Ben Branson (Pt. 1) Seedlip Founder and Pioneer of No & Low Movement Interviews Me: How I Built the HUNGRY. Podcast Into My Full Time Job From My Bedroom, Landing Big Guests, Polite Persistence

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2:01morning uh hope you are wonderful um this episode is super special so last november i was at uh a swanky hotel in just off soho at ben branson's uh launch event for his new brand season um i was stuffing my face with champagne and scoffing back the champers and ben said to me look mate why don't I interview you on a podcast I was like oh that's a bit awkward um he's like no no it'll be sick like people can understand behind the scenes how you built it um and then so what ensued was basically a five-hour podcast so um Ben interviewed me for about two hours then I interviewed Ben for another two and a half hours um it was five hours it was intense it was beautiful it was profound it was glorious I absolutely loved every minute of it very cathartic as well and um yes i suppose this is part one this is out on monday so today and part two when i interview ben is out on wednesday so double whammy this week we kind of go into like how i how i built hungry like how i got it going from my kind of bedroom on skype to getting big guests like julian metcalf my cold email techniques because i've got a bit of a foible with writing cold emails it's one of my weird maniacal obsessions um we go into car crash interviews how I've scaled it, all that jazz why I'm driven to do this so yeah, if you've ever listened to the podcast and thinking like what makes Dan do this every week then hopefully you'll really enjoy this and as always, please, I'd be so, so grateful if you could just share it, literally ping it everywhere and anywhere it all really helps the hungry cause anyway, hope you enjoy this

3:43back to back mega pod like a marathon yeah yeah i feel like we're kind of maybe djing in ibiza um without any of the the kind of the lights and stuff but um ben is going to interview me or chat to me first ask me questions and then we're going to talk all things um seed lip season your podcast full shebang so yeah it's quite weird being the other side yeah it's quite nice being the other side actually getting to getting to chat to you so I'm a massive fan of what you do Dan and I think what I, we were just chatting beforehand and about the trials and the tribulations of running a podcast as you do and doing it yourself and just being fucking prolific and making it happen and as you said to me you know it's not about it being perfect it's about getting things out there for people to listen to maybe we just start with why you wanted to start the podcast yeah really it was a good question I've never been asked that this is why we're doing this yes yeah yeah so why I started it so if I if I actually go back four years five years before the podcast I realized I was podcasting way, way, way before I even started a podcast.

5:10There wasn't a microphone. Okay. So, curiosity is basically what it is. So, with food and drink, when I was at Mani Life, I would, every day, I still do it now, I wake up and I read militantly on that. I write militantly on that. And I would always try and meet two new people a week. Okay. And download their wisdom. I would just always do that. It was not like a, oh, this is going to be a podcast, right? So that was the first thing. It was always about following my curiosity. And it just happened. But where does that curiosity come from? I think I've always been wanting to sort of just see what's behind the door or the curtain.

5:57That's the best way of saying it. It's always just wanted to see how things are slightly different. Do you know what I mean? how as we were talking about before like before we hit record like curiosity and curriculum aren't the same same thing so at school you're taught to you know you have a wide palette of different things to try from business studies biology math blah blah blah blah and the thing they get right is to narrow you yeah narrow you down into art or music whatever but the bit that think they get wrong is the is the curriculum like okay you're going to do business these are the business books you have to read and then we're going to mark you on it and you're going to regurgitate it i remember being at school and uni just sort of thinking like hang on a sec why the fuck are we doing that like why i was sat in the lecture because why are we why is that the way this is meant to be like and and i always felt like i had this insatiable curiosity um which was imprisoned by the curriculum system yep and that way of doing things so then as soon as I left university left uni I was like okay amazing so I can just kind of I can follow that curiosity but were you a good student at school um I so I was always predicted bad grades okay always predicted um like always always felt like the underdog in everything and i think the first kind of um example of that was was a bit of a porker at school i've always struggled i love food mate i love food so much um and and i wasn't i remember it was like i was 13 so leave the final year of uh prep school yep and i wasn't good enough to do athletics and i wasn't good enough to do cricket so they were like oh there's nothing for you to really really do so i was like okay well that's that's a bit weird so i just started running religiously running and so say say people would around the the 400 meter track yeah say people would do like three i'll do an extra four laps just kept running and running and running i was like i had this it was a that was the first chip I've got a lot of chips on my shoulder, a lot of insecurities.

8:12But this was the sort of first one I think sets to see nicely. And so I just kept running and running and running and running, lost loads of weight. And then I'd never run before ever. What did that running do for you, though? What, like? Well, so then I got, I broke all the school records. Brilliant. Yeah, and then I became really good at cross country. Brilliant. So what that taught me was, and this goes, this links to the podcast, is one i'm not listening to whatever the authority tell me what to do is the first thing two i'll follow my own curiosity and my own way of whether that's training or learning like there's i just kind of thinking why why are we looking at like this surely there's a different and as i say it's like peeling behind the curtain or looking at it from a just an oblique um maybe kind of ancillary angle um so it's sort of the combination of those two things early of what kind of laid the bed to start the podcast if that makes sense so effectively school said to you you can't do this yeah and you kind of said fuck you sorry we both swear quite a bit yeah uh fuck you i'm gonna do this exactly um and i think and it worked and it worked right you you lost weight i presume felt better about yourself yeah and then smashed loads of records yeah so that was the first point win win win win yeah but it's the first time i was like well if i just take things into my own hands yeah then i'm in the driving seat when i got to going to university um they predicted me uh shit grades and i don't know i mean it's hilarious now what did you study i did history english and um business studies at a level at a level yeah okay anyway so they they predicted me shit grades.

10:06Yep. They're like, oh, you can't go into a Russell Group University, mate. And you know, at the time, everyone's wanking over Russell Group University. Yes. You just get into a Russell Group University. Yes. So I ended up going to Bournemouth. Okay. Because, sorry, got really good A-levels. Again, another thing of doubt me, watch this kind of thing. Okay. And so got good A-levels, but then still decided to go to Bournemouth because it looked like a party, basically. Yeah. To study? To study business. Okay. didn't really sort of think about it went to bournemouth and then was partying like way too much and ended up dropping out and because i was like this is just this is a car crash this is a car crash it's like i remember being in a in a um lecture theater i don't know what this but some bloke behind me was like yo miss yeah like it was like something out of like people just do nothing like i was like how to say i've worked my bollocks off like surely i can do better than this um so anyway left end up going back went back home working in a pub and applied was trying to find a rustle group uni which i mean looking retrospectively it was all just superfluous where you get go to uni but at the time you're like this is really important yep and um went end up going to manchester which was even more kind of crazy yeah um but that was super fun but it's always been to study um entrepreneurship uh sustainability and um entrepreneurship sustainability nothing that was it but but there there was this one lecture lecturer and he actually changed my life right so shout him out shout him out i've forgotten his name but he was he was absolute cheap he was basically it was it was a bit like david brent meets lecture theater right so he comes in it's like he goes it was one of those sort of more module kind of places and um it's like the day of brand like get out if you don't want a beer get out yeah he was like this we're gonna we're gonna crack the whip here and he was like why are you doing it why would you go and do a corporate job why would and he was it was a degree about philosophy entrepreneurship and yeah sorry philosophy and entrepreneurship okay and i was like wow like that's that got my curiosity going like wildfire so all the other lectures i'm reading books about like how to do accounts sure sure do you know what i mean and i had to re-sit that because i was just don't i just if it's numbers i'm not doing it but this guy we're reading books like tom wolf bonfire vanities um uh zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance um oh my god what's that book by uh the unbearable likeness of being all these crazy philosophical books and then the guy was like pulling it into entrepreneurship yeah wonderful so that was that was kind of how the podcast the curiosity curiosity came around from being told you're not good enough yeah think is where it came from so so uh because it strikes me that you know lots of the people lots of the amazing people that you've had on the podcast and from the outside it seems like a big theme it seems like a big theme is is this challenger kind of brands or challenger mentality entrepreneurship obviously goes along with that uh and yeah it's sort of it makes sense that that's what you're attracted to because that's part of you and part of who you are and where you've come from that they're the kind of people you want to chat and meet and go for coffee with and then start a podcast but take me back to the you're having coffees two a week meeting meeting interesting people where does the decision to then start recording those conversations come in so again probably to set the scene go back a few steps so was always writing on linkedin Was always writing.

