BOTIVO’s 12 Unusually Lavish Brand Building Principles That Could Change Your Life

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2:01Buongiorno, buongiorno. You are in for an absolute treat. Bativo are hands down, categorically, unacquokably, one of my favourite brands at the minute. The liquid is a surty banger. It is so good. I remember the first time I tried it. It's a complex, dark, intense, light, sour, sweet flavour voyage of just deliciousness. What Sam has created is just insane so so good and imma his partner in crime is a brand sensei she is what they've created the level of depth these guys have gone into is like something i've never heard before huge levels of depth there's tons in this episode that i think you're going to absolutely love and can apply to your brand imma has this gorgeous framework for creating brands that really stand out she goes through these four sort of tensions and playing to tensions as brands i blew my mind you can apply immediately we go deep into why bativa have created all these characters on the pack on their packaging and it's this this huge this huge thing that i think nobody really thinks about is psychographic versus demographic and brands that really focus on psychographic versus demographic can really open up their market we talk about sort of first second third order consequences of brand touch points what do you lead with we go deep into how the brand the genesis of the brand which started at lavish parties like calvin harris uh prince harry and megan's wedding uh we go or we just go everywhere all sorts a real chocolate box conversation we end up talking about uh childhood in japan in norway it was just it's delicious conversation so buckle up strap in enjoy it if you do enjoy it please leave us a review five stars por favoro please do share it with a mate on WhatsApp.

3:48Every little helps, as they say. Yeah, thank you so much. Love you long time.

4:01Sam, Imer, thank you so much for doing this. Massive fan of what you're building at Bativo. As I said, I was at that Lura restaurant the other week. It cost me a fucking fortune. But the only kind of seeing grace from that was the drink Bativo. and it's just amazing when you kind of have it in that restaurant setting as we were saying earlier like in those credential um influential plates where they pour it perfectly with the orange it's just it is so delicious and uh yeah then i obviously just love love the brand love the color which is yeah i think we'll probably start with the color it's just such a unique color as we were saying it's not a in your face yellow yellow it's got like richness and depth and texture to it um and also just love all the activations you're doing i think the yellow piano is a slice of genius i think it's very purple cow-esque um and yeah so thanks thanks for doing this thanks for having us um what i want to start with is is the color and i think the the juxtaposition of artisanal hedonism is that kind of wet my curiosity straight off the bat and um it's always part of of life it makes life interesting um but why why that color why does that color and that depth of color represent hedonism uh in bativo and like yeah why did you go with that car because you could have gone with a whole myriad of different um colors well there was a few historical reasons and then also when we would develop the brand so so i don't know how much you know about where the brand started so where the brand started and where it is now so um so the the was actually a bottle that existed before i came on um as sounds business partner and rebranded it and the yellow wax was actually all part of the original bottle um and then we sort of redid the whole brand and and then sort of realized that spoke loads consumers realized that the yellow was like what people remembered it stood out on the shelf in trade it was you know what people really attach themselves to and um we decided to kind of take that even further and make the label yellow and then make the world yellow and then trademark the yellow hour as our consumption a moment and then sort of took it to the next level because with a kind of marketing hat on the key thing for me is stickability and i think like color is such a interesting shortcut to stickability and being memorable as a brand so we wanted to just dominate that every single touch point from a brand point of view yeah people would often remember the yellow they wouldn't actually remember the actual name that colour would be yellow wax as you say it was so sticky and cement to get rid of it the original reason why we used it was because our A there was no other products around that had yellow but also the honey that we used to begin with was this amazing yellow color and i mean it was a nightmare so it was sort of it came set and he had to like pick up a sort of that came like sort of 50 kilo buckets like that and sort of it was solid it was solid set honey and i'd have to sit there just sweating scraping honey out the barrel and i just get it into the into our tanks and that yellow hour thing is interesting because i think i think that's another thing i picked up like owning that specific occasion what is that yellow hour like in terms of and how does that link to hedonism do you know i mean that kind of that moment you're trying to occupy so i think a brand a lot of people said to me like brands back to the stickability place a piece i think the yet only a color is is your shortcut to stickability fucking love that and i think the um obvious example this is perfect head with that green yeah it's like hammer at home so you know exactly what it is but i think in terms of the yellow hour is i think brands are trying to occupy like a one percent of someone's brain and like the the faster you can get to that one percent whether it's an app like a literal time or a color or a word like hedonism the stickier it gets but how did you yeah what what is that yellow hour like or how does that that hour what kind of bubble up into the big thesis of the brand you know yeah i mean to be honest that sort of it doesn't all start with the inner hour the yellow hour comes from a few things like you know i've worked in brands building for you know almost 20 years and i think the one thing that everyone needs when it comes to drinks is like a really clear consumption moment right like what's the occasion when you're going to drink something and particularly in the non-alcoholic space i think the biggest challenge is people don't know you know when it's for or what to create around it or you know let people you know they just sort of think it's an alcohol moment which then becomes an alcoholic moment and that's not what we wanted to create we wanted to own a moment a feeling a vibe and the yellow hour came from you know a play on the golden hour um and you know now the golden hour being you know that moment you know um when the light's beautiful everyone's taking photos and you're having drinks with your pals in the pub and everyone's like oh my god it's a golden hour yeah yeah yeah and everyone knows what that feels like you know it feels like a really exciting time of day it feels like you're winding down you're moving into the next stage, you're with your pals, everyone feels great.

9:20It's a very emotional space for me. And the yellow hour came from that, which was we wanted to own yellow, we wanted to own an occasion. It's an aperitivo, and an aperitivo is between five and seven. It's that moment when you slip out of work and you want something really special to demarcate the next stage in your day. And the yellow hour is what that's about. So it's about really owning an occasion that linked to our brand yeah because i was speaking to margo henderson does rochelle canteen oh what owns does rochelle canteen and she was saying that uh we're talking about like the art of drinking negroni and it's like you what you want is that that smack of your it's such a smack when you first start drinking yeah that it does kind of demarcate a moment in time where you're like moving to a different part of the day but then she was saying you drink it slowly enough the ice at the end you need that hit when you're stressed like bang right it's time to chill but the ice as it melts then you kind of the drink kind of dances with you in terms of the drink's so powerful at the beginning but by the time it's it's kind of watered down with the ice um it's it you're kind of looser and goose as well and i think yours yours does it because it's got that i don't know this apple cider vinegar kind of hit but it was the bittersweet backbone is what you talk about like it's just that it has that kind of smack around the face and then it just but obviously you're not getting twisted on it because it's alcohol free but it has that that kind of moment which as i say i think it moves into it into a different part of the day in terms of like to take us to 3am mexico city like take us to that whoever wants to lead that we can talk about how batiba came about i think i think like for me what's really interesting about it is that most non-alcoholic drinks brand started because someone i don't know they couldn't drink or they were pregnant or they were sober and so they decided they wanted to you know create a drinks brand and that for me is a very different starting point i think bativo started a completely different way it started very organically which yeah no exactly we were you know sorry mate no like bativo bativo sort of came about um it was actually i made for the clients like another business i have called run run which is like a drinks consultancy and event company and you know we still did like fancy parties for some fancy people and you know like when our clients were asking for like more sophisticated like non-arquatic options I sort of as a sort of lover for sort of craft and like making drinks like a run runner like our thing was always to sort of start with raw ingredients it was never to sort of buy in purees or liqueurs we make everything ourselves which you know which basically meant that like when I started asking for non-arquatic products I wanted to have a go at making my own one.

12:07And I looked to the markets to see what was out there and realised that one of the main things that was missing in the non-acolic category was that sort of craft or maker culture. If you look at any sort of adjacent category, you have brewers and beer and you have winemakers in wine and like pistilas. But in the non-acolic space, there was very little of that. And that was like a big part of the sort of brief I gave myself for Bativo. And what were some of these lavish parties you were doing? Like, take us to one of those. Go on, tell him. He's so low-key, he never shows up about it. Look at the royal wedding.

