Dropped By Arsenal at 15, Stoicism & Manifestation, Exiting The Tumeric Co. - Thomas "Hal" Robson-Kanu

0:00Thomas Robson-Kanu:So that ball comes into you and it's... Yeah. Like high performance, high pressure, like that's all an industry, right? Because I lived in a state of pain. I was told that I would never, never, ever play without pain. And to hear that as a teenager, it's like, what? So that same habituation, you know, which cigarettes and which alcohol drove into consumerism, how do we begin to drive that from a healthy perspective and drive healthy habits into society? If you're looking to achieve success, if you're looking to win the Premier League, you're going to need to invest. If we went into an economic disaster, Tottenham might be the one of eight clubs who get through that.

0:39Thomas Robson-Kanu:It is a level of discipline that the typical fan, the typical punter watching the game would never be able to conceive in their mind. It is a ruthless industry, it's not normal. But it is the most boring profession you could ever think of. Really? Cool. Three, two, one, go. Let's have some fun. Thomas, thanks so much for doing this, mate. Yeah, super, super excited. What I would love to start with is one of my favourite books of all time is called The Obstacle is the Way by Ryan Holiday. It's a book about applying stoicism to life, turning adversity into opportunity. I feel like after doing some exploration of your backstory with the turmeric co it feels like you had more adversity than most people would understand from first glance the two ACL injuries the being dropped from Arsenal at 15 I think I read somewhere you were crying yourself to sleep at night at 16 to 17 years old 16 17 years old take me into that period of your life at such a young formative age to go through that adversity what did that feel like and then what are the principles you use to sort of turn adversity into obstacle sorry obstacles into opportunities today yeah good good question to kick things off really nice um yeah so I think um when when you look at society in general and um you know i've got kids now um and you you basically don't realize that adversity and um suffering is actually really important in terms of your development um and that's both you know from a psychological perspective from a resilience perspective like The only way that you can genuinely overcome challenges is if you have faced that level of restriction and that level of barrier to progress before.

2:45Thomas Robson-Kanu:And, you know, that's why when you talk about stoicism, it's almost like you're trying to like precondition the mind into how you would actually approach adversity. but the reality is until you face it you don't really know how you're going to get through it and even when you are facing it like it's only once you've come through a true adversity that you realize that actually you know all is mine and you know you can actually overcome a lot of the challenges that you perceive as challenges um simply via perseverance and through maintaining a level of faith and a level of knowing you know it's always difficult with these types of things because you always end up going down into you know you sort of get pigeoned into whether it's you know religious religion or a you know practice that you should therefore follow it's like well no it's actually just you know being content and having an internal knowledge that the path that you are on is right for you and so yeah so to sort of answer your question I think that that initial um you know framing it in that way where actually the world that we live in prevents a lot of people from experiencing true adversity and pain simply because you know you you want to you know you want to give a good life to those who are around you and you know you want to you know you don't want to see suffering you don't want to see pain you know why would you but actually it's an important part to forming your character and being able to you know understand what is truly of purpose in the world and therefore in your life so yeah so I think me personally I was able to go through adversity at that moment in time because I had a clear vision and a clear want you know a clear you know need like I wanted it's gonna say like how because at such a tender age of like 14 15 I'm not I saw fucking skateboarding I mean like how did you have unwavering self-belief in when the waves of self-doubt and adversity were coming through because i feel like most kids i think you even said on a podcast like out of everyone in that arsenal group you were with i think one other than you made it like what were you what was different in your nut versus those other kids because you had more adversity like what were you when you're crying you wake up in the morning you look at yourself in the mirror what are you saying to yourself because i think this will help a lot of people yeah so so firstly it's not unwavering like you are wave you are you are constantly in doubt so you are so it's it's always easy when you achieve something and when you look back and you're like oh yeah you know I was so tough during that period I was just able to get through it and it's like well no there was constant self-doubt constant uncertainty constant unknowing but the the challenge that you have to overcome is how do you live within that?

