Aaron Trotman, NON: The First to Disrupt Alcohol Free Wine, Reducing Complexity to Simplicity, Launching NON into Tokyo, London, New York, Sydney, Seoul, Barcelona, Building a Global Brand by Focusing on the Top 1% of Distribution

43:25So I had revenue coming in that I could live and then push it through. And it was 2019. So it was only nine months into the business when COVID hit. So I just signed a distribution deal with the Australian guys. And they're like, oh. I just signed a distribution deal with the Australian guys. And I'm like, oh, shit. And everyone's like, oh, shit, obviously, when it first happened. and I was like, well, suck eggs, you got to take it. Sounds like a whole lot of your problems, champion. The Japanese guy was already messaging me and he wanted his own label. He wanted it where you need to have a nutritional panel, but the Japanese is design.

44:07So he didn't want a sticker over the top. So anyway, I was like, what am I going to do with the rest of the stock? Like, oh shit, what's happening? and then um i just printed a sticker off and i like just got the light right and i photoed it really well i'm like hey how's this look like a sticker and he's like oh that's fine i'll take it i was like oh shit all right sorry i got rid of the stock and then that sold out before i got there and then singapore sold out before i got there and i was only two people at that point in time but actually the government funding of covid actually was really helpful because businesses got injections of cash there was no there was job keeper I think it was called it was like 750 bucks a week so we know any salary costs as well so it was actually perfect timing to start a business because the government funding they were giving out for businesses and we could operate fully because we were technically a we're a food business so we're providing a service so it wasn't really anything and then you just had your baseline so you so you didn't know how it was doing so in terms of that and then it got to the point where i was just like everyone you know i met some people my neighbor downstairs was like oh man i hope you get some money you know come from investment banking blah blah i was like oh sweet and then taught me a lot of things and put decks together and met people and they're like nah it's too small it's like you know at that point i think it was like 100 grand turnover or something like that and it's like fuck off get out of here you know tell me when it's a 10 million I'm like I can't make a 10 million dollar business anyway so I was like I remember ringing my mate who's my co-founder business partner he runs a US business he lives in LA he's an Australian guy he made a lot of money off a track a song that came out what track?

45:58do you remember it was a big EDM track called In My Mind by an Axl I'll do a remix of it you'll know it's been on tv yeah trust me it was in my mind yes in my i went i'm not that's a fucking tune mate that's like the so that's josh my business partner that's sick yeah i mean i like sometimes i'm in the gym and i'm like trying to like go for on the running machine yeah i'm just like let's fucking have it i'll put that bad boy and it's like yeah next gear seven yeah all right we'll send him this soundbite and this one will keep him and I was like I was like give me 100 grand he's like yeah I've always wanted to do something with you we've been best mates for 20 years yeah that happened and then I had another I was constantly trying to raise money and then had another deal on the table at the end of 2021 Wasn't a very good deal But When you Sometimes a deal And some money is better than no money Why wasn't it a good deal?

47:07It wasn't It wasn't enough money It wasn't genuine gross capital There Which means that I have to raise again Raising sucks It's really hard It takes all your time and attention And then And they had this weird thing in the contract that my lawyer said they'd never seen before where I had to give them my shares to them and they would vest back to me, basically make sure I stayed in the business. I was like, fuck off. I'm taking my shares. That makes me like prostituting your own brand. Yeah. I mean, fuck. Where am I going, dude? I'm a loser ex-DJ. He's never had a job. I'm not going to have a skill set that's worth any money to anyone.

47:48so anyway I asked advice from a friend of mine and then afterwards they were like send me the deck and I was like oh no I don't need this my daughter was just about to be born as well and I was freaking out this is all happening and then I ended up putting the round together in the next couple of months after that getting funded and we sold off equity in the first round and then we have a follow-on system. So there's no dilution. The fund's like, hey, these milestones, you can draw down a little bit more. But that sounds very, I've got mates, my mates local who have just been through a fundraise and it's one of those things where you think it's going to be done in three months.

48:32And I'm just like, that is eating your own blood or drinking your own blood, going for a fundraise. Going for a fundraise for alcohol-free wine, like you made that sound quite easy. Like what did you actually put in the decks? Like, how did you paint the vision? Because I think... They're from drinks. They knew the category data and stuff. It was... Honestly, if I look back at some of the old decks, and I still have them, I'm just like, holy shit, they were bad, you know? Compared to what I can pump out now and being able to hire smarter people and learn from them. I don't believe in hiring anyone that is less than you.

49:10Like, you should selfishly, if you've got some cash, you may as well try to hire the best people. like get an education yourself you know um so they're really shitty um but uh most i see now the qualities of probably without i don't want to sound like a fucking idiot or wanker but like the qualities of what makes it successful founders and you know it's got that there's the there's the grit component you know have you got half a brain do you understand sales can you use a spreadsheet good enough do you do you know the different like some of the stuff in the p &l you know you don't need to be an expert in it but you need to know all the bits and the workings of the business the grit component yeah the grit component yeah and i learned i learned i learned that from kate uh so kate my cmo is um uh she was the marketing head of marketing for C-Lip in the US.

50:12She's like, yeah, Ben loves this book called Grit. And then I read that. I'm like, oh, that's what it is. And then it was just the other day, I didn't finish it, maybe the first 15 minutes before I got distracted driving home. But Mark Cuban in the Lex Freeman podcast, he was just on a couple of weeks ago. The first thing he talks about is that exact thing. So I'm not, now it sounds like I'm kind of like ripping him off what he said but like that's actually now that now that it's looped with me and i actually understand like so what did he say in that podcast about grit just about grit can you sell something you know do you know enough about enough to to get the job done here that's that's what will get you backed because the product could be the product right and i have an amazing liquid so that bit that bit's fine there's plenty of people that have really good products but you'll talk to them like yeah i want to get this thing done in you know two years and if I can sail off into the sunset.