12:41Yeah, I need to hear about this. That sounds interesting. Yeah, we did lie. I mean, Bramon has done some extraordinary. Because that is the hedonism part of it. And I think there's some of the greatest ideas start at these lavish parties. Not specifically your lavish parties, but one of these things is it's like all these... if you actually kind of look at this as they're microcosms of cities like the reason london's so creative is there's so many fucking interesting people there colliding whereas if you go to say i mean i keep lambasting hull but like hull hasn't exactly got the same as london right so these parties are where all these interesting ideas intersect so yeah what was kind of the the lavish parties maybe take us to one and what was kind of the receptive feedback you were getting because i think as you say no one was taking craft to uh the low to no alcohol free category but then something obviously happened at this in the zeitgeist what made you think right let's actually keep moving with this tell them about some of the parties you did though yeah that's what I'm interested yeah tell me about the hedonism you did the royal wedding yeah the royal wedding yeah which one did you do which one Harry Megans yes we asked for Pitt for that one Calvin Harris' wedding yeah we did Calvin Harris' well what was the wedding like Harry Megans yeah yeah what was she like I mean she was lovely yeah I mean you should write for a cane magazine he won't tell me anything I'm always I'm always trying to get the inside yeah I mean tensions were high that sort of cocktail tasting you're also like please like the drinks yeah and but you know we did Eddie Goulding we did Calvin Harris who's done stuff for Kate Moss flown out to Qatar to make sort of cocktails for three hours for the royal family we were doing sort of like you know big fantasy parties where people really cared about like the quality of the dream king yeah because i think you learn at the cross section of everything like i interviewed the founder of innocent the other week adam ballon and he's got a racing car um addiction he loves racing cars around tracks and i was like oh what does racing cars teach you about brand building like because he and he was like i've never thought about it and he goes well actually it's the delicate dance between like high octane energy as in you're razzling a car around brands i was gonna say brand tree brands hatch so it's that like kind of rest just like grinding down but actually a lot of race car driving is data and you know if you go into a car without looking at the data you're just going to go off the grid so he's like that's what brand building is like is it's like it's a dance between high octane energy with like kind of the the delicate soft organizational touch of um of data and i think at these parties which are like probably lavish what were some of the learnings you took from that that you think of kind of oozed into the into the brand like the honey i suppose well i mean like you just like you've got to be ready like whatever happens 500 people are pointing to the door in two hours like yeah ready um i mean in terms of like a sort of like legit they're like a logistical nightmare we'll have like multiple vans up to some 20 people yeah we'll have a ticker to a thousand things we're going like it's just sort of like i think also the brief for the product that you created came from the demands of of of people in that space right they were sort of quite popular and they wanted something that was you know non-alcoholic but had no flavorings no preservatives full taste all natural like really craft like made from scratch and i think that's when you realize it didn't exist that's when you created it yeah definitely and then um and then yeah and then i guess like you know the first first sort of challenge we had was like how to overcome like you know like a key thing for me like three three key things one i want to bring some craft into the category one another one was like i wanted it to sort of not rely on like preservatives to sort of stabilize it.

16:22I also wanted to use like real ingredients and I guess the toughest one to begin with was like how to overcome the sort of shelf life because everything natural wants to sort of go off and so just sort of bought every book I could under the sun on like preservation and sort of just you know read everything I could and I sort of came across these like ancient tonics called oxymelts. Oxy? Oxymels. Mels yeah. Yeah so it's like Latin for acid and honey so So the acid being vinegar and honey, and then plus botanicals. And these were sort of drunk by the ancient Greeks as a way to preserve the medicinal properties of botanicals.

17:02So yeah, they were always sort of available. And that was like the perfect base, a really light bulb moment to sort of realise that actually we could do this. What I didn't have was any data around how long they'd last for because they hadn't been done before on a sort of large scale. So then I started playing around with various botanicals. But I mean, you know, vinegar was like an amazing, it is like an amazing ingredient. It is like, it's been like using preservation forever. It also sort of comes from alcohol. All vinegar starts its life off as alcohol first. So it has all this like amazing, like, extraction qualities that like you get from alcohol.

17:42And I mean, I guess like the main challenge I see in the non-alcoholic category is that alcohol whole isn't it's incredible like it brings body like mouthfeel it has extraction qualities it is like the ultimate preservative and without that it's impossible it really is impossible so like you have to find like a robust base or use preservatives and i think like just going back to your question around kind of hedonism and where that comes in i think for me what makes the bativo story different was that where where it was born from was a sort of world of hedonism which are these sort of opulent parties and people wanted to have something like delicious and powerful and that's where it was born and i think you know the the kind of issue from it with my brand hat on with with the non-alcoholic category is that um it's all about moderation right and actually we're not a moderation brand we're a pleasure brand and we always bang on about that like internally right um and hedonism is a really big part of that you know we don't believe that hedonism just means staying up till 8 a.m and smashing loads of drugs actually hedonism can be going to like you know having a delicious carrot in like a restaurant and it's really crispy and like it smells amazing and it's that really indulgent sort of hedonistic moment around you know experiences and i think reading a book like in a park with a coffee is hedonistic i think the definition of like yeah hedonism is like so tied to just getting off your nut like i don't think it's i don't think it's that i think you're right it's it's those those small moments which is kind of where what i kind of put my hat on is is this yellow hour right or the golden hour or whatever it was it's definitely very it's that that kind of that indulgent moment i want to go just back to these sort of lavish parties because i think this is where my curiosity is going but like because i think i think perfection is like a thousand things done very well and i think you guys are doing a lot like loads and loads of things that are kind of all incrementally adding up but at these um at these because i i'm reading the book by the founder of four seasons fucking interesting and he basically goes into how they differentiated the hotel so canadian guy and he was he was like we can't be the most opulent hotel we can't be to begin with right obviously now it is so he goes what we're gonna do is just do the service like unparalleled service like think of every small thing that when it adds up it creates this kind of lavish experience and if these kind of lavish parties were the kind of the birthplace of the brand were there any like interesting things or like things that's kind of sparked curiosity of like oh shit that's how that's how they do that do you know what i mean in terms of when you're at these parties um in terms of what though in terms of like is like the little things that add up do you know what i mean like at the wedding what was was there like did they do something special for the guests did they how did you pour the drinks detail though isn't it i mean yeah i think like you know in terms of like our drinks themselves like people often ask us to make like simple drinks like margaritas and you know we're making like we make them amazing but people generally book us to make like something different and like especially in the events world i guess it's very difficult to have a brand presence because you're it might be someone's wedding or a corporate party like there's no you can't plaster your brand everywhere so like the way that we would stand out would be by making an interesting drink and people would sort of taste and stop and talk about because there was an ingredient that you know they weren't expecting i think like learnings from that with bativo bativo is also a very unusual flavor yes so unusual people talk about it because of its sort of strange i mean i mean like i mean like the story like the reason why it became a thing was because you know sam created it for these parties and then people kept coming up and being like, where do I buy this bucket of delicious drink?

21:25And that's when you bottled it, right? And that's in the old brand. And it was a sort of a cottage industry. But that's, you know... When you say cottage industry... It was more like a sort of side hustle. I mean, I knew that I wanted to spend all my time on Bativo, but, you know, I had like another business to run and I was actively looking for a business partner and eventually did in Mexico City. So let's go to, yeah, let's go to 3am at a wedding, Mexico City. What's the first thing you say to each other? I think it was Jaffi was not a Bativo I think it was Jaffi on there I mean it just comes on out like fucking Bativo yeah hire me hire me well the back story is is that Bativo had been around for a couple of months but it was in an old it was in like a wine bottle it was quite a serious beautiful brand and I tried at a friend's house as a consumer so my entry point into Bativo was actually as a consumer and going back the whole headness thing and where that came from a lot of that came from the brand strategy and us being like you know Sam's the artisan and I'm quite a hedonist actually just in general in life and I love brands that have this tension between something attention and I think I did exactly and I so I thought like you know what I found so interesting was that when I tried this liquid for the first time in the old branding I was obsessed with it I was drinking it every day like I'm I'm a boozer I would never normally interact with an alcoholic category at that point and I just couldn't believe that me as someone who was quite sort of pleasure seeking like could just love it so much but the brand at the time or the bottle it was in because it was you know sort of side hustle was a sort of serious bottle and it was in the wine bottle and anyway so when I met Sam at 3 a.m in you know in Mexico and I asked him sort of what he did and he was with his you know with his wife who was also at the time working on it with Sam and who was his wedding was it like how did you both it was a mutual friend from I used to live in New York and right you were like at school okay yeah so it's like you guys didn't know each other no no no no okay you're right okay yeah anyway so then i was like what do you do and and sam was like tivo and i was like oh my god i was like i've been looking for you like i'm obsessed with this liquid but i my background is brand building and i think it's a really pleasurable playful rich liquid and i want to come on board as your business partner and i really believe in it and i think this could be like next big thing please and i went home and i wrote a huge proposal yeah of where i wanted to take it and sort of begged sam to bring me on get into that proposal in a sec i think it's so interesting how you as you said you came into it trying the product first yeah yeah yeah i was speaking to mark about this morning at breakfast and he was basically saying that we were talking about why trends everyone like like talks about what's the next trend isn't it yeah well actually i think the better question to ask is what's timeless and in food and drink it's like one minute's gut health one minute's functional one minute's loads no one minute's blah blah blah like there's a the trends change so like you want to build a brand that's timeless and what is the thing that's going to stand the test of all time does the product taste unreal is it yummy it's like really simple yeah yeah it's like is it yummy like fucking hell and i think it's so interesting is and what mark was saying is i'd pick a brand the brand you can sort like the brand's actually the easy bit yeah there's so many people get the brand right but the product wrong yeah it's actually if you invert and say the product's unreal you can get an agency you can you can raise money and get an agency but also the brand has to connected to the liquid and i think for sure but but but i think what i think what we're touching on here is like a real principle which is is the product that but as you said the it's the inside outside job of like the brand works so well but because when i drink it it's like the it's almost those illustrations are like kind of dancing on my taste buds you know what i mean um but it has but it has to kind of work that way around but so so then so you meet at this wedding and imma you're like right i'm gonna go and write this plan done brand building shit for ages you've got this amazing product uh sam uh lavish parties the full shebang what specifically what do you what's the opening sentence in that in that proposal like how how do you structure it so i think that could really help um i i think it's so easy to to actually kind of conceive something in your head but actually when you have to write it down and say this is where this is how this we're going to bring this petivo baby into the world i mean i think there's a few things first of all it was like i am the last person to enter this category or that was likely to enter it and i'm obsessed with your liquid so i'm like i need to be part of this i think this liquid and the taste is something really special i need to be part of it and then from a sort of brand point of view for me um you know what makes you know betivo really really different is that it's a really pleasurable really rich really hedonistic liquid right and i think the brand at the time was quite serious and worthy as was actually most things at the time in the non-alcoholic what year is this this is like two years ago two and a half years ago even then it like things were either like really craft and serious and kind of health or they were really flavored fun and kind of cheap right soft drinks versus health drinks versus kind of mimic drinks of things that existed out there um and where the massive white space was from a category point of view was something that's super super craft and i mean handmade takes a year to make no flavorings no preservatives not craft because you put it on the bottle but truly takes a year to make um and then something that was really playful and um pleasurable and you know brought this kind of joie de vivre kind of approach to life to it well sure what's that word you know just like grabbing life by the horns and yeah yeah yeah like almost like our kind of banquet scene sort of has on the label and the whole world and i just felt like is that label linked to the lavish parties that kind of that i mean it could be i mean it's interesting i think it's interesting that you picked up on like hedonism being at the crux of it because actually that was something we constructed when we built the brand but you're absolutely right in that it's in the dna of it because it was made for lavish opulent places and you know for lavish opulent because that's what that's what i'm trying to get to understand is because it's so unusual how you can't reverse engineer something that unusual so it almost like it's like but but now it makes sense if it is at these weird unusual lavish it's unusual lavish the the two words I'd pick up as I drink it.