5:46Thomas Robson-Kanu:You know, so actually you're all of a sudden you're like, oh yeah, you know, came through those two injuries, came through being released by Arsenal, came through nearly getting released by Reading because simply couldn't get fit and managed to find a blend which completely changed my life and changed my perception on, you know, nutrition, health and wellness, you know, all the way down to the root core of pharmaceuticals and actually why are we living in pain today in this day and age well actually do we need to like in my opinion no we don't and I think there are solutions out there but it's like if you wind all of that back you go back to um actually it's not about overcoming it's about like like becoming within that state so you are accept you you have a level of acceptance of the complete uncertainty and the complete opportunity for failure at any given time and so that is the hardest place to live in because sorry so it's like almost like it's almost like surrendering surrendering to the to the fragility and the self-doubt but still taking action yeah yeah essentially like it's being willing to like accept that you are not in control yeah and that um what you're looking to achieve and what you are you know dreaming and aspiring of of completing like may never come to fruition but are you still going to be willing to wake up and take that step forward again and so i think that's like when i look back now why was i able to overcome what i was able to overcome and look a lot of people overcome a lot lot worse than what i had gone through but actually you know what I was going through was a traumatic experience did scar me you know to my core in you know real pivotal parts of a child's upbringing and so when I look back now it's like yeah it is the fact that I was just willing to continue to persevere and be within that state you know that state of uncertainty that state of unknowing that ultimately allowed me the opportunity to eventually come through it and would you say that's that the that's in a parallel world in business it's the same thing um yeah I would say in in all states of adversity and that's my point like where um in in the world that we live in today like adversity is um you know it's almost like shunned it's like it's like hidden away from your your it's almost like we're scared of adversity we're scared of challenge we're scared of confrontation we're scared of pain and it's like, well, no, like these are, when you're experiencing those types of things, like they are genuinely formative experiences, which help shape you to create a better future and a better environment and outcome.

8:43Thomas Robson-Kanu:And I think for me, that's why I look back now and I'm so passionate about what we're doing with the turmeric co because I lived in a state of pain. I was told that I would never, never, ever play without pain. I was always going to live with pain. And to hear that as a teenager, it's like, what? Like, what is going? It's insane, you know? And so that drove me to finding a solution of natural nutrition, like food as genuine medicine. You know, it's better than medicine because you don't get the side effects, right? So then that for me is why, again, I'm so passionate about what we're doing because actually do we need to live in a state of physical pain when there are preventative measures out there.

9:24Thomas Robson-Kanu:So yeah, I think if you're able to go through circumstances and persevere through situations, then typically on the other side, you tend to experience some form of value, which you can then decide to take forward or not. What would be, because Chris Williamson's a podcast I love, he's got this thing called 2D versus 3D lessons. So 2D lessons are something you could read it in a book, right? but until you actually go through it in a 3D situation, i.e., you know, so whether it is a breaking, an injury or heartbreak, like you can't, if you've been with someone that you've loved and you've gone through heartbreak, you can't, no matter how many fucking books you read about, until you actually experience it and it's sort of baked into your soul, can you actually extract any of the lessons?

10:09What are some of the positive lessons you've taken from adversity?

10:15Thomas Robson-Kanu:From adversity, I would say, yeah, Yeah, I would say similar to what I've covered there, like being willing to sit with yourself. I think a lot of people don't like adversity or challenge.

10:35Thomas Robson-Kanu:Factually, we are as a civilization, we do not like change. So that's like a fact, right? Because change basically creates the unknown and the unknown basically creates risk. And when you begin to go back to, you know, survival, that increase in risk was actually a risk to life. So we're like innately conditioned to not like change, right? So I think, but the only thing that you can guarantee in the world and in someone's life is change. so therefore it's like how do you how do you begin to like psychologically prepare yourself for living in a state of constant change now that doesn't mean that you're constantly you know fucking shit up and trying to like cause a storm all at a time but it's like saying well look like actually I'm willing to accept change at any given time in every any given um circumstance and be willing to persevere and accept it and then develop off the back of it because that's ultimately how you evolve.

