15 Secrets of Le Gavroche’s 57 Year Success - Michel Roux Jr.

33:07And others less so. Others will just need a pat on the back on the way out and say, well done. it's again it's it's understanding each individual person and that that is key um and then you've got you do need the ones that are just what we would call workhorses that that you give them a task and they will do it yeah and they will repeat it and they will repeat it and they will get on with it and uh and it will be done to perfection could you use the big ego chefs or the like the naturally gifted to bring up the how would you use um or utilize as you say the big naturally gifted megalomaniacs if you could call them with the the workhorses yeah could you get them to help each other like yeah absolutely how would you sort of galvanize the ego to get them to bring up the workhorses yeah absolutely because you know you need that balance yeah and i suppose it's it's it's the the true you know it's in in most businesses you need a balance so out of a team of 15 or so chefs that we had uh at le gavroche then you would split it up you you know you would you would make sure that uh the uh that the egos and maybe not working together they are split up and they are yeah they would be in charge of their little section with hard-working you know soldiers as it were you know the infantrymen yes yeah yeah yeah that's fascinating and on the case by case ego such uh example um points i think that's beautiful like it is you know every human being is different so they need kind of treatment is there an example of of how you'd the nuance and the sort of the tact and the guile of how you'd kind of pamper those egos with any of those any of the chefs any of the ones you've worked with or I should say lead.

35:05It's very difficult to, you know, pull out one particular example like this, you know, out of the blue. I'd have to start writing my book, memoirs. But, you know, the amount of time that I spent in the kitchens nurturing, talking to the staff and getting the best out of them, it's it it's very very difficult for me to continue to sort of pinpoint pinpoint things because it's almost like second nature for me yeah um but it's understanding each person's character and that takes time um you know 15 16 in the kitchen sometime pre-covid it was even more um and then the front of house as well because let's not forget front A house and and getting to know them getting to know them well getting to know their skills getting to understand their limitations What make and then Understanding them as a person so Where they're from their family?

36:14What they do their hobbies, etc. Just little conversations little snippets so they can get inside of their head and then use that as

36:26as a tool is the wrong word, but as a way to connect and a way to make me or to bring me down, not down, that's wrong again, to bring me to their level or to their, so that they see me as an equal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think it is connection. But on a human level, not like a ruin. Not as a boss. Ultimately, yes, I was the boss. Yes. And, you know, and dad was the same. You know, ultimately, yes, he's the boss. Yeah. But he had a way of bringing himself down to everybody's level so that everybody would feel that they could go and talk to him as a person. And hopefully that's the way my team at Cav Rochefelt, well, I'm pretty sure they did, because they used to bend my ear all the time.

37:19Oh, my boyfriend has left me, or my girlfriend is, oh, this or my. Oh, by the way chef, my mom's coming over. Can I have a night that day off? They would talk to me and people would talk to dad and uncle all the time And and I think that's that's really really important It's key I think and it's key I think to running a good business, but it's also key to creating a great atmosphere that the guests then will feel. I personally think, no, that when I go into a restaurant, I can tell within minutes if it's a place that is happy, whether it's a good working environment. It's like an aura. It's something in there.

38:13You walk into the place and within minutes, you know if this place is shouty if the managers are bastard if the you know if if if the staff are working under you know pressure that they're not happy you can tell you really really can tell but if it's a joyous place if the staff are happy if the management team are really getting the best out of everybody and treating everybody well you can feel it as a guest it's intangible but you know it's there well that's the thing is to say one of my favorite restaurants at the minute is is fallow like i've been there quite a few times and i went with my mom and she was absolutely like in seventh heaven they're bringing out the sort of espresso martinis and they've got a guy there and he's a genius so he's a guy called locky um who's this australian guy who's he was actually in a band called the overtones like this aussie i think it's like aussie westlife is what i've seen he's this beautifully sort of um you know camp elaborate kind of storyteller and he walks around the headband and um i was speaking to will and he was like the guy doesn't even need a job like i think he's done really well out of um the overtones or undertones whatever it is but he just loves hospitality and he's you know he'd come in and he'd sit down so your eye level when you're with someone like my mom as the as the food was coming was like what's that he's like he's australian he's like don't you don't need to say that i'm gonna tell you what it is but he's like he had this sort of sass about him i was like this is genius but so i had that experience and then i spoke to will and jack i was like how do you create that well it's like look we create you know whether it's a small thing like buying the team a load of the the energy's low so let's put up the house music let's give out some tequila shots let's like not to the team but to the staff but as you say it is that symbiotic relationship between just the what's going on you know sort of backstage versus front stage which is which is the restaurant i think it's it's endlessly fascinating the so so on the management stuff michelle so we've got the i think so so beautiful in terms of like how you manage the the natural egos versus the workhorses the understanding someone on a human level so there's that's key i think that's key really connection is there anything else on sort of the management or how to um how to to get a team together to do to create great work because i I think.

40:31I mean, it is teamwork. And you've got to get that message across that we are working all together as a team. It's not starter section, garnish section, fish, basically. No, you work as a team. So we used to try and rotate everybody. So, you know, you would work maybe only four months on one section, then rotate and move to another section, move to another section. um and and i think that's really important too uh and it was the same in the front of house you would rotate so that everybody would have a go at maybe doing the menial task running and polishing um and and everybody would have a go have a go have a shift at opening so the opening shift or the late shift so it was constantly so you would appreciate then the good bits and the bad bits of say finishing off doing the late shift um and and you would you would appreciate then the the glory bits of maybe being working behind the bar um so so all of that i think is really key uh and so in the kitchen for example yes you know you you may not like working on garnish section because a lot of it is pretty menial and it might be you know peeling spuds of this that and the other um but it's got to be done and it's got to be done you know in the right way uh and you can't you can't slack uh and then you know if if the kitchen porter doesn't turn up uh which could happen you know i i would be the first one to jump in and do my 10 minutes 20 minutes of pot washing uh and uh so you know you lead by example so they see that the team sees that well the boss is actually rolling sleeves up and doing some pot washing uh you know we're not going to complain we're going to bloody do it too.

42:18Yeah, it's, you know, I'm a great believer of leading by example. Yes. And, you know, I was fortunate that my first ever boss, when I was an apprentice in France, was exactly that. He was the first one in the morning, last one out at night. No, no task was too menial for him. If... This is when you were in the pastry. Pastry, yeah. That was in, because you were like 16. In Paris, yeah, 16. That's wild. Yeah, 16. That's another thing. It's mad. Imagine selling a 16-year-old off now on their wands. It just seems... Yeah. Whereas that was probably so kind of not normal then, but like it's a big thing for me.

42:56Oh, it certainly was in France. Definitely. Yeah. Definitely. But yeah, yeah. I mean, I suppose nowadays you would go to college. Mind you, I went to college at 16. I was doing my apprenticeship, but it still meant I had to go to college. So go to college one week per month, but three weeks at your employer. but I thoroughly enjoyed it and I think apprenticeships are fabulous I mean slightly off piste but I think that there was a stage that we were constantly pushing youngsters into further education university was the thing what period was that? Blair period wasn't it I think that you know university we had to send our kids to university and further education which i think is wrong and you know fundamentally wrong there are some people which are just not academic i mean i'm not an academic at the age of 16 i knew i fortunately i knew exactly what i wanted to do i wanted to work and i and i wanted to use my hands and I wanted to you know to to learn a craft a skill um and I do I genuinely believe that a lot of youngsters at the age of 16 know exactly what maybe not exactly but have a really good idea of what they're good at and what they want to do uh and also I think like some of my mates now like I'm 31 like I think having being there's a wonderful essay by a guy called Paul Graham, who basically created Y Combinator, which was based in Soho, actually.

44:42They founded loads of these entrepreneurial businesses, so like Airbnb, Y Combinator, sorry, Dropbox, all these sort of Silicon Valley, but this big sort of fund. And he's got this essay being like, to find out what you actually want to do in life, and this is his numbers, right? He reckons out of the whole world, which is billions of people, he thinks there's about five six hundred thousand people who like not only know but when he says like there's like saying you're passionate about like i don't know yeah for rugby but i'm not going to be a fucking rugby player as much as i'd love to be right but to actually be one of those ones who actually know what they want to do and probably have the potential to do it he says there's about 500 000 people in this in this essay he's got all the numbers to back up and so i think to your point michelle of like these 16 year olds if they know what they want to do we should push them to what they want to do instead of sending them to like a like no offense like a substandard university where they're going to get a degree in i don't know you know surfing in tourism like nothing wrong with that but that's not what they should do and i think you're so right if these people have this gift we have to push them into their into their calling but it's not easy as i think you're right we are we do just push people into this and then and then they're in debt yeah And they come out with a degree in whatever that doesn't guarantee them a job.