51:10Yeah. No one's backing that shit. No one's getting around it. There's a guy I've had on the podcast called David Hyatt. I don't know if you've heard of David Hyatt. Yeah. Gene's business. Ben really likes him. He was a dream guest and he came on, but he told me something that like, might as well get fucking tattooed on my ass, mate. Do you know what I mean? It's like, maybe not actually, I'm a bit dodgy. But he was like, your hope needs grit. Yes. And like when I'm going - Yeah, that's exactly it. Your hope needs grit. and it's like you can have the vision at the top you need that grit when you said like you almost talked about grit as a as a full circle so you said like can you sell something have you got the what have you got the cojones when things get tough where did you have to level up your grit over the last five years what were the points when you thought when what was the point when you just thought i can't be fucked anymore and you had to really dig in um where i've it was probably the first bit of the grit was probably just getting focused and in the brand guidelines and not what do you mean by that it's just like not going oh that's a shiny little thing over there and grabbing that and going and grabbing that and just being like really fast and loose with it and actually building a brand and not confusing consumers and all that sort of thing so that bit of grit for me was not like it was it was hard for me because i had to pull myself in so you start to all the things that made it work in the first place as you get bigger in scale you have to pull those things in because you can't do them because you start to speak to more customers and get bigger and wider and then if once you start doing that you have to be very clear about what you do and the problem that you solve and all those sorts of things when you're starting and you're at 100k.

53:04It's just fast and loose. You're like, fuck it, whatever. This feels good. Let's do it, you know? Yes. You can't do that anymore. So that required grit because that to me sounds like it doesn't require grit. For me, it did because I really struggle with it because you're trying to run so hard and so fast forward and then there's just this thing here pulling you back, you know? And that's been a bit for me that's been really gritty and then obviously running out of money as well. That bit was really hard. When did you run out of money? Oh, well, I ran out of money before we raised, you know. It was like a couple of weeks before I drained our entire savings account.

53:45My missus checked it. She was like, hey, where's all the money gone? We're going where else, babe? And I was just like, I'm glad you know this now because there's more coming in in a couple of weeks. You know, that was the grit as well. just with like the bootstrapping and the finance, I think. So tell me, so you look at your savings account and you're at zero. Yeah. You look yourself in the mirror. What's the feeling in here, in your soul? Oh, you feel sick. And what do you say to yourself here just to fucking keep going? Yeah, that's it. That's the grit, right? You're like, you'll pull this off.

54:17You'll pull it off. You've got it. You've got the best restaurants in the country. You're in Japan. You're in Singapore. You can do it. It's going to happen. and then you just got to figure it out and just keep going and work hard and long and not sleep.

54:39I'll be the last person that says on a podcast that I've got that 4 a.m. routine and I do this and I do that. That's not true. I wake up, I drink far too much coffee. I'll have a banh mi for lunch and maybe a dim sum and, you know, get home and cook a decent dinner and hang out with my daughter and she stays awake later than me and I'm in bed by 7 o 'clock and up at 5, you know, but that's my day. Like, it's not – and that's the grit as well because, like, you're not actually – well, I think it feels like grit, but it's lifestyle but also it's a bit of grit because, like, you've got a grit for the energy and you're just, like, you're so in it, pushing so hard because of your grit that you forget to eat.

55:20coffee works really well because it suppresses your hunger, obviously. I love coffee so much, mate. I was feeling like an anxious freak on the train. I was like, I feel like I'm being plugged into National Grid, boy. I love that and I think it's so true. And what were the steps you took when you got zero money in the bank? How did you get the money back in? Were you just calling people? What were you doing? was selling, you know, selling stuff. Our main distributor, we had really good terms with. So, you know, distributors like 60 days, nine days or whatever, but they had a financing option, which has pretty much been the saviour of the business really at the start because it was very low interest.

56:06You know, you're not going to get any money from a bank. So, we sold stock, got paid for it. We sold stock, got paid for it. So, that kept it going and growing the business. and being able to sit across everything and set up a business before meant that I didn't need to spend a whole heap of money on anyone in marketing because I could do it all. I didn't need to spend any money on bookkeepers and accountants because I could do it all on zero myself.

56:36I didn't need to spend anything on sales because, well, selling is selling, right? So, you know, that's just getting down there and having a car. So, I had a car. And then there's servicing orders and running Shopify and then build a Shopify store. And the thing I couldn't do, the technicality was the design and take a good photo. So it was kind of low cost in many ways because I could do most of the stuff that the business needed at that point in time. Now the stuff that sits in the back of Shopify and stuff, fuck, I couldn't even tell you what it is. And I'm not interested in learning it because that's not, there's no point we said before we hit record you said i only get on with the crazies yeah uh like likewise there's half the reason i've got this podcast um like i think i think i've got a kind of a heavy dosage of crazy in me in some respects i think that it's interesting how would you say you're crazy um Um,

57:41when Ben Branson told me he has autism and ADHD I was like fuck I'm so similar to you so I went and got tested for it and then I got to the psychologist and I was like, well, she's definitely got ADHD. I'm like, yeah, if I had to guess, I reckon I'm probably 80 % ADHD, 20 % autism. There's a bit of a blend in here and I was really struggling with the team getting to the size it was and people coming to me. Well, they come to me for something emotional and I felt the empathy but it was like a puff of black, metaphorically puff of black ash would come out of my mouth and i'm like i look like such a prick right now um so i and there was also my my my wife and and when my daughter was born and she was like i need you to do more and i'm just like i'm clapped out you know like i i don't see i don't get it i couldn't literally process it whatsoever so then I got tested for it and I'm like oh that's why I'm weird and crazy and have these like insane ideas and push boundaries further and think that everything's going to be okay and just get attracted to people that are somewhat insane as well in many ways you know I went around to my friend's house before an idols concert who's someone I really like and I like him just because he's so interesting and he was having mushroom powder and AG1 before the concert.

