Espresso: Giles Brook, innocent Grocery Negotiation Secrets

0:06you know what was the one of the best things about innocent was and it was partly cost but also it wasn't just costs it's because we you know innocent ones doing things a certain way 60 70 % of the training programs were developed internally and deliver over people internally so as well as doing your job so for example i used to take the negotiations training and i wasn't just it wasn't just a sales team guess what procurement team the guys in finance and stuff because these guys speak with people the whole time so you know other companies were only training training up sales team in negotiation you're like well hang on a minute your ops team are spending millions on fruit every year you know on this yeah thinking like that and it's um yeah innocent was a great ground for just creating that entrepreneurial kind of spirit and just you know that that endeavor and yeah for me for a lot of people innocent was a platform that is a stepping stone for people to go and do their own thing a lot of people have and what what's what's also a massive um positive indictment so not and diamond a positive reflection of the business is there are so many people who i worked with 15 years ago still in there so you know it's absolutely crazy and you know the coo who was fd at the time james who's a job james davenport is a great guy he's still there 15 years later i know we talked about it previously but you would teach teaching the negotiation course on or training at black black my way through it yeah don't worry what would you say again and this is i asked this you know um i'm such a people pleaser that when it comes to negotiating i just want i kind of want the deal done do you know what i mean and it's something i'm having to work chip away at but what would you say are your kind of big principles i know we talked kind of talked about it earlier of negotiation that you think and this is i think everything can life's negotiation this isn't just about selling your brand to a supermarket this is about getting off a parking ticket you know what i mean like it could be anything yeah i mean there's loads there's loads are principles right the most important thing for me is ask questions to understand what the other side truly wants that's the most important thing because if unless and it's the quality of those questions you want to ask the questions that get you to the bottom understanding about what that person really needs because only then do you truly know how you can then fulfill those needs and try and secure your negotiation and i think the other really important thing as well is just be really clear about the nature of negotiation because it's like if you're speaking with the buyer at boots or you're buying a car from an open dealership you've got two different things going on there right the dealership you can afford to walk away right and that's it and it's more transactional whether you like it or not you know you'll try and sell you every extra possible on the car or whatever you'll end up with this ridiculous spoiler that you don't can't believe it's cost that much but you've got to have it but fundamentally with boots you're probably most startup businesses and brands probably have to have three to five success three to five failures on negotiations before they then get in there right or else three to five pitches before they can get and get then get in there and you just got to do everything you can because the negotiation doesn't isn't necessarily just trying to agree a listing or price it's about how you approach it and you know i even remember one and the guys are innocent remember this we had a buyer at boots and she was ferocious and she just hated us and we weren't sure why on the end we just sent her some flowers and just said look we think we've upset you we don't know why or how but i'm really sorry within an hour oh sorry i don't really can you come in tomorrow i didn't want to come across in that way and it just changed the dynamic of the relationship straight away right and i think you know knowing that other side of the fence but the other thing as well is when you are in a negotiation it's just being really clear on your parameters and what your true is what you call like your you know what is that walk away and i gave you an example earlier about the gross margins and stuff like that you know don't be the person in the meeting who just gets over excited and i've just got the tesco's listing but actually i wasn't prepared or i hadn't really really understood the numbers shit we're only making 10 on that you know that let's just say as i said to you before 20 gross margin minimum and that could equate to a£5.20 case price.