46:02And that's just wrong. I think it's really, really fundamentally wrong.

46:12And that's something that I think really must change. We've got to be able to figure out who or what kids are good at. I say kids, but, you know, 16. I mean, I even think maybe from the age of 14, you can tell whether you're a manual craft person as opposed to an academic, let's say. Just to put it in very, very simple terms. So why not get these kids, for want of another word, as I said, into some form of vocational training at that age? Carry on the studies, yes, of course. And you can go on to your A-levels, of course, yeah. but also have a vocational part of that to encourage them and help them and nurture them in a skill, in a manual skill that they could then get a job from and not be in debt to the tune of 30, 50 ,000 pounds by the age of 22, 23 and not a full-time job.

47:18So yeah, apprenticeships are really good. I think that's a start. But we need more help in our industry. I'm talking about hospitality with apprenticeships, financial help from the government and incentives. I know there are some out there, but it's not enough. And I think we need to relook at the curriculum as well. And the way we look after this next generation, which is key, which is important. And not forgetting as well, we've just come out of COVID. And a lot of youngsters are still suffering from that because they were locked up for two years uh and and learning through a computer screen uh it's mental it's crazy it's just it's just terrible and i think we forget that very often that those those two years of of covid lockdown um has caused a lot of damage to to this generation this youngsters one thing i want to talk about is is silvano because he was the sort of, he was the head of front of house.

48:20Yeah, absolutely. He was the guy. And a company director. What was his genius? Like, because I think it is a real, like, with cookery or cooking a dish, like you taste it and it's kind of, it's not okay, everything is subjective, but it's more objective than service because service is, you know, you've got a dish that's in your head that you want to create. You know, you can see Gordon and cooking it on boiling point it's kind of like i know that's going to taste pretty good service is kind of completely different i almost think i don't know this is what i'm i personally think and i could be wrong but it's like each back back to each person back back to each table but each table is almost their own little sort of theater and you don't know someone could be in a good mood they could be oh god yeah husband and wife could be having a massive barney you know the couple could be on a first date like the mood even though it's one dining room each table the the temperature of each table is very very different absolutely and like i think there is a real supple um art to understanding that and i'd love to know how sort of sylvanagh like what was his genius in terms of kind of getting all the beauty of the kitchen and making it effortless and smooth yeah you know front of house and service is is key isn't it and a lot of chefs don't understand that uh and that they think it's all about the food yeah it's not it really isn't um and silvano was a genius at that being able to read the room and exactly that you know we had 23 tables and there could be 23 different uh scenarios going on uh and it could be 23 different um backgrounds of each table i mean it could be royalty on one table sat next to the i don't know the taxi driver that's been saving up money for the last five years to come for dinner So it's being able to read the room, which makes a great, great front of house.

50:14And Silvano had an absolutely incredible memory. He could remember a person's face and where they sat the last time. He could remember what they had for dinner and who they were with. And a real, real, real gift. I mean, he used to jot a few things down as well. using the old pencil and paper as well. But he was a genius at that. And even if he didn't remember exactly, he would be able to start the conversation and then it would. Wow. Yeah. So, yeah, incredible. Are there any, like, what would he sort of, how would he greet guests? Like, what would he do? Yeah. So, I mean, always with a, and this is key, eye contact.

51:07and you greet the guests before they even have a chance to see you almost. And it's about body language too. And how you... How would he hold himself? Because I think, again, there's loads of lessons. People listen to this for, you know, they may be going into an investor meeting, right? There's people who have brands or businesses. And these lessons are very, like, the best three-star Michelin restaurant front of the house. there's going to be loads of lessons that can be applied to sales meal things getting investment for your bloody getting your kid off swimming lessons like these are these are human lessons but i think we can take it from the restaurant and apply it but yeah like how would he sit and like how it's confidence yes you know you have to have confidence confidence in your in yourself um and uh so yeah the way you stand the way the way you dress um and you know polished shoes gosh yeah the the the meetings before service, he'd line them all up and beady-eyed.

52:08Yeah? Shoes? Yeah. So you'd look down and go, oh, shit.

52:15And very often he'd say, look at your shoes. Now go and look at your boss's shoes, Chef Michel. Yeah? He might be in the kitchen, but his shoes are cleaner than yours. And I was a stickler as well. I've always got polished shoes. But it's the way you present yourself. You've got to be proud of what you do. And, you know, if you're proud of what you do, then you stand up straight, you stand up tall, and, you know, you connect and you talk with confidence. And that immediately makes your guests at ease. You know that you're in a good place and you're in good hands, as it were. You're in a safe pair of hands.

52:53Yes. And, you know, that's what Silvano instilled, I think, in his team. and, you know, but very much like my first boss as well. You know, I would have walked through brick wall for my first boss. Who was your first boss? Henri Elgoach, where I did my... I wish I could say it like that. Henri Elgoach. Elgoach, great name hailing from Brittany. But because we absolutely adored him and, you know, as a team, we would have done anything for him because he was such a great leader and he understood us. And again, you see, he understood every individual of that team. And he was the type of boss that you could go and knock on his office door and say, right, I need a chat chef.

53:45What would you go and speak to him about sometimes if you can remember? Gosh. Time off, needed time off because parents were coming over or time off because, I remember actually, because Gavroche got its third star, so I needed time off to come over and celebrate with Dad and Mum. He was very understanding. So it's important as a boss that you shouldn't be, you know, too detached, that you have to be available. Yeah. I mean, people ask me now, what do you miss of Le Gavroche? Because now it's shot. you know i'm kind of fast forwarding now but yeah yeah yeah there's no chronological yeah and you know do i do i miss it and etc i don't really really miss it but but there is that there are some things that i i do miss and that's that connection with the team uh and and being you know that father figure and um just that little small talk with with some of the team and you know you your dad doing you know or uh how's things you know outside of work or your football team's you know shit and we have a bit a bit of a banter but it's about that connection and and then also what i miss is is seeing these youngsters coming into the kitchen coming into the front of house you know they might be only teenagers but they've got that look in their eye and that hunger, they want to do so well, and to see them achieving their dreams and helping them on their way.

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56:40Northstar are your shortcut to smarter decisions, stronger pitches and investor confidence all built specifically for challenger brands like yours you don't need a massive sales team you need north star link in the show notes click that link and you'll be able to book a free demo with north star highly highly recommend that and thank me later what who are some of the most exciting chefs you think in london right now like who really sort of the youngsters who really sort of you're excited for other than my daughter and my son-in-law because they just got their first Michelin star which is amazing fantastic gosh it wouldn't be fair for me to name one over the other would it really but what really I find great is that the food scene in the UK is so vibrant yes it's wonderful it really really is great and to see so much homegrown talent is Is just wonderful and it's something that dad and uncle were always going on about You know inspiring that generation of British chefs.

57:57and you know i think they started that well i i i won like there's the 60s is such an interesting period so it's like you know i actually looked at this because there's a thing you can do um who was telling me about it rory southern was telling me about it when it's like when you actually the time periods going backwards feel like ages ago but it's like actually from the Le Gavroche opening to the end of World War II was what 15 16 years wasn't that long if you look and the way you can sort of realize how short time is is google the tracks 15 years ago to say and you're like oh my god so I think I did this exercise I think the songs 15 16 years ago to realize how it was like it was 50 cent in the club which to me is like that feels like yesterday and it's like fucking hell like do you do you realize how close that was to World War II in the grand scheme of things.

58:50It does seem like 15 years, but that's literally nothing. And then you've got like the Beatles. Beatles are my favorite band of all time. And I've read loads about them. I love the Lennon-McCartney like creative partnership. And I saw it was very analogous to your father and your uncles because I think it's the whole brown omelette versus white omelette thing, right? And it's like how you cook an omelette. But then you can literally trace, it's more like a family tree. their genius and was talking about these exciting chefs all the way back um you know probably like a family tree almost um and it's i think the beatles did that to music really like um what's they inspired so many new bands too but they were the first the beatles were the first to actually write their own songs so before that it wasn't you know yes someone else would write the songs and then you'd sing it so they're the first to do that um they basically inspired the rolling stones like the rolling i was listening to a podcast like this yesterday the rolling stones were in so much like sort of had a huge imposter syndrome around the beatles um they if you look at some of the albums they copied very much and then they went on to do their own thing the song i don't know if you do like the beatles much or like not a huge fan not a huge fan but but there's a song by there's a song hell to skelter which basically they just did in two minutes that created death metal and you can link it all back um but i think what they did with food is exactly the same thing but in terms of the creative tension between the two like i think you said at the beginning michelle you know those were some of the good traits you picked up from your father what are some of the good traits you picked up from that partnership and what are some of the bad traits you think you've picked up yeah yeah well hopefully you know the uh the good traits would be Humility staying humble as well understanding Being fair being honest I think you know honesty is is very very important Honesty and appraisal as well, which I touched upon earlier You know the old man certainly wasn't afraid to say when something was not right But to say it in a certain way and not be vindictive about it and to try and and nurturing and helping the next generation.

