From Homeless Drug Addict To Multi Million Bakery Empire - The Bread Ahead Story

51:46Were you partying in Ibiza as well? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I've got a few. Yeah, partying, that's not partying. I wasn't partying at all. It was just like, for me, I was in hell. Really? You know. What, describe hell? Well, it's the massive difference between, you know, social drinking or social partying and social drug taking to just pure self-destruction, total, total self-destruction. It's a completely different thing. You know, and I was the latter. It was nothing to do with fun. Do you know why you were doing it? No. Do you like to ask that? It was just... Crazy thing, I know. I don't know.

52:34Yeah. I really don't know. I think just a stupid habit. And I... But what I do know is, I mean, the common thing that us addicts have is I can't have one. And if I just stay away from that one, it's easy. Yeah. It's easy. It's just really bloody simple. Just don't have the one. Yeah. And it's, look, there is probably no science to this. There's no secret to it. It's just almost like an allergy. If I touch it, if I literally just touch it, I'm fucked. literally everything I have now, everything, my business, my, you know, I have a big business. Yeah. I would lose everything in a week. Yeah. It literally, it is the sword of Damocles and it is right there.

53:18Fucking hell. It is literally right there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I, I often have that, I have a, one of my screensavers on my phone actually is the, is the sword of Damocles and I have that. What is it? It's the sword of? The sword of Damocles. So. What is that? Damocles was the jester of the story of it's about the sword that's hanging above the yeah the king because everybody wants to sit in the throne right and yeah and it looks great and then you look above and you realize you've got that thing hanging by one thread yeah my thread is that alcohol and it just took me about 40 years to work this thing out you just leave that alone and everything else is going to sort itself out.

54:02So the sword of Damake's in the bakery is the product. So as long as, if you fuck that product, the sword comes down. And then the sword for your life is booze. Yep, is booze. Fascinating. It is my gateway to hell. And if I want to go and walk through that door, then I'm the fool. And product's your key to heaven, essentially. Yeah. Interesting. Fascinating. So I saw on your Insta that you go to opera. Is that right? I do, yeah. Yeah, talk to me about that. I mean, yeah, so... It's, um, enjoy. I think he's had about four of those. Yeah, I think I'm old, you know, I'm maybe a bit old school, really.

54:42I mean, my wife introduced me to opera probably, um, eight years ago. We love going to opera. We dress well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We go to Paris, we go to Garnier. We went before the tough times. we went to Moscow to the Boleshoi Theatre to see Swan Lake. I mean, it is a wonderful, opulent world. And it really connects with a different era. Yeah, because it's like what's... I'm reading this really good book at the minute called The Cultural Tutor. And he talks, he goes through... He talks about, like, how actually, like, a study kind of a studying of culture old culture history architecture kind of goes through these seven pillars so one is architecture one is um like learning how to speak in all eight another one is like storytelling in fiction he goes actually if you imbue yourself with these things you can actually live a much happier life what would you so what does opera give you like i know you said it's like opulent it's well it's the commitment of the people who perform i mean it's the of what goes into that of the yeah the music i mean you've got you know to to create an orchestra if you think the the skills of all those instruments and the the history of from violins to you know there is so so much talent sitting in that little well of the opera yeah and then you have the performers who are these are people who give their life to this yeah it is magnificent what's Russia like because Russia's got some of the best like uh writers of all time yeah like uh who's Lolita have you read Lolita yeah yeah yeah yeah like what what's why do you think Russia is such a uh like had produced some of the best arts and like again I've never been there but I just love to get your perspective on that well it's that was old Europe so really this the all All the artistry came from the connection with France and Italy and that sort of migrated north and the Russians are so committed.

56:53I mean, we saw Swan Lake at the Bolshoi Theatre. What does the Bolshoi Theatre look like? Is it like? It's just beautiful opulence. I mean, it is, it's just insane. The, it's a wonderful environment and this is one of the best theatre opera houses in the world. and And they are perfect. It is, you know, look, in London you'll see great opera. In France you'll see great opera. In Russia, it is faultless. Really? It is literally faultless. And the commitment to what they do, the determination, the focus. I've never seen anything like it. How long does an opera show go on for? Anything between, depends if you're Wagner, you'll be there for six hours.

57:46Three hours. Wow. Is that where you get your kind of energy from now? Yeah, now you've got off the bottle. Where do you get that energy from outside of business? What gives you that? I like drawing. I like painting. I like going to museums. I like listening to interesting podcasts. um i travel a lot now because of partly because of work and interest as well yeah it's um you know i'm in a really fortunate place we stay in lovely hotels we travel we go to really interesting places what's some of those interesting places you've been to because again what i thought this is for listeners there's two maps of the of the world in front of us and you've got thousands hundreds of little pinpoints of people who've been here to the bakery school i think it's just a beautiful way yeah you know there's there's people have been coming from the congo like wild fucking places like what's moves if you were to put up your like little matthew dots on the map what are the places that really kind of changed the way you saw things well a bit of a mix i mean you know i love i love countryside i love nature but i like cities i mean i love new york i love Tokyo, I love, you know, Manila.

59:01But also, I mean, my wife's from Lithuania. We love to go out there. It's a beautiful place. Middle of nowhere. It's so quiet. Wow, that's a lovely place. Really? Interesting. What's the sort of food scene like there? Nice. It's simple. Simple but good. Yeah. A lot more variety. For example, if you go to a butchery in Lithuania, you get all of the animal. Whereas In the UK, you sort of get fillets, sirloin and ribeye. If you're lucky, you might get a bit of oxtail or something. Yeah. What museums do you like going to? Classical. Where's that? No, just classic music. I mean, I love Tate. Obviously, we go down to Tate Modern, Tate Britain.

59:49I was in Boston earlier in the year. I ended last year, went to the Boston Museum of Fine Art. That's a, wow, you get lost in that place for a month. I mean, it's a - Really? Yeah. Wow. Yeah, no, I've started going to that. What's the, is it National Gallery in, yeah, I went there recently. It was like really just, again, meditative, calming. In terms of the, so the business, what I would love to talk about is, so from the revenue pillars, so you've got bakery, like what are those? You've got bakery, you've got these JV franchise. what are the pillars of the business? So we have, well in the UK we own our business entirely and we have education we have B2B so we supply a lot of restaurants and then we have direct retail so selling to direct customers Yeah, and what's the split across?

