How Danny Winer transformed from failed Hollywood actor, to build multi-million dollar cookware brand HEXCLAD, secured Gordon Ramsay as a business partner and partnered with Hailey Bieber, Kendall Jenner and Halle Berry

32:19So I think with this gentleman, Swedish gentleman, that was the beginning of my maturity in that area. And now I've become more open to it. The fact is, there's no shame in asking for help. I think in a way, it's just like even with people's mental health, there used to be this stigma of asking for help. There's nothing wrong with asking for help in business. You know, right now, if somebody laughs at me for, for asking for help, I simply just have to go scoreboard. All right. And so it's, um, again, that's a consistent theme I've had with all the guests is always ask the dumb questions because the dumb questions are actually the slipstream to like propel you because every other fucker's like going upstairs and looking at a book or whatever, or go and Google.

33:10Where I want to kind of go into now is we were talking, you know, you say go from, uh, go from your time in Los Angeles and you meet your, your mate, offers you 500 quid to do this, this stuff on the weekends, selling cookware. And everyone who listens to the podcast, I think anyone who's a founder has to get good at sales. I think it's like you've you've got to be able to sell your product and specifically with cookware there's two books that we were talking before we hit the record button so zig ziglar the secret of closing the sale i don't know if you've read that but that is a i mean it was zig ziglar for for the audience is kind of he's a bit of an american kind of icon i would say he's um or maybe he's he's quite corny but he's he's an american icon and he's got that book and i've read that book so many times i was trying to get sponsorship for this podcast and seth godin who's a marketing like sensei i would say it's his favorite book of all time and in that book zig ziglar talks about selling cookware and it's just it's quite an old-fashioned book but it's littered and laden with really good examples and the other one of my heroes is david ogilvy who wrote when he was like 24 this is the this essay called the theory and practice of selling the arga cooker and he used to gallivant round edinburgh and the north of the uk selling this arga and like one of his principles is the perfect arga salesman combines the combines the tenacity of the bulldog uh with the manners of the spaniel which i just think's amazing and i'd love to go i'd love to you're obviously really good at selling and i'd love to kind of explore what you've learned like what are your principles and maybe we could do this as like almost a hardware, which is the, almost the foundation, like these are the two ways or the two biggest lessons you've learned about sales and then software, which is more of like the nuance.

35:08So the stuff you'd learn on the job that you'd only really get from doing the reps, if that makes sense. So we start with, we at hardware maybe, because it really helped listeners. So, look, I'm always amused by people who say, oh, I can't sell. I could never sell. We're selling every day, right? If you're trying to get your mates to go to a certain restaurant, you've got to sell the restaurant. You've got to sell the idea. I heard it was amazing. So-and-so went. It was the best meal they ever had. And whatever it is, we have to sell something. My young niece, is trying to sell me on the idea why I should buy her this video game.

35:55She's 11, but she's already selling. So we all do sell, right? We got to sell ourselves every day. Sometimes people, I think, get overwhelmed when you tell them, oh, but you have to sell this now. Why do you have to sell this? I hate this old line, like, sell me, they'd hand you a pen. Now sell me this pen. yeah yeah yeah yeah i'm like okay i'm not gonna sell it to you you know right now i didn't look at you know look at the weight that this those exercises are bullshit sales comes come down to like basic things right you you identify a problem right with with some so i'm talking you i identify what's the problem that you had.

36:45Okay. Now I stir the pot. I get you riled up about the problem. And then I present the solution to you. Right. And the solution is this. You hate that you can't drink the coffee right out of the pot. And I get you to talk about your lips being burned and everything else. I'm like, guess what? I've got this thing. It's called a mug and no more burned lives. In its simplest form, that's the oldest way we sell. Identify a problem, throw up the pot, present the solution.

37:21Now, that's the broadest frame. But then how do you achieve success selling? Now, number one thing is listening. So often it comes back to listening because Because back when I went to that first trade show, if you walked up to me, if I listened, if I shut this and use this, you're going to tell me how to sell you. Because you're going to talk about what you don't like about your current one or how you got ripped off or this. And then there's basic stuff. If I use this and I use these, you know, I mean, if a lady comes up to me and she's in workout gear, I want to talk about all the healthy meals she can make in our frying pans.

38:10You know, you're going to save calories because you don't need to use, you know, oil and grease and blah, blah, blah. And I'm going to do it. If she's a businesswoman, if she's in a suit, I can tell she's from work. I want to talk about the time savings, you know, and how she can make quick, healthy meals for her family. If it's somebody that I can see that they enjoy a good meal, then I'm going to focus on all the delicious things that they can make and the easy cleanup, you know. So that in its most basic form, that gives me a bit of a head start on connecting with that customer. I think that watching and listening are often overlooked.

38:58People worry about memorizing a script. I like to get the customer talking because they'll tell me. They'll tell you the problems. They'll tell you their pain points. To me, those are the basics of selling any type of hardware, so to speak. You know, it's really simple. You know, I didn't, I didn't invent any of that. You know, I'd spend, I think I skim, skim to slash read the Zig Ziglar book in like the nineties, like, and I don't remember his, his, but, but like a lot of these great salespeople, there's so much of it that is just common sense. But, but very often the hardest thing people do is that they don't get out of their own way.

39:48in this situation well his whole thing his i think he sums up in such beautiful settings his is like sales is the transference of feeling and what you're saying there is it's much easier to transfer a feeling when you're talking about healthy products to someone in yoga pants that's much easier to transfer that feeling versus trying to trying to talk about quinoa and avocado to someone who likes hamburgers, right? So I think what you're saying there is almost like having those, not having a script. I think there's loads in that for people who are starting brands, right? Because, you know, we've got Whole Foods and stuff over here and a lot of getting food brands going is sampling and demos.

