there's still people on the board of you know the trust that were there when I was there but anyway then I went to Wellington and I was like oh my god we can like wear our own clothes because we're never allowed to wear our own clothes we weren't allowed to listen to music at prep school.

29:04I had to sneak in a Walkman, call each other by our first names. We'd have sweets. There was a tuck shot. I mean, we could watch television. It was brilliant. What do your parents think now of what went on? Because that must be a conflicting thing for them. They thought they were doing the best for you. They get very angry. I spoke about it on the documentary about my brother. Because that was a big reason why he was unwell. And my dad, my dad's like the best person in the world. I love my dad's he is the most I don't think he realises what a brilliant dad he is he's amazing and he's the most amazing husband I say this to my mum I was doing a gig once and people could I'm going to do it again because it was post-Covid and I just did five gigs me and a piano but people could also send in questions on an iPad who pops up?

29:55my fucking mother from Cornwall I'm like in Cardiff my fucking mother pops up How's she even got the email address? She's like, it's your mother. This is in real time. And I'm like, God, my mother's just, what are we going to do about your father? That's all it said. And you're doing this live performance. Amazing. They're really funny. But I think my mum gets very angry about it still. And my dad probably feels quite guilty. But, you know, I've told them. You didn't know they didn't know. It's not their fault. So your A-levels, coming as they did at the end of this long period of extended schooling, the first half of which sounds completely monstrous.

30:40Awful, yeah. Second half, much better. Yeah. Did it feel like a failure at the time that you got these grades? Yeah. Yeah, it did, actually. I was devastated. I just didn't understand what had happened. I think I was in a bit of a haze because I worked really hard. I was quite nerdy, actually. I really enjoyed it and there was no of like I'll use those grades to try and get to the university if I can get to one I wasn't putting up with that which I should never thought about that I could have just put up with that and gone somewhere but I was like no I'm not doing that do you think you had an idea in your head of the kind of person you wanted to be the kind of university you wanted to get to are you kind of competitive with yourself yes I think so yes probably a bit better now I hope but very competitive with myself and I was just like I want two A's and a B and I'm not putting up with anything less I wanted three A's but even with that I could only the only university that accepted me was Exeter and I didn't even know where Exeter was I remember saying to my dad I was like oh where's Exeter he was like are you joking so I ended up in Exeter your second failure we're now spooling forward in time yeah your second failure is Strictly Come Dancing, which you competed in in 2016.

31:59And you pulled out and you describe it in your email to me as a big failure, but I did it and ultimately got healthier and happier. Yes. So I would love you to take us back to being asked to go on Strictly Come Dancing. Did you immediately say, yes, that's me? No, I suggested it. I'd been asked a couple of times. and then I thought oh maybe this will be good you know to sort of be in people's rooms every Saturday night I was at that point in my career because careers go like that you know I'd stop being able to get on certain shows it's really hard when that happens by the way to begin with no one ever talks about that so I'm going to talk about it please do sure my management probably go don't talk about it it's all about success but suddenly you stop it happens to me I couldn't get on certain shows and sometimes I'd get on twice a season like what kind of shows I'm not going to say because it's not because I don't want it to even come across that I'm angry because I'm not angry at all but do you mean like reality tv shows or like current shows promote it okay oh I see that you can yes got it and that's hard that rejection is really difficult because it's not like you I've done anything wrong and you know then people start come up and going are you still doing music and that's hard to hear because you're like yes I do I'm doing music and you know the album's done well but so that's why I did Strictly which I think was a sensible decision but what wasn't what I didn't realize I was also in the middle of you know protracted breakdown and and complex PTSD and I learned very quickly I wasn't going to be able to do this and I tried to pull out and, you know, my experience was with people who were managing me at the time was that I was kind of forced to do it, basically.

33:49They were like, if you pull out, BBC will never have you on any... This is the kind of shit that happens. I'm so glad I get to talk about this. I'm so glad you do too. Yeah, this is the kind of shit that happens. This is the best thing about being in your 40s. You don't care. And I was like, I'm not well enough. I tried to pull out the tool. They were like, used money. you need to earn money did the talk I mean I was so unwell meant to be on stage at 8 30 I was in my dressing room at 8 30 on the floor actually my day-to-day manager told me recently that she left because she couldn't watch me like that anymore or how I was you know tried to pull out strictly and they were like BBC will never have you on anything again if you do that that's what they said to me so i was like oh did it so unwell had to leave after three weeks got absolutely destroyed in the press even though i didn't read it but then i heard that horrible man dan wotton is it from the sun is he yeah he got his come up and um yeah in the end they do but i remember hearing him on radio four i thought well i'll be safe if i listen to radio four i listened to radio four and he was slagging me off and i was so unwell it was just awful it was awful describe the nature of how unwell i was agoraphobic it's completely dissociated so dissociation depersonalized derealized so i couldn't recognize my face in the mirror didn't know literally didn't couldn't recognize i knew i was me but But it was a heightened agoraphobia.

35:24Imagine having constant panic attacks 24 hours a day. I don't know how I managed it, to be honest. And also I love dancing. Like I trained in ballet and contemporary. I love it. So I was actually really excited about the show. Just leaving the house to go to the corner shop was hard. And that was 20 yards. And were you getting any professional help at this stage? I was, but I think all of them said, don't do it. Talk me through what a day is like when you are on Strictly because it sounds like the most enormous time commitment. Yeah, it's a massive time commitment. I wish I had experienced it when I wasn't ill because I would have loved it, the training.