14:15I've got like a very militant day, which is read kind of OCD, 35 minutes, write, 57 minutes. It's a weird kind of OCD of mine. But every single day without fail. And then was writing these... You don't have kids. No, no, no, no, no. I don't have kids. And that was more for my learnings at Manny Life. And I don't know, I just find it truly joyful. and what's the difference to you between what's the difference in benefit or impact between reading versus writing they're two sides of the same coin okay so i believe the way i sort of see it is the curiosity turns the engine on the writing directs where the car's going do you mean you need the two to tango so curiosity proceeds it's a virtuous circle right yep but i think the the reading is kind of just gets me in the mode to do it and if you're reading something great like there's a moment i think awe is one of my fascinations like the sublime and the awe and i'm reading truman capote's um in cold blood okay which is sick um which is all about like a murder that happened in whenever but um there's a line like sometimes i'll read a line i'll read with a pen and i'll be like i'm trying to think of the line he talked about the snow being like sheep hip high sheep slaughteringly high snow and you that that image of just like okay there's the snow's not just high it's sheep slaughteringly high yeah so i that is a moment of awe and also because i write so much i know the toil the writer's gone through to create there'll be five other scenarios that he could have put there but he's put that yep so anyway so just reading something like that really gets my brain going and then when you go to write it's almost like the reading's the training it's the reps in the gym the writing's the right let's have it and what are you writing about so about challenge brands okay yeah so so um all podcast questions yeah so um um sometimes like journaling so it could be writing about tough negotiation okay this is this is the curriculum that's presented to me what's the ways around it and are you typing or are you handwriting typing typing yeah techno full volume it's quite a maniacal morning um and i don't know i just think it's it's a way of um like this sounds really like philosophically wanky for a wednesday morning but if it's like more of like a way of being doing those things and i think it just allows you to see things um differently and i think it so so anyways to go back to your question I as you probably know I like to zigzag it's okay so that that kind of curiosity was always there through writing and I was publishing loads on LinkedIn and actually it'll be your friend David Gluckman right who for listeners is amazing but he's uh slammed his lip no he hates me but he i was it was during lockdown and he'd found my writing and he's got that book that that shit will never sell and he was like oh should we have a call and i was like yeah we've got nothing else to do so i was like fuck it let's have a call and then I was like that would be amazing if I recorded that so I basically went back to him I was like hey mate like well I didn't say mate I said hello David dear David would you like to do a podcast I had no idea what it was on it was on Skype it was I was absolutely but this was lockdown had to be remote obviously yeah not as much well loads going on in the world but not as much going on yeah because we're sort of we're in our four walls um and so that made it really easy to do things it was kind of yeah let's let's let's do I remember vividly like getting a coffee just be like this is so so scary didn't even put on Spotify didn't even put on Apple didn't even put it on just put it on YouTube and just put it on LinkedIn and said I've tried this thing and that's why one of my values is prolific not perfect because i think perfect shackles you from prolific whereas always just moving at speed and ready fire aim of like all right this isn't ready it's shit but i'm going to ship it anyway unleash it to the world and when you're unleashing us a little bit um scraggly or squirrely is one it massively reduces expectations with the audience because it can only go up yes two you build momentum if you keep doing it um and three it just i think we we have this element and i still have this now of being so scared of putting ourselves out there which i was terrified yeah i was like well if i put my best self out there then i've got to keep hitting that but if i put the shittest version then it can only get better aim low yeah but then be prolific and just keep trying to get better yep um and that was kind of how it started we put the first one out i think we got 50 views i mean and that was probably all my mates to be to be honest 50 times yeah yeah yeah just it's still there and it's um but i i loved it what did you love about it i loved when it's live or when it's recorded and i know you've got podcasts as well it's perfect speak to you but i think you can access a gear of brain power and curiosity that is beyond gear five and six and something happens when you just when that when i press that button there or once you'll know this right yeah is your brain starts moving and again back to this kind of thinking further out like that's addictive but there's no two i've got very addictive personality that is super addictive like trying to you're learning live and you're but it's very rare to it's very rare or to me it's it's very rare to just sit down you know i got three kids right and loads of dogs and it's chaos at home and so it's very rare that my wife and I get to finish conversation and it feels like you know and we're experiencing this you know right now where I'm just listening to you then I'm suddenly like oh this is so nice actually because we're just having a long conversation and it's not a meeting and it's not would you like to buy this it's not what are the actions it's not what's the agenda you know and you kind of i'm sort of like oh i just think about though you get moments like these that are actually quite rare where you're just having a chat um yeah so i can i can see exactly what you mean by it's it's a sort of different zone and a slightly different headspace i also think because you don't check your phone for two hours you know i said it oh it's like finding gear five or six maybe it's not maybe it's just that gear is always there it's just you're in gear two because you're so preoccupied with actions checking instagram you know i'm a linkedin fiend you know get the dopey off that it's like to do list boom boom boom whereas this it's and that's why i like to go really long with the podcasts um it's because how long was your first how long was your your first for you first one the first one was atrocious atrocious i actually interviewed david again because i was like just and that went really well 30 minutes okay and i was i was just thinking as i was doing the conversation i was like this is shit you're shit why are you bothering doing this um no one's gonna like this you're waffling your words um it's i in fact it was probably the first maybe 20 25 episodes where that voice was just there uh it's just like this is awful the guest thinks you know because i remember interviewing charlie biggum right and um perry my friend and they now sponsor the podcast actually big fish had introduced me to him and i was in my flat i was living in london i was living in fulham and I was so nervous.