1:01:12You know, that is key. My father and uncle were great mentors. And, you know, that's something which I am passionate about as well because I went through that. You know, as I explained as an apprentice and all the other places that I worked at, I was very fortunate. I had great mentors as well as my father and uncle. So I think, you know, for me, it's important to recreate that and to carry that on. And my cousin is the same as well. You know, it's really, really important for us to carry that on. So hopefully, you know, they're the positive traits that I've picked up from dad and uncle and that.

1:01:53And something from my mom, of course, because, you know, it takes two to make a child. and that's her unrelenting sort of energy and although I'm kicking on now I'm 65 and I've got a bad back I'm slowing down I'm slowing down a bit but mum is incredible she has got so much energy she is the you know the life and soul of a party at the age of 85 and she she keeps on going She is incredible. Absolutely incredible. So hopefully I've picked up that kind of from my mom's side. She's also a very good cook as well. Not a professional cook, but also a very good home cook and has an amazing palate and understanding of great food.

1:02:43Bad traits? Dad? Gosh. Yeah, there were a few. Such as? Well, one of them being his love of women. uh he was notorious uh and uh he wouldn't mind me saying that he's uh he's probably looking down now and laughing his socks off bless him um yeah he was he was a womanizer and uh he he loved life loved life to the full um which i don't know if that's a bad trait or or a good trait it comes with both doesn't it yeah yeah any any form of gluttony has good good things and bad things Oh, he was a glutton too. But he always, as in a food glutton, he loved his food. But he always said that it was because of the war and because he was deprived of so many good things.

1:03:36Just for context, listen, because your father fought in the war, didn't he? Yes, yeah, absolutely. Because that's one thing I was going to ask you, teed me up, It was like, how important do you think his time in the war was to Le Gavroche's success? Well, dad was very, and uncle, very, very headstrong, single-minded. And when they had an idea, they would go with it. They sometimes argued a lot, actually, because they were different characters. But they both had a goal and they wanted to go for that. and that was open the restaurant and then open a second, a third, a fourth, you know. But that was their goal.

1:04:18And I think that generation that went through such hardship as the war and as kids, they were foisted off and as a lot of children were during the occupation in France, and they saw hardship. and they saw hardship as well growing up as kids because my grandfather on my father's side was not the best, shall we say. He was also quite a womanizer, allegedly. I never met him and used to drink a lot and was not the nicest person. So they had quite a tough childhood, the war. an errant father, shall we say. And so it was tough. So that forged them. That forged the hardness in their characters. Yeah.

1:05:15And deprived of all the good things during the war as well. So, you know, they had very little butter, very little cream, which were just two of the items that my father absolutely adored and would pig out on. Sure. I mean, he could get through a slab of butter in one session. I mean, it was phenomenal the amount of dairy fats that he would eat and he used to say I don't care you know, I don't care I Didn't eat enough as of when I was a kid and I'm gonna catch up now. I mean I remember The first six months when I was an apprentice in Paris and I stayed on my grandmother's couch in her little flat in Paris and There was a cupboard that I opened one day and it was full of sugar, flour, and tinned food, but enough to last for probably a year.

1:06:09Wow. And I said to Grandma, what the hell is all this? And she said, you know, Michelle, you just never know when they may come back. And she would hoard. And a lot of that generation did hoard. My memory is, but there was Nazi occupation, wasn't there? And your father, yeah, that's mad. like again it feels so recent but sorry it feels so far away but also so recent you know what i mean and it's weird that kind of sort of the malleability of time if that makes sense absolutely yeah that's crazy so it's interesting so like yeah because it's almost his sort of um lack of then made him a glutton for life and and i believe so i love that i really love that because then it's inspired it's the same again with the music is like we were so repressed and And it's like you have the 60s, then the contraception pill comes in.

1:07:01Like there became a gluttonous appetite for life post all that deprivation. So that was one bad trait. Was there any other traits you've picked up? I'm just thinking like my mum and dad, like I'm way more like my mum, but like she's just probably a bit, I'm a bit all over the shop. Which is like my probably foible. But what other things did you pick up from your old man? and or your mum, actually, that you've had to work on? Gosh. My dad was a gambler. He loved gambling. My God. Really? Yeah, I didn't realise that. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And a gambler, as in he would love, he used to play cards, he used to play poker.

1:07:43There was occasions where he would have poker nights with fellow chefs. So we had to prepare some food for them and get the booze ready and they would just have a poker school. vast amount of cash would pass hands. But yes, but and he would have an account, he had an account with various bookmakers, and he would study form. And yeah, so he enjoyed a flutter, put it that way. But he was also a gambler in life. And he loved to take risks and to take You know, that. But I suppose, and he, I mean, he also lived on credit. I mean, he, you know, didn't have that much in the bank. In fact, very little in the bank.

1:08:33And most of the businesses, including Le Gavroche, were in debt. And he lived on debt and he lived on credit. um but you know i suppose his philosophy was well you know i'm here i'm living yeah but the thing i got from the book i was to boil it into one sentence fuck it just go for it like in everything yeah and so would you say you're more of a risk taker like than your old man or how do you take no you're not you're way more yeah in that respect yes uh i'm probably more like my uncle my uncle was less of a risk taker, much more calculated, and maybe even a little bit tight. That's what I was trying to get to, the Lendon-McCartney tension.

1:09:22So you'd have dad that would just go for it. Come on, I've got to open another restaurant. We can borrow this amount of money. We can do this. It'll work. Don't worry. An uncle will go, well, look, hang on a minute. We're not making money here. We're losing money here. And you want to open another restaurant? so they were constantly you know constantly they absolutely adored each other i mean i mean they were almost inseparable but god they could argue and fight and you put them in an empty room and within minutes they'd be at each other's throats um really but they were but they absolutely adored is there an example of like where they'd be where that why they'd be doing that when that happened or well I mean you mentioned the omelette yeah so for listeners so I think your old man was brown correct yeah yeah no sorry the other way around you've got me going there yeah yeah so just yeah tell that story so my my uncle's perfect omelette yep would be with a nice bit of colour on top so browned yeah dad's omelette no should never have colour the brown would be from the butter or like how?

1:10:35Yeah, and you need to colour the omelette a bit. Sure. And that's how uncle said that should be the perfect omelette. Dad, no, it shouldn't be coloured. No colour at all. No caramelisation. But it should still both be baveuse and light and fluffy. And we had a restaurant. Why was that? God knows. Maybe it was just to be the opposite. Just to piss each other off. Okay, that's beautiful, yeah. So we had a restaurant then called the Pool Bow in Sheepside in the city. And upstairs was a brasserie and on the menu was omelettes. And there'd be an omelette of the day. And it was hugely popular. In fact, I ran the omelette section when I was 18.

1:11:13And there were no nonstick pans then. It was just proper iron skillets. And it was great. And they would take it in turns to run this kitchen. So one week, Michel, Uncle Michel, would be in charge. And he would pop in and make sure the omelettes were lovely and brown. And the next week, Dad would be in. and he would have a hissy fit if the omelets were not exactly how he wanted. So you can imagine the poor guys that were on the omelet section then were thinking, shit, which one of the two brothers are coming in today? Both omelets were delicious. What would you say is the best way to cook an omelet?

1:11:53I like a bit of colour on my omelet. Sorry, Dad. So how would you do it? Whisk your eggs and then... Yeah, into a nice hot pan. And I don't fold the omelette until there is a little bit of colour on it. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just interesting seeing how they'd, their relationship, because I think it's so crucial in how both, and the water slide in, like those two things created this, yeah, almost just this whole thing that sort of came down. So both brothers were hugely passionate about mentorship, about their team, and about achieving perfection in their restaurants. But they were chalk and sheets.

1:12:43They were totally different characters. And they, I mean, they're kind of pointing across more, you know, they absolutely adored each other. and the brotherly love was just, yeah, no words can describe it. However, as I said, they could fight incessantly and they had so many completely different characters. If your old father was here today, what would you cook for him? What would you ask him? Is there anything you miss asking him? Oh, gosh, yeah. I mean, you know, people listening out there speak to your parents. You know, it's, you've got to. Because once they're gone, they're gone. And you can no longer talk to them.

1:13:31It's so important. Yes, I would love to have him here and talk, you know, talk about fishing, talk about everything, life in general. And I do miss that. I didn't speak enough to my dad. Really? I didn't. How come, like, were you not in the same kitchen with him? Or what was the? Well, at work was work. Right. So that's slightly different. when you're away from work, then you can have a family conversation or an off-the-record conversation or things like that. But at work, it's... Did working with him before it made it harder to have a father-son relationship, do you think? I would say so, yes.