40:30And especially like for stuff that's products that are still pretty nascent over here, like kombucha. Like there's still a lot of people in this country like what the fuck is that? Do you know what I mean? I know it's like it's probably everywhere in LA. So I want to talk about, I listened to somewhere and I, it's what you said was, I really liked it. It says, you said, be able to work in all conditions. I think it was about like, I think it was a quote you said about being able to work in all conditions. And I liked that because it's like some, not every day there's, I know what we talk about, don't give up, but there's some days where you're not going to want to do it, but you just got to do it.

41:05there's going to be days as we say you just have to fly to australia for lunch with gordon ramsey for like 30 30 hours then fly back what what is what's been the hardest conditions in all this journey because you know we we sit here today and hector's got this skyrocket success hayley bieber um sorry may not have you had to be halle berry like but what have been the rough days that people don't see behind the scenes you know it's funny it's you know what i forgot about that quote i remember saying it now i don't know which podcast it was on but it was very good yeah so it is it's about you know and it's something i'm glad you brought up because the way it it came up in that conversation i when i look back it was a um you know it was important you know that the thing is to expand on it.

41:57It's like the conditions can keep changing and different things become challenging. Every day I deal with something I don't want to do, but now I do it with more money in the bank, which is nice. But there are new challenges. There are challenges that people people want to use me now. So I have to second guess the motives of both. What do you mean people want to use you? What do you mean by that? Now that like, you know, in the US, we were the fastest growing cookware brand. You know, we we've sold half a billion dollars worth of product to date now. So because of that, people want to use the hex clad success.

42:43Maybe they want to use my success. Maybe they want me to invest in something. Maybe they want to borrow money. Those are things now that I didn't have six years ago. And so now I have to be careful, both personally and professionally, this happens. It's very challenging when you've known people for a while and they're willing to trade years of either personal or professional relationship to get from you what they need at this moment. You know that they're trying to get me into a bad business deal because they need to do it, but they're willing to sacrifice the relationship over it. That's disappointing.

43:26And you have to also get used to disappointing people that way. I have an obligation to my company first and foremost, even though I'm the majority owner and the CEO, I care about every warehouse workers. So, you know, I talked to Gordon about this once. We were like about, there is this pressure of, of us knowing if like Gordon makes a bad decision or I make a bad decision, we affect the livelihoods of many, many people now. And there, there is pressure, um, um, you know, associated with that. So, you know, you, you need to be judicious in the way you spend money, judicious and prudent in the business decisions that you make.

44:11Because when we shut down the juicer, I think I had a couple of employees. It wasn't affecting as many people. So the bigger we get, everything I do is in a bigger galaxy and more and more plants are are affected by it. So I have to be, to be smart about it. Um, you know, and, and really what we do is a challenge is also in the, in this, you know, having, going back to your original question is there's always the challenge of how do you enroll people into your vision? Um, that's, that's that's you know it can be the easiest thing or the hardest thing and it changes day by day because sometimes you're just on and somebody's receptive and they're like i love what you're doing other times it's like i'm speaking you know bulgarian to to somebody and they're like they don't they don't get it and that way you know and that's hard and that with you know and that's really you got to keep like picking your picking yourself up and dusting yourself off and getting back to work.

45:30With the cookware, even though I knew when I met the gentleman from Korea who still builds all our cookware, that he had this game-changing technology, I couldn't communicate it well enough to people. When we were getting our first samples, You know, we went out to call my co-founder. Now we tried to raise money and people laughed at us. They said, cookware is too competitive that you're never going to be get, get space on the shelves against these legacy brands. And then they double laugh because when I said, they said, uh, you know, you're never going to get shelf on a space on the shelf. I'm like, Oh, we don't want to be on the shelf.

46:16We're going to be a D to C cookware brand. And they're like, you can't sell cookware D to C. And I mean, we got laughed out of some offices and literally laughed at. And nobody wanted to invest in us, even though we have this amazing product. So I cashed out like every account I had, all my money. Cole, we're like kind of forging credit card applicants, you know, and maxing out the cards for his share. And we barely made it. I've said this before because it's true. In the fall of, God, was it third? It might've been in 17 at this point, but we couldn't afford to have the product shipped to us in boxes.

47:08It was too expensive. We could fit more products if it wasn't in the boxes. So we would go in his backyard, tape the box, and then we'd be like, 12-inch pan, 12-inch pan, 12-inch pan on the assembly line. And he and I would build these sets of cookware. And we had so many paper cuts. We were bleeding on the boxes, and we would have to take some Windex and Windex the blood off the boxes. So we'd tape them out. And now I'm glad, obviously, because we don't have all these entanglements with private equity. We essentially still own the entire company, which is great. Guys, mate, so just not to give specific numbers, but how much money were you pouring in to get this thing going?

48:03Gosh, when I look back, because we also made a little money with the juicer. We dumped all that money into it. Oh, so you'd sold the juice businesses? No, no, we shut it down. But it was starting to make a little money. Like we had a little money in the bank account. So we put that towards it. Then I would say that probably Cole and I, between the two of us during that period, and I don't really mind saying, we probably wound up putting in about$800 ,000. And we, you know, which is significant. That's funny. Yeah. And that, you know, it went in like different, you know, you know, spurts where we had to do it.