27:31Okay, that makes sense if it starts at this, you get a brief, kind of a weird brief. It's not a brief you're going to get from a Diageo or a R &D department with a million quid. That's how you get a product that's genuinely unique. Exactly, and that's kind of what I meant at the beginning when I said, for me, it's a really unique and authentic story of how it began because it wasn't, oh, I can't drink. I need to make a drink to fit this whole or whatever. you know and it wasn't Diageo saying we need NPD it was literally I make a delicious drink for these people everyone loves it I need to like bottle it and I think that and then you know people just love it because it's so delicious and that that kind of evolved into something and so for me it feels like a really authentic like story which I really believe in and which is very like you know very easy for our team to talk about because they all kind of feel it it's not you know it's not an opportunity everyone's trying to exploit it's just everyone bloody loves it yeah and once everyone to drink it and really feels passionate about it and then so on that doc or that kind of uh you know alex smith the strategy guy he's been on the podcast he talks about like a strategy is you can hide behind powerpoint slides and they're basically superfluous gump that you present to people but it's actually if you write a strategy document as in type out like in almost like an prose way it just it cuts out all the whiff in your thinking that's the right way of saying it probably shouldn't say that diageo but like you know what i mean is is it so what were you writing down in her in terms of like this is how we take this lavish opulent hedonistic bevy to i mean there's kind of four areas to it that i always would tell a story around a brand about and there's four i guess tensions that you need to play to when you want to create a brand that has longevity and that is really resonant and the first one is what's the cultural tension that it's playing to you know what is going on and why do you have longevity in terms of where culture is heading.

29:24The second thing is what's going on in the category and what kind of white spaces or what tensions can you rub up against. The third one is who's your consumer? What makes them different? And the fourth one is what makes your brand and your product, like what's in its DNA? What can you do that no one else can do? And I sort of took those four elements. And for Bativo, what that was was in culture it was... So sorry to show you this. So the tension, just to find the tension specifically. So I'll talk you through it. So basically, for example, in culture, the tension was life is fucking shit, basically.

29:55Yeah. At the moment, like, you know, no one can buy houses. Like, COVID's going on. The economy is going to shit. Like, everything feels really heavy and really overwhelming. And yet then what drinks in the category, what people to then do is, oh, then also, by the way, moderate and don't drink. So life's rubbish anyway. And I'm now going to come to you and I'm going to say, also, you can't drink anymore and you can't do this. And this is, no, you can't do that. No, you can't do this. and so the cultural tension was actually well for real feels really heavy so we're going to play a role in culture which is really delightful and pleasurable and light that was kind of that fed into it yeah and the tension in terms of the category was at the time and you know i think even now to be honest so with the category sorry so just so you're looking at the alcohol were you looking at i'm looking at anything which doesn't have alcohol in it so i'm looking at soft drinks looking at health drinks i'm looking at um okay not not just kind of the aperitivo vibe no no no You weren't looking at seed lip and fill in the blank.

30:49Yeah, that as well. But you're looking at the full shebang. The full spectrum, yeah. And you're going, what is the, you know, what's the tension here? And actually, when it came to non-alcoholic, the tension was, it's all about moderation. It's all about what you can't do. And actually, the tension that we, how we wanted to rub up against that was, we're not about moderation. We're about the opposite. We're about hedonism and pleasure. So that was kind of what fed into that. So tension one is culture. We're going to rough. Yeah. Okay. So tension one is we're going to bring delight to people when things are really rubbish.

31:18Tension number two is we're going to bring pleasure to a category that's all about holding back in moderation. And then the consumer one was actually we're not going to talk to people that are, let's say, really health conscious or are doing stuff to cut back on calories. It was actually about kind of hedonistic pleasure seekers who love food and drink, who love how things are made, who love the quality of ingredients, like foodies, effectively. yep um and actually at the time and even now i think a lot of the narratives around the non-oncolic space are like sober curious or holding back or health and actually we don't ever talk about health even though we're really healthy because our strategy is to go like really big on like pleasure and like deliciousness and foodies and we're promising them taste and an experience not um a moderation thing and the fourth one um which was less of attention actually but is the brand one is more you know what can you do authentically to tell that story which no one else can and you know we are the only brand has no flavorings or preservatives in our in our category you know in the kind of spirits category um we were the only one that took a year to make with anyone that had a maker at the heart of it um in i guess in spirits not in you know wine alternatives etc um so the reason why we could claim um you know this idea of sort of being artisanal but also being quite hedonistic was because it was an artisanal process but the liquid itself was so punchy and so powerful and strong and not watered down and it could sort of talk the talk that we were kind of promising people so that was the kind of whole strategy behind it yeah that tension thing's really interesting that alex smith has the whole thing of don't unique selling points are kind of uh not like so many people talk about features not benefits when they're kind of that you know with less less more probiotic less calories more protein it's kind of just stuff that's very conscious and it's like oh every fucker out there saying the same thing do you know what i mean it's and actually what he said and that's almost like kind of conscious unique selling points are kind of conscious but actually going deeper um is unique points of disagreement and that's where you can hit people subconsciously it's like how do you and i suppose emma your thing of saying this is that those tensions it's like what do you push against what do you disagree with someone on because that's how you find as you say that kind of white space in the category i think it's really interesting what you're saying yeah because as i would like consuming the brand looking at the brand the activations is it is not it's it's the anesthetist to that kind of moderation kind of walk down not not enjoyable delicious indulgent experience uh and that's the biggest where did you learn those four kind of tenants i worked and well i worked in sort of brand building for you know on the agency side for like years and actually that was like an iteration of that was what we were sort of taught in terms of like where to do brand positionings basically it was always like look at those four areas what were some of the brands you did i worked for like adidas like nike and diazio heineken gray goose like just a whole range so would adidas create like a um like how the adidas would have that kind of thinking with the product yes it would be like i'd work on like brand architecture stuff for example it'd be like what is the adidas master brand and then what are the sub brands and how do they all live together as a family and how do we sort of identify and you know really clarify their different personalities and how they all sit together is that there's no example of that i mean it changes literally every like two years that's yeah like when i when i did that that was i was consulting i was i was in the agency for seven years then i was consulted directly for brands for like eight years and i'd say that i probably worked on the same brands like three or four times and every time it would evolve interesting yeah because that's another thing we're talking about with mark this morning is this evolution piece of brands it's like how you have to evolve um i talk about this at what i've been writing about this like the champagne versus coco pop problem so the champagne is like kind of when you've got your early adopters and it's kind of so many founders of middle class create middle class products for middle class people middle class branding middle class price points that's great but if you want to come to the cocoa pop shopper which isn't an audi shopper it's someone who probably shops in sainsbury's um and it's it's cognizant of the price of cocoa pops right so how do you go from champagne this is niche this is mass market and i think as you said at the beginning with these lavish parties it was quite old cottage i think you said brand um and now you've kind of ballooned it into this petivo and it's like we're not we're not trying to suppress people from having fun i think that's how you move from champagne to cocoa pop in terms of um yeah sam so then you you get this document from imma yeah like what what are the what what's your perspective on it because where what i want to eventually get to today is um i think what's really interesting with you guys is it's uh it's a male female uh co-founder partnership which is kind of unique in of itself and I think I'm reading this book called The Seven Plots basically how to tell stories, really fucking interesting and there's a bit in it where he talks about the perfect balance which is between the hero and the heroine and not heroine, getting on smack heroine's the right word I think so, heroine you're making me doubt myself but I want to explore some of these things further down the line because it's a really interesting play and I think it's unique because most people I sit across haven't got this kind of unique balance and relationship but yeah, so you receive to start opening up, you receive this document by document, like what are your initial guttural thoughts?

36:50Well, I mean, I was very open to having a business partner anyway like, I think having run my own business without a business partner before it's like it's a massive undertaking and then to then have two was even bigger and Petivo, in terms of its complexity was like if it went well it'd be like a massive beast that I would definitely need some support with so I was I was I was actively looking for a business partner and and then when I received him a document I was like blown away I was like wow this is incredible and like you know marketing brands not my background and you know I'm perfectly capable of like you know running a business but in terms of like getting it out there and selling it like that's a massive a massive that was like a massive sort of problem for me that Emma and her little document or her long document absolutely solved yeah I think but I think going back to your point around like the partnership I think it's obviously like male female but I think there's also like like different energies like Sam is more of an introvert you're also like he pays much more attention to like detail which is going back to your kind of point at the beginning about you know every detail about the way that Petivo is made comes from sam right he's got like obsession with detail and excellence um well i'm a bit more sort of sort of bit more sort of extroverted and a bit more like this will be a great thing to do you know and i think having that balance is probably less about gender and more just about personality type um yeah when i say gender i don't mean it in terms of like this is purely from like the storytelling book it's not like in terms of male female in like today's kind of It's not like I'm some raging misogynist.