23:13I'm not even, this isn't, this is just God's honest truth. I reckon I smoked about 16 fags, pacing up and down my kitchen film going, I'm a piece of shit. Who's he to speak to me? And just, you know, and I was like, this is just awful. This is awful. It's not going well at all, but then you've got to get that rep and just put it out there and ship your work because then you start to build the muscle build the yeah it's a muscle of just keep doing the rep and the rest will fall into place and so why why did you then yeah why did you or let me start again how did you then keep going of like okay I've done one I've done one i'm gonna do another like what talk me through that sort of thinking of like did you were you suddenly like oh my god i'm i'm gonna do a podcast and we're gonna do this and this is gonna be amazing or did you just think shit well that was quite i quite enjoyed that not no idea if anyone else did hey maybe i should do it again yeah it's a really good point actually it's i loved doing it that was the main thing yep and it it basically meant instead of having to go for coffee having to have no excuse like if i if i hadn't done the podcast it would be very hard to speak to you for an hour when we chatted last time right yep but because you've got a podcast and you've got a passport to speak to access the most some of the most interesting people in the world so instead of having coffees in around here whatever i could go it was a passport to the top is essentially I saw it I was like okay this is sick so and it's a win it's a win-win right you get to meet people you want to talk to and have conversations with and it just so happens that they're being recorded and they're free for everyone else to listen to I mean like that sounds like a real win-win for you yeah yeah it's a complete win-win and I think um and also I genuinely believe you can learn you learn something from everyone like no matter your big small you know a cab driver you'll meet on the street someone like who works in wherever like you learn something from everyone and the piece of wisdom came from episode two that I have on like a I do a talk about the podcast every all the learnings I do a talk and we've done interviews some amazing well I've interviewed some amazing people but there's a guest who was episode number two that no one would have heard of wasn't really in food and drink called Alistair Herbert and he's got a business all about language and how to use language to he combines AI with language to help brands kind of create emotional hooks super interesting guy but this was like before the whole AI you know I mean the irony of AI and emotion it's hilarious yeah it's great it's it's hugely ironic but he's he's a voracious reader as well and he um he taught me his thing and he's got this like super quirky guy he was like he was in lockdown so he was having beers and he's you'd hear the seagulls in brighton just like loads of books by and i was like this is amazing and he he was like there's three types of language and i talk about this all the time now there's um i don't want to butcher this now there's uh factual language sensory language and picture language okay so brands obsess with factual language because that goes for the head uh corporate response social responsibility very hard to digest language um um corporate social responsibility uh in in drink in food and drink sort of uh triple distilled yeah yeah claims prebiotic probiotic um hyalaic peanuts is when we used um in some respects almost seed to bar chocolate like it's it's good language but brands obsessed with it because they think oh my god it makes us seem more haughty and better than we are yep there's that type of language second type of language is sensory language which is kind of moving from head to heart is more like uh really delicious ultra tasty chocolate fruit yep things adjectives adjectives essentially then there's picture language and picture language is what sets is is basically what goes in like is a hook into here so you know the one i always use is like um delicious delicious chocolate will send your taste buds gallivanting around a different gastronomic galaxy like it just i mean it's a bit it's fucking chocolate it's polishing a turd right like you get what i mean it's a mouthful it's a mouthful literally he he taught me that that episode's probably got 20 downloads but i was like okay well this doesn't matter because i'm i'm winning because and i still use that i use that in presentation decks and everyone's like that slide was the one and that came from a guest that probably most people won't listen no do you know what i mean and that that gave me the thing is like you'll learn from anyone hey guys thank you so much for watching this video honestly means the absolute world to me um i'd be so grateful for a small favor please it is so hard on the youtube channel it's so bloody hard um if you please enjoy these videos just click the subscribe button um more subscribers equals bigger guests bigger guests equals better conversations and hopefully you can learn more as you build your food drink brand thank you so so much yes and i i definitely subscribe to that uh as we've you know we were just sort of discussing before i was observing more like because i wasn't doing anything to help we got like plugs and phones and microphones and everything's got to work and everything's got to switch on like just give me some of the behind the scenes like let's lift the curtain on on actually like making a podcast uh from yeah give me some of the the horror stories on oh god so the trials and tribulations of it yeah so i think the first one which i was kind of to tell you about before we hit record is i was really insecure that i didn't have the right kit you know i felt a bit like at school i was like mommy why why haven't i got the best cricket bat i spoil a little brat right give me the best cricket bat i've allowed some shitty cricket bat going out to play cricket whatever but um and so i was like right i'm gonna rent all this kit i want it to be a banging podcast so i knew a guy through wealth who's um who'd done loads of videos for island's chocolate chocolate brand a bit work with and i was recording with wilf had that exact recorder and i was like right this is this is the moment um this is my moment big time yeah yeah yeah yeah um anyway it was was lugging around these 4k cameras which are about the size well you use them right they're the size of basketballs three of them and i was in wilf's kitchen and i spent i generally spent maybe an hour and a half setting them up yeah yeah yeah get the angles right as a mate you know i need you need your angle you've got a good good jawline and um turned it on well no in fact i didn't turn it on so i did the full 40 full hour podcast and i looked at him i was like mate hasn't recorded and i was just like this is just awful this is so so bad i think um yeah get the kit the kit is always is always the nightmare there i've had a few instances where i mean we had i can't say the guests because i'll piss them off but like the other week we had a really big guest that just didn't record the video and i'm sat in this office thinking you're fucking joking me what do you mean they didn't come no no hasn't it just it just did the video didn't record yeah but let me just check that whilst

31:30um so that so there's that there's there's instances where and again I won't say the guest but when you're starting out is you've got no like there's no I'm not saying I've got gravitas now in the podcast but you know you're you're kind of I wasn't a founder I wasn't I you know I so I always felt insecure about that um I wasn't all I knew all I was doing was following my curiosity i was like i like to talk i like to communicate and i like learning but i always felt and even only when i went full time with it now i'm trying to find it with um like build a media company and like potential like an investment um kind of portfolio as as well um that kind of has began to sort of temper and dissipate you are a founder yeah well Yeah, exactly.

32:24You are. But before that, I wasn't. So I was just a wholesale manager who had a chip on my shoulder. So I remember once, I can't say who it was, I'll tell you afterwards, but I was so nervous for the first, as I said, 20 to 30. But nervous about what? Nervous about, is this going to be good? Okay. Will this person respect me? will this person like me which is which is you'll go insane doing that which is i've now kind of got rid of that one um am i eating up too much of their time um will we have anything to talk about will we have anything to talk about uh anyway so i was in that same flat and for them uh i was probably on a vape this time to chill me out and the guy rocked up on his phone and was like walking around the house a bit like it was facetime and i was like i sort of i sort of was like mate like is this for real like i'm looking back i should have just said you're clearly busy this is clearly not of interest to you um let's park it here and we'll we'll come back to that so wait he was on a call no he was in his pajamas like it was like he was like you just literally rolled out of bed okay ah doing the recording doing the recording walking around the house on his phone i was like mate like you're not looking at me you're not okay like yeah kind of respected me i was like i've put a lot of effort into this yep um and i so i think that's been a big learning is is getting over that fear i think i've had a one again i'll tell all these people afterwards asking the questions it was on zoom and so you're interviewing me yeah so i'll ask he'd ask the question you'd ask me the question and he would go like this and i was like your your your kind of anger and frustrations bubbling like i was like mate what that seriously um but but it but it ended up being fine um so i think there's a lot a lot of those things that people don't really see what's the longest it's taken to get a guest on question so i'll tell you what i'm who i'm trying like for life or money yeah and i don't know if you know them this would make my day let's try so i have been sending the founders of the shoom cavy and shamil i reckon 40 emails i've sent them gifts i've sent them everything what gifts like i've sent them like a chocolate hamper i've sent them uh everything i've like literally sent them everything um well not everything i've sent them fucking chocolate but and then i'm like look you've got a new restaurant i'll come down to brighton let's do this i can be there um but they're super busy but i will like do they do podcast interviews not really okay so that's they do much press they don't really not really so they're you know beg still borrow so why do you want them on the podcast because i can't get it is but no that's right because they've got amazing business but like but there's a part of me it's like you want to i know you want to do this and I've gone through the...

35:51Before he emails tells you they don't. No, no, no. But no, but as like, he just replies to me, Cavi replies to me the other day saying, look, like we really want to do this because we just don't have the time. I'm like, right, I'll be back. Just wait for me. So that one was interesting. Obviously they know Rory Sutherland, really good pals Rory Sutherland. Rory's intro'd me. He's amazing. He's amazing. The one I spent the most effort to get on was Julian Metcalf. Okay. so my i don't know if you know mark palmer i do know he's great so i've the other the other value within all of this but like us is you become mates with some super interesting people like you know we hang out now it's amazing but so i've become good friends with mark and he i was like i'm gonna get julian metcalf on this fucking podcast right i'm gonna do this and so i sent mark a text saying have you got julian's details and he was like you're here's his details as a word of warning he's notoriously difficult in pr he doesn't really do pr and he's only ever done two podcasts steven bartlett and uh mary portis okay and i listened and i was like right sweet game on so i'd spent i reckon i spent maybe 11 11 hours cumulatively on this cold email and I was like there's no way he cannot say say no no to this right and why why was it why was it a no-brainer email that you think that you'd created so I'd listened to every podcast he'd been on okay I'd got four highlights of these things like you said are interesting um well let's let's go start start to finish yeah first thing was build trust i know mark mark's been on the podcast three times second thing i appreciate keep him off it yeah yeah yeah appreciate you're so busy and this is the so so and then i always bold this so absolutely no expectations on getting back to me because every other man and his dog or woman and his dog or whatever is going oh can i have a fancy podcast just being annoying then i've done the homework of these are the things you said i thought these were amazing these are the these are what i would love to talk to you about so it's like i've already prepped the interview these are the other guests and once you've got a good stream of social proof and then i always finish with not like one thing that does my head in is looking forward to hearing from you or all the best fuck that um i hope like we do a whole episode on fucking emails but the thing is is people people are so lackadaisical with emails how long was it though long so yeah so now okay so we'll talk about that so long in a sec but anyway so hope everyone loves hope yep we like we're already on the same side of the table yes can somehow so it's open make this happen i when i'm getting guess i always end with that because i think i said it to sarah about this yeah i hope we can somehow make this happen because it's what those that is basically what a founder's journey is no i love the i love the the we and the happen there because uh like you say there's far too many all the best and uh i'm guilt i do i look forward to your thoughts i mean i have a five sentence rule yeah emails yeah um yeah i take email email psychology i take really very fucking seriously it's it's so to your point about like how long is it don't go in the middle because the middle is where everyone is so if you're going to go long go really long yeah because it's like they'll be fucking hell this guy's really put a lot of effort into this so i went very long like it's quite like the i've started doing this a little bit which is the very short email yeah attachment with the length so that you someone doesn't open an email and go read later they go oh short email and then all the long and then you want them to click the attachment and then you kind of got them yep yeah because yeah i'm with you like either keep it short or not not in the middle not sort of three paragraphs and also you know i i've talked about this is again i talk about emails all the time that um is think like fleet street why do people pick up papers every day yep there's there's some some rationale in that is true yep why are people not reading your cold emails today what's the difference one punchy headline um you know like i've said some god awful things i was like I think I've said please tell me to fuck off loads of times as a subject line which gets their attention.