48:46Like pretty much even while the juicers started killing it, like we couldn't afford coal still had to work another job. Like one of us had, I had left my job. So not only were I investing when I wasn't for two years, I didn't make any money. so I'm living off savings which also is you know get a thing you believe in yourself but it's like you're embarrassed a little bit like that old company that was out of business you know I used to say that you know they I had the golden handcuffs on you know they were overpaying me for what I was doing and I was you know good at it but they're paying me well enough that I couldn't leave and to give that up that was hard so all of a sudden you know I could afford to go out shopping whenever I wanted.

49:31I always had new clothes. I go to the restaurants. And now Cole and I joked about it for like five years. We didn't buy a new shirt, a new pair of pants. You're trying to explain to your girlfriend that without admitting, well, honey, I'm struggling, but why don't we cook at home tonight? I'm tired. It's really like I can't afford to go out to too many restaurants. So we really invested. We believed enough that we're kind of all in. It was going to be tough because here I was, I was going to be in my late 40s, 50 years old and broke, starting over. But I was so confident that worst case scenario, we were only going to be modestly successful.

50:25And if we were modestly successful, I'd make a good living and that would be great. I really wasn't expecting that I'd be in business with Gordon Ramsey and that, you know, I would be selling in, you know, 30 countries. And so it's, there's a lot of these pinch me moments still. So it's, it's what you've, I was listening to a podcast yesterday with I don't know if you've this guy called Chris Williamson he's a big podcaster he's actually moved to the states to kind of do it full-time and the opening quote he started that conversation with is he's made a note of it is pressure is a privilege he was interviewing some I don't know who he was interviewing some sort of fitness bloke but um I think it's it's when you go all in like pressure really sharpens the edge of the sword right and it's like and you know you're saying to like you and gordon were talking about how we make this decision and it impacts everyone it's no longer like three employees around a small table um but you also talk about like how the vision's hard to sell but i think that you've got as a pressure pressure it makes the vision actually easier to sell because you've got to make it work but in terms of of of that pressure because people listening to this like how do you how does that manifest and how do you is the first question.

51:46And the second question, I suppose, is how do you release the valve on that? Do you know what I mean? As a founder? Good, good questions. Um, gosh, um, you know, there's always in business, there's always pressure. It doesn't matter how, like how you become, it's just different pressure, right? And so for me, everything starts with grounding yourself. Who are we? What do we stand for? How are we trying to project ourselves in the marketplace? and then how do I communicate that to not only my customer, but to my coworkers who we need to enjoy a level of consistency. When I do those, the pressure does come down because I have a backup.

52:48I have people supporting me. In the beginning of a business, you have to be in that pressure cooker by yourself all the time. That's what I mean now, yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know it. You're just doing it now. Every day, you're starting your own business here. There's a tremendous amount of pressure. Now, I can share that. I can share it with Jason, my second in command. There's the pressure for an exec for Hexclad to go to an event here. We can share those duties now. I have some amazingly talented e-commerce people. You know, there isn't the pressure now that I'm going to, you know, choose the right Facebook app because I've got smarter people than me, you know, that that can do it.

53:36So then, you know, my pressure just switches a little bit. And, you know, but, you know, what's better, what's worse? There's something of like when you're going in the pressure of knowing you're all in because you've got nothing to lose now. They're like, we have nothing more to lose. you've got to keep going, right? It's like now, you know, I like to say what is stuff that is now considered inappropriate. Like, you know, my mates growing up, like we just bust each other's balls. So half the shit we say to each other, you can't say anymore. We text it to each other, like on our daily group text, but we're like, oh my God, we're each our nightmares.

54:19Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So there's that pressure of misspeaking now that I have eyeballs on me because what I say affects others. And that's the most important thing. If I lost everything, my greatest disappointment would be that I knew it had affected the people that work with me. That's kind of what becomes the pressure. But I think, and you said as you release it, I think recognizing it is a great way to just begin the releasing of the pressure, to know it's there, to acknowledge that it's there, to accept that it's there, and to put yourself in a position to not ever make it worse. Because then if you don't, it will release, whether slowly or quickly, on on its own um but but it's that presence of mind to to know it's always right there and uh you know and to accept it and deal with it that way i think yeah there's there's always a common theme that bubbles up with all guests and i think yours is this kind of like balance between being present within in quite high pressure environments consistently throughout throughout your life which i think is a kind of a superpower we're going to come on to gordon because there's loads i want to ask around that um sure but i want to go go into ddc because you guys and so like bulk of our listeners are creating brands to get into retail right so they will i know you guys are you still i think you're still in costco right but what i like about your stretch is you have one retailer so it's costco and then the rest is ddc like such a ballsy move lots of our listeners will try and get into, I don't know if you know the UK market that well, but we've got about four or five, four big grocery retailers, right?

56:16So they're trying to sell into there, which is great and it works, but obviously it starts chomping away at your margin, like there's no end. And I think that there's a lot of businesses that could benefit from

56:32leveraging DTC more, but DTC is like a minefield, right? And there's a lot of podcasts. I think I I listened to one with Jason, literally, I think it was recorded like in July. And he was saying how the D2C landscape has like completely changed over the last couple of years. If you were like a brand, if you were starting Hexclad tomorrow, right? Or if you were starting a kombucha brand, D2C, like what are some of the one or two things you'd really focus on? Like where would you be spending your energy? Well, you know, each company is different, right? So really, it's about telling a story. So I recognized early on, like with Hexglad, that we had a very unique product and it needed its story told.

57:26Now, I really felt that in 2015 and 16, when we said we want to start a D2C cookware company, what really got me believing in that strategy was the launch of a company here in the US called Casper Mattress. And I don't know if you know Casper or not, but I remember when I heard it, I laughed. I go, who's going to buy a mattress online? You've got to go to the store and flop around on it.