11:42Thomas Robson-Kanu:So evolution, again, is driven by change of environment, change of outcome, change of... So then when you begin to wind all of that back, you kind of begin to realize that actually change is a really important aspect of life. So how you approach change ultimately begins to dictate the outcome you get from change. and if change is happening all of the time then you could almost argue that actually that outcome is the outcome of your life so if you're what's the good good way to approach change what's a bad way to approach change so good way well the good way to approach change is like in a state of gratitude in a state of acceptance in a state of um you know abundance it's like for every for every messed up situation there is always an element of opportunity within that always and it's just whether or not you within the state that you're in are able to or willing to see that the way that you shouldn't approach change is from a sense of lack from a sense of fear from a sense of insecurity because all of a sudden now you are essentially pre-programming yourself to prepare for all of that yeah as an outcome of it yeah so yeah so i think like um for me personally like the experiences that i went through it was really around how do you always identify and be accepting of change but also like really leverage that to almost be a catalyst for opportunity and a catalyst for success and so yeah like but from a very very young age like I would almost approach every single state of adversity as a massive massive opportunity and that's just something that it's a beautiful beautiful way of putting it but I think the nuance that I've got from you mate is is is the is actually the kind of the anti-steicism thing which is certain I think the issue with styrsism is it makes you think you shouldn't feel these things it's like you should you know anything any obstacle that happens to you just be like this single-minded like you know unwavering thing like you know it's like feel all that things accept it but still move forward and still be open to the opportunity within that i love that want to talk about um you said the i think it was like the all culture starts from the top i think you're talking about john mcdaisky is it a day skit at Reading?

14:19I'm a Spurs fan. And so after seeing yesterday's shit show, he got demolished by Arsenal 4-1. The stuff happening with Daniel Levy. And then equally, you know, pulling this to Wales, like Welsh rugby at the minute is kind of in an interesting state where they used to be one of the, you want them to be competing. What have you learned from being in various cultures at various clubs from top down, insights from the top down is the first part that question and then uh how do you implement them at turmeric co like some of those principles

14:53Thomas Robson-Kanu:or lessons from sort of stadia to boardroom yeah yeah um really interesting i think firstly there are nuances that you'll never know so it's like we always have like a perspective on every situation you know you mentioned you know North London Derby Arsenal 4-1 versus Spurs right it's like your perspective on that is from a lens of a fan who's passionate about you know Spurs who's probably followed them you know since as young as you can remember and so when when we have our perspectives on any situation like you basically narrow you narrow the ability to see it in its complete form or like in a complete holistic manner sure and so like why I'm saying that to start things off is because there are nuances involved in the decision making at Spurs which is why the club is in the position that is today you know so they may have for a period of time tried to drive profit into the business and that focus on profit might have limited the opportunity for them to invest into the club invest into the team invest into success but actually that focus has actually allowed the club to be relatively self-sufficient so they are now stable so actually if in five or six or ten years time we were going we went into a you know economic disaster Tottenham might be the one the one of seven or eight clubs who get through that right Right.

16:37Thomas Robson-Kanu:So it's like it's just I think when when and why I'm saying this is like in every single organization has this these nuances and decisions which are made for both good and bad, which not everyone can see all of the time. so I think really understanding so my point is is in a football club like if you were to judge a football club you would really need to understand like every nuance involved in that football club for the last you know decade at a minimum you know to really understand like where is it today why is it in the state that it currently is but also then what are the opportunities for it to be in a different state or in a progressive state in the future.

17:23Thomas Robson-Kanu:And so, but my point is with those nuances, like typically they are always driven from the top down. So it's always typically the owners who are pulling the strings and making the decisions of the direction of the club, the nuances around the decisions made and ultimately the outcome that that club has. So one thing for me, like having stepped outside of football now over the last few years, like looking in completely impartial, like it is glaring to see when a club is successful or not successful as to why, you know? And it is always because the ownership of that club have made a conscious decision to be successful.

18:06What do you mean by conscious decision to be successful?