40:47It sounds like David Brent but it's like feel free to tell me to fuck off. Has anyone emailed back going fuck off? No just no reply but like but as but you you get these things and so that's the first thing and then people are picking up a metro because of because of the image on the front. so so punctuating your um your your outreach with pictures works a charm because then people are like oh my god people they say and it's ironic a picture paints a thousand words right but it really does and i think i'm trying to get hold of marcus wearing yep again that's another that's been a lengthy but wait go back to julian you sorry you compose this wonderful email the other hack founders always work sunday night pretty much because they're prepping for the week yep and it's kind of like so i always send the email if i want a big guest about 8 p.m on a sunday night so i know they'll be probably watching the tv with a glass of red if they drink so that inbox their time is quiet he literally replied within 30 seconds like sure honored i'll do it i was like i was walking around the house i was going fucking come on boy i was like come on boy um which was amazing that was probably one of the most terrifying interviews i've done so wait because it's lovely to get that like instant dopamine i'm in yeah let's do it yeah and it's really easy to write those words if you're julian metcalf yeah sat on the sofa on a sunday night to just go yeah cool let's do it then it's then it's then the challenge happens right of like actually making it happen to actually hearing hearing back from them again so you gotta email them again you gotta go details you gotta go when can you do tell me about that bit yeah that's a really good point actually it's because it's easy to say yes yeah yeah yeah so and and now you're playing this back to me, the amount of people who've said yes and then it doesn't materialise.

43:00So, short date. So if they say yes, don't... It's November when we're recording this, or maybe December, yeah, November. Try and get that interview in the next two weeks. Because this is... All of everything that we're talking about now is exactly the same as, like, trying to get a meeting with a buyer, trying to get a journalist to write about you, trying to get... you know, this is all the same stuff, right? Yeah. No, for sure. And so pin down a time, go back with, I keep it really simple. So I go, I can either do 10 till 12. So I get two hours, 10 till 12 or three till five. Those are my slots.

43:42In the middle of the day, I'm really like lethargic. Do these dates work. Basically try and just begs to borrow, pin them down. and once they've said yes is you once they've said yes it kind of gives you permission to be a bit more pushy i think you know at the beginning you've got to be super like as tell me to fuck off yeah tell me to fuck off with with the shume i'm like like a bit like uh you know arnold schwarzenegger i'll be back but you've got to be ringmaster then you've got to you have to you do have to sort of take control right yeah yeah so then it's like let's okay let's do this this is the date um i think what also helps is um saying i'll come to you yes it just makes it way more it takes it makes it so easy for them to say yes so i'll be at your office on this date does that work um so that's kind of how we secure i've obviously when i'll tell you these people after i had a very big one one of the most downloaded council three times and then i got an email saying look i don't i just don't think i'm gonna have the time to do this um sorry so i went back within like a minute saying really appreciate that i've put in plus 14 hours of prep for this we need to do this i'm sorry but like it's two hours of your time yeah and then they He was like, right, we'll do it.

45:13And then we did it. So I think you can always... Would you have done that kind of thing in those first 20 episodes? So the guy was walking around with his pajamas. I was so just run me over. Yeah. Like, you know, I'm not founder. Who am I? Whereas with him, it was like, this needs to happen. uh and so i think you build the confidence yes that's great though that's yeah yeah and i think you can use that as in brands as well in terms of or anything like getting your kids off swimming like no my kid really is sick yeah like she's been in bed and you know time helps with that um so that that's kind of that and then in terms of the prep that's when it can get hard tell me about your tell me about your prep so so the prep is three drafts I love a quote by Ernest Hemingway which the first draft of everything is shit shitty first draft yeah you need a lot of lead to find gold which I always talk about but the it kind of looks like a very blank canvas of just and like kind of just absorb dunk in as much information that's what did when we first chat found out about your peas um the fact you collect penguin books yeah um all these weird weird random things yes um i'm sorry as in not your collections i'll collect a kind of a cornucopia of different bits and bobs yeah get that and then which is which is that's to me is not prep but that's joyous that's i'm winning doing that prep and then sit you kind of prep it then i'll do the second draft and that's when i create space i'm like okay well what and you need to almost take two three days off and go back to it like okay does that work does that work was that interesting is that interesting um has he talked about this has she talked about that so with julian betgoth on stephen bartlett who did a great job they went a lot into the dark trauma they went a lot into or he went a lot into uh his dad committing suicide which was super sad he went a lot into kind of the dark shadow of being a founder and he went in a lot into pret so okay so that's that that's that done mary portus kind of the same wheelhouse i was like well if i just do that then he's done that and that's just not going to work well not that it's not going to work but it's not going to get the bite do you mean yep so i was like okay let's let's take a step back and i was like well we haven't talked about japan japan's one of the most interesting countries in the world it's super interesting so i was like okay that's that's peaking my curiosity let's that's a path let's go down there so then it's okay start pulling up shit on japan so the book of five rings which is a book about samurai i was like oh founders a bit like samurais really they're so brave bold that's interesting let's talk about that um okay so i think it's a bit reductionist to think all founders are so depressed and sad that's why they've started a business like i really disagree with that yep i think it's one part of the oil or the petrol that goes into the tank yes it's not the only thing no it's like you didn't start seedlet because you You were, you know, there probably was elements of that, of like, fuck you, prove you wrong.

48:48But also like, it's sick to create a brand. Let's help people stop drinking. So I was like, let's play on the positive angle. Anyway, you get all those things down. I was shitting myself going to, I was like, this is the scariest thing I've ever done. I was like, how am I to interview Julian Metcalf? This is mental. Do you do any pre-calls? Do you do any, hey, here's what we're going to talk about. do you ask them if there's anything off topic do you ask them if there's anything they want to talk about no so i've always sort of lived by the quote of like ask for forgiveness ask for forgiveness not permission yeah because i think otherwise you know i've had another instance um and we'll get back to julian where i was interviewing a chef called greg marchant frenchie so he's got an amazing story about both his parents died in a car crash he grew up in an orphanage in france and cooking was his escapism oh this is insane super interesting anyway the pr person asked to see it says can you ask can you ask me the questions they sent me the questions beforehand and um i was like yeah yeah no worries again a bit naive so the question is like he doesn't want to talk about that about the uh his childhood and stuff so i was sat opposite him uh above uh in this kind of like lofty room above covent garden and i just said look come we're gonna i want to talk about this can we talk about this and he was like oh yeah that's fine so the learning there is don't go through the gatekeeper because the gatekeeper wants to look good yes so i'll always just shoot from the hip and just say because otherwise they have time to think about what's coming up yep and i'm like we can edit it post yeah but let's be present and enjoy it now so so that so that that happens you do all the prep and then you walk through i walk through the itzu offices and um they've got like he's got like a uh an old macbook one of the first mac computers from steve jobs in the uh in the kind of reception area yeah i think jesus christ and I've got my little suitcase, my waitress bag.