58:04So I kept getting in their ads. And then I'm like, and I get an email. And I'm like, try it. Try it. If you don't like it, we'll buy it back. I'm like, you know what? I'm going to give it a shot. And I bought it. And it was fine. Not the best, not the worst. But I'm like, they told this story really well. And they found my pain point and removed it. So I bought it. And that's when I was like, well, I can do this with cookware. This is something that you never purchase online. You got to go to the store and pretend you're flipping an omelet as you hold it. But that's why a lot of people didn't see that.

58:50and laughed at us when we said we're going to be D to C. But I also, yeah, it was a bit of a bold choice that I said, I want one retail. I do want one place where somebody who needs to hold it can hold it. And in the U.S., Costco is much bigger than in the U.K. right now. You pull into Costco on a Saturday here, and you'll drive around for 20 minutes looking for a parking space. And when you pull in, yeah, oh yeah, it's absolutely mobbed. And the crazy thing is, you'll pull in your car and you'll pull next to a Rolls Royce and they're shopping at Costco. There's something kind of cool about shopping at Costco here.

59:35It doesn't matter. Everybody likes a deal because Costco is a really good product. They just essentially try to sell it to you in bulk. So you enjoy a savings there that way. But part of the Costco experience is they like to give out food samples. They also like when you demo products. And I've done that already with Costco in the past. So I kind of knew that game and I'm like, this is perfect for us. We got to tell this story. Nobody's heard of us. And they'll let us do like a live demo. It's kind of like what Zig Ziglar started doing, by go around selling cookware door to door, or at the county fair.

1:00:20Now we're just setting up at a Costco, but we're doing a live commercial. I really knew there were two ways I can tell the story. I can get somebody to click on my ad on Facebook and listen to what we have to say, or I could do it live. Costco was the best retailer for that. Costco is great about other stuff. They don't take a lot of the money, you know, you know, almost everything under Costco, they take less than 20%. And, um, you know, so it, it's like a very simple, it's a very clean, um, uh, negotiation and relationship you have with them where it can be very, you know, so confusing in retail you're paying, you know, you're playing, paying for slotting fees, your defective allowances, early payment discounts, which you would get late, but they take them anyway.

1:01:13There's all this stuff. Costco is real simple. Go in, everything's on consignment, and if it goes to the cash register, they pay you for it. That kind of worked for us. We have an incredible relationship with Costco. We do a huge amount of business with them in the U S and to this day I have turned down many of the men of the major retailers. Um, it's, uh, you know, it's funny. They come to you and with this terrible deal, like usually you got to go to them. The fact is they're coming to us now, which is kind of great. Cause you know, we're the cool cookware and, uh, and then they come with this terrible deal and you're like, well, no, uh, I'll do this, this, and this.

1:01:59And they get like all confused. It reminds me of me backpacking in like the former communist countries in the late nineties when they still hadn't figured out capitalism yet. And they get very confused. Like when you're like, you would, you would, you didn't fall for their trick. I'm like, buddy, we invented this shit in America like a hundred years ago. So you're just figuring it, figuring it out now, you know, you would, you know, so there was, there's still a bit of that, like, Oh, they're shocked. I didn't take their bad deal where they keep 60 % of the money. Yeah, so what was just not to like name names on the retailers, right?

1:02:37But this is a common thread and I call it you get blinded by the retail listing lights. So you're like, you're above a brand, you're a small brand. I know you guys are much bigger, right? But the retailer comes to you, they are the David, sorry, they are the Goliath, you are the David, right? And it's like, you want that deal so much, you kind of get blinded by the volumes without looking at the actual margins, right? and what's left in the pot that you end up saying yes to a shitty deal don't really think about the payment deals terms what are some of those the terms they're coming to you with just i basically want to see what the difference between why you've said no to retail and why you're going into d2c or focusing on d2c i should say yeah well early on like like one i will talk about because actually i've had a nice relationship with them is walmart walmart um is is you know obviously i think the biggest retailer right now in the world, definitely in the U.S.

1:03:33The last time I was in negotiations with them, just the basic payment terms were net 120. And for anybody who doesn't know what that means, that means that they pay you 120 days after you've given them the product. So you have to float this. If it's selling well, months and months of inventory. and then you maybe have to take some very onerous inventory loans against those purchase orders. That's like, if you don't crush it... you're going to be screwed from a cash flow perspective, And you're always going to be needing capital because you'll become a victim of your success. So one, you know, net 120, like I would laugh at it, you know, and like you don't even get net 30 anymore.

1:04:26If you're getting net 45, people are like pretty happy, but it's net 60, net 90 is the norm that, you know, I don't have an interest in that. So like, you know, I'm like, I'm not doing anything more than net 30. And I feel like I'm making a compromise there. um you know a lot of people don't know how do you get how are you on eye level in a store versus down at the bottom shelf none of us go down to the bottom shelf to buy stuff unless we're looking for our specific brand and that will look all over but when you're just like hey i need pasta you get sent to the store whatever's an eye level and you you kind of grab and um but you pay for that, you know, and then, you know, you've got to give them defective allowances.

1:05:11And then do they do destroying the field where, you know, they get returns and what they'll do is collect a pallet of these returns and then sell them for 10 cents on the dollar. And now all of a sudden you lose the Amazon buy box because some guy bought a pallet of returns and you're competing against somebody selling your product. So all those things just make it so ugly. And that was something I didn't want to be involved with. So there's two things. When you're a D2C business, you don't deal with all that, but you also get to enjoy the benefit of controlling the entire customer experience.