4:14If that buyer says it's got to be£5 or nothing, be prepared to walk away. Because it's not the£5.20 walk away position. You're trying to get away£5.50, but you know that's not going to happen. £5.20 is your walk away, but the buyer says £5. Don't do it. Quick one, guys. Espresso's got a brand new sponsor, Unleashed. Unleashed is inventory management software that talks directly to your finance and econ software. We use Unleashed daily at Ireland's. I bloody love it. We've got our admin time in half saving approximately 30k a year why use it save money save headaches save stress get granular clarity on your margins no way your stock is don't miss availability look your favorite brands literally use unleashed as their backbone candy kittens tiny rebel trick always religiously look there's a link in the show notes please feel free to book a call with josh and his wonderful sales team at unleashed they're amazing even nothing comes of it and even better news you'll get your first month free if you reference hungry thank you there's a lot a lot of this is kind of this and again this dichotomy of like the heart and the head and the ego yeah and i think you're so right and to be honest if someone with us sat across the tesco's by and they're like i probably would just do it because you know um but it but it's what you're saying giles is amazing in terms of the pricing of do you think brands should say they're i mean let's just say for argument's sake uh their the cost price they want to sell in in that is 150 because i've had it before where you sell in at the price yeah and then they whittle you down back to the gm and then you get so blinded by the listing like you want the listing so you just kind of do it i've done this and then you actually go in you're like right i've got promotes i'm lost making on promotion do you think brand should give themselves a bit of wiggle room or how do you think i know that's again the scenario you just played there the biggest advice i'd give is don't commit in that meeting i would be saying right tell me what you can give me so be really clear to say right so look we've established what your needs are i think i can fill these needs through here because it's like somebody saying oh they're going to give me three lines um but they want 45 margin i'm like right okay what does that three lines mean where's it being merchandise more importantly how many stores is it going in because if it's three lines in 200 stores versus three lines in a thousand stores that's gonna should should result in a different case price right so get all the information together before you start because the classic is let's just say you've got you know scenario you just played out there or whatever so somebody says all right three lines yeah gonna go in um we've got 500 stores and it's 45 margin i need a five pound case price yeah okay we'll agree to that brilliant cool just so you know as well i need six promotions each of those got three thousand pound shelf ticket fee oh and also um i need a twenty thousand pound marketing oh no hang on sorry i can't work all our money's in the five pound case price i can't give you any well no sorry i need that as well now so it's really important get all the information and get know exactly what everything that person wants first and then go back never been you know it's very unusual but some you know very few buyers will make you say in a room right i need an answer here now it's more a case of you know going back get one in facts clarify what you need to know get the commitments as you can that you can for the buyer and then put an all-inclusive and it's that classic you know if you if you know i always start with if you can give me x y and z then i can give you this yeah start with what you need first and then tell them what you give because if you start with i can give you this great that's fine oh no no i haven't told you what i need first you know what i mean there's just some subtleties and how you do it what are the other subtleties subtleties or nuances i think in negotiation because i love i love going down that nuanced path uh what are the subtleties i mean look i mean how you perhaps how you act and how you behave is important right i mean there's everything from hostile which we've all been in before um you know i've all say you had the classics where you've had the kind of bad cop good cop combo coming in you had some of met i had such a funny couple at asda when we used to deal with the fresh produce we had the buyer and the senior buyer and those two were just comedy going in and seeing those guys and how it was like laurel and hardy so funny how i used to work um what other subtleties would i say um i don't know i think the biggest thing for me is just think about longevity relationships oh yeah i love that longevity relationships it's important thing because and yeah and then probably one of the biggest messages i give everybody is because i often hear and I get quite angry about it is that I'll hear people like slagging off certain retailers or customers going a nightmare to deal with got so hard they don't understand it I said the real reality is in virtually all of these FMCG startups I know most of those guys wouldn't have a business without a supermarket right and those guys supermarkets I know they're difficult to deal with but also they've got a job to do right and so most supermarkets aren't doing that well either so they are under a huge amount of pressure under the pump yeah but don't be so derogatory and rude about them or the buyers because they're trying to do the best job for their own company but also without them most of you wouldn't have a business so i get quite when i when people end up you know making kind of strong statements you know about about supermarkets or against the buyers or not a supermarket but the national retailers how they behave i think you gotta be a bit careful because a lot of people are indebted to them in terms of innocent you talked about on our last podcast john wright would make any footsie 100 ceo look average which i thought was was brilliant um and maybe this goes back into the innocent water and what you've said about the negotiation by the way is amazing will help so many people thank you so so much for listening it honestly means the world to me i hope you enjoyed your morning coffee and go and have an amazing day let's be having ya if you want the full episode it will be in the show notes and it will be in the show notes the full episode thank you so much please stay friends as well it means a lot to me