1:00:39So the school is 20 % the wholesale B2B is 10 % and the direct retail is the rest 70 % so it's mainly retail but it's lovely i mean the school is it's a lovely way to it's just a really important part of the business it's lovely tip what do you think about like again i don't know what where everyone has a different answer this some people say in business like go really focus on like one thing and become like masterful at that and anything else is a distraction it's just fuck that off other people are like have you need a myriad of different streams because if one goes down you know yeah where do you sit on that spectrum of focus versus spreading your eggs spreading yeah i think we've got a good balance i mean we've got a good range we don't we don't do gimmicky stuff you know we don't i mean we like look i love introducing i love making a really good mince pie a really good hot cross bun i mean i love seasonality but really the bread and butter of the business is good pastries good bread and uh good donuts really i mean we kind of leave it alone um when we have a restaurant there so we do a breakfast offer it's like an all-day brunch good eggs nice eggs benedicts you know oh lovely um but really we're not into you know i do see a lot of in the space at the moment there is a too much i think just too much gimmicky stuff going on and that's largely social media driven yeah let's stay away from that you know i mean look i like to a bit of fun sometimes but really when i go back to my restaurant days you know the the best restaurants i worked in just had really simple menus what were those uh so bibendum you know six starters six main courses six desserts leave it alone hey mommy how's it going you know just leave it alone really just stick with good simple flavors you don't want big menus you know yeah Yeah.

1:02:41What do you think of like, how have you galvanised the social media side of things? It's funny, you know, so we run the social media in-house. It's largely me. Molly gives me a hand on that. You know, just, and we sort of do it between us, really. And every now and then we're like, oh, we'll try and get someone in to do our stuff. And we end up just going round in circles and we end up just doing it ourselves. Yeah. I mean, typically I'll just go online and I'll just say, hello, Matthew here. We're doing a new flavour of donut. come down and see us at Borough Market, boom, post. Don't edit anything, it's raw, it's unvarnished.

1:03:14I sort of like that, you know? Yeah, yeah, that's the thing it is, I leave it all in. Oh, just leave it, you know? I feel like there's so much stuff now so polished that it's vacuous because there's nothing, there's no substance behind it, it's no raw, like... Yeah, you want it live, you want it real. Yeah, you want it fucking real, man. Yeah, you want it now, you know? You don't want to be, you know, it's a bit, I mean, I've got a similar sort of relationship with many aspects. social media and with you know i hate with people say to if i send somebody an email and they're like oh yeah i'll get back to you next week so what are we talking about next week i want it now yeah yeah yeah that's the world i come from if i was working in the kitchen and the chef said uh four creme brulee's please i'm not going to say to him next week he means he means he wants it's like ping pong yeah right bing bing he wants it right back now it's immediate and i'm like i'm used to that so yes so i interested again back to tom kerridge he said a really interesting thing about this and i was like because he's gone sober as well oh right yeah yeah i mean he was saying that he would after service he would drink uh two pints of negroni just to get him going like it was fucking wild he's gone completely sober great but he was saying i was asking the difference between chef in kitchen and businessman and he was saying when you're a chef in a kitchen everything is reactionary it's like four creme brulees now you know you're fucking things up now sort it out now and he goes but now as he's got he's got a big you know business as well his whole thing is you can't be reactionary it's like so how do you how do you if your natural thing is like fucking let's move but then in business sometimes you can't be reactionary like how do you really difficult age I think you've just got you've just got to slow down a bit you know Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:05:01I'm asking this selfishly because I'm so reactive. I'm like... Yeah, but, you know, it's really difficult, you know, to analyse that and just to... Well, as they say, don't they? You know, that space between action and reaction, that is the space when we grow as a person. Ooh. Talk to me about some of those moments where that space has caused you to grow. Wow, because you've got to think. Because it's easier to react. And just to pause is a really difficult thing to do. What's an example of that? Because you've got to go deeper. Yeah, yeah, go deeper on that. Give me an example. Well, if somebody, you know, I think it's a very common, a common sort of reaction if you feel threatened or if you're feeling a bit insecure or if somebody's pushing your buttons a little bit, the easiest thing to do is just to react.

1:05:57and the hardest thing to do is just to listen and to really think about it from both sides and then to respond. It's a hard thing to do without emotion attached to it. That's a really difficult thing to do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Once you've done it, it feels so much better. Yeah. What has been that, is there like an example of where you have wanted to go like, and then... Probably every day. I mean, hard to really think of them, but yeah, definitely, there will be plenty. Yeah. That's so, yeah, helpful. So what did you say? In between, space between action... Between, between the space between, the space between and stimulus.

1:06:45Is it the Viktor Frankl quote, which is in between stimulus and response? Stimulus and reaction. Yeah. Space between stimulus and response. That is the place where we grow. Yeah, and it's your freedom, I think. Yeah, that's from the... What's that book? Anyway, that's so interesting. There's another one that's really good. It's a bit like, what happens when an immovable object meets an unstoppable force? I think that was Ian Banks, wasn't it? Who's Ian Banks? Is he... Writer. Oh, no, I've never read that. I just read The Wasp Factory. Now that's... Really? That's a book. What's so... Ian Banks, wow.

1:07:21I read every day. I read for two, three hours a day. Yeah, yeah. So talk to me about him. I don't even fucking know him. He is kind of a surrealist. I mean, he is like, Ian Banks, wow, what a mind. Really? English? Yeah, yeah, English. Scottish, right. Scottish. Oh, shit. So the force... What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object? This is the bit when you should have an ad break. Yeah, yeah. So it is a thing. And it's a really difficult one to answer. but there is actually an answer for it. Okay, so an unstoppable object hits a... Immovable. An unstoppable object is a physics question.

1:08:03Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what happens when an unstoppable object meets an immovable force? There's a brick wall and there's something going towards it. Something has to give. Sure. It has to give. So what is the answer? There is an answer. Which is? Well, and I experienced this. So when, I think when I was a chef, there was this unstoppable force, which was me, And the immovable object, which was alcohol, or the other way around. I don't know. But there were these two dynamics happening. Sure. Right? So the answer is a new entity is formed, which is both unstoppable and immovable. Right. It's the only answer.