59:23And I was like, that's why I like you. You're like, fucking, I don't know anyone that will put that combination together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. AG1's Athletic Greens, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Fair play. With magic mushroom powder. It's like mixing them together before a concert and I'm like, okay. Yeah, yeah, that's what you want to do. how what you said there about the autism affecting the leadership and the the ducks i think ben got tested i need to like i've done i did a podcast with him about it hasn't gone live yet i think he got tested in between seed lip and season yes i think he did so he wasn't running a full team you said you were dealing with the pressure of the team getting bigger they were coming to you and what you said about i fit i felt the empathy but a kind of a black ash would come out my mouth how was the from the leadership perspective like talk to me a bit more about that because it feels like it that was a really challenging period uh it was actually a big unlock because i just was transparent with everyone and told them Right.

1:00:30You know, the people that work closer to me, those guys are in the senior positions, obviously. They're like, oh, I could have told you that for free. I'm just like, oh, thanks, guys. But there is people with it like Ben as well. There's almost something to be said about the magnetism of it too as well and just the way that people think and you're just like, I don't know how you think like this. So it's really intriguing and that actually helps a lot for the team too because you're that wild and crazy and like, yeah, let's go for this. Everyone's like, you're fucking stupid and insane, but sure.

1:01:12Or, you know, the team will go, I'm like, we're going to do this, this and this. And everyone's like, what? And then you put them together and they're like, oh, that works so well. I would never have gone and seen those three things and put them together. it was just these like aluminium plinths in the showroom is one of them what's a plinth like just a thing that stands up so a display thing an aluminium plinth and all these and and these other bits and uh that are in there it's very minimal and kate was like why the fuck are we buying these things i'm sorry about it and uh i was like oh shit i didn't see it yeah this works so well this is like so on brand because the brand is just what's in my head and all the stuff that i like and see that's all that's all it is um so back to the team and the management anyway um it was a big it was a big unlock um because well i've just hired the help like somewhat my replacement of people and team um now and it's been a transition period over the last three months because Ben just started, my Ben, not Ben Branson, started in January.

1:02:26So he is taking a huge load off my plate and managing the team. And, you know, I don't have that experience to develop them. So they're all, I wouldn't say they were getting to the upper limit of their development within their career. but that was how big is the team now of course we've got 21 or 22 I don't know whenever I was just counting the general channel on slack to see how many wouldn't know how many people it says minus one because one's the boardroom for sending zoom links to so that's how we do it so it's just been that it's just like any HR thing don't come to me go to them you know if you're it just helped manage expectations also helped me a lot with just I didn't do it this time but generally I would avoid everyone for a week beforehand because I'm going to be so trained from all the conversations and all the talking on a week like today not today, this week so that for me has been really good and balanced and then it's been somewhat challenging at home at times because it's like it felt like when i first got it i was like well we got diagnosed i was like oh all the stuff i thought i could fix that's actually just who i am what was the stuff you thought you could fix well i went there i was just like well you know i'm either just a dick or i've got a blockage somewhere because of the black ash thing right and that I was talking about before.

1:04:15And now it's just, that's just how my brain is and that's how I think and that's how I see the world. And then I was like, oh, these press dinners and stuff that I have to do is just going to be hell, you know, because I have to do them, right? No offense to anyone that came last night. But it was like, it's 20 people, it's a lot of things coming at me. and you know it's really it's exhausting it's really hard for two or three hours and i think it's exhausting for most people anyway to do that um but to have be autistic and like have that coming at you as well is really really hard and then also you layer in the adhd and you know you want these people to like you like you are your brand right you are your product so you gotta concentrate really hard on what they're saying so i've always compared it to being um uh you know when you go for a long drive it's like let's say there was five hour drive seven hour drive and you just that feeling when you're just like absolutely fucked when you get out of the car because you've been concentrating and you haven't really been concentrating you've really been concentrating because you've been driving that's how it feels after about two or three hours of people for me and that drains like super serious but the grit is what you push through you just go again you go again you go again and that's what I've been doing as I said to you earlier like 6am to midnight I'm like I'm here let's have it I'm I'm I'm responsible for 21 people in the team getting fed putting dinner on their tables some might be the only income owners but all or they that salary looks after the mortgage you know they've got kids you know so it's it's a huge responsibility that I think about, plus my own family, of course, to make sure that I'm here and I'm moving the dial for everyone because they're all trying to move the dial for me.

1:06:15So it has to be fair and equal.

1:06:21We're going to get on to this because I think for people listening and I suppose you're watching it on YouTube, it's this beautiful cap. Was it a cap or a top? stopper closure something you'd put on top of slides on this looks like a lot of work

1:06:44tell me why you've made this I think you said on LinkedIn it's 18 months in the making this seems like after everything we've talked about like the 1 plus 1 equals 3 of your ideas of your brain to a lot of people that would look like an unnecessary cost go and build the brand, get it into more places. Why have you done this? What's in your brain, mate? So most of the stuff on the... Try and show it to people that are watching on YouTube. Most of the stuff that most brands would do, I wouldn't do a lot of what other brands do. You know, you're creating waste by getting something from Alibaba that anyone else can get and print your logo on it, right?

1:07:29that's not special. We make a really special drink. We really care about what we do and we want to innovate. So we want to innovate outside of the bottle. And, you know, I like things that are aesthetically pleasing and they're all fucking ugly. So the Le Crusade ones has been what we've been using for the whole time and that seal is really good. Le Crusade were nice enough to give me a wholesale account but the wholesale account is not that cheap. As you can imagine, Le Crusade is. So I went to an industrial designer. They're called Vert. They're based out of Sydney. I've actually seen them in one place here.

1:08:11It's called Holy Shot on Bethnal Green Road. We're having coffee every morning. But they've got Husky Cups in there. I don't know if they're in a lot of places here, but they created that. They've just created like, they're amazing industrial designers. They made like the perfect glass for like having a cigar. It had like a hook underneath, having a cigar and a whiskey. They made the perfect plate for, so the ice would sit here, but it would be perfectly, the coldness would be perfectly dispersed around the oyster. Feels unnecessary, but that attention to detail is what it is. So anyway, they've sent through six designs.