18:08Thomas Robson-Kanu:As in surely every club in the Premier League is trying to be consciously, trying to be successful. Like what's the difference between someone in like 18th versus like sixth in the league. Like, do you know what I'm saying? Do you see what I'm trying to say? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, but again, that person, that club who's 18th versus the club who's sick, that club who's 18th, where did they come from? Okay, yeah. They may have been in, you know, League One five years ago. Yeah. You know, there's great, great examples. Writing or something like that. You know, fantastic. Brentford, you know. Another example is, you know, on the charge now Wrexham.

18:44Thomas Robson-Kanu:Like, brilliant. Like, Hollywood story, yes. but they made a conscious decision to be successful. And so what I mean by that is there was a clear level of intent, which was coupled with the resource to do so, to get there. So you have to, if you're willing, if you're looking to achieve success, if you're looking to win the Premier League, like you're going to need to invest into the infrastructure of that club, into the squad of that club, into the first team of that club to compete at any given level. And a great example is obviously Manchester City. When Manchester City first were taken over, they didn't immediately gain success, but what they did, they restructured the entire back end of the club.

19:30Thomas Robson-Kanu:They invested it into the facilities, into the back room, into the training ground, into their scouting system, into their recruitment process. into that. So they did all of that investment into the back end. And once that was in place, they then began to invest into the front end, the Kevin De Bruyne's, the Vincent company. So all of a sudden, so my point was, is if you were at Manchester City at that moment in time, when they began to make that investment, that decision into success, you would have been like, oh yeah, this feels different. This is different. And again, another example right now is Newcastle although they've not had a great level of immediate success they are a club who are now being invested in heavily like they are showing levels of intent to be successful right and so other you can then use that vice versa of clubs who maybe have been successful and then maybe have taken their foot off the gap and they they and and they're not necessarily making a conscious decision to be successful they may be relying on their laurels resting on their laurels they're relying on the existing club to take them forward for the next few years like it's it's it's the intention intention and nuance piece which is super interesting so they're all from the top down because as you said on i like sort of that zooming out 10 000 feet of perspectives like every club where they are now is through if you go through the weeds there's a lot of nuanced decision making when applying this to murico and brand building what how how have you as a from top down in real intention from the beginning and building those foundations how have you thought about cultivating that not like i mean culture one two like sort of systems and anything you've taken sort of from training that apply to business because i think they are you know transferable that first and then second like what are some of those hard nuanced decisions that have got you to where you know to because you guys did you exited to a what's this place called um yeah so we have um significant investors in the business.

21:37Thomas Robson-Kanu:AG Bar, yeah. To get you to this stage, what is that? Maybe start with the intention, then we can go on to the nuance. Yeah, so with the Tiritco, everything that we do is about the customer. So it's about the life transformations that our product range has on any person who consumes this range over time. So what that looks like is, well, actually, it's the impact our range has on the customer's health. And therefore, first and foremost, the product is everything. And so that's quite different to a lot of FMCG, you know, startup CPG brands, because they'll talk to you about, you know, like focusing in on, you know, what's the category?

22:25Thomas Robson-Kanu:What's the consumer? Like, what's the consumer demographic that you're targeting? Like what's the brand? What's the messaging? What's, you know, so you do all of that brand building, but the product is very much tertiary, right? It's like, it's almost like, well, that product will come. Yeah, it will come because for the most, for the majority of CPGs, like they're effectively delivering me to products anyway. There's very little differentiation between the product that they bring to market versus other products that are on the shelf or other products that are in the category. And so for us, it was very much around how do we bring that same high quality, functional, clinically backed turmeric blend that I was using at home by my father to market.

23:10Thomas Robson-Kanu:And so we invested heavily in terms of product and we were able to basically implement a process where we could scale our product process, that same quality, even improve the quality where at periods of times when we could. and by delivering that consistency and that uniqueness you know we went as far to trademark specific processes trademark specific blends that we put into our range you know our biomax uptake blend our liposomal um you know um lipoterm uptake mix all of these were like us thinking like well this is very different to just a me too you know shot that you can get from a pret or a you know and s you know and it's it's fine like these are all really important because they're building the category and awareness of functional but actually ours was around the life transformations that our range could could have um that was your sort of say that's your top that's your north star right at the beginning and then everything sort of yeah so life transformation so we're here we're here to change people's lives and then therefore it was like well how do we how do we do that so basically through the product.