1:08:40Right. That new entity is now me. That's what I became. I absorbed. I became a new thing. Because it's the only logical answer. But it's quite a thing to accept. Yeah, that really is. And then you have to grow from there. That's so profound. It is a thing. That's so profound. Immovable, yeah. Because I think we all have that, but the hardest thing is... Basically, you just need to step away from it. So The Wasp Factory, what's that about? It's this book. I mean, I won't tell you too much because it's such a twist. It's such a mad book. Is it an old book? or in yeah written in I think in the 80s oh wow I'm going to make a note of that oh you would love it it is what a book I mean yeah it's one of those which you just have to read it because it's he's set in a remote Scottish island this youngster he's set in a remote Scottish island being brought up by his his dad and the mum's abandoned them and he's and he's got a brother who's in a psychiatric ward and it's a seriously dysfunctional family and his life you know and how he how he lives and it is but it is it's i mean it's one of those books that has such an ending that it's like just comes out of nowhere and you're just like whoa really wow man i love there's a reason i like fiction is it allows you to allows because it's fiction you can explore different parts of human condition through fiction and like you you can interpret it in really interesting ways whereas like non-fiction is so like prescriptive it's like do this and the book is so much better because you can you you know within your mind you can create a much bigger picture than you would ever create on a screen but also what i like is me and you both read that book the the vision we create in our head It's completely different.

1:10:44Yep. That's why I love reading because it's like everyone that you put on your own life experiences and then the world you create is your world. And it's like, even though people are reading the same story, the creation they get off it is completely different. So what were some of the lessons you took from that? Because I think I've always found, have you read The Bonfire of Vanities? No. That's a really fucking, on the link of, it links to Wasps because it's about this New Yorker guy, but Tom Wolfe is my favourite book of all time. But you read that book and it's like an x-ray to society. You can see how we have this insane, it's about this New York stockbroker who just has this fall from grace.

1:11:22But the word wasp is linked, you know, to these... What's that called? Bonfire of Vanities by Tom Wolfe. I'll read it. I'll send it to you. It's really, really good. And he's got another one called A Man in Full, which they've actually just turned into a Netflix. Tom Wolfe. Yeah, Tom, there's two Tom Wolfe. He's the, it's a wolf with an E, but he's the American guy. um but yeah you read that and it's like it's an x-ray into it's actually rory sutherland's got a quote which says the best books on advertising actually have nothing to do with advertising yeah which i love because it's basically and you read that book and it's like you realize that our desire for in life is three things status connection and freedom from fear right and you get and everything we're trying to do is is linked to those things you read this book it's like fuck me that is like so true of life we want status we want connection and we don't want to be feeling in a fearful state i've read a lot recently actually i've read quite a bit when do you read is it like nine in the morning yeah yeah i'm going up early that's what i do yeah yeah four in the morning i can read i just read down and out in paris in london actually george alwell i've read that fucking great book it's wonderful yeah it's just so good and i i just actually just the most recent book i read was dorian gray oscar wilde yes i've read that it is just it's funny because we read that at school um it is so beautifully written yeah i mean it is i love that era of writing you know i love um oh gosh what herman melville oh you know i love um what was the other book i read recently that was from the 18 hg wells i read war of the worlds well yeah he wrote that but um what was the one i've read that book's mad though war of the world that predicted the how did he see i mean he was a visionary he was a visionary he predicted the um like there's mad stuff he predicted like he predicted like um oh god what was it this almost like space travel the amount of stuff that you pulled from that book and what's mad about that it's an alien invasion but what I find crazy is people are running away on horse and carts.

1:13:35Like, it's just such a... I'm reading Charlie Chapman's autobiography, which is one of the best written autobiographies ever. Like, the way his prose is just so delicate and delicious as you absorb it. But he was really good friends with H.G. Wells, which I didn't realise. Oh, Hemingway, Ernest Hemingway. Yeah, what's that? I just read Fiesta, you know, so... Is that when he was in Cuba? Pamplona. Pamplona in Spain. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Didn't he do one when he was in Cuba? He would have done, for sure. Yeah. He was a mad fucker. Oh, yeah. But when he, they talk about it. Didn't he shoot himself in the head?

1:14:12Yeah, he shot him, yeah, he killed himself. He would drink a lot. Yeah, he was a, yeah, probably an alcoholic. I don't know. Yeah. He was a big drinker. Yeah, famous for that. You know, but he had that sort of technique of writing. He called it iceberg, didn't he? The iceberg technique. When you remove all the fat. Yeah, and he just gave enough and allowed the reader to kind of make their own mind up of the story. So if you read his book, it's very simple, his writing. It's very sort of, you know, Jack did this or, you know, Brett or whatever. You know, but somehow he builds this picture in your mind.

1:14:47Fascinating. Yeah, I've read Old Man and the Sea and the Sea, but that's a great book. and he just, the way he, almost the analogous thing is, I always think it's a bit like some Japanese food where it's just so, there's nothing there, but it's just so, like almost like, what's it, what Endo Rotunda does, it's just like bang. And it's like the literary equivalent of that. It's so simple. Well, maybe even some of this stuff, right? It's just like. Same with flavours, totally that. That's what it is, and just don't fuck around with it. I mean, you know, I worked for Simon Hopkinson back in the kitchen at Bibendum, and he was that.

1:15:20He was a purist down to the bone, you know? And he was really one of the masters of just doing that. He had this dish, aubergine and pesto, on the plate, and nothing else. And nothing else means nothing else. But so people can get that. They all want to garnish it. They all want to put something on the plate. They all want to add, you know? And it's like, no. And it's just so wonderful. if you go to you know a great Italian bistro and you have a saffron risotto and it's just and there's nothing else and get Dan getting people just to do nothing else is so hard because they all want to add and you mustn't add it's just about you just stop yes and that is baking that is proper baking and it is you know God I bet wouldn't it be wonderful to have Hemingway here and give him a vanilla donut up yeah yeah yeah if only we could because he would get it he would get that flavor that singularity that just yeah yeah yeah right between the eyes you know yeah yeah yeah did tom tom brown calls them i interviewed him calls fuck you dishes and it's basically when you've got when you've got the bollocks to say this is what we're doing good food in his restaurant yeah oh yeah he's i can remember that yeah it was uh yeah i went we're doing actually one of our supper clubs at island his new place in king's cross yeah mate love his food like yeah i went to cornerstone it's just oh mate it's really good and he's at the capital now um we went there which was really really good the um so so so yeah oscar wilde's got a quote which i love which is everything popular is wrong what would you what would you explore that with me like what do you think what do you think's popular that's wrong you got yeah where do you start so much yeah yeah i know it's an interesting point isn't it sugar um you know uh just about everything we do you know which is i mean we're so lost there's a race we've come so far away from what was our purpose you know i mean and it really feels like there's a big split at the doesn't it happening in the world of this sort of powerlessness over the decisions that are getting made to wreak havoc on our planet and it's just so wrong and it's like and everybody's just powerless that them and us and you know very very difficult you know yeah no we have to start with healing ourselves and we can make some beautiful bread with a group of people in our bakery school.