38:28But it's just really interesting because in the book, they go through all these fucking characters. They talk about Crocodile Dundee. They talk about Homer and the Odyssey. All these kind of basic plots in the stories. So you've got like Rags to Riches, The Quest. But one chapter is about this balance. and they talk about kind of uh everyone male and female has like so females have like a a dark male male side in stories this is not i'm not need to caveat this massively uh because i'm seeing my face yeah yeah she's going to be the best yeah yeah yeah yeah and uh and um and and males have kind of a light feminine side and in stories that is the kind of the happy ending is the resolution of of those things i'd love to know like what is more of your sort of and this is again i'm not trying to be politically correct here but what is more of your sort of um feminine side and what's more of your male side because in terms of these energies colliding i think it's quite an interesting um place to play yeah i mean i i mean i don't know if i necessarily believe in like female and male energies as much i think like i've actually always had quite a male energy that's what i mean yeah yeah um which i agree with you on that i think the category it's categorizing it's kind of myopic like it's it can flow yeah I mean I think like it's definitely uh I mean I think like it's it's it's such a tricky one I sort of I don't even know if I can separate male and feel my energy because I think like I know men are much more empathetic than me but I know men are much less empathetic than me and I think you're a very empathetic person as well but I definitely am also so like yeah yeah I mean I mean I think like maybe like a sort of stereotypical character that I have maybe that would be like more associated with women's eyes like as a as a as a Emma says I can have like a real like love and attention for like detail yeah um which obviously so many men can as well but like that would probably like my yeah that's so yeah that's so yeah because it's just because one of the things I'm I wanted to kind of I'm pulling out is this word unusual and I think a lot of it is this this juxtaposition right from the beginning the artisan and hedonist I'm trying to kind of tease these out because it's as you say you get this unusual brand this unusual product but kind of pulling out these things i think the attention to detail is really interesting is there um like what where was where did that kind of come from that i was listening to a podcast last night about this one of the questions they ask um like these big tech firms ask this question they're basically saying that in interviews people can an interview is a load of bollocks really isn't it maybe we shouldn't say that but it is kind of load of bollocks it's just like people talking about their resume or cv and he says all these one of the questions they're looking for when they hire people is higher agency people so people who basically in our terminology get shit done or like ruthlessly uh resourceful is what they're talking about and he's and one of the questions um all these tech firms ask and yc combinator use it is what were some of the weird things you did that most people didn't do as a kid because the reason that shows it kind of plays your attention immer is if you're willing to you know when you're older it's much easier to go against the grain because it's you're older you're more mature but when you're a kid to do weird things is kind of it's uh you're the weird kid in school no one wants to be the weird kid in school so i'd love to know like what were some of the weird attention to deal things for you mate you did when you were younger when you were a teenagers specifically that have then i'd love to know this too well because then you're pushing it is what i'm trying to get you a lot of what you're doing is you're looking at this and you're pushing against it well no matter how you're doing it so i'd love to know yeah what was some of the weird things i mean from like for myself i tried to like all sorts of fucking random shit like like like a kind of obsessive uh compulsive addictive hugely addictive personality so you know i just uh if i like something i'm going all in and it's but it but it would cause me to do like one minute was wakeboarding i got weirdly obsessed with wakeboarding then i wanted to set up a peanut butter cup business as a side hustle to money life which was tragic i was basically getting freddos from fucking costco and sticking them in these i love peanut butter cups yeah yeah but they were i mean it was it was i didn't i remember not selling one at this um village fair I basically had all these mum's laundry baskets full of fucking peanut butter cups I hadn't sold one and I was driving back and I was just kind of just driving just like oh fuck this and just got high on my own supply and ate about five of them but yeah I'd love to know what are the kind of the weird foibles specifically with you Sam with the attention to detail from when you're a teenager God it's a hard one to I'd have to sort of think about that but I mean I would always just be like obsessed with the same thing it would be the same thing the same thing i'm just always be obsessed with it could be like i love like art sculptures so i'd either be in like the art studio just doing that i'd do that for months or i'd be obsessively into like a new game or sport or something but like it was kind of like all or nothing going deep yeah and uh what's the like what sort of art sculptures were you doing they're pretty dodgy i can show you some pictures they were sort of they're always like some quite abstract um like what i've got to be honest i'm still quite into sort of cubist and like what's cubist like this was that like um very abstract expressionist movement with uh you know loads of sort of distorted faces with sort of sick yeah yeah yeah straight edges and it was sort of like incredible yeah and i mean i never regret anything worth doing but you know my mum's got them all mum's got them all at home that's so interesting because there's um the podcast that came out yesterday actually was uh with a guy called will store who wrote the book the science of storytelling the status game and selfie how the west became self-obsessed fucking interesting guy and he talks about this thing called the blandemic so he wrote a book with a guy he co-wrote a book with the guy who did who designed Cold Rock's Yard and he talks about this blandemic thing, he says the blandemic so blandemic is rife in brands and again, say you're looking at the category there's a tension there by pushing away it's rife, he says in three star restaurant restaurants because chefs are not trying to create food that the consumer and we'll get on to the consumer piece in a second the consumer actually likes, they are creating food to impress other chefs to gain status from other chefs so it's the same thing with architecture so this the guy he's a guy designed the new london bus right um you know like not not like today new but like a few years ago if anyone like the ones a bit like that yeah they're very at the back yeah he designed that yeah yeah fucking interesting guy but he's this guy because he's pushed against the grain all the architects um was all this minimalism in architecture and he um was kind of ostracized from that because he wasn't confining with the the way you should know i mean yeah and like these chefs as you try and not cook a thing with you know i don't know all the rages at the minute but what you know a couple of years ago it was fucking sous videing shit you know like that would gain status from the chef's world but the actual consumer doesn't give a fuck whether it's sous vide or not they want a nice piece of duck um um and that's why i think it's interesting with this cubism yeah like it's like it sounds like a really interesting push against like you're like you're you're definitely right about the sort of uh sort of you know the chefs trying to impress all the chefs like yeah like any time i was ever like making drinks it would be to sort of make something impressive not necessarily something tasty which is like something a bit weirder a bit like yeah a bit like what is that like what is that weird flavor um and yeah just got like i mean i actually actually started more like life in hospitality as a sort of training chef and i think that was probably like where my sort of attention the detail came from whereabouts were you is it called just chefing the one i'd say it well i mean i think that's probably probably a very generous way to sort of start my mind i was like you know like to start training in kitchens um which kitchens well the first one was for um actually the first and only proper kitchen was uh it was like a nightclub in the west end oh sick and uh yeah day one no idea what i was doing just sort of surrounding deep end and it was like I mean, it was intense, but I loved it.

46:57And having like, I actually ended up in that kitchen because I sort of tried out, I mean, every single job under the sun to sort of try and find the one that sort of felt right for me. And I mean, I did everything from sort of trying out in the city to property to trade shows to everything. And I finally went to hospitality and just day one loved it. And... What was it you loved about it specifically? I think it's that like, it's very like, you have a very sort of clear goal at the beginning of the day which is like in the kitchen it's like get the food ready people are coming you know make some happy customers and it's very sort of conclusive and I also love the same is true for our events as well I loved it because it was like there was a brief and it was once you wrapped up an event you have to think about it again it's sort of done and in the kitchens I just loved that sort of you might spend three hours picking spinach or you might do julienne and carrots or whatever it might be and like i just love that like repetition just like every time it's like getting better at it and like quicker yes it was there's a um because you guys were in paul ainsworth restaurant weren't you number six yeah there's a video which i just think sums up craft like the obsession with craft and i try and apply it to my my kind of addiction is writing i love writing but constantly just trying to fucking same thing but get better and better video of paul ainsworth with scallops and he's just going like that.

48:22And he literally does like 25 in a minute, whereas, you know, it's like, I mean, I've never fondled a scallop, if that's my way of saying things. But yeah, I can't say I have, but that, you know, it probably takes a normal person 10, 15, 20 minutes to get fucking scallop out and keep it all intact. Whereas he's just like a machine gun. And I think there's something about that kind of, that's the artisanal part of this equation, which is that maniacal obsession with getting things better and better and better and better. that's so interesting and then imma what were your kind of um weird how did you push against the grain as a kid well in those teenage years or did you like no yeah i was quite naughty but i um i think like i think my childhood was quite unusual in some ways because i was i was one of six kids fuck uh yeah where where about obviously the middle child everyone's like obviously anyway Anyway, I'm one of four, six, sorry.

49:17So I've got three older sisters, two little brothers. And then my parents were German and Danish, but we grew up in actually Tokyo until I was like three, and then we moved to London. Tokyo? Can you remember much of Tokyo? A little bit, but like really like, I remember like, you know, earthquake drills and, you know, that kind of stuff. Yeah. I had a bit of an identity crisis when I arrived from there, and obviously it was sort of white-haired and blue-eyed. But anyway, but my parents were German, Danish, and we spoke Danish at home, and we ate German food, and they sort of never really integrated that much, I think, into British society, if you like.