51:08I've got a bag for life there, mate, which I just use. I nabbed off my mum. She's got all my kit in there. It was quite fun. We did a podcast with the cart the other day and I was like, got to the office. I was like, better change that bag. You don't want to tip up with a plastic Ocado bag. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, and this is what's really interesting. It was everyone, the Mike Tyson quote, everyone's got a plan to their punch in the face so with julian who was amazing is you've got all these questions you all know this you have the questions here but then the guest wants to take you there and you're playing the game of i think it's like a game of conversational chess it's like do i've got this list of questions here this seems interesting um this could help the audience this helps my curiosity so you're playing a game of and at the beginning it's really you're really clunky at it the more you do it it's just why do you think people want to come on the podcast

52:16um now or early on uh in the middle in the middle yeah you know it's a good question if i'm being brutally honest there's not some sort of like deep philosophical answer one social proof works if i say i've got this illustrious list of founders which i do thank thank for heavens yep um and i've got that one through hard work yes but two i got very lucky with timings with lockdown very easy to get hold of founders and lockdowns as well as you're doing fuck all yes so i got lucky but i did work hard so those are the first thing second thing founders have egos there's no two ways about it they like honking their horn that's right um I think maybe a better, not a better lens, but a different way to answer that is why do guests come on again?

53:05So why are you interviewing me again? Or why are you interviewing me? Why are you coming on again after this? Why has Perry been on four times? I think it's because when we talk is, and I haven't actually thought about this, but I think you get fresh ideas is one, new ways of looking at things, two, and space. It's the only time, well, not you because you record, like you've got your own podcast, but it's one of the only times in a week where you have space from your senior leadership team, space from your kids, space from your wife or husband, space from the office. And it is kind of a, that space is so powerful, I think.

53:48And then when you go back into the day-to-day of season or seed lip, I don't know, why are you coming back on again out of interest? I mean, I like you, so I like talking to you. That's why I wouldn't want to come back if I didn't enjoy talking to you. Okay, yeah. Plain and simple.

54:11I thought it would be fun to interview you because I, like you, am curious. And so I know you in one role as a host, but I'm here for my own curiosity to understand what goes on behind the scenes on a podcast and your thinking and all of the bits that you don't get to share. Yeah. and I think you know as you built this kind of following and you've got these great guests I think it's a good I don't know in my opinion I think it's a good opportunity to pause for you to reflect on how brilliantly you've done and maybe expose some of the the thinking behind why you're doing what you're doing and just yeah it's been super because having this conversation is very cathartic and it's very um not necessarily cathartic very yeah creating that space like yeah because I'm always thinking the next thing always thinking it's not good enough always thinking but that's yeah next next next yeah better better better uh and so I do I think it's But to give you, I mean, why did I come on your podcast?

55:39I think it's rare these days. Long form content is rare, right? Everybody's in a fucking hurry and everything needs to be short, sharp, quick, simple, immediate. and having the chance to go into seed lip story or how to run a business, how to create culture, all the challenger stuff that when you're running and you're running fast, you don't get those opportunities. Who really wants to read a long newsletter? I don't really think people want to from a brand. do you know what i mean it's kind of like look if i want to read something long i'm gonna read a book you know um so i it there's a slight indulgence aspect to it you know it feels to kind of talk for longer and go into more detail and it not being media training uh you know about journalists press interviews where ultimately a journalist is going to you know newsflash journalists ask the question doesn't matter what they ask I'm going to say what I want to say right that's that's media training um and there's an element of that to you know coming on your podcast of well I need to make sure I say these five things you know I need to make sure people leave the podcast and are really clear that Seedlip's amazing and they can get it in all these amazing places like they're the bottom lines yeah um so yeah I I you know it should be a win-win for people to come on right um media training thing's really interesting uh I interviewed a rugby player the other week told you yep and And...