1:14:09And he would say so too, I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And he was a very, very strong character, as was Uncle.

1:14:22But, yeah, I think it's so important to be able to talk to your parents. I mean, our family is far from perfect. I think my father and my uncle didn't speak to their eldest sister for years. She was excommunicated. Oh, just family bullshit. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's the thing. It's all superfluous bullshit. It is. I just hate it, for God's sake. Put that aside and just pick up the phone and speak to each other. I think it can't be that bad. You know, my father and uncle were classic examples. They would be at each other's throats, but they would still talk to each other and they would still hug and kiss and adore each other.

1:15:05So, no, life's too short. You've got to be able to talk to your family. And, yeah, I miss him. What would I cook him? Probably tripe. It was the last thing I cooked for him before he passed away. Oh, really? And it was at the end of COVID. And I think the restrictions are just lifted and And I he loved tribe in fact, we all love offal in the family And so I nipped down to Brixton market because it's it's one of the only places that Few places in London where you can get by just a kilo of tripe I didn't want to buy a full 20 kilo from Smithfield market. So kilo of tripe and a bit of Cow foot as they call it there or cow heel and then braised it down in a lovely tomato and onion sauce with some white wine and herbs and just put it in a little Tupperware dish.

1:16:00Kept some for me, obviously. And I went to see him in his flat. And he was more or less bedridden then, but said hello to him. And he said, come here, give me a hug. I said, we're not allowed to hug too much. You know, it's still COVID. He says, well, fuck COVID.

1:16:18look I brought you something to eat cooked something for you what is it what is it so I opened up the Tupperware and he went tripe wow yes got you some braised tripe uh and his dog absolutely just smelt it too so that was the the last uh last thing that I cooked for dad and uh What was the last thing he said to you? Gosh. Well, sadly, he passed away in hospital. And it was just after Christmas. It was just after New Year. And I got a call from Maria, his wife, saying it's really looking very, very bad. He is in palliative care. But it was, I think it was 1st or 2nd of January she called me. And it was, you know, pointless me trying to drive back from the south of France in a day just to see dad.

1:17:19I may not have even been able to see him because we were then back into restrictions.

1:17:26And so I phoned his mobile phone and there was no answer. So I phoned the hospital. Maria gave me a phone number at the hospital and saying, you know, hopefully they'll put you through. I spoke to a lovely guy. I don't know who he was. And he sounded really stressed, as a lot of staff were, at the NHS at that time. And I'll never forget, he said, look, I'm not really allowed to do this, but I'll put you through. Yeah. And he put me through to Dad. Wow. So I had a lovely conversation with him. what would you remember what he was saying in that conversation he was a little bit delirious if i'm honest yeah um probably drugged up to the eyeballs um i said i loved him yeah uh said you know he was in a good place asked him if he was being looked after and he said yeah yeah yeah yeah you know and it wasn't much of a conversation because he was really on his last few breaths um but i'll never forget that and i should never say anything bad about the nhs those people worked through hell yes and they helped i can't stand it when people slag slag off the nhs it they are the actual i know there's the whole sort of they're superheroes they really are superheroes superheroes and that that that nurse or whoever he was I love what you said there, Michelle, about like, you know, the whole, sometimes it's just having a conversation with your parents about nothing.

1:19:08Yeah. And that's all it has to be. Yeah. You know? Yeah, because it's mad how many people kind of create a void to not have that. It's just fucking pointless because it's going to go like that, you know? It is. And, you know, I mean, it's just wrong. Wrong. Life's too short. When all the stuff about his legacy and Le Gavroche came out, like almost posthumously, was there anything that kind of shocked you about his impact? Because sometimes when someone's around, you can't really appreciate it until it's gone. Does that make sense?

1:19:43I mean, even now, and he's been gone a few years, even now I bump into people in the trade, or have worked in the trade, and they tell me stories about my father and how he influenced them. And it's, I'm still now learning about, you know, his impact, which is wonderful. It's very, very heartwarming. Very heartwarming. I mean, as I walked in, and it was before you were recording, we were talking about M &S, Marks and Spencers. Yeah. Well, that's the other thing is I didn't realise how much, that you could almost do a business book on this, of like how, because the sous vide thing was, years, like 40 years ahead before everyone else.

1:20:30And then it didn't work out. He did loads of stuff for M &S. What was he doing for M &S? Yeah, maybe let's go into the bounties of sort of business now. Real risk taker, real entrepreneur. I think you're right in the end. It's like he was as much an entrepreneur as he was as a chef. He made potentially even more so. Yeah, absolutely. But yeah, there's loads there. So I think what was he doing for M &S? He was doing the... So this was back in the early 80s. Yeah. And M &S... Sorry, was M &S like, was it the, as sort of high regard as it is now back then? The premium? Yes. Well, yes and no. They were only just starting really their food offer and they wanted to really be the best, the best food offer out there.

1:21:22Sure. So what did they do? They went to come see the best which was Albert and Michel Roux and I mean, I remember working at the Garrosh in the in the 80s and there was always people from Marks and Spencer's in the gavro's kitchen and that they were there for work experience and to see how three mission star food was made and to be inspired and to then take that experience on and that inspiration on into their food offer. And dad would organize trips to Rangis, the market in Paris, and various other eateries or whatever, all over France with the Marks & Spencer catering, or food team, as it were, to help them.

1:22:11And he helped also with some of the recipes and such. So it was pioneering. It really was pioneering. Because that was what sort of recipes were they? Was that for their sort of their ready meal range? I don't know what it was called then, but it was, I mean, things like the slice of smoked salmon rolled with smoked trout mousse inside, like a papillot. It was something when you look back on it was pretty basic. But it was a huge leap for supermarkets or that style. of what was being offered. Yeah. It was incredible. Because, I mean, back then, there really wasn't that much. I mean, we're talking, you know, 70s, 80s, food and supermarket was, let's say, Freybentos maybe.

1:22:59And, you know, and that kind of stuff, you know, the frozen aisle ready meal. Yeah. It is mad how supermarkets have evolved so much. So what would you say some of his business principles were then? because as you say, he was sort of this rambunctious, like, let's go, like, you know, gear six permanently or gear seven permanently. Absolutely, let's go for it. Go, go, go. So sort of risk takings one, any other sort of more sort of nuanced or subtle principles he would have about business, do you think, about running a successful business? Yeah, so understanding your business fully was key. When you say fully...

1:23:41Well, everything from the amount of washing up liquid that you use all the way up to what brand of champagne you're serving, if that makes sense. Total sense. And everything in between. Yep. And it's really, really interesting that when we closed down Le Gavroche, we had to go through loads and loads, I mean, tons and tons of paperwork and books and such like. and I stumbled across a couple of ledgers and also some... Sorry, what ledgers are like? Bookkeeping. Okay, sorry, yeah. Money coming in, money coming out, basically, of the late 60s and early 70s. And also board meeting minutes, which were incredible.

1:24:34I mean, absolutely incredible because they were all taken by hand. all you know yeah yeah uh and some some of the minutes were exactly that um why are we buying washing up liquid at x amount of pennies uh a pint because it was all old old pennies and old pennies a pint yeah yeah yeah uh or gallon i should say yeah uh when such and such a brand is less that was board meeting stuff bless you that that was board meeting really but yes because you look after the pennies and you know yeah the champagne yeah yeah yeah so those board meeting minutes were incredible reading uh the He would dig down into the finer detail and find out why You know this business was not as profitable as it should be And there was all the head counts and how much wages and this that and the other than the average spends And it was all all handwritten So the average spend of the lunch menu and the average spend on wines and if we could you know tweak this offer to maybe get a little bit more out of our guests and um value for money was that it was they're just brilliant reading i should actually publish them i think because yeah that's what there's there is i sort of put took there's a business book in there somewhere and i didn't i was so kind of not i didn't expect it but when someone's so known for the food and the sort of hospitality and gastronomy you kind of not forget about it but like you just don't it's not it's not center stage yeah exactly and you'd think a board meeting you would talk mainly finance yeah you would you would talk about uh your your your food profit margin say your your your gross profit uh and you would talk about your budget your planning for future but it's mostly finance but he would dig deep he would dig straight you know, right down into the nitty gritty of what could be done to alter the path of the profitability of your business.