1:18:11I was really trying to get into the sort of the nexus of why you do this and I think there's it's becoming blossoming and flowering to the surface is it's you know it's that there is so much wrong and chaos and hell and all these destructive things but actually if you just pull it down to baking a loaf of bread or a donut and in its purest as you say Hemingway-esque form there's something very powerful about that. Yeah, there is. And leave it alone. Yeah, why... So do you think, again, that can almost link to this social media craze of adding all this bullshit to it? Some of the stuff you see is fucking disgusting.

1:18:51There's stuff with, like, you know, you look at it, it just looks anemic and just sickly. Why do you think people don't leave things alone? What's that about? Because they're immature. Immature? Yeah. because because I haven't read enough Hemingway that's a great point I need to read more and talk less yeah spend less time on Instagram and that would that would go a long way forward yeah read the classics you know yeah so what are the so I just love I could talk about literature for days mate what are some of the other books that are really sort of perspective shifting or grounding The God of Small Things that was a good book I need to write that wow set in India about the caste system God of Small Things Yeah, yeah.

1:19:36And what's her name, the lady who wrote? She wrote a couple of books, The Turkish Lady. The one is called There Are Rivers in the Sky. Oh, that's a great name. Yeah, Rivers in the Sky. What's that about? Set in the 1800s. Well, it's sort of three stories that merge together. So it's a boy who's in the late 1800s and he's a genius and he he discovers the British Museum and it's the time when they bring the the tablets from Mesopotamia the what sorry the the stone tablets with crune form with the writing ancient writing and that was the ancient city right uh yeah from from Mesopotamia and what was Mesopotamia was that well that was Persia right Iraq right you know Iraq, Iran, that sort of bit right in the Tigris.

1:20:28And he discovers that he can read cruneiform. And he learns he's a genius. And he basically deciphers these tablets. And all these scholars at the time were just, like, baffled by how does he do this. And he's just his gift. But it's fascinating. Yeah, there are rivers in the sky. That's a wonderful book. And what did you take from that? It's just sort of, it's a bit of a tragedy, really. It's a bit of a, I mean, it's just somebody who had such a punished life. You know, he was so, so unjust. Right. And it's just very humbling. Yeah. What, he was almost too clever for his own good? Yeah, but he was really punished as a child.

1:21:08He had a horrible, you know, really, you know, it was that sort of Victorian childhood, you know. Yeah. It's just, it makes me grateful for, you know. Yeah. What was your childhood like? I mean, pretty blissful, really. I mean, I grew up in a town in Seven Oaks, Seven Oaks down in Kent. I was a busy little bee, you know, I went to Wilderness School. Oh, Wilderness School? Yeah, went to the Wilderness. What was that like? Well, there were two schools. So I went to primary school and then we had this thing called the 11 plus. Then if you remember, was it 11 plus or 13 plus? So what was it called, Mike?

1:21:4411 plus, it was the 11 plus. That's when you go into the next school, right? Yeah, and then you put, right. So when you have your 11 plus, you get a, you take you to these exams you know that age 11 12 or whatever it is you're going to go to secondary school and you either get a blue letter or green letter right you've either passed or failed and that kind of determines your future which is fucking mental for 11 years old saying right so i i failed so all the bright children they go to the grammar school they go twths to Tunbridge Wells Technical High School for Boys. They went to Sevenoaks School, the bright children.

1:22:25And I became sort of crushingly aware at that age. I was not a bright child. And that's awful, isn't it? I mean, it's awful. I remember opening his letter, and it's like a blue letter, and it was like, oh, I didn't get green, so I failed. So it's terrible. So basically, I went to a wilderness where the other kids go. it was a great school we had a great headmaster i loved it i made friends got on with my life but from an academic point of view i was an idiot i mean what a what a profoundly wrong thing to do to a child of that age is awful it's just like and much stranger so i left school at 15 with no o levels no qualifications nothing i had no interest i just wanted to go and get on with my life sure and i was lucky right i mean i was fortunate whatever i had this sort of skill set that enabled me to navigate to be employable um and a passion for my career but you know really quite horrible you know that sort of crushing feeling and you know and then those sort of interviews of why have you oh you've got a blue letter you know and it's sort of snobbery around that really.

1:23:43And I think for many years I felt quite embarrassed. You know I can remember so when I was... I'm losing my voice. Yeah, go for it. I can remember when I was about 17, 18. I would have been working at the time and we went to this like barbecue with some other friends and there were these other mums there from... and this mum said to me, which school did you go to? And I was like, I went to Wilderness. And she sort of looked at me and went, ew. Oh, gosh. Ew. You poor thing. You know what I mean? I mean, it's awful. It's awful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was a very sort of snobbish world. And that was, it's dreadful, isn't it?

1:24:31You know, you sort of accept that really. You just, I'm thick, you know, and it's sort of you just gone with that and it's but really those things could be you know that could have been just one or two questions in a multiple tasks in a multiple choice question thing that i just didn't know or whatever that kind of determine the rest of your life yeah that's not right yeah i can't no it's that correct that yeah because i had the same thing i had to go to i went to one uni because basically school predicted me shit grades so um and you know the whole thing about russell good universities again it's so fucking superfluous and inane now but at the time when you're like 16 i need to do this yeah otherwise i'm fucked you failed you failed and so then the school predicted me shit grades and as soon as someone says that to me i'm like right i'm gonna turn this around but you have to with the application process it's long so i went to bournemouth uni and then dropped out after a term because was pieing like a madman was needed had no control really there and then ended up going to manchester but but that that setback initially it's like that crush again i relate is that crushing feeling of feeling like you're dumb you know and that's and i think that's why i'm so curious now i always want to be learning because i think it comes from this i have to in like feeling of like inefficiency sort of you know well it's you know it goes back to the sword of damocles doesn't it i mean you know we can i can fail any day if i want but i won't but i'm gonna do everything i can not to and failure can take many you know you can fail from health inspection you can have a dirty fridge you can have out-of-date food you could have you know there's many ways you can fail but I've got to make sure that all the little tick boxes are ticked and I've done all the things I pay my tax on time I treat people properly I you know there's many I pay rent on time I I behave myself as a tenant I mean you know I've got to I have to do all of those things and also make sure everybody else is doing it you know it's a it's fascinating would you say i always believe like in your we're always like some of the best business people like they're trying to run away from something and run towards something it's like running from failure running to success i always think that's an interesting lens like let's talk about the ambition side because you've got this you've said you've always had this global ambition yeah like i love people who are ambitious at fucking i like get fucking energy from that you know yep and i can't i've had this conversation yesterday because i speak to so many interesting people and all my friends in the industry are super ambitious yeah good um when i go meet like a normal person i can't i'm almost allergic to normal people because i get so fucking bored within two minutes but the um yes how do you talk how do you dream i dream big and i've uh i think i've learned to do that and why not you know because once you realize that you you know, the sort of basic mechanics.