1:08:55and they said there'll be challenges with some things so if you had the mechanical lever this brings in there there's a lot of stuff that happens inside the housing of it and I was like I've got enough problems I don't need that stuff going on as well turns out this is actually way harder because and that no one had done it before where you don't have that mechanical lever and something pop in or you just put a bung in and pump it or whatever it is right so no one had just had someone that slides on so that has to be 0.02 millimeters perfect and you would change so just so you can see here so this would scratch the glass so you change that but then this would this would not seal right and then you would then you know okay well we've got the metal bit right but then the alloy needed to be stainless steel so it's food great but then it needed to have a little bit of flex in it as well so i need a bit of aluminium you've been there too or whatever it was and spring steel so then so then they did that needed to have the exact amount perfect amount of flex so it might be i don't know what the ratio is but let's just say it's like 92 stainless steel and then three percent this and three percent that give it that perfect amount of ratio so then you've got this bit then you got that bit solved and then you're like well hang on what about the rubber bung and then that you know was you know point points just the tiniest bit like you know hairline sort of stuff and that was the seal and that and then that that was getting it perfect i'm like look this neat this thing i'm making this because it has to keep the product the best and this has to be the best opera in the world because we have the best non-alcoholic drink in the world so and funnily enough now i've had i'm like yeah now you can put non on your dom you know so um And that will just go on the top of the...

1:10:45It just slides on top. But also at a bar, though, I've never seen anything like that. But it's that minimum... You know what you talk about, the aluminium plinths? Yes. It's that touch point that when you're at a bar... I think Sea Lip did it well just because the logo was just so distinctive. But that on a bar is just going to look so beautiful. Yeah, you know, people might want that and not the drink. it's a it's you know it's innovating out of the bottle um it's making your brand relevant to people's lives and you're like where did you get that stopper from you know you want to stop people um yeah so i mean the irony is it's like it's a you know stopping people in their tracks this this stopper stops people in their tracks it's that whole purple cow thing of like what can you do differently but also i think this makes it you you have the semiotics of the wine i in in a bottle you know what's in the beginning like you're not a replacement wine you've got the semiotics of of non in a wine bottle but this on the fucking top makes it look like okay this is a this isn't this isn't a wine replacement this is a whole new thing yeah and i think well everything we've talked about is kind of beautifully uh illustrated in this topper this it looks different i haven't seen anything like it before it's beautifully simple yes like it's almost so simple it's perfect if that makes sense do you know what i mean it's like it's just i just you've cut away so much stuff yeah it's just about cutting away the noise you know it's kind of funny because my brain is just like so always going like with lots of noise and everything and i think i think that's why i want to look at something when it's just minimal because it's just it's it's easier to understand and everything all the details sit somewhere else that's crazy how like there's so much going on in your head, but then it's just when you see that, it's so simple.

1:12:40I love that juxtaposition. Yeah. What would you say, if Non was a song, what would it be? If The Brown was a song? Good question.

1:12:54I've never been asked that. If it was a song. Let me come back to you because I've got a few in my head, but I don't even have one that's like really like really jumping out at me at the moment we'll come back we'll come back if none was a hotel what would that look like where that be describe that

1:13:22it'd be like it'd be like some sort of like lunar looking capsule thing that's potentially underwater or some sort of like, I don't know if you've seen some of the designs for the Neom cities that they're building in Saudi Arabia. When you say, look, like some sort of spaceship-y vibes. Spaceship-y vibes, yeah. So I don't know if that hotel exists yet. I don't know if it does. I haven't seen it. That's been a bit closer. I think the Audemars PJ hotel that they've got somewhere, I think that's pretty close to what it would look like if I'm remembering correctly. Where's that? I don't know. I have to look it up where did you where would it be Automatis, PGM I don't know no no no where would you put the non-hotel oh where would I put it yeah because you've got you've got so many countries you could be in like oh yeah probably it'd be like somewhere that'd be like really difficult to get to and worth it once you get there you know carved in the side of a mountain but you've got to climb it yourself with your suitcases it'd be something like that just to fuck with people yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:14:33What, I think the song piece is also quite, I think Lex asked it to Jeff Bezos, I think. So if I'm, well, maybe I've just fucking interpreted it differently. But I think there was a question you asked about a song describing the way people's brain thinks. And I think with everything we've talked, so I'm clicking there, there's the sounds. But I think, I don't know if I think of a song that would represent the way my brain thinks, but it'd probably be something fast-paced, like a probably some Marco Corolla sort of techno thing, just a ding, ding, ding, ding. What song would kind of best paint the tapestry of the way your mind operates?

1:15:09I think this is really interesting.

1:15:16It would be something that just kind of like chugs along and it's like just something really like interesting, just like blip happens. So, you know, that's from the old techno world where it's just like, it's just like, and then something bang happens and then there's again, you know, it's kind of. And is that like an idea popping into your brain? Yes, exactly. So in my head right now, and I fell in love with it, the song when I first heard it out. So do you know who Modorat is? No. Okay, so Modorat's got a track called Bad Kingdom, which is amazing. There's a DJ Coe's remix of it and there's a Marcel Detman remix of it.

1:15:54And they're both very different. and they're both really good. And the Marcel Detman remix is probably the one that I think with my brain, it's like, and then this lyric comes in and there's this real bit of calm and it just goes fucking bang and it just goes off again. Do you know Inspector Norse, that Inspector Norse song? That's my brain. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like the Went Home with Simpsons in court. It's like, I know what you're thinking, boy. It's like, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow. I think it is an illustrative way to see how people's brains work, especially in everything we've talked about.