49:50Whereabouts in Britain? Were you living in London? We lived in London, yeah. And so it was a sort of very weird world where we saw, it was like Captain Fantastic almost, you know, like that film where he lives with his family in the forest. So we'd be at home, we'd speak Danish, we'd eat German food and then we'd go to school in London. And so there was a lot of identity things going on. That's the first thing. And second of all, I think when you're one of six, you basically have to do things really quickly to get like heard you've got to eat quickly to eat um you also you know i think my i've always jumped around a lot more so if i you know when i listen to sam being like i would go really deep on stuff i was probably the opposite where i would you know pick up an instrument and then get bored of it really quickly and then the same thing yeah and just do like seven or eight of them but like for like six months i was like i was like to my dad i was like i did what score of rock i was like 13 i was like i need a fucking yeah oh mate and he So he took me to the shop.

50:44I was like, mate, I'm going to see my mate. I was like, I'm getting a fucking bass guitar, son. And I literally got it, played it for one day. You know that song, like ding, ding, ding, ding, that fucking song everyone can play on the guitar and then fucked it off after a day. But yeah. Well, exactly that. And then, and I guess like, weirdly going back to, it's a bit of a tangent, but going back to your question around kind of gender. One thing that I always think is quite interesting was that I had short hair until I was 14 years old. Like, I just, I was really short. like I had like a side parting like curtain and I was a real tomboy and to the point where I'd be thrown out of girls lose whenever I went for a wee in like restaurants or like places I'd always like to have to sneak in as if I was you know because I was scared of getting in trouble and is that only like weirdly now that I've got I've got twins that are a boy and girl that I've just turned four um and weirdly it was only when I had them and I saw the way that people treated a boy and a girl like kid when I was walking down the street with them that I realized that so much of my childhood was probably shaped by the fact that people thought I was a boy and at that time which was you know 35 years ago to you know 25 years ago it meant that I wasn't gendered in a way that a lot of people were and I really took that on in my parenting you know because when I had a boy and girl and they were babies I saw the way that everyone would treat my son like hey you big lad you're gonna play you know do you're gonna like play rugger when you're older or football and then to my daughter they'd be like hey you're fragile you're fragile butterfly like oh like don't drop her you know and I just thought god like it's so interesting seeing it side by side and realizing the impact that how people treat you like when you're growing up impacts like how you grow up and what you're up to be yeah yeah yeah so then I started really messing with people so now my daughter had short I cut her hair short and I and my son I put him in dresses and to this day like they still she still has short hair he still loves wearing dresses as for and it's sort of the way that they then experienced the world was so much was so different like people were suddenly treating her like she was a mischievous little monkey she could do whatever she wanted and suddenly people were treating him with this like real softness that he never experienced when he was just a bald burly lad you know and obviously now they're older and they can do and wear what they want but it's funny how I thought back to when I had short hair and how actually there was something quite freeing in being a young girl you know 30 years ago where people didn't didn't think I was a girl yeah that's so wild I hadn't even thought of it and as I said like what it's a massive kind of preface on this it's not like the I'm not lynch pinning on to like male gender kind of stereotypes it's just using it as a place to explore no no I know I know yeah but but I think it's really interesting what you're saying about the having well a couple of things is the Danish commissioned german and tokyo link up is super interesting yeah um and then the short hair thing is as growing up you know is is and one of six is crazy so how do you think that um those those kind of lessons um would you kind of because i think obviously you've got parent your kids right there's also like a parent and leadership in your brand like how's that spilled into the way you do things we've talked about kind of the weird artisanal and hedonistic liquid brand I'd love to kind of link this even further into kind of how you're trying to lead the team like how do you do that weirdly if that makes sense or unusually I think is kind of one of the words you've said a lot I mean I think how we lead weirdly I mean I think I think like one of the things that has been very at the forefront of my mind I don't know if it's a weird thing but I do think we try to do things like really differently so I think we always ask like what's everyone else doing and how can we like surprise people by doing it the opposite right so whether say that again so as then we often will ask like what's everyone else doing and and how can you do it the opposite way and is there an opportunity in doing it like the opposite yeah and I think that's like a really good question to always ask yourself so on a really simple level you know we didn't never just wanted to do samplings we wanted to we were like okay everyone else just has a you know a tray in the supermarket and we'll get someone to taste something like how can we like actually make a an entertainment experience you know so and then that's why the kind of piano was was kind of created so i think it's about sort of always kind of questioning you know what is expected from us as a category and then what are other categories doing and what can we almost borrow from the codes of those categories and bring into a category that doesn't normally do them hence like hedonism hence pleasure hence um you know sing along like the stuff that you would normally do when you're out really shit faced with your mates like why can't an unalcoholic brand do that you know and at the London Craft Beer Festival when we did the massive sing-along and the whole of the London Craft Beer Festival started singing along that was because you know we were borrowing the codes effectively of a normal very boozy brand or environment and actually being like actually there's a role for a non-alcoholic drinks brand in this space even though it's not where you'd normally put it and so that's kind of what I mean by always trying to do the opposite and think can you actually do it that other way yes yeah yeah the opposite of a good idea is a good idea right Sutherland yeah I love that yeah the opposite of a good idea is a good idea the um and so in terms of the the Danish and the yeah German um so I don't know I've never been to um like Denmark but like I think they do there's there's a feel about those kind of brands and And I just, in my head, I kind of conjure up this image of kind of soft wood and all those sort of vibes.

56:28Maybe that's because I've read Norwegian Wood, but that book. But yeah, how has that influenced the way you kind of view things? So I think it's really interesting, this unique kind of childhood and outsider look as being created, this Bativo thing further down the line. But how has that influenced things? I mean, in many ways, I almost feel like your aesthetic's more Scandinavian than mine. I love like you're almost like never seen like a logo so that's of normal why do you why do Scandies have such a unique like what is what would you say the Scandinavian aesthetic is like I've got it in my head it's definitely like very neutral colours very low key very relaxed very simple is it like Japan a bit no no no it's very very different it's like Japan's actually quite it's actually quite opulent and like there's lots of stimulation and there's lots of lots of stuff well I think I actually just came back from spending three three weeks working from Denmark and we were in the middle of nowhere and I remember bumping into this old lady on the beach who was like 80 and my you know my partner was like well what do you guys do around here you know if one comes to these like lake houses and what's there to do what should we do with with the kids and she just goes well the whole point is you're not supposed to do anything you know she was like that's that's the whole point is that you come here and there isn't stuff to do and that allows you to reconnect with the world and with each other and with nature and I think that kind of sums up for me a lot of the sort of Scandinavian way which is you know that reflects in furniture that reflects in food like it's a very like no fuss simple if you really simplify it you can enjoy it more yeah I hadn't thought of that yes the Scandinavian furniture is so stupid but like I'm thinking of Ikea for some fucking reason I mean yeah yeah yeah that's what it says do it your fucking self um yeah what like in terms of the scandinavian food uh what's what's that like yeah what's yeah it's lots of like meatballs and um yeah lots of sort of meatballs and potatoes and lots of pickled fish yes yeah like sort of mackerel because noma's in that's in where's that covenhagen yeah covenhagen yeah yeah because that's that's what he was this wool store guy I was saying is that he went to Noma and he basically slammed Noma saying that it was everything just tasted of pipettes of vinegar yeah and that was how we kind of ended in the ended up in the the yeah we do we do yeah I do I do you know pickle stuff is pretty it's pretty delicious and I'd love to know what so in terms of the leadership point of like doing things differently and I think this tension uh the opposite of good ideas is a good idea is a principle I love it's just like links to your tensions links to uh Alex's point of disagreement how do you um get people in the team to to kind of because I I totally get from a leadership perspective as much as like this is how we want things to be done around here but actually getting people to kind of galvanize into that way of thinking is is much easier so you can't put that on a piece of paper like you did originally do you know what i mean yeah how do you do that i mean i think like to be honest i think we haven't actually done that what we have done is everyone who works at petevo is equally obsessed with it which sounds really weird as in people like everyone drinks like a bottle a weekend you know it's it's it is a brand that i think everyone really identifies with on a liquid level but also a brand level um if you see over there there's like that whole brand world there's another really conscious part of it when we created the world which started off with when I look around at I guess in particular non-alcoholic space actually what is it's a dumb question what is a brand world because a lot of people okay sorry oh yeah sorry so we've created 21 characters so if you look at that over there on the wall there is actually on the camera fingers crossed but if you look at our label even our label has I think nine characters or something but actually that's only nine of 21 that we've created and the whole idea was that was you're supposed to be able to look at that world and be like I want to be there and And this represents the personality, the vibe of Bativo.

1:00:33Who are some of those characters? Well, so this... You got names for them, or is it not that... We do have names for all of them. Oh, that's a joke. Actually, everyone who works in the company has had one named after them, apart from Sam myself. And I think Michael, not yet, because he's... Can I have a butcher's? No, a butcher's. But these are actually a lot of my mates as well, and Sam's mates. One of them is Sam's dad. But this is the genius of it. It's like, this reminds me of, you know how, how you do, this is what we're talking about Willie's Pies about, it's how you do one thing, it's how you do everything.