1:05:58and for me the customer experience is everything because my goal was never to never to start a company that was like a cash grab my goal was to start a company and be around in 50 years or 60 years so it wasn't about getting all your money right now and get it in my bank account and then we can file bankruptcy in a few years or just disappear and we're gone and you're screwed that was never, never our strategy. So it's very important to, to, to, to control the customer journey for us. So that's something that DTC allows you to do. Like we have amazing customer service. I want to provide you with great content.

1:06:42Um, I want to make the whole, the whole buying experience as pleasurable as possible because you're making a big decision. You know, you're, Our average order value is around 500 USD. It fluctuates slightly, goes up, goes down. So it's a lot of money for people to be spending. So that's what made DTC attractive. And then though right now, there's some very negative conversations going on about the DTC graveyard that's happening. I don't believe, first of all, there are companies that I think wanted to be DTC that shouldn't be DTC, that they need a retail presence. Give examples of that because that could be really interesting.

1:07:26Well, you know, so there are products that really benefit from you holding them, like whether it's seeing the quality difference between something. You know, I would say like things like obviously there are D2C clothing brands and the only way they work is you got to make the returns very easy so I can buy two different sizes or three different sizes, right? But the negative is I now have three pairs of pants out of inventory floating in the ether out there, and I'm going to get two of them back. So to sell every pair of pants, I have to pay for three pair to send them to you. So I've got two pair in transit at all times.

1:08:12That's challenging. So sometimes to me that retail is better for something like that. I think if you have a product, a food or a beverage product that can benefit from somebody trying it in store like sampling, I think is very important. It's hard to say I'm going to buy this drink and I've never tried it and I'm just going to order it online and hope that it's good. or hope that it does all the medicinal benefits that they're claiming it will do. And I think early on, people said you want to buy cookware. People want to buy cookware that way. Well, it was a challenge. It took us all of 17 to figure it out and into 18, and it got better and better and better.

1:09:05You know, we didn't break a million dollars a month in cookware until online, that is, until into 19. You know, so I think, you know, recognizing the best way to position yourself. I think D2C is just having a correction. You know, a lot of different companies became D2C companies because they had no other way to sell it during the pandemic. So, you know, now companies that shouldn't be DTC will reposition themselves to both be retail and DTC. And then companies maybe that were overordering because of COVID expectations of sales, the ones that don't go under will correct themselves and, you know, change inventory needs and the market accordingly.

1:10:02it's it's it's so fascinating because i mean there's a brand over here i don't know if it's reached uh the shores of la just yet called huel h-u-e-l um which is i mean i think it's fucking revolting to be honest but it's basically like this it's a food drink that you uh it's like a nutritionally complete meal they started d2c absolutely flying huge huge huge brand and now they've gone into retail but it's like they're doing this the same thing but i think you're so right it's so category specific and so um product specific but let's just let's just say let's use hex cloud as the example here but if you could boil it down to like what the three things if you're starting a d2c brand tomorrow but with hex dad what should you be doing like what where should you be focusing your energy what moves needle is adverts is it the shopify account is it so yeah we use shopify but i think look if you're starting the product you one you got to have a good product right and you and just as important as your product let's So let's just assume you have a good product.

1:11:26Now comes consistency of messaging, okay? This is something we learned the hard way. We were giving conflicting messages sometimes because, oh, this worked for a minute. And then another time, oh, that worked too. So let's send that message and that message where we really needed to talk about our innovation and our durability. like those things needed to be in all our messaging and that took a little time and in our case we were a victim of our own success when it's working you're like oh then it's we got it right no because as we got cleaner in our messaging our styles agree steven more so so any examples of the two different messages types well so like stuff would happen like um like we've been lucky enough that we haven't made too many unsuccessful hires in our company.

1:12:26But very early on, we had a head of marketing and she was not a bad, very smart woman, not right for us, which is nothing against her. I should have recognized that. But again, a lot of it came because when they know all all the buzzwords and the overall strategy, you know, I knew she was smart. It didn't mean she was right. Like, here's the thing. One thing I said from day one, I go, we're innovative cookware. When people would ask me to describe it, I'm like, still, I'm like, we're badass cookware. And they're like, well, what does that mean? I'm like, we're badass. We're just, it's cool cookware that works really well, works better than the stuff your nan has in her kitchen.

1:13:17and we make no apologies for it. And guess what? An eight-year-old girl can be a badass and a 90-year-old grandpa can be a badass. And we all have a badass inside of us. And you're going to be a badass chef with our cookwork. And I would think of having said that, I remember, and maybe it was a bit like nobody believed in us because early on in our success, I got asked by somebody like, what's they go, what's a famous photo that that you would use to describe the hex clad? And I thought for a second, I'm like, there's a famous photo of Johnny Cash. I think it's in Folsom Prison. This photo, have you ever seen where he's like that with the middle finger?

1:13:59It's like it's just a giant finger and you see his face behind it. And I'm like, that's kind of who we are. And it's funny, Jason, my president, must go to a flea market. He found that on a T-shirt and he bought it for me. So I have that spirit now, but it wasn't like a fuck you to like any one person. It was a fuck you to like people that don't believe in me. A fuck you to people who don't have confidence in me. And by me, I mean all of us, whoever, whoever buys our pan, whoever doesn't buy our pan, whoever's home trying to learn how to cook, you know, whoever's exploring the culinary journey, you know, it's like, so.