1:26:55Really? So were you sitting on these meetings when there was that sort of crossover period? These particular board meeting minutes were... I know pre your time, but was there a period when you were running... Oh, God, yeah, yeah. Yeah, like describe how you'd set up a board meeting. again like because this is this is this is applicable to all the businesses in london right every business has a board meeting and i'd love i love excellence and i love i'd love to know how you guys ran them yeah so specifically like who was in the room the time did you do them like all these things matter like trying to do a board meeting for me or when i was sat in for um doing the afternoon would be hell on earth because i'm just tired like i'm not doing that i can't my brain my brain can't do numbers in the afternoon it's i can't like it's just i have to meet my accountant um his name is actually storm which is kind of hilarious for accountant but i have to meet him in in the morning because otherwise i'm like mate i'm like a two-year-old come the afternoon so there's no point in you're a morning person exactly i tend to be more of a morning person too but yeah so how would you guys do them it was it was usually afternoon it was after the lunch service um yeah yeah and there'd be champagne and you think really that's amazing there'd be champagne that's brilliant how can i think straight over a glass of champagne you know it's yeah but um but you would think that a small independent you know restaurant like le gavroche and you know small independent business wouldn't need these highbrow board meetings and to be honest i think they probably didn't.

1:28:32But I still think it's important to have these meetings, whether they're board meetings or management meetings. And that applies to any business, whether you've got only a handful of employers or shareholders, whether you have only a handful of shareholders, or you're responsible for a multi-million pound you know sort of with hundreds of shareholders i think it is important to have those meetings um even just management meetings regular updates where you sit around a table and you go through numbers and you go through the ins and outs of how to make the business better um and it's it's what are some of those things that you think you're looking at other businesses that most people don't think about like when it could be like this could make your business more profitable or better like well if if you're just going in doing your job and and nothing else it's as if you're wearing blinkers it's a bit like saying well we've done this for 20 years that's the way we do it you know that it's just wrong so if you come out of that environment, sit down with whoever else is in there.

1:29:55Wow. Okay. You then remove the blinkers, you look at figures, and you look at your daily business in a different light, and you talk about it. And you might say, I don't know, I've heard about the supplier of XYZ apparently is really doing good business, or this, that, the other. or it's just it's almost like being able to see a business from one feet to 10 ,000 feet that sort of you see it in a different light space is yes but you have to be taken out of it yes okay and you've got to be very strict about it I hate I hate meetings that go on forever you know I always like business any kind of meeting business meetings or whatever you've got to set time yeah You know, don't linger too long on any particular subject.

1:30:49Let's talk about it. Let's knock it on the head and move on. So you can set rules. You know, management meetings, no more than 20 minutes. Boom, let's get it done. We've got a short agenda. Let's hit those points. Talk about it. And then action it. And that's key as well. So it's all very good talking about it. You've got to action it. So you have a follow-up meeting. It's like management meetings maybe once a month. and you go how did that go did that work did it not work and then if the answer is oh we didn't implement it why the fuck no yeah it's you said like you said did did we need a a meeting of that gravitas probably not you said that like why was your why were why was your dad and your uncle so staunchly for it like what was yeah why and then i suppose the second question to that is like how instrumental was it to sort of the, I think one of the themes today is how you show up and like polishing your fucking shoes.

1:31:50You know, like how did it add to sort of the gravitas of the restaurant?

1:31:56I think, well, it's that trickle down, isn't it? Sure. If the business is run properly from the top and you lead by example, then the rest of the team will follow or aspire to become that. and want to climb up that ladder. So I think it's that in part. I mean, I said it earlier on, it's leading by example as well, isn't it? If you're serious and you take your job seriously and you run the business seriously, then, you know, everyone will want to emulate that and understand that, you know, they're in a place that is serious and, you know, wants to do well. no it's um it's just i love sort of just this sort of brilliant basics and i think a lot of things is brilliant brilliant basics let's talk about i know pub in the park's coming up um one of my fascinations i almost i think i listened to you talk about the podcast is with sort of the almost the evolution of restaurants like the dinner jacket rule yes it's just like how you know um i mean we can go there as well but i'd love to know in terms of pub in the park and like just i love pubs like i love um osh from the devons has been on quite a few times he's brilliant um a few swear words there yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah that was when we it was like bouncing off each other like no end um he's an amazing guy yeah brilliant but i think um the the sort of pubs are kind of who said it is it i think tom parker bowls said pubs of the secular church, which I kind of, in some respects, do agree with.

1:33:33Like, it's a hub, and it's a very British thing or, you know, UK thing, pubs. But I'd love to know sort of the birth of gastropubs for you. Like, what your thoughts are on that, when they came around. And then I would love to know some of your favourite pubs as well. Yeah. I mean, it's so true what you've just said. I mean, they are social hubs. They are not just drinking holes. Yeah, social hubs. They are social hubs. And you know a good pub as soon as you walk into one. Yeah. You can feel it. It's like a good restaurant as well. I said that earlier. You can feel it. They've got an aura. And a good pub, you should be able to go in there on your own, stand at the bar, and within 10 minutes, you've had two or three conversations.

1:34:23You've had a chat with the bar person behind. You've had a chat with a local who's just come in with his dog. And you feel part of the place. That is the sign of a good pub. So it's not just about good beer. Nowadays, good grub.

1:34:44What are some of your favourite pubs? Oh, gosh. I'm not a huge pub person after saying all of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I do appreciate a good pub. I live in South London, so the one on the Common is lovely. It's the Windmill. It's just a lovely pub. And they do good grub. And summertime there, it's just wonderful. You're on the Common. It's literally on the Common. And they've got a huge beer garden. You can sit outside with a nice pint or a nice cold drink. It just feels nice. And actually, the Windmill feels very much part of the Clapham community as well, because there are so many locals that flock there.

1:35:27Yeah. But, you know, that's just one that I'd pop in for a pint. But it is, it's... What pubs do really good food, do you think? Well, I suppose you've got the Devonshire. Yeah. And it is still a pub. And it's serving good food. It's not... I don't think it's pretentious or anything like that. and they do a mean Guinness don't they but then you know I I run a pub called the Wigmore which is part of the Langham in London and the idea behind the Wigmore was just that was to make it accessible for the locals and to make it have that local feel but serve some exceptionally good food but recognisable pub food.

1:36:24So there's a Scotch egg, there's a toasty, legendary cheese toasty, good beer and served in the right way and not expensive. So, you know, all of that is key and we've got loads of locals that go there that will just pop in for a quick pint. Yeah, it's funny. I was speaking to a bloke I interviewed the other week about um there's a lot of people say like sort of how saying he was australian he was sort of saying you know there's sort of difference and a lot of people say oh people in the uk are sort of miserable walk around but you know that you know there's a kind of that common thing well and aussie would say that yeah no no but no we were sort of debating i was like what do you think and i was like well everyone's saying this if you go on a fucking tube of course people are miserable they're on their way to work and like it's probably cold and people are not going to speak to each other right but if you put them in a pub like our secular church as as you say it was so rightly say michelle it's like within three minutes you should have three conversations like it is some cultures can only be that's not me saying we should be getting slosh the whole time but it's so ingrained in our culture like you can only really understand um understand it's always like these little pockets of utopia where it's like people will speak to someone people i wouldn't speak to on a tube put me on a pint and a beer gun on a friday i'm way more likely to have a chat Yeah, absolutely.

1:37:46Yeah, there's a great, there's a comedian called Andrew Schultz who talks about doing shows in Ireland. And he's like, there's something about walking around Ireland. And he goes, the booze is part of their tapestry. And it's like, you walk around, pubs in Ireland I love, because they play all the sort of shit, yeah. And it's like at 4pm, people have a couple of Guinnesses, and it's like everything wakes up, and then the music comes. Yeah, there's something so profound about pubs. And they are so British. I mean, I've got loads of family. All my family are in France, bar my daughter. And they all, as soon as they come to visit, want to go to a pub.

1:38:26Yeah, yeah. Why? Because it's British. And it's the fabric of life in Britain. And it's shameful that so many pubs are having to close now. And that is, it's just dreadful when you hear that. You know, so many, so many pubs having to close their doors. And we're losing that identity in Britain. How would you go about sort of saving, like, other than, like, I know government intervention is, like, that's one part of the puzzle, right? Probably quite a big jig piece, right? Yes, massive. But, like, say there are pubs struggling who are listening to this. Like, on the Instagram things we put out, the clips, right?

1:39:07People are like, we can't, like, we're so struggling to, like, get people in. Like, what are some of the things you think you would do to help those sort of institutes? Well, government help, government intervention financially. And that's not just for pubs. It's for the hospitality industry. There are many ways that they could help us. But pubs face something else. And that is the fact that booze is expensive. Younger generations are drinking less booze. and can, if they do want to drink booze, they will go to the supermarket and buy a six-pack or buy a cheap bottle of vodka, drink it at home or on the way to a party as opposed to going to a pub and having a few rounds.