1:27:26People love our product, clearly. And so that's happened. People love coming to bake with us in our bakery schools. There's not a chance. So there's already thousands of people. What do you mean by not a chance? Well, it's not just blind luck. These people are not turning up. They're paying for a service we're providing. So what do we need now to scale that up? You know, we need, you know, so we've got a great PR company that I found. They're fantastic. I've got a really good team. And I've realized that it is a very, very scalable business. And the people who win in the game, be it Gales, I mean, they're winning the game.

1:28:10I mean, they're winning. A lot of people say, oh, they're doing this and that. And from a business perspective, they've done an amazing job. Yeah. You know, I remember when I grew up, having my local bakery in Seven Oaks was dreadful. We didn't have anything like that. Didn't have this. Anybody who's improved the bakery scene, I think, has done great. And of course, look, there's going to be always controversy about this and that, because that's the world we live in. So I take inspiration from other successful businesses. I want to do it my way. I love the teaching. I love doing free stuff for kids.

1:28:49I like to do some charitable things along the way. But yeah, what do I want? I mean, I want us to be open in 100 cities globally. By the end of this year, we'll be open in 12 cities. So we're 12 % of the way. We can do it definitely. We're opening New York this year, so that would be a game changer for us. At least five in each city, so that's 500 locations. I think we could get to 1 ,000. I'd like to be a really big employer and a really inspiring person for people to look at and think, wow. Because it's the journey, isn't it? It's not about a destination. I like being on this journey. I really love it.

1:29:37I love it every day. I look forward to coming here. I get out of bed in the morning. I'm, right, it's great. And a lot of people say, why don't you sell your business? What am I going to do with myself? Well, if I sold my business and go and sort of have a little sleepy, I mean, no way. It'd be fucking boring. I'm just going, no way. That's not what I'm about. Yeah. What was it? Adam Hanling said to me, I work to live, which I love. Yeah. Like, and I'm the same. Like, this is, without this, I would be bored as hell. Yeah, what are you going to do with yourself? It'd be an empty, empty, empty place.

1:30:17In terms of scaling, what are some of the systems you had to put in place to scale? Because I feel like that's one of the... Well, I think we found it easier than most because we're already good at training people. We do loads and loads of training. So last year we had 20 ,000 people through our schools. So we've become really good at showing people what to do. So that's sort of woven into our DNA as a business. Oh, wow. So almost like the revenue stream of education is actually internally helping you scale as well. Yeah, it is. And it's helping to, I think, to inspire and attract the right type of people into the business.

1:30:50Who want to learn, essentially. Passionate people. And you want people who understand sourdough and they understand, you know, modern bakery, really, which is what we're about. But it's actually not modern at all. What we're doing is actually, that's how it should be. Sure. We're just selling proper stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Proper bread. But I think it's a really interesting space to be in. I mean, I'm so glad that I'm a baker, you know. I'm so, and that was just sort of a happy accident. There I was minding my own business as a chef. And then I worked as a chef and sort of migrated into pastry, then went into bakery and thought, I'll set a business up.

1:31:29And hey. What's the art of educating and sort of teaching people? Well, I suppose I've learned with that because I came from a very intolerant chef world. and all we need to do not everybody's going to leave our bakery school as a sort of amazing baker what we need to do is just elevate skills if they're here we lift them to here it's just one little step as long as people learn something always learn something and it's just those little additions of knowledge and that's how our you know brain is built isn't it it's just a little bit every day it's a and that's how and that's how you get the team moving here like in terms little bits just little bits every day little bits yeah yeah yeah yeah millions and millions of little pieces yeah yeah yeah all accumulate to be this huge tower yeah yeah yeah it's not one big rock you know yeah it's the other it's almost like that but almost bacteria like one yeah a little bit of bacteria what's um what's it because i know you guys the way your franchise model or jvs is quite different i read something that's quite different to other businesses like describe that international we are international yes international with franchise which is a tried and tested system it's great it works it's you know we don't want to be we could never open a business in the philippines it would be way too complex local law local employment local real estate law it's a it's a complicated beast so how does it work from a franchise model like like as and so they'll come to you, you go to them?

1:33:08Typically they have, they've always come to us, but now we are actively out there. So I've got a development team looking at developing the world. Right. So yeah, we are, this year we're opening in Manila, in Bangkok, in Jordan, New York, we'll do it ourselves. How come you wanna do that yourself? I just wanna own it. I just wanna sort of make sure. America is probably the biggest market in the world we need to crack it so New York and I love New York yeah I go there a lot and I I really I just find it a very inspiring place I love the energy I love the the kind of can-do-ness of it you know London I don't feel that in London all the time it's a bit sort of interesting you know I mean London can be a bit you know I think you you get a bit of tall poppy syndrome in the UK.

1:34:02And if you're sort of perceived to be a little bit too successful, it's like, Sure. And America, oh, they want you to go to the moon. Yeah. Mars. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's mad. I've just been in Nashville. We did a podcast out there for, with Will Godara. I don't know if you've read, he wrote, Unreasonable Hospitality. Okay. Really good book. He was, he was part of 11 Madison Park when they got the best restaurant in the world. He owned it. got it off Danny Mayer but you know when I was over there we were like it was a Six Nations so I ended up going to the pub to watch watch the game and everyone you meet in the bar and I end up meeting some British guys over there and they introduced me to their American mates and it's just this like they're always like what are you doing but in like oh that's amazing you know like insane like keep going it was kind of that energy I do feel like I don't know maybe I just purposely surround myself with around good people but I feel like at least in my little bubble there's a lot of ambitious people but i think you're right on a macro level it's just kind of like feel sorry for yourself a little bit yeah and you need to you know what are you so um the the ex marketing director of press a really good mate of mine and he he does course and press now the drinks and he was at green and blacks and he was saying that when they launched pret into new york it was really on that point really challenging because in terms of the tone of voice, the language, you know, in the UK, it's like, we're fresh bread.