24:17Thomas Robson-Kanu:So product quality, product efficacy, product availability, price point. So we needed to invest heavily in terms of scale, being able to produce a high quality product at a high level without any restrictions, without any shortages. And then, yeah, after that, it was around how do we begin to get our product into people's hands where they are at a point where they're ready to accept an alternative to, you know, maybe standard routines or, you know, sort of standard medication, you know. And so when you think about, say, for example, you have, everyone has habits in the world, right? But in consumer, you know, consumer goods, you have habits which are driven by, say, cigarettes and alcohol, as an example, right?

25:03Thomas Robson-Kanu:So our mission and what we're doing with the Terminko is how do we actually begin to create healthy habits? So that same habituation, that same culture, which cigarettes and which, you know, which cigarettes and which alcohol drove into consumerism. How do we begin to drive that from a healthy perspective and drive healthy habits into society? And so that was a big, big portion of, you know, what is constantly a big, big focus of ours. and then as you begin to lay all of that into that sort of objective it's like well how do you begin to drive differentiation so then it was the clinical research so we invested into clinical research you know we have a lead research scientist we have a dietician we have a um a nutritionist so building that out you know we've published five clinical studies on our range so far like i don't know any i don't know many pharmaceutical you know brands you know like supplement brands that have done that, let alone, you know, sort of natural functional shop based brands, right?

26:04Thomas Robson-Kanu:And so that became a big, big focus of ours. And again, allowed us to begin to differentiate the difference of us versus the sort of standard products on the market. And then from there, it was like, yeah, it was like, how do we now get the product into as many people's hands as possible? So we had to take all of that messaging, all of that journey, and begin to basically win shelf space from sort of the standard products on the category and drive our message and our brand into those locations. And we've done that through building a relatively strong direct-to-consumer model through subscription-based offerings.

26:46Thomas Robson-Kanu:And yeah, so that's been the nonstop journey of building what we're building. And my point around the intention, Like we are, we are, we have intent to be successful and success for us is the number of life transformations that we create in the world. It's the intention thing is so fascinating. I was just in Nashville in America interviewing a guy called Will Goddard, amazing book actually, called Unreasonable Hospitality. And it's how he took this restaurant in New York called 11 Madison Park from 50th to best in the world. and it's like it's ultimately it's like as much as a book about restaurants it's actually a book about leadership and um you know and and and his whole thing is in total intention and he says culture is when you give uh language to intention that's what culture is in his opinion it's like when you have this intention you give it language that equals culture and it's fascinating like really getting into this intention thing.

27:51What was the intention? So when you were like prepping for a big game, what did you learn about intention in, you know, the week going up to a game? So I think that could be, looking at that cross section could be really fascinating. Yeah, I think, yeah, you realise as an elite athlete,

28:10Thomas Robson-Kanu:you realise that all is truly mind. So you can think things and it can become. so so you have you you have an opportunity in in an environment where you can basically test that out and see if it's true and and you can be you can find the result relatively quickly and so that shifts your mindset completely because then you begin to realize like the power of your mind you know and we are so we're so locked in existing bubbles and infrastructures where we perceive that our environment impacts our internal state when it's actually our internal state which impacts our environment and so that that whole methodology that whole approach to mind is still something which for me, I genuinely don't know why that isn't taught in schools, you know, because it is fact.

29:12They have psychologists in these clubs who are teaching this stuff? No. No, interesting. Unfortunately not. No, no, no. That would be pretty cool.

29:20Thomas Robson-Kanu:They should do, 100%. But I would say beyond elite sport, like this is approach to life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I would say it's not about elite sport. this is about kids in the playground. Like what are they, when they are in their most creative state, when they are in a state of abundance, a state of love, like they are creating their worlds. And for whatever reason, because there's obviously reasons out there, as you grow and as you get older and as you move into the infrastructure of the world that we live in, these begin to get chopped away and you begin to get, you know, almost like stunted.