1:39:51It is a shame. I don't know what we can do about that. There's no single answer. There really isn't. I've got a friend who runs quite a few nightclubs and I was having dinner with him the other day and he was, you know, the nightclubs are dying even faster. Yeah, absolutely. The nightlife is... And it's like, well, a couple of things. It's one, social media. Like, now people don't want to go to a nightclub in case they get filmed. Yeah. You know, if you're doing something stupid. Like, I was in that weird period where I could go clubbing because it was like just pre-social media. One thing. But the other thing is like bottomless brunch because now people are getting...

1:40:30The girls and guys are getting so sloshed in the morning that by the time it gets to 11 o 'clock to go out it's like i don't i can't it's 12 hours before you've even got into fabric do you know what i mean it's a proper session that isn't it oh god it is it is interesting how you um put out these things um one thing i'd i'd love to know and this is what um um rory sutherland taught me he was sat here was like we should use podcasts as a way to shout out like other small restaurants um i'd love to know like what are some of your hidden gems like in london or like yeah not necessarily favorite restaurants but those ones that aren't particularly obvious yeah yeah well there's one that i really enjoy in clapham that's only been open a few years now and that's called plusar um that's opposite northcote pub yes yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah a little corridor of a restaurant small restaurant yeah um and the team in there really doing very well i mean i really enjoy that i've been i've been there five or six times and my daughter and Sunday law as well.

1:41:27It's really unpretentious, well-cooked food, nothing silly, no froths and foams and flowers or anything silly like that. It's just good. Some really interesting wines as well, really nice interesting wine list, lovely friendly service. Yeah, I really enjoy it. And it's just got that lovely neighbourhood feel to it. And, you know, I live in a 15 20 minutes away from it. So I pop in there whenever I can so this And that's that's really heartwarming to see as well. Yeah, to see small places like that Succeed and do well because whenever I walk past it's always full. So they're obviously doing very well More and more difficult for me to get a table now, but but it's That's heartwarming, you know and it's let's not always talk about negatives and talk about you know the pubs that are closing and restaurants the hospitality industry finding it more and more difficult um you know let's showcase and say there are positive stories out there that's one of them anywhere any other sort of places hidden gems underrated not that i've been to recently i've been i've been to some very very well-known big you know mitch and starred restaurants recently i've been i've been trying to work my way around because I've because I've been working so damn hard at the restaurant at Gavroche over the years I've I've got a lot of restaurants you're going to then which one what's on your sort of yeah I've got a lot of catching up to do so I've been trying to do all the one Michelin star restaurants in London and so you know I've been to Mountain recently I've been to um I was going to say BB but BB haven't got their Michelin star yet which is shameful bloody bloody good um Cole I'm trying to remember I went to Ikoi recently and it's got two stars oh the oh the guys names escape me Cole guys coming on the podcast soon yeah yeah George isn't it George I can't remember his name either sorry I'm terrible with names too um that was bloody good really Jesus yeah really really good um but yeah it's it's really great and it's you know that Michelin star rating uh it's incredible how and it's really good I think to see the different styles that they've got all these one mission stuff there's no it's not one you know one size fits all they're not going to be all the same yeah but I like because I think yeah what are the different styles so I like stylistic and I love that I love all that stuff kind of achieve the end goal like brown white almost perfect way it's the same thing right yeah what are the difference yeah because both of those omelets were mitchellin style exactly exactly but it's like how you get there and like and i think i think that's where you can put your soul in your work which i think is really all your personality in your work is really important so what are some of the sort of different textures in these restaurants that you've seen so i mean it's if you ask the michelin guide and i'm sure if they were here today they would they would back me up on this what makes a mitchellin style it's food yeah they will say first off it's what's in the plate.

1:44:40So it has to be great ingredients, really well cooked, obviously. And what they're looking for as well is consistency. So it has to be really consistent. So if they come in on a Tuesday, it has to be exactly to the same level on the Wednesday, the following day or whenever. and they want to see the character and the character and the soul of the owner or the there has to be real identity to the place so a place like St. John's for example where it's They might be serving up one day a boiled ham, parsley sauce, mashed potato. That's it on the plate. But it is the best ham you can get your hands on.

1:45:32It is beautiful mashed potato and a parsley sauce to die for. You know, lump-free, has a wonderful flavor, depth of flavor, a freshly chopped parsley, et cetera. So simple. Really, really, really pared down simplicity. But it's perfect. but you could go to another mitchin star restaurant one mitchin star would be equivalent same level yeah where you will have little flowers on the main course and it will be you know 100 ingredients in there uh and it totally totally different totally different yeah it has one mitchin star but they're they are a reflection of the person that's running the restaurant they are a reflection of their character uh and it's not one one's better than the other no it it's just two different styles of cooking but are reaching the same level of you know staying standard as it were it's very very difficult to understand at times i mean even me as a seasoned pro i think a lot of it is again it's i think putting your soul in your in your in your work in any kind of creative pursuit is it creates it's one of those things you can only notice it when it's not there it's you have to look in reverse right it's like it's so as i said earlier you walk into a restaurant and you can feel an aura yeah you can feel it yeah so it's exactly the same the example is just like uh for me is june at the ninth right it's like or sorry the ninth is his um you can feel his just mark on everything as you go in and it's like not pretentious food at all it's just but it's like he said a great thing which is like your favorite restaurant should transcend the menu yeah and he is interesting because again this is what rory was telling me is like when when you ask them their favorite restaurant if you say you're on like a dinner party is most people will say they're the restaurant that gives them the most status So they'll usually say a three-star.

1:47:35It's like, oh, how many times have you been to that restaurant? So it's like, oh, once. And what Rory's thing is, and there's probably a sliding scale of this, is like your favourite restaurant is actually the one you go to the most. Maybe not Nando's, but something like the 9th or the Devonshire, where you go four or five times a year and quite happily. How did you, so when you got into, when you took over Le Gavroche, in terms of let's stick on this sort of the in the lanes of putting your soul in your work so you've got this your dad's created this hugely successful restaurant global kind of status you then come in how what was sort of the unforeseen challenges in terms of building your own path putting your soul which isn't your dad's into into very difficult yeah yeah very very difficult because I'm he said right I'm I'm retiring you know it's all yours now like Kelly was I know he He was finding it very very difficult to let go Understandably so how old was he when you retired?

1:48:43Oh Gosh Late 50s I suppose must have been trying to figure it out Early 60s late 50s early 60s. I mean he said retired, but he didn't He carried on working, I suppose a bit like me now. I haven't really retired. I'm still working. But he said that he'd stopped working at the Gavroche. But he hadn't. He was always there, always present. Not in the kitchen, obviously, but he would come in for dinner. He would pop in all the time. He would be at the meetings. And he would always have something to say. yeah fuck's sake yeah fuck off I'm in charge I can't help it you're doing this I should be this way that way Jesus it was very hard I mean it was it was fraught at times how did you manage him then that's almost the bigger manager you couldn't you couldn't you couldn't manage my old man no one could manage him but it's mad like what but it's mad because you did eventually over time create your own yes but like but talk me through that period.

1:49:57So, yeah, I mean, it took a long, long time. And to be honest, the last thing I wanted to do was alienate, you know, our loyal customer base because by then Gavroche was already a, you know, an iconic name and an iconic destination and had a, you know, a huge following, worldwide following. So the last thing I wanted to do was take certain items off the menu and just tear it all up and start again. So out of respect for what Le Gavroche was, I had to start changing things slowly, not overnight. So putting my imprint on the menu was a very, very slow thing, and it took forever. But it took, I mean, it wasn't just that.

1:50:47It was also imposing my way of working and my understanding of service as well. like the jacket rule for example the tie rule um i think it was the early 90s when i uh i said to silvano look you know i've had enough of this bloody tie rule um so sorry that was so the rule before you to go you had to have a tie and a gentleman jacket and tie right um you know i i said when i go out i don't wear a tie uh you know let's just drop this rule drop the title uh And Silvana was okay with it. But the old man, when we announced this at the meeting, he went, you sure? Well, why the hell do you want to do that?

1:51:27I mean, all our guests here wear ties. They get dressed up for dinner. And, you know, it's gavroche. It's not your little restaurant around the corner. I said, no, no, come on, Dad. We have to live with our times. Let's drop this tie rule. Let's go for it. So we dropped the tie rule. It wasn't the end of the world. we we we didn't lose any custom um and you know it was fine and then a couple of years after that i said i think we really should drop the jacket rule as well oh my god oh jesus what did you say when you said that oh i think it took me into the apex of that we'll see do you remember what you said well not words that i wish to say now i mean i know i know you said i could i could swear a bit but this is just no no no i mean it took me i think the best part of a year to to finally put my foot down and say nah sod this no more jackets or no more you know we can we can drop this jacket How did you have the confidence or build the confidence to do that?