1:16:29And what's crazy is you're talking about that, that song of the, you know, kind of the, the chugger, as you said, the do, do, do, do. And that kind of paints the picture of where your brain operates. But then you see this and the sound of this cap or topper, you know, almost looks like almost kind of beautiful white noise. It's the beautiful, do you know what I mean? It kind of, illustrates that the um yeah it's like enya sail away yeah yeah yeah it's something chilling out to a minute enya no it's not like that at all

1:17:04oh that's jokes um and i want to go to uh you you're talking about you went to columbia to do ayahuasca i've i've like heard on joe rogan i've heard on lex that people go there and it's like will do it and it's most one of the most transformative um awakening experiences of their life um what was the why here in your soul that made you think right i need to go on this journey into columbia into ayahuasca and like what was that what did that feel like oh you know without getting into it you know there's like childhood trauma and all those sorts of bits and pieces that existed and family shit that everyone's got a version of in some way shape or form and there's that and then there's you know I wasn't I love I love house music and I love DJing but I wasn't always I wasn't only there for that you know I was in there because I was an addict too you know and I was like partying a lot and long and um you know I had to go and just flush shit out and you know i was on the antidepressants and i kind of lost my shit for a couple of years there from about 26 i kind of lost my shit there for a couple of years from like 26 to 28 was it 25 to 28 it was around then um i broke up with an ex-girlfriend and that was it that was when it clicked and then all the other shit came up and it was just all full on and went to a doctor and I was on SSRIs and then it was so bad.

1:18:39I was on like antipsychotics as well. And yeah, I just never really like was able to pull it back. When the gasket popped, I wasn't able to pull it back. And I was just like... When you say put it back, like you weren't able to stop partying, you were constantly... No, I wasn't able to like undo the gasket being popped. You know, you can band it. You're able to band-aid it as you got younger, but the brain eventually gave way. And then that was the new normal that existed. so I was like well I need to try something radical yeah so when you said the new normal existed was your day to day were you just feeling very depressed yeah just shit yeah yeah it's just awful it's hell you know so I've had periods of that if I'm being brutally honest like well yeah I just used to party a lot this podcast kind of pulled me out of that period because I was like I now can go through periods where I just don't drink do you know what I mean but I was I think part of it Jimmy Carter do you know the comedian Jimmy Carter yep Joker obviously he's a comedian makes sense

1:19:40comedian joker but he says he says that you know um purpose is like the biggest antidote to um like addiction or like not i don't think not to addiction but like to alcohol and alcohol and etc and he as soon as he became a comedian and he was working some dead-end corporate job he hated as soon as he became the comedian he could actually drop the booze and then that purpose Filled that void So what What Yeah so you were going around just feeling really low Like what was You said it was hell in your head Me and my wife had gotten together and it was on and off And it was just like fucking hell basically She's like let's go do ayahuasca together This is what year is this?

1:20:2420

1:20:292016 2015 2016 I think and there's one of those ones you know those stories so I think we were on a break at that point in time and she went to she came here and she was staying at Airbnb in Berlin this guy Doug was there and he'd been there you know and it's like okay well this is how it's all meant to happen and play out she's like we're going you know I was like okay sick I'll go 100 % I want to go you need something to get out of that well I want to go I want to try I knew about it I was like, fuck yeah, I'm in. I like to loosen the jeans, to be honest with you. I was like, cool, sounds good.

1:21:11I wasn't going there for a party. Then it was a seven-day retreat. First night was funny because it's come up. I spoke about it last night with a guy who's done it, who came to the dinner. Anyway, first night was San Pedro, which is the cactus, which is mescaline. Then I think you have a night off. and then it was two nights in a row of ayahuasca night off then day one of it and then san pedro at the end so you're like you're copping it sweet like you're absolutely getting hammered what does copping it sweet mean copping it sweet is just like just like you know what does it like can you describe what it feels like so there is definitely a spirit that you drink by having it you feel it come into your mouth you drink it and it tastes like shit it's like it's bad and then you feel these things just enter your body and start wiggling its way around that's why they call it the vine because it starts to move around in your body and everything and then basically um a lot of serotonin is made by the gut so you feel it working in the gut so it's talking to you just having conversations and it's like you're talking to like your mom or your grandma or but they're actually like the person you want to talk to they don't have all the shitty advice so it's just like so you so you're having that you feel it grabbing it grabbing it grabbing these things you just sort of talking to it having these bits and then you were like you were just like this like you're on the floor like you can't move so not can't move but it's like it makes you very heavy and still and then it kind of like grabs you and like moves around and then, but this is my experience anyway, where like you throw up and you shit a lot and it's just the thing that's happening.

1:23:06So let's just say it's, I don't know, your ex-girlfriend broke up with you, right? Whatever it is. You're going through it, you're working through the process and then it just goes, you know, and you just go, oh shit. and you just like get, then you can get up and then you run outside and then you're just launching projectile vomiting or you just do like the best shit you've ever done and then basically you never think about that thing again. I don't know how it works or why that happens, but it grabs it out of your gut and your memory's here or something and then you just launch it out and it's gone.

1:23:45Or you have an understanding of it or a new appreciation for it. The amount of people who've, again, I'm an avid listener of Joe Rogan. They say it's the most transformative thing to get out of depression. Who were you, like, if you feel comfortable going here, if you don't, you don't have to go here, mate. You're in the driving seat. But, like, who were some of the, what were some of those painful things you were having to face in that moment as the hero of that experience? There was just a lot of anger. So when I left, kind of got kicked out of home at 18 and then I didn't speak to my mom. My stepdad was the one I had a bad relationship with but I didn't speak to my mom until I was 25.

1:24:30So I just like brought myself up. From how long? From 18 to 25. I was like, fuck you, I'm out of here. So yeah, I'm out. And I think that's probably the grit and the hustle as well. I was like, I don't have anything to fall back on. I'm going for it and it's either going to be a boom or bust so there's a lot of that and then my mum had me when she was really young she had me when she was 18 so so what the ayahuasca helped me understand was it's just like she could have aborted me right so she took that sacrifice which means that she missed out on stuff on life like she hasn't been able to come here she hasn't been able to do go to America like she hasn't been able to get an education because she chose it for me right so it helped me understand that she when the separation happened and there was an argument with my stepdad that he got aggressive with me and basically started swinging punches i'm like fuck this i'm out of here and then mom had my brother and sister were younger so they're seven and ten i felt like she chose them And I understand why she had to make that decision because she needed to support them just as much as anything.