29:57Oh mate, this is my biggest thing is this like yeah we do these we do these talks about creativity for going to brands yeah and it's like uh it will start with the industrial revolution is that when that once that happened we started moving the education the edge of real school education system came out the industrial revolution in the sort of late 1700s early early victorian age and we were basically training kids to be factory workers and it's like if i've got little cousins like they they fucking play lego like they play and then as soon as you go through the school system you'll sort of just come out and you hear these people go, I'm not creative.

30:30And I'm like, well, did you play Lego? Did you go outside and run around the garden? Well, then you're creative. Do you know what I mean? It's so interesting. I find out how it's, how does creativity, because you were saying it's all of mind or mind of all or whatever it was. Let's talk about that goal. Because I think in the 2016, was it semifinals or? Yeah, quarterfinals. Quarterfinals. So that ball comes into you and it's, and I'll get it up on the screen for people watching on YouTube, but essentially, is it Ramsey who crosses the ball into you? And it's this, you know, like two or three players around you.

31:06It's like, is that, would you say that energy is coming from, say, intent, instinct, creativity? Like, what is going on in that? If we were to try and slow down that moment, micro slow it down, like, where is that all coming from, do you believe?

31:23Thomas Robson-Kanu:Yeah. It's quite a deep question, sorry, but I think it's interesting. Yeah, no, it is really interesting. But you'd also see like any performers playing at their highest level of performance and giving their highest level of performance are in that state. And it's been, you know, there's different approaches to it. And there's obviously like flow state and that's been sort of like, you know, sort of coined and it's like, yeah, get into your flow state. But it's a bit, I struggle with these. I struggle with as they try and put things into a box and describe. it because it's more than that. And it's also, it's not one thing, you know, it's a multitude of various different factors.

32:03Thomas Robson-Kanu:So in that instance, that is a complete state of freedom where at that moment in time, everyone in, on the pitch, every one of my teammates, every one of the coaching staff, everyone watching the television was saying, okay, well now it's time to set that ball off to you know it was Neil Taylor who was running into space and so that's where even the opposition are telling me it's now time to lay that ball off that's why there was so much momentum going in one direction but because I was in a state of freedom a state of creativity like you said that ability to play my decision was actually well no I think there's space this way so I'm gonna basically make a decision to shift my body weight, do a turn, which everyone else was not expecting.

32:59Thomas Robson-Kanu:And that's what created the space that allowed me to score that goal, which then, you know, sort of became a viral sensation, a moment in time for my career, for our nation as Wales and, you know, for the home nations in that tournament, it was a very special moment. So, yeah I think that ability to when you're performing you are in a state of freedom and that again sort of ties back to what I was originally earlier you know trying to describe and explain in around you know when you're in a state of freedom like you are very much accepting of what you're where you are and regardless of whether you're facing adversity or whether you're you know facing triumph or in that state like just being you know just being is is is the key but how how does high pressure equal freedom would you say yeah so and again i think this is really fascinating because again high pressure has definitely been coined in terms of high pressure high performance you know it's almost like oh you need to get into a state of high performance and high pressure and it's like well okay yes um there are moments in time when you will experience that But actually, it's that ability to really understand that.

34:14Thomas Robson-Kanu:What is it that you're trying to achieve? What are you trying to do? Because in any form of high pressure or high performance moment, you're typically trying to do something. And therefore, when you have a level of high pressure or high performance around that, again, you're creating this preconceived perception, which might be perceived, You know, it might be a real life, you know, a penalty in the last minute of a FA Cup final, right? That is a real moment which is happening. But when you begin to break it down, you are kicking a ball against a opponent inside of a box to try and get it into a net.