1:52:37I think I think after just constantly constantly saying to him look we've got to do this We've got to do this he'd be relented and he said okay, let's do it. But I mean he was he was seriously Seriously worried that it would affect the business I mean he said no, we can't do this. You know that the Ritz still hasn't still now has it um all the the clubs as well still had that, you know, very very strict rule and a few other restaurants did as well. And I said, no, no. Wearing a jacket doesn't mean that you can afford to eat at Gavroche. It doesn't mean that you're not worthy enough. I said, it's just wrong, absolutely wrong.

1:53:24And we want our guests to be comfortable. if you feel uncomfortable wearing a jacket fine it's about the person it's not about what you're wearing sure um and and you know he was adamant he says oh we're going to get the wrong people dining with us and all our regular guests are going to be pissed off and we're going to lose custom and you know this is this is the end of you know gavrosh as it you know as i envisaged it All of that. We went with it in the end. And I knew I'd won the argument when a few weeks later he bowled in for lunch without tie or jacket. Hilarious. And we did get a few sarky comments, you know, from some of our older generation loyal guests.

1:54:12He'd say, oh, getting the riffraff in and this and that. And look at that table over there. They couldn't be bothered to get dressed up. Well, that table over there probably spent twice as much as you did. Well, I didn't say that, but, you know, it's, yeah. So that was one of the big changes. Were there any other big changes? Because I think reinvention is really important. Yeah. And, you know, going back to that, but also it was very important to bring the average age down of our guests. Because when I took over in the late 80s, it was, and officially 91, but I was already in charge in the late 80s, the average age of the punters coming to Gavroche was in the high 60s.

1:54:59Really? Yeah. And they were all from a certain kind of souche, as it were. And that's bonkers. Give them another 10 years, they'd all pop their clogs or, you know, retire to the countryside and be no longer with us. Yeah. So it was so important for me to bring that average age of the diner down and to refresh our customer base. So getting rid of the tie and the jacket rule was one step towards that, making it more sort of…

1:56:02customer friendly for want of another, you know. It was just horrendous. The portions were gigantic. I mean, I know people ate a lot more back then as well. But still, you want to leave a restaurant full, yes, but you don't want to leave the restaurant bloated, so much so that you just can't move. I do quite like that thing. Well, yeah. But, you know, and just to lighten the atmosphere as well, the service as well, when I took over, and Silvana would be able to tell you as well, the rule then was the front of house didn't talk to their guests unless they were spoken to or asked a question really it was so so quite strict and formal almost like when they're like you know sometimes they're like looking at you you feel like you're being um it's almost like a paranoia when you're dining because you feel like they're looking at you was it kind of a bit like yes wow and and it was a hush and you were scared to you know clunk your your cut three or anything and It was hallowed turf and it was, you know, the temples of gastronomy.

1:57:02It was more like eating in a bloody morgue. It's horrible. I hate those places. And so slowly but surely, with Silvano's help, we brought a much more friendly atmosphere in the restaurant and make it more conducive to enjoyment. But that was, you know, high-end restaurants in the 60s, 70s, and early 80s, which I wanted to break away from. What were some of the changes you came up with with Silvana? Like in terms of just taking that, the kind of the, I don't know, the sting out of it. Yeah, that hard edge. Yeah, the hard edge is what it is, softening it. It's communication. Yeah. And it is communicating with your guests and making them feel at ease.

1:57:49from, you know, because Gavroche was intimidating. If you'd never been there before, I mean, you know, high-end Michelin-style restaurant, the whole process of it, you're going down into the basement as well, which is intimidating, in a darkened restaurant, you know, and very, very opulent. You know, all of that if you're not used to fine dining, and I hate that moniker, fine dining, but you know what I mean. and you're about to spend a lot of money, that can be very intimidating for someone who's maybe saved up a long time or has never been to that kind of restaurant. So the idea was to break that cycle, make people immediately as they came in, first step, massive, massive sort of welcome, break the ice.

1:58:41How far have you traveled today? Or the weather's been terrible today. or, you know, let me take you down the stairs or would you like a drink at the bar? Really, really engage with your guests. Within the first few minutes, you've really broken that ice. And then that has to continue all the way through service. So by the time they've got the order, they know the waiter's name. The waiter knows where they come from, you know, all of that. So it's all about training and breaking down that kind of myth that good service is all about serving from the left and cleaning from the right and putting cutlery down this way.

1:59:25And the glass has to be 10 centimeters from here and that. All of that. It's not. No, that's not great service for me. Yeah. And great service is about connection, connecting with your guests. The one thing I wanted to ask is, so when it went from three stars to two stars, and you were kind of running the ship there, what was hard about that, specifically the relationship with your father? Yeah. Because I didn't, yeah, how did you, because what you're telling me, if he went ballistic about a fucking dinner jacket, then like. He didn't. But then I also think it's important, because I feel like that's when you forge your own style from what I've heard.

2:00:10So it's kind of like it was probably the best thing to happen, but also the worst thing. I don't know, it's kind of talk me through that period. Yeah, so I mean, that was a very, very tough period. But in hindsight, I think it was 100 % correct what the guy did. They removed the third and took us down to two, which I will always say this and I've said it to to a mission guide inspectors is I would rather be a happy two than a miserable three and by that I mean exactly what I was talking about there service-wise where people come in and they have to hush and they're you know they're there some three Michelin stars are not convivial to enjoyment.

2:00:59It's just too highbrow for me. And I'm a chef and I'm in the industry and all that. And there are certain three-star restaurants where I just don't get it. It's too much. You know, just give me good food, for God's sake. Give me great service. What are the powerfullest things you don't necessarily agree with? Well, not agree with, it just doesn't float your boat. endless tasting menu, tasting menus that go on for too long. Chefs that take themselves too seriously, for God's sake. It's food. What, like l 'artiste sort of chefs? It's food. Yeah. You know, chefs sometimes are too stuck up. And, you know, cooking for their own egos.

2:01:40Come on. Come on. It's about pleasure. Dining out is about pleasure. So, yeah, it didn't affect the business at all. um, going down from three to two. The old man was a bit upset, but he actually wasn't that much. I mean, we've had a couple of words about it, but it was no, no ranting or raving quite on the contrary. Um, and, and I think it was the right thing. We, we were no longer at, well, it was no longer dads. So he was no longer in the kitchen. So absolutely. Yeah. Take it away because he's no longer there. Give me two stars. I'm happy with that. Very happy with it. Um, and, uh, But three-star restaurants sometimes are shackled.

2:02:23And by that, I mean that it can… Create your own prison sort of thing, do you think? Yeah, it can sometimes stunt the ability to do a bit of freestyle and to be more creative, I feel. I mean, there are many three-star restaurants out there that you can go in several times in a year and you will eat exactly the same menu. Exactly. It becomes robotic and soulless, which Gavroche was never. Gavroche had a soul, had an identity, had a life, and created so many fabulous memories for so many people. And that was important to me. So it was a tough time, but it wasn't actually that tough in many respects and it was probably the best thing that happened.

2:03:20It's interesting what you say. One thing I want to speak to you about is sort of stamina and like long... Sipping water. Yeah, yeah, go for it. Because I think, and what you're saying about almost the three stars being a... I believe like your passion can be a paradise or a prison and by that I mean like you can work, you start off doing something you absolutely love but then it comes this period where it becomes a real grind and it's like you've got to keep making sure you're loving it, that's one thing I've and yes motivation is very very tough, self motivation yeah because that's what I want to ask you about because I was speaking to a guy with this podcast right so I was like I love doing this but obviously there's a lot of work behind the scenes but that's all fine because I love doing it I need to be doing three a week, I need to be going harder, I need to be putting out three a week and I went for lunch with a guy um he's got a big um who's mates for the guy who's got big podcast he's putting out three a week and he's like you don't want to do that he's committed to three a week and his his passions become his prison and it's almost like the three stars like he's got so much unhappy three star versus happy two star he's like mates do one a week and also you know don't always put out big guests because then you create an expectation just yeah and i'd love to speak to you michelle about longevity because i want to be doing this like i think you there's a book called like the marathon chef which you wrote um like what's the art of there's a there's a quote by ernest shekelton the explorer who was the first to go across um the north or south pole i can't remember it's like by endurance we conquer and i think there's something i love to talk to you about endurance like what have you learned about keeping the love for your work alive yeah in yeah well i was a marathon runner as you alluded to and uh uh that's that's certainly endurance isn't it and uh i i think i'm a couch to 5k kind of cat but slowly milking getting a little bit faster yeah it's i think you've got to love what you do yeah and then it's it's not a chore yeah um so for me you know the restaurant world hospitality is a way of life.