1:01:02So it's all the little things that actually, that's where this here is culture and leadership. And I think it almost reminds me of, you know when Steve Jobs wanted the inside of the iPhone to be a certain color? And people were like, mate, it's the inside of the fucking phone, like who cares? No one's going to see it. It was like, you need to make it this way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because the point of that is to show that it's that's how the leadership and i think the characters like no i never thought of that i just thought that's a sick design but the fact those characters is like it shows the minutiae of your detail and like yeah so i worked with um there's an amazing illustrator called ros bakova and ros bakova who's actually also a friend of mine but she has got lots of different styles but one of her styles is these amazing banquet scenes and when you see the banquet scenes you just basically want to be there partying with them so she was the obvious you know when we did the brand strategy was the obvious person to go to but interestingly just going back to the kind of company culture and sort of where that all started is you know like I feel still like the world of drinks and alcoholic drinks in particular like still talks from a brand point of view very much in sort of white hetero way what do you mean by that so that everywhere yeah just just everyone all the representation the way that speaks the language that's used still feels like very white and very hetero still in that world it hasn't so it's not reflective of like London sort of life in many ways and I'm talking about the brand not like necessarily the team they were it's something that was really on my mind and I saw a lot of the images when I was doing a lot of like competitor deep dives and I guess I was like I feel like you know this isn't going to talk to everybody and I feel like this needs to be sorry sorry sorry as in your competitors weren't speaking to everyone yeah I felt like I feel like actually could work harder to actually sort of you know have different representations within the brand itself and actually when we did the characters anyone you were looking at specifically or uh just no i think it's just johnson i think everyone okay yeah yeah like if you look at the sort of the language and the imagery and the photography use it still feels very much like that world and anyway so when we built the characters actually brief words we want to have different sexes different ages different races different sizes different genders etc so if you look at our characters as 21 that there's the representations of every single person and the idea is that everyone should be able to look at it and be like that person's like me or someone that I know is like that person um and so the kind of wider world is like really sort of kooky and sort of mad but also has all these different kind of representations in it that hopefully people can relate to and and that kind of again is quite reflective of what we as a brand want you know the idea behind Bativo is not to create division like this is non-alcoholic drink this is an alcoholic drink you can drink Bativo with booze like it's like one in four of our customers drink it with alcohol right yeah i can imagine it being unreal it's a little tipple of yes with it but i mean anything anything but but i guess the point is is that the dream with lucky saint you know i told you yeah market that was unreal that was actually fucking delicious yeah i don't know that's still on there but i guess i guess the dream is that you know the dream isn't that you know tivo is just an alcoholic drink on on a dinner table the dream is that it's on the table everyone's drinking it some people are popping it in a negroni some people are drinking it in our signature with soda some people are putting a bit in their tequila soda but no one cares because everyone is united around this brand that you know they feel proud to drink and so all that division that you normally see in the category isn't there what have been the um like obstacles with that because i think it's really interesting it's it takes consumers and a flight of imagination i think you're picking the harder route which is very admirable to say we're an alcohol-free brand but we're not and we're not going to position ourselves like this Mark was saying this morning at LA Brewery the kombucha brand yeah he was saying that we don't want to fucking banging so good we don't want to be a kombucha brand because we're trying to kind of tap into the alternative wine occasion that's kind of I don't know if you've seen it they've got it in the champagne bottles it's unreal yeah yes that's my favourite do you know Louise she's I've only spoken to on LinkedIn doing but that drink with the rhubarb one oh it's so delicious she's amazing i've got a lot of time for her she's actually around this way actually but the um but what he was saying is is we know it's the right path to take because it's like we want to we don't want to be thought of as kombucha we want to thought as a sparkling wine alternative a bit like you plonking that down the table and say look it's party time even though it's not fucking we're not boozing what have been the challenges of of again pushing against that tension where whether it's speaking to a buyer because mark was saying you speak to a buyer and go look well we're not kombucha we're alcohol free wine alternative and then the buyer goes well i'm not that buyer go and speak you know there's they're taking the harder route doesn't it comes with obstacles that's why it is the harder route i mean i think my answer probably different from sam's if i sort of because yours yours is more familiar from drinks point of view but yeah i think there's been a few kind of key things i think first of all there's there's an immediate knee jerk i think when when we just we just closed the big investment round and there's sometimes an immediate knee jerk from people being like oh but what are you like if you try to be everything you're nothing and i'm very very aware with my brand hat on that that is not what we want to be so our strategy is always to be a non-alcoholic drink for the first the second the third touch and then we don't what do you mean but sorry so the first so if you go to our website we know like it's all like we're a non-alcoholic aperitif if you go to our instagram it is but once someone's bought into our product yeah they'll get a newsletter on the third touch which says by the way have you tried this in booze um and so people have already sorry booze oh sorry i was thinking fuck me no no as have you put sun cream and ant repellent and then back up back above the TV as in like we don't we don't want to confuse people by like immediately bombarding them with loads of messages the idea is they buy into it they drink it's an alcoholic drink and then they discover once they've really bought into how delicious and powerful it is as a liquid that they can also use it in booze and that and that's how we get around it like we'll never try for our like restaurants as well like yeah exactly we always go into like a batibo soda and then just slowly introduce them to some of our alcoholic serves yes exactly it's incredible like you know when some of these restaurants are putting together like really delicious complex alcoholic drinks with batibo yeah and you know the rate of sales better well I think to Sam's point around rate of sale, I think the elephant in the room always with non-alcoholic drinks is that the rate of sale will always be lower than it is for alcoholic counterparts.

1:07:30So I think when we were raising investment, one of the big challenges was, oh, but it's still only 2 % of the whole market is non-alcoholic. Yes, there's lots of hype around how non-alcoholic is growing, but the rate of sale is still much lower. and I think what interests people and what we really believe about the Tivo is that it can be drunk in all these different ways. It's relevant in all these different occasions and I pop it in a tequila soda whenever, like every weekend because it's so delicious. Yeah. And I think what that... It's just like, I don't listen to the umami. I'm not some sort of flavour Donny here but is that a umami where it's like that kind of...

1:08:07I don't know what it is. What is it? What makes it so delicious, Sam? I don't know, I always say like... And also how did you, in your head, like you talked about this kind of culturism not culturism the what's it called sculpture sculpturing like how did you sculpture the the pairings for this drink in your head like so i mean i think like i think like in in cooking like chefs are generally like pairing like um what is it sort of salt with like fat and acid because um and whereas whereas like it was like in drinks like you're generally sort of balancing that sweet with acidity and bitterness yeah so and you know your your bitterness can come from anything like in drink making it could be angostura or any other sort of cocktail bitters it could be an aperitif or an amaro and the sweetness can come from anything from honey to sugar to like jam you know whatever you want like a liqueur and the acidity can be anything from citrus to any other kind of acid or vinegar so that was like that that sort of that sort of base existed anyway and and I guess like thinking about the flavor like I always wanted it to be like an aperitif inspired drink and uh I mean it was just playing around with anything I mean I mean I think that I I kind of decided on on it being vinegar and honey, just because of the sort of self-preserving qualities.

1:09:40How do you get all the delicious? Because when I drink with TiVo, it's like there's so many different parts of the taste experience. How did you divide them all? That was just like trial and error. My wife and I just had hundreds of jars in our home for months. We had some at different temperatures. we had some i mean literally everywhere our place like stank of vinegar and botanicals it was it was so when you were you got this brief kind of just trying to work this back because you got this brief saying we want this um kind of unique drink that's not boozy yeah what were the other um not like brand names but what were some of the other concoctions on the cutting room floor like that didn't make it well i mean or was it always the vinegar honey it was it was i mean because like because I wanted that sort of you know having to make something every time is sort of time consuming and like you like it would have some kind of shelf life but I didn't know how much um but I mean I thought like like like for that particular brief it was always going to be vinegar and honey I mean like it could have been like a fermented version you know when we when I was trying it out you know we tried fermenting it we tried using distillates and and the best the best taste by far was just and also and also like also flavorings right because like we kind of you kind of decided yeah i mean the whole kind of tasting you tried it out and realized that you can't get that with flavorings i paid like you know an annoying amount of money to various consultants to sort of you know i was like look i've made this drink like i want to manufacture it you know my background's not manufacturing how how do i do this and every single person was like flavorings and I was like no like that's you pushing against attention again isn't it yeah I mean I mean you know I actually did end up buying myself a micro prepare and some scales that measured down to some 0.001 of a gram and thought that I'll take their advice obviously like you know there's obviously a reason why everyone's saying this and just did like just sort of started layering flavors on top of our base and you know it was fine but you would never to get that sort of flavor journey that you do with real ingredients and you know once I sort of made that decision I don't have to figure out where to do it how to do it and uh yeah and like you know we do bang on about like no flavorings well you know that side of it and the craft a lot and you know I think people don't understand how different that makes the taste experience so I always wang on about that kind of metaphor of you know you buy chicken stock in the supermarket and it's delicious and it's fine but if you make it overnight with herbs in it and it sits in your slow cooker like that taste experience of that chicken stock is going to be a completely different taste experience and that's the way that i think about vitivo when i try to explain it to people is you know sam tried it with flavorings but that's the chicken stock in the supermarket we're the we're the we're the homemade homemade stuff i also think i also think doing the hard the hard is an unfair advantage because if you pick something that's really hard it's it automatically means when 10 other people try it then nine of them will fuck it off because it's hard so i think there's something in there's definitely something in picking the harder route in everything i want to talk about ollie lloyd um because he's he's an investor isn't he yeah yeah let's make sure that's still still yeah yeah he gave me the look of like oh he's fucking done a runner or something he lives he lives he lives down here so i was like how can you see him on the way no no no so he's um he's been on this podcast and he's great he's a legend a legend legend we love we love so supportive we went to that well we went for lunch at that um paradise restaurant you know in soho paradise because his wife's sri lankan yeah yeah the dude was fucking banging unreal yeah their jobs are great too yeah he's been so helpful but he one thing he talks about in the podcast because he's um super interesting guys he's got all the brand stuff obviously um and but he talks about his obsession with art and history of art i don't don't know if he's ever talked to you about this but he's he he did a history of art degree i think where he went really deep into art and i was like what's the advantage of having and he loves painting and i was like what's the advantage of painting and having that kind of going to art galleries like how does that give you an advantage when you when you go and try and sell something at a bar or a supermarket shelf and he talked about having this eye just this this this kind of lucid kind of laser eye to just to spot things and when I'm looking at this the the illustration and the the art on on the bottle and um we're going to get into that but this this um he has this thing called the knock knock test and he said he learned at Unilever it's like when a brand uh knocks on the door like what's the what's the thing gonna what's what's it gonna say and I'd love to know like you've got this kind of uh bacchanalia kind of uh fun thing going on the bottle like a party kind of vibe what if we were to kind of bring that alive like what would be the bativo like perfect party if you were to parachute consumer in there like where is it what does it look like what are the smells what are the colors like I mean when we when we talk about the brand um vibe and that kind of world it's it's quite it's very theatrical i think that's kind of one of the things that we really wanted to kind of convey hence kind of the style of it hence like the big yellow piano and sampling hence uh you know whatever we do the language we use so we obviously you know we have things like the yellow we use a lot of language of like setting the stage or or the next act is like you're going for the next act with bitivo and where did that come from that theatrical well what was all about developing a tone of voice that feels really in line with it so you'll notice that like you know for example recently we've changed it from it was slow sipping botanicals when it first when the rebrand first kicked in which was a year and a half ago and that was on purpose because sam myself didn't want to kind of pigeonhole bativa into something but then we realized that actually slow sipping and this kind of mad theatrical world that we created there was a sort of disconnect so now it's called a big sipping botanical aperitivo And the idea is that we just really focused in on developing what that tone of voice was from a brand.