35:00Thomas Robson-Kanu:so my point here is that regardless of any high performance high pressure moment you you basically to to deliver high performance it's basically maintaining a focus on what it is that you're actually there to do wow i mean this will help so many people with you know who go into a tesco's pitch or go into an investors meeting because a lot of bulk of our audience are brand you know builders and stuff but i think it is we i used to work for a peanut butter brand called manny life don't know if you've seen those guys and the sales director at the time goes we're just selling peanut butter and it would just take away all the pressure the pressure of like we need to what's the rate of sale doing you know all these things that kind of out your control but actually one of the ways to sort of just stock calm the ship was like we're just selling peanut butter and it just kind of made everything you know we're just trying to put a ball we're in a box trying to put the ball in this you know square thing or square like rectangle thing hit it back yeah interesting it's fucking interesting man so but then so then and then it begins to you begin to break down the layers and the preconceived ideas and and i think a lot look like high performance high pressure like that's all an industry right and and to be like it's what I mean by it's an industry is it has been built into an industry like people if I can coach you on how to be a high performer and drive results every single day and lead a team and drive like there's a commercialization element to it right so it makes sense that therefore that has been commoditized to a degree but my point there is it is all of that is all just noise.

36:49Thomas Robson-Kanu:It's always, it always falls back to the fundamentals of what you're doing. And the fundamentals of what you're doing, there may be a blueprint for doing it. So there may be a way as an example to enter into a sales meeting with a Tesco's buyer and you're selling peanut butter, there may be a really good blueprint for you to follow, right? So if there is, then great. So just do that. So just focus on the fundamentals. But on the flip side, there also may not be a blueprint, which means that actually you have to, you know, cultivate some level of creativity. We get back to that state of, you know, being free.

37:28Thomas Robson-Kanu:So you may need to be creative in that moment. But regardless of either way, there is never a right and never a wrong. it's mad so like the way i prep massive interviews right oh like when i started out like and because i'm now i've done it six years i've got i've got lots of experience right but but initially i would do so much prep right which is kind of your blueprint thing but then i found if i was in the present in being in the moment like i'm with you now with an interview that if i'm looking at my notes it kind of is taking away from my freedom and my intuition and my instinct so now i don't i like i will prep but then i'll just let it happen and i feel like it's that's something I've learned and this applies to anything so even when we're going to go and sell sponsorship on this podcast now I won't even have a sales deck so it feels I wouldn't go on a first date with an iPad do you enjoy so it's good and I love the idea of like you know being really following a blueprint if it's there but also giving yourself the freedom just to be in that space you know yeah yeah so so no completely and I think to that point around like high performance is like so so whenever you're thinking about performing or creating something or drive like it's just like what are the fundamentals like what needs to be true for it to happen like if you can understand that then that is typically like 95 percent of the work that you need to do and then everything around that is either noise or might you know amplify or detract from the outcome to a degree.

39:02Thomas Robson-Kanu:So actually just focus on the fundamentals all of the time. Yeah. All of the time. Who was like one of the most underrated players you played with? Underrated players, I would say, I'd probably say Joe Allen. I'd say like at one point in time, he was up there with the best players in the world. Like unbelievable, incredible. Like he could have played, he would have made the Barcelona team better which had you know Xavier Iniesta and Busquets in it yeah mad and then who was who was probably the least naturally gifted who had to work harder um I'd probably say myself really I'd probably say and and look that was as a pre-15 I was very talented you know I was my my limitation was my physicality yeah so I I was a late developer so I was the smallest in the squad didn't have any muscle as a 15 year old and so um you know i was always on the verge of sort of england and international youths um relatively skillful and you know great left foot and all this great stuff but then obviously got released because i was too small and wasn't physically strong enough and then went through two and a half years of surgery which completely changed the way that i played and so yeah like I from that moment in time like I was always facing an uphill battle to just get to a point of stasis a point of parity of where I sort of felt like so what were you doing extra so you line up 100 academy players like what were you doing extra what was how are you prepping different to do that extra work I'd probably flip down the other side I'd say what wasn't I doing an extra interesting yeah so i was the first one at the training round last one to leave um i would so i hear when people say that i'm just asking somebody i'm just i'm following my curiosity so when they say that so when you say first in last out does that mean you're basically shooting more goals like what you actually do when they when people say that i don't understand it's a great question yeah great question so typically um well for me what i was doing when I was first one in I would get in from around 6, 6.15 and the only person who was there before me was Steve Koppel who was the first team manager at the time.