1:14:39So when I was incorporating that into the messaging more, when like this woman who was running, she hired a creative team and they put a storyboard of like grandma in Iowa, you know, with her gingham dress on, cooking hex clad and taking an apple pie out of the oven. I'm like, do you not fucking get us? The only way I'm going to like this ad is if she steps outside and puts on a motorcycle jacket and gets on Harley and drives away. And then she's a fucking badass grandma. But otherwise, that's not us. Even if it sells, that's not us. I see the ad of the middle-aged couple, gray-haired, just graying, but they're fit.

1:15:31And they're in their loft kitchen in New York. They're drinking Cabernet, cooking together, and there's smooth jazz playing in the background. That's what I think high-end cookwork companies do for their ads. Ours is like two, a lesbian couple doing shots of tequila in their kitchen, cooking, and can't keep their hands off each other. We're just outside the box. or whatever couple. It's not a traditional gray-haired, 57-year-old white couple who can afford this product. I want little kids to want to use it because they don't mess it up. They're not going to destroy the Teflon pan that their mom had or that the dad who doesn't normally cook and use flakes to jam a fork into the pan isn't going to mess it up.

1:16:32We were always out And then the more we honed outside of the box messaging, you know, that kind of, that resonated. And that's why, like, in a way, like, Gordon was the perfect partner for us, you know? it's it's so i love what you've said there danny and there's there's a guy who's got a jeans brand big jeans brand over here um called hyatt denim and he worked for sachi and sachi big brand guy built a sort of business to timberland and he basically told me that you could you can boil your brand down to one word or like for you guys it's two words so it's badass nike's just do it that like one thing and the more granular you get the more granular you get everything becomes easier so suddenly you haven't got some people in a fucking penthouse in new york who just don't look right you've got as you say the grandma is getting a harley daiserson or two lesbians who are getting on hold of each other right and then when the brand partnership comes along who i think other than anthony bourdain gordon ramsay's the fucking biggest badass about to be honest i think he's an absolute pardon the pardon but he's a g right but um yeah you've you've teed me up perfectly for us to explore that right because um i actually i actually met him about three months ago at the gq food and drink awards in london and i was like i was like oh can i have a picture he's like and we had to wait for a bit so i come here you twats and that's it's massive series hasn't he like in a in a jokey way i was drinking an espresso martini and he was oh what's that I was like espresso, so he goes, oh, fuck me.

1:18:14I wouldn't mind some of that. I was just like, but just what you see is what you get, right? Absolutely. That's why, that's what I picked up. But I'd love to know. And I know he was, you talked about this at length. I know he was already a huge fan of, of Hexclad. I know, is it Matt at Royal Hospital Road was already using it? Like all those chefs were already using your product. What I'd love to get into is, is now he's your business partner. know like what has he taught you almost like about life and business do you know i mean because he's i think i'm really drawn to formidable people who are just can do so much he can deal with i mean they say keeping three three mitch and stars is the most amount of pressure ever he's doing that i know it's his team right but he's doing that and he's got two stars in france he's building a whole he's working with you as maybe if we could talk about like if we go to that zoom call you had with him what was what was the initial game plan was it a discovery call was it just to get to know him or where was your head at so so briefly yeah gordon was i i the gentleman who was doing our social media you know came to me and he's like you know gordon rams he's following us on instagram and i'm like really that's kind of cool he goes should i reach out i'm like yeah of course so he just sent a dm and you know it's not gordon his dude his assistant you know kind of said oh hi yeah um yes uh gordon gordon knows your cookware he likes it and he we said um should we send out some more yeah you could send some more pans you know he somebody gave him one during the pandemic.

1:19:57This was still mid-pandemic. We were like, okay, we'll send some more. By the way, does Gordon have a cookware deal? I don't think so, but I'll let you know. Cut to a few days later, I'm on a call with Gordon's business manager. It's funny. He goes, listen, let me tell you about gordon when you get you get in business with gordon you get more than you bargained for and i'm like is that a promise or a threat he's like a little a little of both so i'm like oh but he goes look gordon likes the product if he likes the product if you want he'll do a commercial for you you can hire him for a day and it'll cost you a lot of money but he really likes your product and i think there could be something deeper here and i go i do too i just my gut felt it's like it's weird like i'm talking to the manager and like you i kind of had like a man crush on gordon a little bit because of the way he conducted himself and i don't mean the fuck you making somebody cry it was his commitment to his standards which i i related to and that's really where a lot of gordons they're like the the stuff you see on tv that's about people cutting corners.

1:21:18It's about people trying to send something out to the customer that's not up to snuff. That is not acceptable. And I'm the same way with that. So that I always related to Gord. So a couple of phone calls with the manager and we're like, well, we should probably, this seems like we're on the same page. Why don't we have a call with Gord? And this is during the pandemic. We scheduled a Zoom call. So for me, it was like about 8, 8.30 in the morning. And I'm sitting in my dining room and I like at one of these mugs right there, I have a coffee and I'm like nervous. I'm going to like talk to these guys and it's not a big deal.

1:22:00And I remember there sitting over on the cupboard was a bottle of bourbon. So all of a sudden at eight in the morning, I just grabbed the bottle. It's like one minute to the call and I pour a shot of my coffee and I put it down and I'm just sipping it. just to calm my nerves. And then I log on. And as soon as I log on, I'm looking at Gordon's giant face right in front of me. He's the only one on right now. And he's like, Danny. And I'm like, Gordon. And then his business manager and Jason joined. And the two of the poor guys didn't get a frigging word in edgewise. Gordon, I did. Yap, yap, yap.