1:15:58And if it was this hedonistic, pleasure-seeking tone of voice, then that needs to be reflected in everything. And so that's when we landed on this tone of voice that feels very theatrical and sort of over-the-top and sort of performative in many ways. And the idea is it kind of brings you on this journey and you're kind of escaping into this delicious world of Bativik. Yes. no I just what I love is this William Chase guided Tyrells and he sold Chase this theory onto Diageo and this is what I was every conversation I have that he basically there's no rules to build a brand there's obviously like blueprints and shit but there are absolutely no rules and that's why even though I'm talking about the same thing to like kind of to every single person I'm having it's a completely different conversation because there's there's no way to do it and obviously this whole like you know we're talking about kind of the lavish parties but then this kind of thinking almost like a a theater and like thinking of like setting the stage it all just makes and that's like kind of kind of this carousing event on the on the on the on the bottle it's just so interesting but yeah what would what would be the bativo party if you were to kind of bring that bring that alive and the reason i asked is you know i asked trip if um seth godin it's kind of a very brandy question but it's like if your brand was a hotel what would it look like and it just brings the brand alive i'm like if this party was an actual fucking thing that we're going to do tonight, where would it be?

1:17:18What country? How does it look? I'm interested to see what you're, you've got a different one for me. Yeah, you go first. Yeah, I know, Glenn. I hope a lot of that takes a bit. I'll go first and I'll get kicked under the table. I think that for me... Travel on gin, stoke it. Make it glamorous. Yeah. I think it'd be sort of, I'm sort of picturing a sort of like jazz style bar, like loads of live instruments. Oh, yes. You know, people from every walks of life, sort of almost a smoky hazy bar oh yes um i think yeah that's that's kind of what i'm picturing mate that's really good because that's very close to where i was going as well but which we talk about a lot because it is you know we talk about when we do brand when we're going to do brand events what that would look like and i think again we always talk about what we aren't compared to everyone else and so another one that we talk about a lot is like we're actually quite urban in terms of the setting of the tv so yes it's obviously made in lanark farm but in terms of the world and like where like a lot of other brands in our category are all about health or about the outdoors or about the mountains or about gardens and actually when we think about the kind of what party world which petevo set in it's probably house parties it's like jazz um like you said like you guys with different walks of life it's it's like london it's not um it's not it's not the it's not the countryside it's london and so i think that that is the kind of key thing for us hence why we wanted to have these characters that represent every walk of life because that's what london's about for us so it is a you know it's made in harpershire but it's got a spirit of london yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah the interesting nuances and i said there's no rules is again it's just kind of links to what the book i read in the seven seven basic plots and it basically says it's kind of these principles of storytelling and i've picked up on it when you said like we think like a theater and almost going into it in fact that is the kind of setting the stage the you know all those little things tell that story for the consumer so that when they end up you know i suppose the kind of the culmination of this is the piano at say taste of london is that theatrical vibe are you guys like into theater and jazz like is that like where did that you probably are a bit more than me well i mean i don't pretend to be that guy should i am not into theater i'd go the opposite i do what are you into i love theatricalness of the theater but i my attention span is not long enough to go to a theatre.

1:19:35I think my partner loves it and I sort of often leave at half time because I'm... I can't sit there. Yeah, I just can't sit there. But I think we probably have similar energies in that sense. Like, you know, you're a bit more patient than me, so you probably do really... I mean, I can't. I mean, having I got two kids, I haven't nipped out of the theatre much. Nipped out of the theatre and get some milk on the way back. You can't pay for a baby set that time in the theatre. It's like 300 quid. But was that intentional in the brand play you know yeah yeah as in a theatricalness it was intentional in terms of tone of voice like how do we make it feel like really energetic really big like a kind of theatrical world that entertains people but also that people want to be part of they can see themselves in um yeah like drinks are they're an experience right and actually the brand used to be an experience as well and i always bang on about this but i think one of the challenges with the non-alcoholic category in particular is that what makes a great brand are stories right and it's quite hard in a category that was born so recently and which has that kind of lack of maker stories it's quite hard to tell authentic stories so I think what what really differentiates Pateevo in my mind and one of the reasons why I was drawn to it so much when I stumbled you know upon it was that there's so many stories in it there's Sam who makes it on Lanark Farm there's a place you know there's a person behind it there's a process where it takes a year to make you know it's you can actually take people to the farm where it's made and we can show them and and you know and then it's got you know this it's got a founder that is a maker but also a founder who's a real head in this and there's so many stories around it which which other brands lack currently i think because it's so new yeah i was thinking like you know like the other end of the spectrum which is like the ultimate sort of craft product is like wine like that's like a globally followed loved drink and i always think about it like you know like i mean in order to make wine you've got to have this incredible understanding of like process and technique from like growing your vines to like picking the grapes at the right time pressing them fermenting them and then deciding on whether you want to age them in oak or stainless steel or clay and that i mean it's such a process and people love the nuances of wine like oh yeah bang on about the sort of the terroir yeah or how long the grapes are terroir is like the ground yeah yeah exactly that's a nice wanky way of saying it right exactly yeah yeah yeah i mean like wine is i guess like that but i mean but i mean like what i'm saying is like it's like imagine a world where wine was made with flavorings can you imagine people sitting around the table and discussing the different levels of oak flavoring or tannins that have been put into the drink i think i think that's kind of that's kind of what I meant it was that like what makes people care emotionally about brands I guess is a better way of putting it is stories or things that they can get behind right and I think yes you can drink something but if there's not a story you can attach your child to whether that's how it's made or the brand world or the character in it then people don't care about it as much they'll kind of jump between different brands and sort of be quite you know flippant as to what they're engaging with well and I think within the nile quality category because it's often made in fragrance house or it's quite new people don't have that emotional um attachment to it um and it's the stories that that creates that attachment the uh the story thing's really interesting it's like the best story wins is this really interesting book and um this we believe what we want to believe right so this yeah i was talking about this the other day so like you know when you do a workout and you feel fucked and like you've got tar like not tar on your mouth but like you don't that feeling where you're just like i've just absolutely ruined like came to say 5k like pb right you're the story you you feel like that because and it's okay to feel like that because the story you're telling yourself is that i've just pushed myself super super hard and like i'm actually enjoying this feeling so i've pushed myself super super hard that feeling when like every you're sweating all that shit if that was to happen to us right now we'd be like what the fuck it's because we haven't got the story wrapped around it yeah yeah it's the context yes all the context and the framing and the storytelling and um i think it's really interesting with the with this with the space you're playing playing in like in terms of the framing and the storytelling and with the um the illustration i was talking to this about um this is why i think it's interesting with what ollie said is um is i was always i was obsessed with i can't i have to take this out but basically i did a podcast with the yard sale pizza and i had to fuck it they didn't want it going live for fucking so long um but um we're talking about illustration and food and drink like why is illustration so inextricably intertwined with food and drink like you see like noble rot you know the wine restaurant loads of illustration um pringles illustration like i mean there's a myriad of different like food and drink this illustration art is linked to that and um i started looking into it loads i was like why the fuck why is these two things linked together and um stephen pinko's like the he's like a um evolutionary fucking guy whatever he talks about this the cheesecake principle right basically what the cheesecake principle is strawberry cheesecake principle is we like from an evolutionary perspective we get we became adaptive to looking for food which is like bright in colors and um and kind of primes our taste buds so it was pet berries and stuff to be like this is going to help us survive from from a really basic human level and he basically says that illustration art and food and music does the same thing it's basically priming our priming our senses this is going to be this is a this is a good thing this is a good thing this is going to help us be better and then from a brand perspective like the illustrations of promise and i think that that promise is like this is going to taste delicious this is going to taste unusual and i think it's really interesting how brands can do that through illustration and then the the the drink delivers that promise and um yeah i just think what you guys have done with that bottle is just is is that strawberry cheesecake principle it's like that that like getting people um i love that i love priming priming people for what's about to be um almost the anesthetist to us sat here being like oh my god we've just done a 5k but we haven't it's it's the like oh this is going to be a delicious experience no i like i like that what What was the, so with the characters, what was, like, how did you come up with the 21 specifically?