57:37and it'll be interesting to talk when we when i interview or chat to you that and that's the other thing I frame it as a conversation, not an interview. Yep. And that's a really simple reframe. And I think words are really important, but this is a conversation. And, you know, I was interviewing Perry last night. He's like, this is, I was like, mate, just imagine we're at a pub, right? It's a chat. It's a chat. But sometimes it takes 20, 30 minutes to get a guest warmed up. Yeah. And also, you know, with. And so how do you, how do you break that down? how do you dissolve that what have you learned um because this was someone you knew right this isn't this isn't like a total stranger i didn't really know him okay we went to school together okay yeah yeah okay um and he's great but it's not like if anything i was shitting myself he's like well he's four years above me you know even when you get to like i'm 30 now but it's like he's still four years above me it's like this is so ridiculous but if anything i was like i'm just the little shitty four former bowling about yeah that's basically if anything i was more nervous doing that because of all the school stuff yes um but so how do you how that's a really good point and i think being i think playing back stuff back to people really helps so say you were to say uh say i was to say like i think you did a really good job of it earlier when i was like i was nervous and then you just played that i was nervous back that's basically an invitation to go there's another door walk down it you play something back so that's the first thing you do that enough times people begin to just slow down the other one i just just and this is not like some this is not some hack it's just it it kind of um this will just happen naturally but if you actually were to examine it probably is i'm quite an open a very open book and i'll talk about all the gnarly nefarious things in me like i'm very open with that that helps other people to open up yes massively to say like this is you know i'm not perfect this is this is wrong um those things happen i interviewed again that's why i can't say who it was but who's an amazing founder done amazing things first hour of that interview was start stop start stop start stop um and do you you hear what it's this interview so it's it's when sometimes the issue is is when the guest approaches it as this is an interview or a podcast and i'm thinking this is a conversation so bridging that getting the guest to walk across that path to the conversation ville if you want to call it that can take a while and what was the just just to like on that specific one and i'm you know i'm we're recording a podcast at the moment and so i'm i'm kind of seeing it from the other side uh what happened leading up to that first hour like how long did you spend with the guests before you hit record that's a really good point um it all depends and it depends on what they're what they're coming into into the frame so julian came in really like came straight from meeting had a green tea in his hand was like we have to go and it was like so the first bit was almost just easing that out being like so we probably spent 15 20 minutes chatting just to take that you're not in a meeting now you're in a podcast yeah um and we'll i mean we'll talk about this but that's why i love learning going to the best restaurants going to the best hotels like all these things like you learn from maitre d's in front of houses how do you make someone comfortable like all these things i pick up on right yep um the hard ones are when there's not much preamble yeah especially on zoom because you're having to build rapport you're having to build rapport as you're going which is just so hard i made a load of people laugh on zoom yesterday and i was just like fucking hell i'm done this is amazing i've i've i've managed to make people laugh through a screen there they're even most of them are even in another country this is you interviewing people no me presenting to people uh what were you presenting i was pitching to some investors right uh yeah i managed to make him laugh on zoom which i was just like guys is such a hard medium you know it's really hard yeah and trying to trying to as you're talking about have someone feel at ease and safe and comfortable to not answer interview questions and to kind of be there and be a human yeah that's that's hard yeah and also i think the other thing is to ask there's there's such a rote mechanical way of asking questions which is tell me how seedlet started yeah yeah um you know what's advice you'd give to your younger self i don't know i'm speaking like that but you know what i mean so it's pick something so fucking random and that's why the prep's so important that straight away it gives you if you haven't got gravitas it gives you gravitas so it's like good example maybe when i interviewed you my opening question was what is what's nature to you in one sentence you know it's quite a big question you're like okay that this guy's serious so i need to be serious yes because otherwise you can just get someone who's just like to do this is a this is another podcast this is another interview this is another conversation yeah and look the you know there'll be people listening i would hope to this who who this will you know really chime with when you run a business and especially in the food and drink space probably in any anything you there's this kind of there's loads of things that you say over and over and over again and you know it might be the answer to where the name comes from the answer to how it started the business update on performance um the product information they're like there's these there's 50 questions that have stock answers and i try and this is not what's recommended but I cannot say the same thing twice the same way I have to keep it interesting for myself otherwise I feel like I'm just just reading a script and I feel like a fraud doing that because I don't feel like that's being genuine and respectful to the person that I'm saying it to it's almost like uh you don't fucking matter because I'm just going to regurgitate the stock answer because i just do that on autopilot and then so i yeah i i i feel like your approach of you know doing great prep and not asking the same stock answer uh questions um from a interviewee perspective counts for a lot yeah i think and but again this is not these are these are it's not like there is part of it which is like let's do this to get gravity like to get to get the uh the guests kind of on board or in the moment straight away is is part of it but going back to the kind of curiosity pits it's like i'm genuinely just following my curiosity so um i was yeah with you i was like oh okay so ben's got peas tattoos on his hands right like got a brand all about nature or a nature business but what does nature mean like that it started as as that it's not like it was like okay i need to find a bit to get ben's attention yep it do you mean it's not because otherwise it that will feel kind of forced but they're more enjoyable to talk you know not that people don't enjoy his explaining the product or here's where the name came from or here's how it all started but they definitely there are more interesting things that people want to talk about about their businesses or about that journey for want of a better word um and so you're you're sort of preaching to the choir there because you're like oh he's found something that i'm really passionate about that i really believe in yeah let's talk about that great rather than oh there's that other question that everyone always asks yeah so there's the answer that everyone always gets you know it it it changes i think that but also what's selling has become so easy like i don't mean that in an arrogant way but it's but it's like what joe rogan's got a quote which is if you're scared of anything go and do stand-up comedy because that is so scary and hard that'll make everything else seem like a piece of piss getting interviewing julian metcalf was the scariest one of the scariest things even before i interviewed you mate i was like who i've got such imposter syndrome do you know i mean i was you know wasn't wasn't smoking whatever but like you have that imposter syndrome so then when you suddenly go to a sales pitch to sell i mean we could talk about sponsorship as well and how to monetize it that's that's an interesting story yes but you know going to a nicado meeting or a waitress meeting was like i'm not nervous anymore because there's that really helps and i think the other and you also why do you keep doing this another reason this is going right back to the beginning is i was i was like this was going to get me better at sales yeah it was another kind of why in the engine of why you're doing this it's like communication i know and it's you know in the broadest sense of the word sales right it's sales right you are getting someone to do something yeah and then you're creating a product and you're distributing it yeah like in plonky literal terms yeah it's a brilliant sales exercise in that sense and it sounds like for you it's been a brilliant sort of learning growing up and i don't mean that in a really fucking condescending way um confidence builder oh yeah that was that's such such a good point is uh huge confidence builder and i think only now from sort of stopping drinking for three months even though tonight's the night i'm going out booze i'm going out the old manny manny life lot tonight so it will probably be a bit busy but that's been a big help as well um in terms of sort of finding finding that inner peace um which when you're like drinking lots it doesn't like it kind of escapes you do you mean it's a mirage in the distance that you're trying to cling on to but the it was definitely a confidence builder massively a confidence builder and it it gives you i don't know i think it's there's i call it the trough of sorrow which is a morbid way of saying at paul graham but there's that moment and i love looking at the the graph because it just goes boom boom boom up to down down down down yeah but it's that grit and actually it's like the reason i did it and the reason i kept pushing through that is just like this isn't really this is sick if this gets monetized this is sick if this becomes a full thing which is mad now it is right but at the time it was like this is getting me better at sales which improves my job i'm meeting interesting people which improves my network and i'm building confidence that's enough yeah that's a pretty that's a pretty big win yeah and how many episodes have you done now um well over 100 maybe 130 in since when since 2020 2020 the first i mean they were so so sporadic to begin with i do one month where i release three in a month and then just take two months off not release one i had none of this i mean you're being super smart like pre-bolt your content yeah that's yeah that's but that's also a massive risk right you're like do things do loads of stuff spend loads of effort take loads of time zero fucking idea whether it's going to work or people are going to listen to it i mean that's yeah maybe we'll save this for or on our record actually yeah don't start interviewing me yeah yeah yeah yeah why food and drink i know you said right at the beginning i i love my food but why your career the podcast why why food and drink um drink i think because i've always loved food i mean it's not a much deeper level like more about the plate of food is hilariously how you said nature is everything i really believe the plate of food is everything it's like when you get that food it's it's a kind of a moment and a vehicle for there's two sizes the say you're consuming the food there's a table consuming the food you get the the grit the determination the pulling of nature the supply chain the farmers like that is is life goes into that one plate and then you have the the single-mindedness the grit the determination and this is whether it's a plate food or a brand for example um the kind of determination the everything and the team that goes into into building that the brigade of chefs or the brigade of the brand goes into building that one moment and that that you know is is art it's creativity and that thing that vessel of everything kind of gets ready ready ready ready and goes on to gets given to someone and that that piece of food or that plate of food can be there can like help people can be a moment to pause for people can be a moment to celebrate can be a moment to when you're sad, when you're jubilant, you know, funerals, weddings, there's always food, always food.

1:12:10When the Queen's dies, there's food. When the King's incarcerated, not incarcerated, what's the word, whatever, there's food. And I think, and it's been like that since the beginning of time. Food's never changed. But it's just listening to you talking about all the the grit the care the determination the time the effort uh the farming the supply chain and now i'm just sat there thinking you're talking uh visualizing this sort of plate of food and then i don't know i'm one of the quickest eaters i've ever come across right because growing up with two other brothers and at school like you don't eat fast enough you you don't you don't get any more food um so i eat i eat really quickly and i don't talk when i eat and i don't drink when i eat so when i've got that play of food for me that is that eating experience is actually nothing to do with anybody else and it's not i've you know i finished because other people are talking and then i can then i can talk and then i can have a drink but yeah that that plate of food piece is massively all consuming but then i'm sat here thinking well and it's gone right and it's eaten and it's consumed and you think about all the effort and time that has gone into this thing that is so as you're talking about which i'm loving like so all-encompassing and it's over this is really deep and we're getting it's going into deep waters but that it's almost like that's like life yes in the grand scheme of things it's like we think we're here for a long time it's a very fleeting moment and then bang but then guess what the next plate of food comes yeah the next cow is milked or cut up yeah but like it keeps going yes and food is almost this little moment and i'm like you i scoff my face like i'm not a you know i'm a glutton and i will kind of just not even come up for fucking yet especially if i'm a curry house mate you ain't getting near me and i'm also like one of those i'm like the corporal of the masala do you know what i mean i'm like get your fucking hands off those chops pal like i've got my eyes on them and i've got my eyes on those samosas as well i'm not a big sharer yeah yeah but but but but even so it's that moment i think brands can have that ability as well they're not that's why i love interviewing chefs and and founders i think yes i think they're the two marry up really nicely but i think with a brand is you have more instead of it being like a moment like a moment when you're in a restaurant and you're consuming the food it's a brand is really interesting because it has way more opportunities i.e if it's really tastes really good weekly uh daily to tell that story whereas with a chef it's kind of like unless you're going back to that restaurant and there's they're not there's not both both right there's not one yes but but it's just there's two different tapestries of how to tell that story but It's the same thing, really.

1:15:26You go and eat in a... I feel really lucky that I've eaten in some incredible places and had incredible, memorable experiences that are... Some of them would be like once in a lifetime. I'm probably never going to go back to those restaurants. But then on the flip side, we're talking about white mass hour, probably just fucking murdered that word. but white mouse suit white mouse suit yeah yeah yeah that's in our house anyway that's like a a daily moment of glory right yes because just getting it on anything and everything and it's it's different from you know being with my wife you know in Noma during game season and sitting there in the restaurant with the overwhelming feeling that I needed to touch her tummy because for some reason I thought she was pregnant.