1:35:30And it's like, in America, they were like, that's not going to work here. We need the braggadocious fucking, we are the best coffee. It's interesting, like, again, Oscar Wilde's got another quote about America versus the UK. We're two nations divided by a common language, which I think is very, very, very, very interesting. What are you going to do differently to make sure you crack America? Well, we've done a bit of branding. So we have done a refresh to our branding and it is quite bold and brash. Is that specificity for America? No, we do it everywhere because I think we just need to be. I think we can wear it as a brand.

1:36:03You know, we need to be a bit out there. Yeah, we need to shout a bit, you know? Yeah. And let's be really proud of that. And if the, you know, the Brits don't really like it, well, you know, come on, guys. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When's the rebound go live? Well, this, here it is actually. Oh, sick. We've got this funny little H here, which is a quirky H, which is 24 degrees actually, which represents the optimum proving temperature for yeast. Oh, wow. But it's, yeah, little changes, but just bolder, sharper, dynamic, a bit more on your face, sort of boom, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is us.

1:36:43That's what we do. And how will that go through like socials or like? Oh, we'll just change it bit by bit, you know? Yeah. It'd really take probably a year to fully change it, packaging, everything. Whereabouts in New York is it? Second Street. No, Second Avenue. Where's that? So Second Avenue, Upper East Side, on the corner of 82nd Street is Cross Street. Right. So Central Park, sort of on the right-hand side of Central Park. Okay, great. So it's a banging location then. Yeah, Upper East Side is really happening at the moment. So yeah, I mean... And so what are you going to do? So you've got the rebrand, is it like you're doing new products there?

1:37:24Or what are you going to do? Donuts a lot. We'll do the sourdough bread, obviously, cathedral loaf, pastries, and the school. Okay, great. And we're developing some new courses for the school there. So that's exciting, actually. We'll do some new sort of Britishness, you know, really sort of celebrating the Britishness. I think they'll like that. Yes. Well, that's the thing is what they were saying in Nashville, whether it's like Britain is one of the greatest brands to export as a country, like in terms of all the history, the, you know, and actually our creativity, like as much as, you know, I speak to a lot of people from the show, I'm like, well, why did you come to London?

1:38:03Are you like, you know, from different cultures, different countries? And they're like, as much as there is this mardiness about, and like tall poppy syndrome, on the other side of that, it's like for a fucking tiny nation, we have some of the most creative. Amazing. And we dominated, we still dominate music, really, for the size of our country compared to where we are. And like this, writers, thinkers, you know, there are some of those amazing things about the UK which I absolutely love. So I think that's a genius idea of exporting it. What have been some of the mistakes or failures you've made that you've learned a lot?

1:38:36I think like the deeper the wound, the deeper the wisdom, like on this 10, 15 year journey, there's going to be mistakes. I think I made so many mistakes in my 40s and 30s and 20s that I think I've been pretty good. What were those mistakes? Because you had flower power as well. Yeah, gosh, I had flower power. I set that up when I was 29 years old. And I was all over the place as a person, you know. But I learned. I'm a quick learner, you know. And I think, you know, the sort of baptism of fire. I mean, you know, the only way you really get, you know, you can say to a child, can't you? Don't do that.

1:39:18Don't do that. You know, they're going to do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What was the baptism of fire? You've just got to stay connected with your business all the time. Stay connected. With your business, with what you do. You can't drift, you know? You can't. You've got to be emotionally and physically attached to a business. It would have to be all the time. So when you say you were drifting, what were you doing like? Well, in that case with Flower Power back in the day, you know, I wasn't there. I became disconnected emotionally. You know, mentally, I just wasn't in the business. I was drunk. I was, you know, I was in a different place.

1:39:58Interesting. So, again, we don't have to go here, but what happened with Flower Power? Because didn't you get fucked over by an investor or something? Well, not really. I mean, yeah, so Flower Power, I've had the business for 10 years. Great name, by the way. Yeah. I really like that name. yeah really fun well it's five and five letters so it's bred ahead is there is a little few things yeah yeah no i think both things but i just think it's a really delicious name um so yeah i had business 10 years grew i had about 50 or 60 staff we were doing well and we used to do a lot of wholesale a lot of farmers markets around london and then i got approached by an investor luke Johnson and at the time he was you know very successful man and I just sort of wow you know wow Luke you know and and he invested Julie a little bit into my business flower power at the worst possible time I mean I was drunk all the time um in the beginning he didn't notice or pretended not to notice and then we only worked together for about six months and then it just got worse and worse i got worse and worse wasn't turning up to meetings wasn't present and then it really came to a head and he was like just just get out just just just get out and he just basically sacked me i mean like the business needed more money because i was spending too much um so he did he put more in but he said all right yeah i put more in but i'm having i'm having your business off your son right how did that work i don't understand if you only give a bit of money in because it was either that or i would have gone bust yeah i was so compromised i mean i was stupid you know i was i was an idiot you know he took full advantage of that do i blame him no he's an investor that's what investors do you know and did i feel any sort of remorse actually no it's funny i saw him about two months ago i was at a book launch and i i saw him this first time i'd seen him since 15 years and it was really funny because i probably look quite different and he was like gosh matthew how are you and i said i'm fine actually luke how are you and it's and it was quite nice to sort of sort of set that straight yes i left it in such a abysmal place you know i just sort of like just walked away i was you know so what did you do like the day you walked away like went to northfield farm oh so that was that day yeah 2009 and so and so is that business still going northfield farm no no flower power uh no no they kept it for a while and then they ended up using the space to manufacture stuff and fold it up yeah so what did you say when you saw luke like what was the discussion so nice to see you yeah you know i mean it's he's a you know I don't know him particularly well, to be honest.