2:05:29It's not a job. Okay, I was born into it, but I could have chosen not to go that route. But I did. And I don't see it as a job. I don't see it as a bind, as a chore. I just see it as a way of life. So you take that away, you know, take that away, then it's easy to endure and it's easy to just carry on. I can't see myself really stopping. I mean, I always want to be involved in and around hospitality because I love it and I want to inspire the next generation and I want to help the next generation be better than me. I mean, that is the best achievement. If somebody that I've trained or somebody that I've inspired to become a chef or work in the hospitality industry achieves better than me, I've succeeded.

2:06:37Yeah. Why do you think hospitality is, like, what is it you love so much about it? Why do you think it's good for human nature, like humans? My God, we need hospitality. Yeah. We need pubs. We spoke about it earlier. We need social hubs. We are social beings. That's why I'm you know The the onslaught of the screen the iPad or computer screens for communicating telephones Dating why Yes, Matt, it is mad to be able to talk to you. Yeah, you know to to be able to maybe share a pint with you or Or walk into a pub and strike up a conversation with somebody that you've never met before. That's what humans do or are supposed to do.

2:07:26And that is so important. That's what hospitality can do. Do you know Natura, the supplier? Yeah, I interviewed Franco Fabini the other week. He's an absolute legend. And his whole thing's flavour. Like he's got a beautiful book called In Search of the Perfect Peach, which I think is a great book. and um but one of the things we were talking about is obviously if you zoom out like i was like what was what was the history of restaurants when did they start and he was saying and he was like i may be wrong here but it's about 400 years ago and the word restaurant means like rest stop i think it's what restore restore yeah and it's almost and we ended up talking and it did as i said that fun happens off piece but we were kind of like the restaurant is the campfire like if you're looking at like hunter gatherers it's where we now come together and we share and we talk and like he was like they're never going to go away because it's like it's this human innate desire which we which we crave and it's like makes us who and also like everything important happens around food of course it does like every big meat business decision going on now there's it'll be around food like how they're going to sort out the wars there'll be food like or not to say or meals or that there's this, it's just something about that, about us that's pulled to it.

2:08:46I think it's timeless. A few more things, if it's all right, and we'll wrap this up. Yeah. So you worked, didn't you, is it the Champilly? Where did you work? Champ, the... Oh, hang on. The military bit. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. Did you work for the French, cook for the French president? Yeah. Who was the French president then? So the... What was that period like for you? I had to do my military service because in France it was still, you'd still get called up. This was the early 80s. Wait, so you, sorry, I misinterpreted that then. So you actually did military service? Yes. Oh, wow. I thought you were just like, you were cooking for the military.

2:09:29Well, I did end up cooking, yes. Right. But I got called up to do my military service because I had dual nationality, French and English. And I was already working then. And when I got called up, I said to my mom and dad, look, this is ridiculous. This is a waste of a year. You know, I'll relinquish my French nationality. And they went, no, you can't do that. You've got to have your French nationality. So they persuaded me to do it. And dad said, don't worry. I know a few people. I can pull a few strings and I can make sure it's not a waste of a year. So off I went to the barracks, had my hair cut, learned how to be a soldier for three months.

2:10:10marching how to shoot a gun and doing all all all this military stuff that you you're supposed to learn as a soldier and then after the three months was up elapsed i was called up to be a chef at the elize palace that was it sorry yeah so at the elize palace um it's basically the equivalent of number 10 downing street as it were uh and all the chefs there were military uh so i cooked for President Valéry Giscard d 'Estaing and then Mitterrand. I'm never going to say that. And kept my French nationality. Sure. And what did you learn from working? Did you have much interaction with him? Was there anything you picked up?

2:10:58No. Well, God, no. But what a place to cook. I mean, it was banqueting, but with opulence. I mean, I saw truffles served as a vegetable. I've never seen so much caviar in all my life. I've never seen it since I mean kilo tins of caviar just Benches and benches of it. It was just a complete opulence unbelievable Opulence and and the The president Valeriy Giscard d 'Estaing was booted out But in French politics the president has like two or three weeks to pack his bags and say his goodbyes So yeah, so there was lots of partying then but then the incoming president Mitterrand Socialist party they hadn't been in for 14 years.

2:11:46So they had a lot of catching up to do So there was a lot of a lot of banqueting and and it really was when you staying in Were you staying in like in barracks? No No, no, no as as a chef working at the Elyse Palace We were about 30 of us young chefs. Yeah. Yeah, it's huge we were allowed to stay outside of the barracks it was very relaxed we were very privileged, thank you dad great pulling of strings there that got me that that was the other thing, in the book is your dad's beautiful ability to network what were some of the ways he could I love rainmakers and people who can just make a couple of calls why were people so drawn to him

2:12:33he i mean he had that gift he certainly had that gift because he could speak to anybody at any level so he could speak to the man on the street uh all the way up to royalty uh and uh and i think that was a gift uh and he could communicate and and with anybody and everybody uh and that that was that was definitely a gift that he had what's one truth um that you that most chefs would disagree with you on?

2:13:06It's... There's a helicopter going past... I think it's not just about the food. It really isn't. I think most chefs get it, but some chefs still think that it's just about what they put on the plate, and it's not. Really? and and so that's when you're linked this this is the symphony of service and because marco says on um bourdain uh everyone thinks a restaurant is this sort of food service setting he says it's setting service food yeah well very very quick anecdote or story um we've all been to restaurants where the food is okay. Yeah, nothing special. It's okay. But the service is shit. Yeah, I mean, really bad.

2:14:01They're surly, they're smelly, they're, you know, slapdash. Yeah, and the restaurant is, you know, maybe dirty or not kept properly. You wouldn't go back there, would you? I don't, definitely not.

2:14:19but we've all been to restaurants where the food is okay but the service is exceptional where they look at you in the eye where they will greet you where they will be smiley happy look after you take your money at the end of the evening and say thank you yeah we all go back to those places we all do with without a shadow of a doubt so it's not just about the food uh it really is it's the experience uh and it's how you're treated as a guest and i say guest not a customer because that is the way it's a subtle difference you should be treated as a thing is because because they you worked for the at fairlawn well the gazelles isn't it or the casalettes and i think the pride seeing everyone as a private guests versus like what's different between a guest and a customer because i think um almost you you guys spending time there and being working for like a um were they like the what was private house private house but that that was probably quite instrumental to the success of it because you saw every guest as a private guest absolutely what's the difference between a guest and a customer and like yeah so you so in private house that you know everybody dining were guests guests of the family and you know that in my view is how arrest a good restaurant should portray itself and They're not as guests not customers.

2:15:49It's a subtle difference and and it You know a customer is somebody that's paying. Okay. I guess is paying as well paying the bills. Yes but It's just if you start thinking they are guests they are not customers So it changes the frame of mind. And they are guests in your house. So you look after them as your guests. How important is the sort of surprise, do you think, in service? Surprise as in? As in, have you read Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Godara, that book that's been going around? No, I haven't. It's about 11th Avenue, I think, in New York. Oh, yeah, yeah. That went from the 50th. basically how he took it from the 50th restaurant in the world, which is still bloody kid, to number one and all that journey.

2:16:40And I've talked about it a lot on this podcast, but one of the things he talks about is the surprise, the element of surprise. And like, I think, you know, again, listening to each table, each table is its own sort of theatre. And I think one couple were saying, you know, we've been to every restaurant and we've done everything in New York. They're on their engagement. Oh, sorry. Anniversary. Yeah, anniversary. Yeah, got it in the end. and they're like, I haven't tried a New York hot dog. So he goes out and they'd hired and they got someone to bring in one of these hot dogs but they put it on a really nice plate.

2:17:12It's a beautiful element of surprise. I think Osh talks about having a medicine cabinet which is behind the scenes. Again, front stage and, sorry, backstage, front stage. It's like if someone's a bit miffed, it's like, we'll bring out this. And it's like, yeah, how do you think about surprise when you wanted to add that kind of more mellow... We all like surprises. Yeah. You know, if you can incorporate that in your service or in your menu. And, yeah, of course, we all like surprises. We all like nice surprises, not bad surprises, obviously. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

2:17:51Look, let's wrap that up. I've absolutely loved that, Michelle. It's been an absolute joy. and yeah I really wanted to get into kind of the other side of everything you've built with your family and the heritage, the business side and I've just learnt so much so thank you so much really appreciate that my pleasure that was brilliant cheers right that's flown past Jesus thank you so so much for listening to the podcast I really really do appreciate it if you liked that episode only if you liked it please do give it five stars subscribe tell all your friends families foes next door but one cat dog whatever please tell everyone about this podcast it means the world to me and i really want to understand what your pain points are as the new wave of challenger food and drink brands please do hit me up on linkedin search dan pope and hopefully we can together create a more meaningful and powerful podcast for the next wave of challenger food and drink brands thank you so much