1:16:34And doing that and saying to her, I think you're pregnant, and then her doing a test and her being pregnant, you know, So that kind of, there's that sort of mind blown, holy shit, we'll always remember that kind of experience for so many, for lots of reasons. So, yeah, I'm a total believer in the slight transcendental aspect of what a plate of food. Yeah, and a Brant, and I think it's... Can do. and then the other the other part of this is we obsess with fantasy and stories as human beings harry potter gold um uh lord of the rings insert whatever weird fantasy you have maybe that's not saying it but um and magic and the mystical and myth like the hero's journey joseph campbell like we're obsessed with myth and these magical things it's like yeah but i genuinely believe magic is right in front of you creating different dishes and flavors is literally magic every single day i mean and that's amazing do you know how fucking sick that is is you can but it's taking a step back and actually looking at the alchemy of creating a different plate of food or following a recipe following recipes a magic trick and then you get to eat it and i genuinely believe eating a banging meal and you just eat and you just it just sends everything going and you're like wow like that is just mad and i actually i asked this to chefs what what's is is is like is food art or magic is a question i ask and they all say art they say they say the art the um they say the food is art and the service is the magic which i kind of get yeah i kind of get but i i yeah it's the difference between how you feel eating the same plate of food you know in a in a cubicle somewhere in a fucking shitty festival god knows what with it pissing down with rain versus eating it in a top restaurant like it's gonna taste different yeah you know yeah yeah yeah and i i think but but but i but i do think the i i i agree with them on that regard but i still think it's magic like to get those are you a good cook um i was and then now i've moved home I don't know how I was I was I was and then I had a lobotomy and it all went um I I that's a great yeah that that's that I was a good cook um I do you like cooking I do like cooking um what now I've moved back home my parents for a bit I'll be honest like my mum does the fucking spag bol do you know I mean I'm not gonna mess about that um but you like your mom's cooking i do yes it needs to be seasoned more well we'll talk about that later but the um that was a joke by the way um but total fucking madman so like i would when i was living in with my mate he'd come in he's a stockbroker i work around here and he was very much like uh i'm gonna get some chicken breasts i'm gonna do an avocado and i'm put some nando sauce in it and you're away he'd come in and walk in the kitchen like poke me what are you doing i'd have like ready steady cook i'd have like an otolenghi book there i'd have another book there i'll be trying to do spend five hours on that otolenghi kind of um aubergine side dish and then do like a bbc food uh total carnage total mess very messy but love but loved it and um you know i think so to answer the question not a good cook okay like i'm not gonna sit here and say you know matt you know yeah i can mean uh rustled it yeah what's it what's everyone that makes a um olive um that olive pasta that's uh putinesca god yeah private school fucking dish around yeah yeah um but so not like that but would would go wild with trying loads of different things okay that's so not a good cook but you but do you enjoy the process of cooking sounds like you yeah liked having a go yeah and actually I think the in terms of the uh doesn't hungry do you have a supper club or am I making that up yeah have a supper club yeah you have a supper club as well you want to come a bit closer yeah sorry mate um yeah have a supper club um we we kind of pick restaurants we've done it in coal rooms we've done it at caravan um we've done it caravan coal rooms then we did one in Ramona in Manchester one of the best places I've ever been to you've been up there?

1:21:24No I haven't mate it is so the guys who have owned it, Manchester is amazing at the minute, we did an event with a co-op there but like it's basically a Detroit pizza place and then it turns into this drag kind of hacienda party like and you're just like I mean the co-op had left by this point yeah all the buyers and there's loads of sort of drag kind of fucking things going on um that was very much the after you know at sort of 11 o 'clock it turns into into a different beast um but that uh i'm trying to think what i was talking about that well not what i was talking about where i was going food food eating eating cooking supper club oh that was it sub club that was it um they yes we did one there but going back to the cooking not i love the curiosity and the creativity of it and and actually what i like about food again another kind of life lesson in cooking is nish goes right back to what we're talking about at the beginning of do you follow the curriculum or do you follow your curiosity how you cook like not when i when i was living out moving out i'd never really i'd have a recipe there but i'm like right i'm going to sort of golf piece here i think that's that's a great lesson of life of like yeah do you follow the recipe or do you go with baking apart with baking yeah and um with that approach um failure or success or success i think seth goden talks about this about the reason he likes cooking so much or like just going so weird with his cooking is it's a great reminder that some just shipping work shipping podcast episodes shipping going out and selling your brand whatever some will be good some will be bad but just keep doing it yes and i think that's with cooking um that's what you get from it and that's what i do miss from when i was living in london is is doing that every day whereas now i'm so busy with this that i'm like fucking banging as a plate of food and yes i'm very grateful yeah thanks mom yeah here's the seasoning here's my washing as well my bed mate um why why did you decide to go full-time on this and how was that so i've rough um i was in lisbon and i basically sort of left manny life and um which was amazing six five years there which was sick like i that's where i got the real buzz for building seeing what's like to be in a team like that was amazing yeah met some amazing people who i'm seeing tonight and but then it got to a point it's like do i do the podcast or do i do i do i stick around and then i sort of thought do i build a brand do i actually launch a brand a lot of people say to me why haven't you launched a brand yeah and uh a product a product food and drink product yeah yeah so so i have a brand yeah so i have the yeah sorry a product so so the you are a founder yeah yeah yeah it's like therapy for me exactly man and uh giving your subconscious fucking yeah yeah yeah curveballs and and what yeah what's when i launched product i think you need a big dose of naivety naivety is momentum um i knew how hard it was to build a brand because i'd seen that yes or build a product if that's what i'm saying or get a get a brand in grocery i was like that's yeah yeah and also i was like a physical thing physical thing and i was like okay so what am i going to go all in on so if i put i don't think right now in my life i could be the best in the world at creating a product to go a supermarket one i'm knackered two i've got this podcast which is setting me on alive on fire that's whatever i'm saying it um and and also like i don't want to be on the phone to like a to a warehouse like lenham's saying where's my order has it not gone to the central depot in waitrose yeah i don't want to raise money i want to follow my curiosity yep i don't want to manage people i want to manage this sounds really david brent i want to manage my curiosity yeah i've said it but once i want to do that and i want to be able to go around the world going to columbia in two weeks two weeks i'll be in columbia that's what i want to do right now and i believe you know there's multiple iterations of what you can do like you are moving to talk about this like seed it was a was a movie or a book yeah but that that finished and then you've gone on to a season right and yeah it's chapters it's chapters so i think for this chapter i was like i want to try and i probably i may not but i've i can go quadruple in on this and just work like a demon and like i don't get tired like i can work all day on this and it's easy whereas to go and find a brand find investment come up with a name don't do it it's painful but i want to do that eventually okay um you do want to have your own physical yeah but but whether that that may not be a natural food and drink product so things i've thought about is um let's just get my pen and paper yeah yeah yeah yeah so so things i've thought about is um hungry as and this these are just ideas right so this will change by tomorrow I'll ultimately finish the conversation.

1:27:08Don't hold into it. So I think I want to create a business book that looks like a cookbook, that looks like a coffee table cookbook. So you have it in every challenge brand office and it's like, okay, page five, Ben Branson. This is his seven, his recipe for hiring, your seven questions. Like that would be sick. And it's like fucking thick, looks amazing. Looks like a cookbook, you know, cookbook's a piece of art. I think that would be a sick product. I think... Mugs. mug not necessarily mugs but like i would love to get some sort of artist um who does these mugs but like it's more potteries probably the right way of saying it but why not everyone has coffee cups in the in the office why not have some lessons from guests on there so i mean i probably wouldn't put this on a pottery cup but james bailey availability is you know if you're not all over availability it's like scoring down goal like if a sales manager sees that as they're about to jump on a fucking phone call to the co-op supply chain that that's how i'm thinking so it's like how do you create products that able that um journey uh the other thing is like creating getting artists to create um to create like some of those learnings in into something go in an office so that's one part of the product piece i've thought about yeah i've obviously thought about straight up doing a brand yeah or a product under sort of which i think i will do eventually the other thing is almost doing the finding and i really believe this is i've waxed lyrical about this but chefs moving in to products is huge yes com straker into all things butter andrew hartnett has done something with um bella zoo yeah jim carner yeah yeah i think i would love to find I interview Tommy Banks you know Tommy Banks the chef he's got Banks Brothers wine yes the fallow guys have sriracha yes um I'd love to go to someone like Paul Ainsworth and say Paul you've got the following you've got the gravitas you've got the flavor profile let's let's get a brand into into retail and then almost use going as a co-founder leverage the network I've built from the podcast that's that's an interesting play yep um and then another interesting play would be yeah but that i think that would almost do like what you've done so almost not close this chapter but have something bubbling with for five or six years and then just strike yeah hi guys super super quick one so so excited look for years i've been badgering on about hungary the podcast you're probably bored to death thanks for putting up with me but hungary is also an agency and we and look after one amazing brand called Ireland's Chocolate.