1:42:55I mean, but... Didn't he do Pizza Express? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was kind of, I think, one of his most successful ventures. And he's had a couple, you know. He's done very, very well. I mean, he's a wealthy man. Yeah. Yeah. Did you almost get a bit like, when he came to the table, it was kind of that, like, oh, shit, like, this could be... Yeah, it could be huge, couldn't it? Yeah. And it probably would have been if I'd been in the right space in my head. Yeah. You know. but um it's funny now we do get we get approached now by investors quite often and we well we don't need to you know i was gonna say do you have investors in this or so you build it i built i own 100 wow and we built it completely from cash flow well i don't it's myself and my wife yeah um which is great and i'm really proud of that we don't have investors we don't need them which is a kind of really different place to be yeah I don't want that I don't want an involvement of another person to have conversation what's the point what are we going to you know yeah yeah yeah it's boring yeah it's just spend all day in meetings in semantics lunch basically well I mean usually the reason why people want to invest is they'll put in a block of money now and all they're going to want to do is sell that in five years three or four times and use it as a sort of a leverage tool.

1:44:14You know, I don't want to be a part of that. Because I don't have an exit strategy in mind. Yeah. An exit strategy is my son to run it, you know? Yeah. How old's your son? Five. Oh, amazing. He's got a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is that your only, you've got one child? I had four children with my first wife. yeah and that that whole relationship is a thing of total disaster and ruin and there we are but hey that's life yeah what about the name breadahead where did that come from right ahead well i was left in this position you see in 2009 when i went to northfield farm i was sitting at this table yan mccourt's table thinking what the fuck are you going to do with your life son a bit like in Twisted Sister.

1:45:09How old is this, Jan? Is he a bit older than you? Yeah, 10 years older than me, almost exactly to the day. Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah. Scorpio, like me, 10 years, exactly 10 years older. Wait, when's Scorpio again? What's that? November. November 13th I was born. Oh, sick. Yeah, nice. So a bit like in that Twisted Sister movie, the film, you know, what are you going to do with the rest of your life, son? If you've seen it, it's a wonderful film. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, music video from the 80s. Love, Twisted Sister. Hair rock. Twisted Sister? Yeah, yeah. I think I saw, did you put a picture of that on your Instagram?

1:45:48Maybe. I think you might have, yeah, because I think, yeah, I thought that was awesome. We're not going to take it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Fantastic. I mean, so, yeah, so the name brought ahead, so I just, look, I draw, and I always have a sketchbook in my bag, and I draw stuff all the time, and I love drawing and I'd write things down and doodle and sketch and I still have the little book at home and I was just writing the word bread and I just drew an arrow in front of the word bread and I just thought bread ahead and that's what it needs to be that needs to be our name and that was it wow that was the name very simple yeah it's a great name and I like the sort of forward nature of it and forward thinking I mean I consider us a young brand I mean I like that i consider myself to be young i'm 56 yeah you're a fucking great nick for like yeah i train a lot yeah i'm a personal trainer i do a lot of when do you train uh usually 10 a.m yeah that's the time i usually go yeah i love it yeah yeah i miss it if i don't do it my wife trains a lot a little bit obsessed about that uh but it's great and i really enjoy it yeah i really haven't got injuries at the moment which is a really nice place to be do you do running or i can't i i ruined my yeah i knackered my toe actually so about um 30 years ago when i was drunk i was running on a beach sandy beach and there was a stone a rock in the sand and this big toe that one right there i basically ripped it underneath oh proper i mean like fuck me excruciating pain and it's now it's swollen i've had an operation on it uh i'm not gonna run again yeah not any distance yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah i walk a lot i did 60 000 steps one day last year it was my record last year yeah i think i i think i saw that actually 60 000 so wait how long does that take like 10 hours or something yeah proper i mean i was up all day i just got up like four in the morning i just walked and a little break for lunch and i love doing that sort of stuff yeah yeah i'll I'll do it again next year.

1:47:55I'll do it. I'll just see how far I can. Where did you walk? It was in Lithuania, in the forest, in the pine forest. Oh, but that's delicious. Oh, it's wonderful. Really? Is it like in the hills or is it in...? No, it's quite flat. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Nice. We approached this delicately, tell me to fuck off, but with your previous relationship, would you want to reach out to your kids again or is that...? Oh, I mean, in time, you know, but it's been a long time and that's a difficult one. I still, you know, feel pretty different. I believe, you know, look, I'm an eternal optimist. And if you're out there listening, come and see me.

1:48:33Yeah. I don't know, you know, it's a difficult one, you know, when families break down. I mean, it is a very, very difficult thing. It's almost like a ghost, you know. It's like a sort of a ghost in my life. And look, I believe there'll be a day for that, you know. And when you say it's a ghost and you're like, like does that how does that does that manifest every day with you do you like does that i have a place for it yeah of course it's yeah it's a tragedy it's it's a horrific thing you know but you know i'm not alone in that yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah it's a it's an awful thing and it's you know there are some things that time maybe doesn't heal yeah and is that did that happen around that 2009 it just everything just got you got cut off from the family yeah and i I think as well, probably what caused a further rift is when I remarried and then had another, you know, I had my son.

1:49:27Yeah. And there's probably, you know, that's another dynamic and people find that maybe really painful and hard to swallow. Yeah. For me, it's wonderful. I've been really successful. And that, to look at that from the outside, probably pretty painful for others, you know? And it's a, but I think, you know, I had to, I was aware that I'd, you know, came from a, I had a dysfunctional marriage and family and I kind of knew that look I've got another chance I'm not going to waste my time I need to get on with my life you know because and I did you know I really got on with it so I just kind of put everything into my work and I which is what I love doing anyway yeah yeah yeah often I work seven days a week now I mean by work seven days look on Sunday I'll pop in for two three hours I'll see the guys yeah yeah yeah I like that I I don't find it, you know, stressful in any way.

1:50:19I find it a pleasure. Also, I just get bored if I'm not like... Yeah, you need to be connected, you know? I love that idea of having your whole body connected to the business. Yeah. And it certainly, even if I'm away, I mean, but I'm still here mentally, I'm in this room, you know? Mm. The few more things, mate, then we'll begin to wrap this up. I fucking love this conversation. It's so, so, so interesting. About music, we didn't touch on music. because I grew up, you know, I was born in 1969 and I grew up with the best music ever. So what were you into? Ever. What were you into? Well, kind of everything, depending on my mood.