1:22:44and we're i thought we were going to talk for like 20 minutes we're out for almost an hour and a half and gordon's like sharing his vision he goes i want to put in my restaurants he's like i can't do a gordon impression very well you did a great job mate don't worry british accent very well danny we're gonna cook risotto table side and i'm and he's like and he even said he goes listen with me he goes if you're flexible you get more than you bargained for and and that is true and because he's so busy that sometimes, hey, we're going to film this day. Hey, can we change it by two weeks because a shooting schedule got screwed up?

1:23:22And we do that, but then we get amazing stuff out of them. Gordon didn't have to put us on all his TV shows. They use our products on Next Level Chef. They use our products on Hell's Kitchen. They use our products on Food Stars, on Uncharted. he just did that normally you pay for these placements and um you know that matt abe does use our pans at restaurant gordon ramsay um and and likes them he just re-says like i need some more like great just send me a list happy to happy to help so and that's you know how we got paul he's like you know we we wanted to have this collection of really inspirational chefs people to inspire the home chef and make people want to cook.

1:24:08And he told us about Paul. And I don't even know if I'd heard of him at that point in the US. And then I had a call with him and fell in love with the guy. And I'm like, yeah. Yeah. And we have a couple other chefs that I can't say right now that are really impressive globally that are part of the Hexclad family that we're going to be announcing in the next couple of months, but that are on that level. Like Gordon's kind of, like we call him, you know, I didn't have a better term. So I was like, well, you guys are going to be kind of like the Avengers of coping. And I remember, and I told her, I was, I was actually at Gordon's house in Cornwall and we're having a glass of wine and I, and I go, and I go, but Gordon, you're, don't worry, you're Iron Man.

1:24:50And his wife goes, of course he is. oh that's amazing well so there's so much in that and it's such a good story and i think that i appreciate you do you you know talking about the having the bourbon before because i was more like questions being like i would be fucking shitting myself before a call with gordon he said it's quite it's quite reassuring but so you're you're afraid you're gonna fuck it up for really yeah oh god i'm gonna do that yeah yeah yeah no for sure the so so he's like paul was doing a lot of work with him as well and i've i was literally down in padstone actually down in cornwall about a month ago eating at paul's restaurant in um you know number six i don't know if you ever went there amazing i've been there yeah oh i know i think i'm gonna go in uh in august it's unreal you're in for a very very good treat what's your honest all the food down in Cornwall is incredible.

1:25:47But I'd love to go into, maybe if we pick like a mindset, I love going into like principles, so like almost like one sentences. So if we go through like a mindset principle that Gordon's taught you in business, like all life, what would you say that's been? You know, I'm not going to give Gordon the credit that he taught it to me. he didn't really, but what it did was it reinforced that what, what I believed was, was, was right. And I was, you know, here's this uber successful man. And really it's, it was about, I don't know if I can put it in the perfect word, but I can describe it. It's about loyalty and treating each person you come in contact with in professional settings with respect.

1:26:41And because I'll tell you, Gordon, this is no like no bullshit. He walks on, if we're going to film something, he goes up to every person on the set and introduces himself. And he's really good about knowing their names too. Maybe he doesn't remember them like the next day or a week later, but he goes through and he'll come up, Danny, Cole. He says your name. And he says hello to everybody, treats them with respect. And like even the thing with Paul, like Gordon's like, Paul worked for him. They lost touch for a few years, kind of reconnected. And, and we, you know, when we were talking about wanting these, I don't want to even call them second tier.

1:27:24There's only one Gordon Ramsay. So then these amazing chefs and he brought up Paul. He's like, he didn't have to bring Paul up. He didn't, you know, but he's very, very loyal to people. And that to me, I'm very loyal. I'm loyal to a fault. And I think Gordon is too. And that to me is why people stay with him for a long time. The reason why he isn't constantly searching for a new patron chef at RGR is because he's so good to those people and he shares the credit with them. That, to me, is why it felt like a really good match.

1:28:14I know people that have some celebrity partnerships, so to speak. They maybe do a quarterly call with them.

1:28:26I look down, my phone's ringing, and it says Gordon Ramsay. He'll shoot the shit about business, what's going on. sometimes it's just catching up how are you doing mate and you know or texting i'm about to you know i'm getting out of flight to dublin i'll call you know let's try to catch up in a day or two um you know people don't do that and and his concern for the company is genuine like he wants to know what's going on he's got ideas and they're not all good sometimes i'm like let me let me do the product ideas and you stick to this tv thing yeah yeah yeah but but it's good because we can like he busts my balls a lot and you always know if he likes you because he busts he busts your balls and um what do you mean by bust your balls like as in what's he what's he drilling you on because i think that's interesting oh we could be like like back in march he um he walks in he goes where had I been?

1:29:26I'd been to some trade show. I was just either in Miami or New Orleans or something. He was like, somebody didn't miss any meals in New Orleans. I'm like, Jesus Christ. Did you just fat shame me? Then I'm busting his ball. I'm like, listen, you need sensitivity trading. I bet you've heard that before. That's hilarious. you know so that type of stuff he'll like or he likes to talk like we did a thing in new york we just had a uh a really great pr uh me media event at the amex centurion club which just opened and and midtown manhattan and uh you know when you're like making fun of uh you know he's like listen everyone you all have to write an article about hex fact because danny apparently can't get a date well you gotta get this poor guy a day like he's he's just he's got so much charisma and he's he's super charming but he's but but that i don't know if you've seen the boiling point documentary you've seen boiling oh no if you want to like just watch that for an hour on youtube whatever it is but it's it's about how he how he made it and it's it's it goes back to 1999 his standards and it's like he was relentless with his standards and i try and approach this with this podcast is I have I have three three drafts of questions right and like it won't go until I've done three like draft one is just put a load of shit on the wall and then I refine but I've tried to apply a lot of that to to this and uh but then but then he is he's got that just that fucking cheek about him which is just it's just hilarious is there anything else he's he's he's or maybe what what is something he taught you that you weren't expecting to learn from partnering with then it's good tons.