1:29:57We've had a great time over the year. We've won listings at a load of wholesalers. We've won Milk and More. We've got our first grocery listing coming very soon, which is very, very sick. But what I'm thrilled to announce is Hungary's merging with HC Consulting. My boy Harry Clark and his wonderful team, he's an absolute G. They do brand strategy, new business, business and account management. But why I really love working with Harry and why we've got on so well over the last couple of months is harry was actually the founder of uh the boozy isolate brand pops he's been in the trenches he's grafted his face off he's had the sleepless nights he's had the turmoil he's had the triumph he knows what it is to be a founder he is a founder and he's got a proven track record in grocery and out of home holy moly dips the gut stuff savile drinks remio gelato so if your brand and you're you're stuck you're looking for like new business help you're looking to scale drop us a message we'd love to chat thank you so much back to the old episode yeah because i i think it's i love it's harder to do this with a food and drink product because of all the work that goes into it but you know i i love restaurants that just fucking close and and phoenix and kind of you know reinvent themselves and reopen and keep it fresh and keep and change and i think that's harder to do for food and drink brands where you know you're making this physical thing that's got a whole supply chain attached to it and you can't just close it down one day and then start another one um but i like hearing you know the first few things that you were talking about there a lot of that sounds like that's you know in line with with the podcast in terms of like giving back and it sort of feels like oh you're trying to sort of recycle this wisdom and recycle the learnings so that yeah the sales manager as you said is you know got something on his coffee cup before before his meeting yeah or yeah not the um the idiot's guide to food and drink brands but the hungry book being that kind of reference point of collating and pooling and i'm sure this is what the talk that you give is is about when you talk about your reflections of like here's the kind of distilled and filtered down here's what you need to know because i've done all the work and i've heard all the things and i'm now translating it into something that's easy for you you know the pirelli book the famous yes with the famous models on it it's a juggernaut book um which is for listeners it's like a book with loads of models um on there but it's like it's it's a kind of you walk in to a place and if that book's on the table and there's probably numerous other examples it's like oh they're kind of it says a lot about that i would love to for a situation in five years time it's like someone goes to an interview in future season or um for like insert the blank dash uh pipping up whatever and it's like that book on the table sort of says like we're we're a serious brand like that would be really like fulfilling to me hey look we everybody that joined seed lip so we had in total we hired 120 people over the first three and a half years and everybody that joined got three books right and that was you know ironically what you didn't get was like here's a bottle of seed lip um what books uh so there was brutal simplicity of thought by mc saatchi which takes about five minutes to read and basically says it takes a fuckload more work time effort to make something simple most people don't bother so most of the world is confused and cluttered and complicated and that's why only a few brands products people ideas actually succeed and cut through is because they've done the work before putting something out there.

1:34:13Second one was Dave Trott's Predatory Thinking. Oh, he's so good. I'm such a massive fanboy of his. So you've got that one plus one equals three? Yeah. His writing is brilliant. His writing is brilliant. And that was just all about telling stories beautifully and simply and succinctly that moves people. And, you know, he writes short stories. But the way that he, you know, David Hart definitely is in that sort of camp of storytelling of you don't need to write kind of lots of words to tell a really great story and move somebody. and books shouldn't be fucking judged on how long they are you know it's how much they cost anyway that's an aside um so yeah that and then um holy shit i've forgotten the third one it could have been could have been um dan's book from stone barns third plate that could have been one of them it's all about just the magic of nature and eating fantastic produce fuck that's annoyed me i can't remember the third one but yeah they um the hungry book could be could have been one of those books yeah yeah and i think i'd want it to be massive so it looks like it like i don't know why i don't know why but like just almost like not that it takes up the whole thing but just yeah but what about the to play devil's advocate to you what about the pocket guide what about the hold on a minute i'm just i'm the sales manager i haven't seen the mugs he's not done the fucking mug yet yeah yeah where's that little where's that where's my handy little guide well that that's the uh i mean if you're really teasing this out you could go into the you do like a sales one you do a you do a thing i've also i was joking about this yesterday but creating and this is teasing ideas out but another podcast called thirsty obviously hungry thirsty that'd be jokes or famished i couldn't do that that'd be pushing the boat out but yes but the i think there's a lot of interesting spaces you can play with um but it's built it's building out hunger as a platform right yeah so uh yeah i guess there's a sort of spider gram way in which you can take it into lots of different directions i think the hardest bit at the minute is focus okay is don't get the other things potentially like a fund is is one thing i've thought about because i've thought about um some of my mates of course who i know are sick founders like i've they've got the legs to build the brand i can see it they've they've got the kind of warmers at ab and bear the category is interesting it's a brand called local beer local as i'm playing on the local going for local pine and then also locale galleries they need access to investors this is i mean this is literally i've got i've got meeting with them after this right so this is just teasing things out yeah that could be interesting yeah um there's all sorts of different ways ways to skin the cat but what you can but and i am having to sort of put myself in a straight jacket of um focus because i'm the sort of guy until recently would go and sort of fiddle around with those 10 things and it's like you've got to hit monday you've got to hit friday podcast monday and just keep the main thing the main thing yeah like keep putting the content it's a real muscle to build isn't it so hard and that's what i mean we'll explore and when i chat with you shortly is is how you do that because i think it's i think once you've got to a situation where like you're in which is amazing where you've built and sold you've now kind of got the gravitas we've got huge gravitas of you know but your name's synonymous with that alcohol-free space is you can you can kind of take the blinker off slightly and you've got the time and the resource to try different things at the minute i don't or i don't but also i just it just takes away from the main thing and at some point it won't um it won't because you understand you understand that the main thing and the main focus has to be what you're doing now yeah and you the shiny baubles will be there right they're not going anywhere all the shiny all the shiny things that and toys that you want to play with they're not going anywhere no one's it's not cold for christmas don't worry mate you know yeah but you do just have to be a good boy and keep that focus because you'll be rewarded for it and you'll get the opportunity to play with the shiny toys and then the book and the mugs and you know funds all that good stuff um there's an alcohol free beer brand which i won't say who it is but probably people can guess it but they've just done one one product really really really well for a very long time and that's worked and their value is just do one thing well whereas now they're changing it to do the right thing well because they've hit a point where you have to be there's different on the on that curve to growth there's different stages i think do one thing well is quite if you just do that for 50 years fuck me you're going to be bored right but if you if you try and do too many things too early then you're just going to be going around like a headless chicken they've done the one thing well and they've got probably here the listeners quite high up the curve they're at a point now where that has to change to do the right thing well so out of the the kind of the trunk it or the bucket of new shiny toys which what's the right thing okay let's do the right thing well that unlocks that next stage of growth but it's just knowing where you are on that curve right now i'm here like and i have to just just keep cranking out the reps do you mean yeah um but yeah it's and then you can play with the new toys yeah um well i look yeah i i very much look forward to like following you if i if i wasn't so excited for you for hungry i'd be trying to get you to come work for me but um because i i really i've got a lot of time for you and I think I love the way that your brain works I like the way you think I think your your passion and your commitment and uh yeah just just kind of for want of a better word hunger for this is is is amazing and I you're putting in the fucking time and you're putting in the hard yards and you're seeing that be rewarded because of the caliber of guests that you get on there.

1:41:22Yeah, and so I think that's amazing. Well done. Appreciate that. And yeah, thank you for like, we'll wrap this up, let's hear it, then we'll have a breather. Thank you so, so much for listening to the podcast. I really, really do appreciate it. If you liked that episode, only if you liked it, Please do give it five stars. Subscribe. Tell all your friends, families, foes, next door but one, cat, dog, whatever. Please tell everyone about this podcast. It means the world to me. And I really want to understand what your pain points are as the new wave of Challenger food and drink brands. Please do hit me up on LinkedIn.

1:41:58Search Dan Pope. And hopefully we can together create a more meaningful and powerful podcast for the next wave of Challenger food and drink brands. Thank you so much.