1:50:55And, you know, that could have been from, you know, from Hair Rock. What is Hair Rock? Well, that was Twisted Sister. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It kind of started that movement. I haven't actually listened to Twisted... Oh, my God, there's actually a fucking cafe called Twisted Sister that's just opened in Battersea Rice. Is there really? Yeah, yeah. I was wondering why those, because I just followed them on Instagram. That's fucking mad. Maybe there's a link to that. I'll have to go in and ask them. Well, you know, Credence and the American rock bands and Leonard Skinner and the picture discs and the vinyl and Trevor Horn and the, I mean, Malcolm McLaren and that, you know, there was just so much talent.

1:51:36And that, you know, the early music videos and then Madonna came on, you know, and Prince and Michael Jackson. And I mean, you know, I was so lucky to have kind of experienced that firsthand. George Michael. I mean, these people, Freddie Mercury, you know, our lives were full of music and content and great. I mean, I went to see Freddie Mercury Queen in concert in Wembley. Well, it was Live Aid when I was 15. Wow. Again, British. I think the British music is our greatest export. That guy. I mean, how do you even begin to kind of... Fathom. Quantify something like that. Unfathomable. Elton John, I mean, you know, Annie Lennox, the Eurythmics.

1:52:22I mean, it was just talent and talent and talent and talent. And it was just like this explosion of incredible music. If Bred Ahead was like a rock band or a singer, like who would it be? Who would you model it on? That's a good question. That's a really good question. I mean, it would be a mix. If it had to be one. Gosh, yeah, yeah. I suppose, gosh, that is really hard to answer. What do I keep going back to? You know, would be my question. I suppose my playlist at the moment. What would I go back to? You know, because I love Sex Pistols. I mean, I loved it. Um, yeah, what have I got on here at the moment?

1:53:15Maybe the jam? Oh, mate, I was listening to them. I've got a really good... You know Spotify does your radio? Yeah. You can do the radio. I had it on yesterday. And I think I put in the Smith, This Charmy Man, and then it came... Yeah, yeah, so what difference does it make, the Smith, is what I'm listening to. I fucking love the Smith. But I did the radio, and then you get all the jam, you get the fucking stone noses. I mean it was just so much of it the song that I like well the band I base my stuff off is the Beatles what I love about it I talk about this a lot but the fact that they constantly reinvented as soon as they did one thing they'd rip it up start again and I'd try to make every conversation completely different but then the song that is like my brain is like you know that I want to be adored that that is how I want to fucking get after it do you know what I mean yeah what song best presents like the way your brain works gosh so many you know i i do that thing of playing music on repeat buggles buggles video killed the radio star trevor horn there's a really good one on youtube but he doesn't like he's in his 80s and he was a bassist you know he's a bass guitarist and he's just got it i mean dire straits i mean there's some i like good covers you know there's a you know frog studios there's a no i don't know there's some good covers of he's a crazy guy i think he's german listen to that i mean it's just wonderful really what um what's been the best big gig you've ever been to i would have been live aid when i was 15 because i think the age i was you know yeah because that's quite i remember seeing oasis when i was that age at maximo park and you're away from home and you're thinking and you you know it's you feel you shouldn't really be doing it i saw i saw elton john at best of all that that best of all used to be such a fucking good festival and it kind of it kind of became sort of eviscerated into nothing which was a bit sad but like sisters i remember seeing sister's ledger i went to uni in manchester the second seeing sister's stage wow bro that was just like the most sumptuous experience ever it was so so good yeah i used to go to a lot of the festivals i mean back in my in my 30s you know in my drinking days we used to when i had flower power we used to do like the shambhala we used to do the music festivals and self-register and then have a stool and then get off your nut basically yeah yeah i spend all the money i used to basically it was just a non-stop party yeah for the whole summer I used to have a van and I used to drive to the festivals take the stuff and then yeah that's all very irresponsible and but you know I used to set up glamping at festivals and like none of the big ones but we did we did like rewind festival in Henley which was the 80s one which was jokes but again this was I was like 20 but you you know you'd be sleeping in the van and just fucking partying and like it was a very very very fun experience like if i'm being honest you know i really really enjoyed it and look back in those in those periods and i was like uh yeah again retrospect's a beautiful thing at the time i was probably thinking what the fuck am i doing all my mates are in finance so i'm sitting on clamping things but you know with rose tinted lens goggles whatever it was a very it felt probably wasn't but felt very carefree you know and it was just a very easy easy time um final question makes i know you've got a meeting what's one truth you believe most people disagree with you on

1:56:55you

1:57:01I think being selfish is a really good thing, but you've got to understand the real meaning of the word. Go on. So, you know, I think this sort of perception of selfishness is often perceived as being a negative thing, but it's not at all. To be selfish, you've got to look after your own interests first before you can do good for others. because if you're, you know, it's a bit like the analogy of putting on your own oxygen mask before you can help another. So I think, you know, I think it's, you know, that's, I think that point, well, the view of selfishness, I think is. It's almost self-fit, being selfish is also selfless.

1:57:44Yeah, it's the same thing. Interesting. But it's important to have the balance because it's not just greed, that's a different thing. Yes. You've got to be able to take and give. So how are you very selfish? which and then how does that manifest selflessly i mean i i put business first and i think i'm very fortunate that i've my wife is a person who gets that not all partners do you know i was talking to another guy who owns a business and he was saying that his wife when he's on holiday he's not allowed to look at his phone i find that ridiculous i find that totally ridiculous look if you're a business owner it's always gonna be business first of course if there's an emergency of course you have to commit but you have to respond if you're gonna win a game if you're on the pitch and you've got to get that your job is to get that ball further down that pitch that is the job and when you're in business a business like this there is no off button it's Seven, it's 24-7.

1:58:50It doesn't stop. You snooze, you lose. Are you competitive with other bakeries? How do you think about competition? I love them. Yeah, because you champion them. Absolutely, of course. What are you competitive against? I hate shit bread in supermarkets. It's dreadful. I hate the way the British food system has become so bland at the top end. What we need is little bakeries all over the country. it creates employment it's creative it's it's beneficial in so many ways and i want to inspire that mate absolute fucking joy man love that and uh really appreciate it thank you so so much this is the podcast i really really do appreciate it if you like that episode only if you liked it please do give it five stars subscribe tell all your friends families foes next door but one cat dog whatever please tell everyone about this podcast it means the world to me and i really want to understand what your pain points are as the new wave of challenger food and drink brands please do hit me up on linkedin search dan pope and hopefully we can together create a more meaningful and powerful podcast for the next wave of challenger food and drink brands thank you so much