1:26:02So actually, so there was a few characters that Roz had used in her other artwork that I sort of, we were like, we love those ones and we love the vibe. And then we, you know, we sat together and wanted to, as I said, like create characters that represented like, you know, the different, you know, like London and what it is today in 2023, which is when it was made. so you know we wanted to have you know an old person who an older person who was really vibrant and youthful so in fact two of them so there's like there's a character in there which is my favorite one is actually called daisy and it's an old lady who's just like having that like living her best life and she's sitting on a chair it's on the main world yeah she's just like drinking glass of wine and she's just like doesn't give a shit and she's just like living her best life and she's not like this old lady that's normally represented in the media is gray haired and boring she's like vibrant and you know hilarious and just you can see that she's having a laugh we've got uh and she's actually having a laugh with um that's actually rupert this is maybe after your dad she could be my mom and dad minus the one there's a guy in a wheelchair and then they're both just having a massive chin wag and they're just having a laugh and it's yeah yeah trying to you know people are sort of presented a certain way in culture and it was taking that and and flipping on its head you know like when i'm 60 i'm not going to be an old lady with a with a walking stick i'm going to be that lady yeah so it's like how do we start representing people as they actually are in 2023 um so yeah it was like that and we had a pregnant lady and again she's called in the world she's called cas who's actually named after cas who's my friend who's the founder of proper corn and she's pregnant but the point she's called like the ceo in like the brand world and the idea is that you know she's this pregnant woman in the brand world but she's a boss she's she's a she's never seen someone like you've basically created your own little play yeah like theatrical play not in terms of this world i've never really spoken someone who's gone into that level of depth yeah yeah there's so much depth depth but like yeah it makes sense now what like why you're having this kind of well we didn't we didn't want the pregnant lady to be the pregnant lady we wanted her to be the boss of the CEO of a company because that's not how normally pregnant people are portrayed so that's that's her character the other thing i think i've read somewhere on linkedin that you said um that you you do these consumer survey thingies they're not critical consumer survey thingies but um like because i think we were talking about how your main consumer is kind of east london 25 35 i think that's what you wrote but like how are you that's what people perceive or i don't know what what the point was but how do you um so like well how are you going to get this is your party with various characters that's almost champagne like coca pop how this goes big how you get this and i know it's london centric now but to build a house our brand it needs to be work outside london and or in different cities like how are you one keeping the soul of this yeah bacchanalia and party point one point two is how are you using the customer surveys to kind of unlock more customer segments and then how do you go yeah i mean i mean the so i'm like i really believe in going out and talking to consumers and finding out who they are and actually what I wrote about on LinkedIn was sort of the opposite which was people assume I think that oh is that what you said sorry yeah well as in people assume that our consumer is like this 25 to like 40 year old like London consumer and actually when we kind of do lots of work I can try and understand who they are those are who would that is those are the people that are drinking us out in restaurants and out in bars that's true but when you look at our Shopify data it's actually like 55 plus mostly sort of women that are drinking like betivo in in the home which is totally not what you'd expect from the way the brand presents and the way it talks and for me that's because we purposely have never done a segmentation in terms of like age um profiling because hence you know why the old person in our world isn't like a classic old person we've we've framed it we've we've made it all around attitudinal it's like people who love life people who are pleasure seekers people who love how things are made people who are culturally curious and that's not an age thing that's a mindset yes the whole thing of like psychographics versus demographics exactly so many people look at demographics i think now more than ever and i was thinking this is that you don't really see old people as much anymore as in like you know before like someone hit 60 and they're like the color is now because of like people caring more about their health as you said him and when you're 60 you're not going to be kind of on a walking stick no no no one no one is the way the media like the media portrays it's like that older demographic is kind of neglected by challenger brands we we obsess over how do we target gen z on tiktok well look up mate because the older consumer has way more money they've got more time to spend and look at pleasurable things but i think people look at the demographic through a demographic lens you're like oh we need to be focused on the next generation gen z whereas if you look at it through a psychographic lens which basically means you know a 20 year old six year old and 70 year old they're very similar if they're all into like at meatopia for example this weekend the meat festival yeah like you'll get the whole smorgasbord of different age groups but they're all the same psychographics that you can actually speak the same as i think when you look at it through a demographic lens you start just alienating massive customers i.e your 55 year old um people yeah 100 100%, like, you know, I just feel like when people start being like, we are actually for a 25-year-old person who shops in this place and does this, then they're missing a trick because, you know, I still feel like I'm 20 and I'm 40.

1:31:33You know, like, so if someone was to put me in a box and be like, this is what a 40-year-old's like who's a mom or two, you know, I definitely would not be talked to. I definitely wouldn't connect with it, right? Because that's not, you know, I've done those segmentation pieces. When I was on the agency side, I saw how people were put in boxes by brands. And I know for sure that I would never have related to any of them. What is the other load of bollocks you found at agencies that you just don't think is right for challenger brands? And then point one, point two is what do you think is actually really valuable?

1:32:02I mean, I think like I worked in the strategy and sort of research part of it. And I think the one like I think understanding like attitudinal elements and stuff is really, really important. and understanding how people see your brand and the impressions they get when they see it straight away, that's something you can only do through going to Strange and being like, what are you thinking of? What are your impressions? Where it doesn't, the bit that I sort of didn't think agency, where it doesn't work is when you're asking everyday consumers to try and evolve a brand creatively. It stifles creativity.

1:32:35So there were so many big brands who'd come up, when agency would come up with an amazing ad and they'd go and be like, go and talk to consumers about it. and you'd go and talk to them and they'd be like oh i don't like the hat that guy's wearing or like oh that makes me feel a bit weird and they would like kill an amazing creative ad because an everyday consumer was like trying to tweak it with their creative knowledge and it's like no you like do mass market kind of consumer yeah and you'd be like just leave that stuff to geniuses like there's a reason why creative directors and ad agencies are genius you know are creating amazing content it's because they think in a different way from joe bloggers isn't it yeah yeah exactly because that for me is like the biggest thing is you know just trust agencies to that there are some amazing minds in those places and don't they don't don't ask people to yeah it's one of those like weird things that's both wrong and right isn't it it's like you need to speak to your core consumers because if you don't you don't want to know what you're creating but then if you speak to too many consumers you get the curse of average where joe blog says i don't like that yellow yeah that gorgeous yellow top but if you speak to the kind of the the archetypal characters that are on this party they're going to give you the right feedback and i think it's like it's one of those things that's wrong and right if you don't speak to your consumers and you're just like yeah i'm doing it my way then that's just kind of like stupid you just speak to them to understand who they are and like they're a music brand to your brand but you shouldn't speak to them to develop like creative for your you know for it i don't think because i think that that magic can only come from like people who are not like me people who actually are creative directors who who who have been like honing their craft for like 20 years 10 years five years what have been some of the uh really like kind of hard days for you sam like in terms of just getting well even with the other business as well like getting i think there's an element of grit and kind of just yeah grit is the word to get uh the ball moving or the snowball rolling do you know what I mean in those early days I mean I guess like just sort of having that sort of obsession with like trying to make this work and going against the advice we were getting and then it was like okay if you're going to do that how are you going to do that and you know we ended up having to convert a milking parlour into our now unit and like again milking parlour yeah so like cows get milk where cows get milk yeah that's a joke yeah we call it milking parlour Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:34:57I know, so rich, right? So old school, I love it. Milking parlor. Yeah, the milking parlor. That's hilarious. I mean, it was just sort of, it was just sort of, I didn't know anything about manufacturing or like how to build a production line or anything. And it was just sort of, it was just sort of this like relentless belief that I needed to put Batiba in a bottle and start selling it. That, you know, man, I had to put my little like builder's hat on or like just research cap on. I mean, thankfully for me, I actually have a, my father-in-law is, he's, I mean, he has a sort of engineering brain and he, you know, whether it's sort of making pastry at home or curing bacon under the stairs, like he just will figure out how to do anything.

1:35:39So I sort of had him as my sort of sidekick. What were some of the things he kind of, how did he help shape the production design? Well, I think it was just sort of, just trying to work out the best production flow. So, I mean, I have to say, if we, if I knew now what I needed to know then, I probably wouldn't have moved into the milking parlour. Just because... Milking parlour's got to conjure up, like, really romantic. I know, I imagine, like, fuck some ladies. Yeah, yeah, yeah. With little, like, buckets, like, milking them by that. Just turn the milking parlour into my production line. Yeah, I mean, it's, I mean, it isn't that glamorous.