1:25:46And I was 18. So, I could get a job. I had a license, all those sorts of things. Do I agree with it? Absolutely fucking not. But it helped me get that that's the way that she processed it and she potentially didn't have as much life experience or life skills to be able to handle it in any other way. So, that's what I learned from it. And I'm like, do I forgive you? I don't know, to be honest with you. Do I understand it? Yes. Are you looking to turbocharge your brand? Take it to another level. Save money, save energy, save stress, save time. Well, I've got the perfect thing for you. I am delighted to announce that HC Brands, formerly HC Consulting, my boy Harry Clark has just launched a commercial growth accelerator program designed specifically for challenger food and drink brands.

1:26:41and you can upskill your commercial team they've got so many modules you can hand pick them we can do the full shebang you're going to save hours of research you're going to get the tools to turbocharge your growth get better clarity on your brand's objectives and directions and look harry's worked with some amazing brands holy moly islands savile and rooted drinks he's really helped me with a strategy for hungry yeah if you're looking to turbocharge your brand link in the show notes and you're going to be able to do that easy peasy lemon squeezy understand it it's wild the amount of clarity that is um i'm into almost i meditate like a lot um considering i'm like pretty hyper i actually meditate a lot it's kind of to but i really believe um the answer for all like a lot of things is within us and it's just about about finding it and i think what you've said there about the understanding versus forgiveness and those kind of those two things are kind of the anesthetist sorry the sorry the antidote to kind of that anger but then this anger from 18 to 25 is like you know what we're talking about you need grit well fuck me there it is son like 18 to 25 so you you walk out the house go to my grandma's melbourne just out i was in we're living i grew up in my um old in my high school years in in the country so my nan lived down the road um so I went there I was like fuck I've never gone back there and um what did you do for those seven years I started I was well I'd literally just finished school I just finished year 12 um it was like December or January or something so I'd gotten accepted into uni um to do physiotherapy and uh got good grades you know I didn't really try that hard I just was you know kind of had that thing you know still autism out with that and just kind of fuck around and figure it out and so good so so that was okay um so you're pretty clever at school yeah but I was always getting in trouble as well because I was bored because I'm like I get this fucking boring I'm out of here you know it's the stringency that's how I can work for someone as well i have to have a business so i couldn't do it um and uh went there and then um started and then i met this guy at uni only lasted six months because i was going out and having fun and i always loved music and they had turntables at their house they were like some private school guys are like you know real rich kids and uh i just learned to mix and just loved it and i started getting gigs and then i just became a dj i worked at a phone shop for two or three years just to like get by and pay rent and everything and then i was like djing on the weekends and then eventually just i was doing enough that i just went and did it full time so i was doing like 10 or 12 gigs a weekend so it was like there's plenty of money around so 10 or 12 weekend yeah so what would you do so what was your weekend like as in as not like in terms of the partying but like as in what you do a set from so you start 10 on a thursday and finish at five on a thursday and do that thursday friday saturday sunday i had the last set in melbourne there's a longer day party now all day in melbourne um on mondays but i was i was doing the last set in melbourne probably for four or five years which started at 7am on a monday morning and went to about nine or ten yeah fucking hell and i'd been there the whole night it wasn't it wasn't like i woke up and went in yeah yeah yeah have your cocoa pops before you walk through the door but um so then how did you what made you rekindle things with your mum um a bit of persuasion from my missus um some ayahuasca um yeah it was just it was just some of those things it's actually a little bit how you're on at the moment as we would say in australia which is it which is a bit like how are you going yeah it's just like you said like you could say um if something was like let's say the car's a bit of a bomb right like it's not a good car it's like a shit car you're like oh that car's a bit how you going you know yeah yeah or something's playing up like um not working well you're like oh it's a bit how's it you know i'll be saying that when i'm next goes to the meeting there you go that's a bit how's it you know so um anyway uh yeah relationships a little bit torn again at the moment but that's been a different thing from becoming a parent and you know um she lives she She lives a long way away and she looks after my grandma as well.

1:31:25But there's been some weird stuff going on with my wife and her. Just family fucking shit, dude. This is why I like doing these conversations is because people will see the – they'll see non, they'll see this at the bars in Tokyo and L.A. and New York and now London. But ultimately there's a human story behind all of this. I'm grateful for you being so open, mate. I think it will help a lot of people. You know what we said? I kind of get pulled towards the crazies. When I do these supper clubs with these founders, I'm going to meet a couple of the guys from local. Have you been to the Devonshire?

1:32:13Yeah, we had lunch yesterday. Ocean is the guy who owns it. Oh, right. who's he's you know i can't pronounce his fucking name yeah he's the guy i'm interviewing monday um tell him putting on it please yeah yeah i'll just walk up but yeah that's a sick boozer i mean like that isn't like what's a boozer yeah um but uh is is i'm drawn to the people and because there is within all this kind of beauty is i think what a lot of founders do is they take some form of um uh pain robert you know robert green 48 laws of power he says that the bigger the shadow the greater the creative force and i love that and i think every founder i meet has some kind of just something that's gone wrong or something but then but also a lot of passion it's not just all like oh morbid fucking out you know there's a lot of passion in this but then you create these beautiful things and i think this is exactly what you're you're doing with non um let's talk specifically about the uk what is the the game plan are you trying to get into retail like bar like how's it going to work how does non become a huge brand over here the the top one percent depending on how you value the top one percent um is the key would you be my top one percent of restaurants of restaurants and retail so you know that's that can be from the library to the fat dark to i would say the top cuvees you know that brett Graham?

1:33:42Who? The Lebrey, the guy who does the Lebrey. No, I haven't met him. I met Jan, the sommelier, and then Matt Stone's a really important chef in Australia. He's old Sue in Australia. He's here at the Lebrey, Harry. So that's how I got the connection and actually a meeting with them. Right. So, you know, that goes from there to the Lebrey to somewhere that's got exceptional food but he's a bit more casual like coal and and equally as important as top cuvee as well so i call it the the new hot girl at school principal um you're only you're only the new hot girl for so long um and uh you know a little bit everyone's like oh actually yeah you know you know so it's kind of like that so that's that's how we're going to do so that's how we'll do it and that's what we're doing in the US and that takes I think that takes around a year I reckon you stay there around a year to 18 months the beauty of being well funded and I was talking about this last night is that you can go a little bit slower but right you know you don't have to get volume from a place that may not be as desirable as you potentially want.

1:35:11How much money – I don't have to answer this, but how much money have you got behind you guys? Enough. Enough.

1:35:27And also, like, it's not heaps though, you know. I can't do everything that I want to do. and we're expensive I don't think we're expensive it costs a lot of money to make but we will be viewed as expensive in you know you're always gonna you need to at some point crack grocery grocery being your waitress etc right but you need to build the brand first so that it works. Well, so it works because if you go in and you go out, it's all over. If you want to exit, that is the worst thing you can do. And that's the same thing as going into a country as well. You can't go, they're going to come through and do their due diligence and go, yeah, great, great, great.

1:36:25Oh, sweet. Well, you fucked up Vietnam. Well, there's 300 million people there. But the price just went down. You don't want that to happen either.

1:36:36And it's expensive. It is expensive to play with those guys and operate with those guys. So if you can get as much moving organically and pulling off the shelves itself, because it's now at a point in Australia where we're like, guys. Are you in retail in Australia? Well, I'm in Dan Murphy's. yeah so what does the because one thing i'm fascinated with is i've interviewed there's definitely melbourne is melbourne melbourne is very similar to i think kind of east london and short i've interviewed a few um my one of my friends mark palmer who did green and blacks he actually lives in melbourne now melbourne what am i saying melbourne i told you i can't fucking c-3po um um but he there's definitely a challenger brand mindset you've got aesop the things who gives a crap yeah simon i interviewed him he's based over there there's definitely a challenger mindset in melbourne melbourne melbourne whatever Melbourne yeah um and uh I would love to understand what what the what the Australian market looks like I know you've got well obviously here we've got kind of as you say the top one percent the restaurants you've got the top probably the top one percent your Harrods, Selfridges, Harvey Nicks yeah you've then got your your grocery how does it how does it work because Mark was saying to me that it's actually probably easier for British brands to launch in australia um versus other places one because we have way we have very similar banter like the colloquialisms in between both countries yes um yeah so paint the picture for me um okay so for a british brand um i suppose i've met i've met with a couple of uh people in uh low and no space founders um one being me from betebo uh we went out on wednesday night and uh i was with the quarter boys um so fabian and uh shit i'm not on the podcast i've forgotten the other bloke's name fuck anyway um i was with the quarter boys in the morning um yeah thank you um and And I was like, as a British brand, I'm like, because we're looking at the value chains here of our product, it's really good for us because it's double the Australian.

1:39:04How so? Well, what it costs. Okay, so 20 quid here is 40 Australian dollars, the retail price. Going to Australia is half. so those guys want to ship here and let's say I don't want to give away anything that I know but let's I theoretically say that a bottle of something in drinks is 15 quid list price or that's what they sell to a restaurant or a Harrods to or whatever it is right without shipping that in Australia is$30 into the distributor that's bought the stock. That's without adding any additional margin for the retailers or for the restaurants or any of that sort of stuff. So I think it's actually quite difficult.

1:40:02I don't know. I'm actually really intrigued because I want to help these guys as well get to Australia. They want to go to Australia. Yeah, but I'm just like, oh, man, you might, I don't know, you're going to have to like do it at cost plus or something. Like, I don't know how you're going to figure this out, but I'm actually intrigued. Do you know Dashwater? Yes. So they've actually got a manufacturer there. That's how they're making it work. Yeah, that's shipped everywhere. They've got a really good distributor as well. Their distributor is the guys who owns Remedy Kombucha, which is here too.

1:40:32Didi? I don't know if I've met the guys. His name is Didi. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm interviewing him next week. It's like the week of the Aussies. Okay. because he because he launched Soul Fresh as well yes he is the right guy no Soul Fresh is a different distribution business so Remedies I was getting excited there no but they're really good I think they've just I think they've got Liquid Death in Australia they just got it they do yeah yeah yeah because I've just been through that I was flicking through their yeah flicking I was virtually flicking through their catalogue so okay back to the Australian landscape so premium and luxury retail is basically gone.

1:41:16So there is no Selfridges Harrods. Why? Myer's just been struggling for years and so has David Jones and there was only two really. So funny how David Jones is like a premium retailer. It sounds like a plumber over here. Do you know what I mean? Dave Jones plumbing electricity. Yeah, look, I had a meeting with the F &B manager at Harrods the other day. I'm just like... This is the... Yeah. This is the... Yeah. Yeah, this is different. This is luxury retail. But Barney's, I don't think, exists in New York anymore, and that was awesome. It's different. Nordstrom struggling, I'm pretty sure, as well.

1:41:53Those places, they're not... They're not where they were. I think this is the only country that's still really working. But again, I don't know how well they're doing. But anyway, so in that luxury retail space, it's hard. The independent food space is probably pretty good and really interesting. So, you know, you've got some of the stuff that I saw down here that the big fish guys have done downstairs are in there and really great brands and, yeah, you know, there's really quality produce and quality. People in Australia are willing to spend money on food products and good products with good story.

1:42:36the problem is it's not a problem it's just what we have is that it's a duopoly so there's Coles with West Farmers and then there's Woolworths Are you in any of those yet or not? We just said no to Woolworths actually Because? We didn't think the brand was ready we thought there was probably too much cannibalisation in the independent on and off trade so we've got a half bottle coming out in Australia well the container of glass is just about to get like land on shore on the next week and then start going in but I'm making exclusive for hotel rooms only because the big opportunity is hotel minibar I love it's a great what you said about we can go slower but go the right way yeah and I love that it's having the cojones to not to actually say no to retailer yeah it's not going to work for you it's not going to work for me and I've only got one shot with you and you will admit that so let's just call a spade a spade here and like let's get it right and let us go do a bit more work it's a great deal of the product we'll be in touch when we're ready and let's do this properly don't give me 115 stores i want all 800 of them because i can go get i can go get 115 hotel rooms and i've got more points of distribution than what you're offering me right now yeah and i'm meeting my ideal customer in a premium hotel at their point and destination that isn't looking at the price to getting what looks yummy in the fridge and we can win there yeah yeah yeah yeah and i love it's yeah it's it's great i think people who listen to this is but then the other the other side of that is when you've if there's say a founder who hasn't got loads of dough behind them that it could be sometimes you've got to just say yes to that listing it's an interesting thing there's a balance of risk and reward and spreading yourself thin and remaining focused and when to put yourself in the shit and when to try to get out of it.

1:44:32And I will do it where I'm just like, fuck yeah, let's go. And I'll just like go and create all this mess and everyone's got to come in behind me and clean it up in the team. It's like, fuck you. The wake of Aaron. Yeah. What's the difference in mindset between an Australian from Melbourne and an Australian from Sydney? Describe that. How can I be diplomatic? We're very different.

1:44:59it's just totally it's just totally different it's it's chalk and cheese to be honest with you but i'm trying to get into like i don't think we have anyone there in a minute how many australian listeners you got exactly that's what i'm saying mate so like i'm gonna put it on linkedin unless you're gonna fucking put it all in and i have sydney people so not doing it um i love people from sydney they're fantastic okay so case in point so uh sasha from warehouse um we talk about north the north being more fun and the south being more prosperous but more kind of well you know up their ass um and i opened i was doing opening conversations the podcast was like hello people got a sash from the podcast he's got a brand new book so i went to a good school i've got a silver spoon up my ass i mean i got very lucky but i was like um he's got a new book out called tales from the dance floor and he was like he's like fucking wait there pal sales from the dance floor dance floor i was like oh sorry mate but it is there's definitely is it similar to that so sydney's so sydney's got the sort of you know juice tonic um health and wellness, very rich affluent families live there.

1:46:19They know they're rich. They'll tell you they're rich. So let's say that's South London by the sounds of things, right? Queensland and Brisbane up higher is just a bunch of just, you know, there's legends. Why are they so upstate? Oh, they're just like, 4X beer, I don't know if you know that, the gold one they're called bangos and they're just smashing bangos all day they're like a mid-strength and they just drink shit loads of piss they're just like bogans they you know i don't really give a fuck they'll wear like board shorts out to dinner you know like and then melbourne's really similar to melbourne's really similar to east london and yes maybe some of the grittiness of manchester from what i've seen and then melbourne's melbourne and new york are chalk and cheese, Sydney and LA are chalk and cheese.

1:47:11What do you mean chalk and cheese? Like, oh, not chalk and cheese. I got that saying wrong. So Melbourne and New York are basically the same. Okay, LA. LA and Sydney are basically the same and the same people. San Fran and Melbourne are pretty much the same. And then Melbourne and London is pretty much the same. So it's pretty easy. and for us, it's for us, a head office being in Melbourne as well. We're finding that the cities that have what's honestly, there's a bloke I really, really dislike and I bumped into him at cafe and got stuck in a conversation with him. But he said, one of the most interesting things I've ever said is that the people that live in cities that have a cold and a hot or warm and cold and have the undulation, like which is obviously quite natural, they're way more balanced and easier to deal with than people that just live in the sun all the time.

1:48:09They're all just a bit crazy and a little bit. How are you going? Nate, so Manchester, the weather is morbidly bleak at the best of times. It's just, I love it. I went to uni there. Stone Roses, Happy Mondays, Oasis, Joy Division, like the amount of music that blossomed out of that city in that time, the hacienda all this was everything i was talking about with sasha and i've seen 24 hour party people yeah yeah yeah mondays yeah yeah yeah you know that hallelujah song hallelujah by happy mondays the remix one i'll send you that after this man what's up to you sick okay um that actually that's another one of that was my brain but um i'm a huge oasis fan oh my favorite band yeah they're just i was walking around i was like i wonder i was i nearly googled where liam gallagher lives and i was like maybe i can just like walk around that block and maybe i was seeing him somewhere mate they're based up in i think there he's in north london like high gateway um not that i'd not you know hang out all the time mate and i can't look having a coffee with him yesterday mate but uh he we'll wrap this up a sec because i know you've got a dart but um he so so i was thinking i've always asked this like what is it about and john hegarty who's the big creative he's got it started searching sachi you know the massive advertising agency he i read his book which is like a short book on creativity which is you know short you can read it whilst you're on the shitter basically but he he he says if you want to get creative go to cities where the where the weather is bad and i was like i don't know why but there's something about the bad weather that forces us inwards to be creative um i wonder if it's because you're like you got like this you know what i mean like you're not open and like yes it's like you're not like opening on the sun you know vitamin d you're like you're like fuck it's cold and you're like you know mate is that it that forces you inward and that i yeah is it a body thing because obviously so much so many things are physiological yeah are there other brands that are in uh what other founders are sick in australia that i could speak to do you think is there like because there's a massive community of challenge food drink brands in london and well the uk it's like really tight is it the same in in oz yeah there's There's some cool shit going on there.

1:50:25I'll flick them your way. Really good port of call is Heaps Normal. It's not obvious. They're number one in Australia. They're fucking huge. They're coming here, actually, so that's perfect. So I'll introduce you to Andy, who's really cool, really good guy. They've just done a collab with Who Gives a Crap. Oh, sick. I did a beer and toilet paper. Fucking sick. You know what I mean? That's sick. So Heaps Normal, I highly recommend. I'll think of some more as I was saying earlier this is my last day of 16 hour days in a row so I'm surprised I actually any bit coherent for this we'll wrap it up here because you've got to get across to the other side of London I really appreciate you doing this likewise thanks for having me man I really appreciate the platform and what you're doing and uh yeah anyone can help with people that you want to talk to and yeah just let me know let's let's be friends please nice one bro thanks buddy thank you so so much for listening to the podcast i really really do appreciate it if you like that episode only if you liked it please do give it five stars subscribe tell all your friends families foes next door but one cat dog whatever please tell everyone about this podcast it means the world to me and i really want to understand what your pain points are as the new wave of challenger food and drink brands please do hit me up on linkedin search dan pope and hopefully we can together create a more meaningful and powerful podcast for the next wave of challenger food and drink brands thank you so much