1:31:14Yeah. You know, let's see. It's a good question. You know, in a way, I was not surprised by, uh, I mean, just, just the amount we see him. It's very clear, uh, his work ethic. Um, it's very, it became clearer the way he treats people. Um, It was, you know, so, you know, I've mentioned those, you know, what I think is like, he has a certain openness to ideas and opportunity. And that's something I wasn't aware that he did. And I kind of found that without even thinking about it too much that I was doing that in my life and it made it kind of like where you go oh maybe you know maybe what i'm doing is right because this guy's doing it at a much higher level than me and he is open to too many things that's why sometimes you miss you know you you you it's you very often some of the stuff he does it's not about greed like he said to me he's like i don't when he did this deal he's like i don't need the fucking money.

1:32:34He's like, I just did this, this, this, and this. I don't need the fucking money, daddy. He's like, I love the product. And that's really what's great about it. Because of that enthusiasm and that openness and the willing to take some chances, he has a few misses. But every time he opens a restaurant that doesn't make it, he's got RGR and Petrusse. you know, they are in London that have maintained their excellence for so long. Restaurants don't last 25 years, you know? And. Well, and he's got that. He's got the one in France as well. I think, and also, and also I think for listeners is I, I Paul was the one who taught me this when he came on the podcast is people forget that, that Ramsey has a full blown media company as well.

1:33:26Like he's within, within all of this, that all those programs, there's a lot of only just loads in this in the states but there's a big one over here like gino fred and gordon that's all produced by gordon that's not itv that is his own media company what is so has he made you work harder like or what is his when you say work hard like well like i know what we're talking there do you know what i mean um i think one thing i i gordon and i have in common maybe it's why we get along um and i don't know if i have it i know i don't know if I've ever seen anybody with the, with the work effort that Gordon has.

1:34:05Um, like he works nonstop, like, and I work a lot, like I get a lot of grief from my co-founder, you know, he's like, like I told him, Oh, like Friday night, I'm locking up the warehouse. I go, I just locked up the warehouse. So he goes, uh, so you're, um, so you were the last, last one there. I go, well yeah yeah he goes yeah that's pathetic and i'm like you think you don't need to be that guy anymore he's like why are you doing all it wasn't that late it was 6 p.m but it's you know friday during the summers you know a lot of people choose to work from home that day then even the warehouse we close it our offices are attached to our main warehouse we have a couple satellite ones sprinkled around the country.

1:34:56But, you know, and then like the warehouse, they leave around three, three 30 on that day. So, yeah, I'm the last one out. But I'm like, I don't think of it. And I think Gordon the same way when you enjoy it, it doesn't seem like work as much. You know, believe me, if you told me to come, I'm not a workaholic. I'm not going to help you like dig a ditch in your backyard. You know, well, I just want to be occupied. No, I'm enjoying growing this business. I enjoy the products that we produce. I both get a really warm feeling when somebody writes a great thing online about us. And I get my feelings for it a little bit when somebody's like, your fucking pen sucks, man.

1:35:42I'm like, ow. I do take it personally. And I think in that, I saw that with Gordon because you want it to succeed. But, you know, like, I know that like Next Level Chef in the UK, they only gave it one season. And though it may have hopefully a new life somewhere else, I know that bothered everyone involved, Gordon, Paul, because they felt like they know how hard they worked. And they didn't kind of get a chance to develop their audience yet because the show does very well here. and um you know but but the fact is you got to take those chances right yeah i think again it goes back to this this openness and this ability to try things and i think it is especially the this in the states you guys are way more entrepreneurial i think the british are quite especially there could be walk around a bit fucking moody all the time do know i mean as in like there's there's not as there's not that entrepreneurial um culture what are some of the hard sacrifices you've had to make to to get to where you are today like what are the things you've had which um which you may almost kind of regret if i'm all right to ask that if you don't want to answer it no that's a you know it's a very good question and it's um and it's not and there's like obvious answers and and i do want to make a comment because you brought up a really good point which is about you know we always talk you know what is it uh they all comment you know americans and british were like what brothers separated by a common language or whatever that uh yeah whatever that's and there is some americans are, I think, more entrepreneurial because Americans feel like they're a millionaire that's just been temporarily diverted, but they'll be there soon enough.

1:38:01They think that they can all do it at some point.

1:38:11It's almost in a way like, yeah, it's like winning the lottery, but it's not because you could actually have a hand in it. You're not leaving it all to chance. So there is this feeling of people, even if they're a little jealous, they see themselves in your success. They're going to be there someday. One thing I have noticed has been told to me a little bit, maybe Brits are a little more resentful when they see someone's success. Yeah, it's so interesting. it's the way I think this from what I've gathered and that's only just from going over to to to New York and my mate over there obviously I interviewed the guys at Athletic Brew but then I've got a mate who's working over there for a company called Workweek which is like building a huge media company and what he said and it's I think it's something similar to what Joe Rogan said is it's like in the states everyone thinks they can be the hero in their own movie yeah you whether that's good, bad or ugly, right?

1:39:15You believe that. Whereas in the British are like, nah, mate, we're too piss-taking, right? We're too, like Gordon saying, how much have you been eating? We're too much like that, right? It's too much like, well, you even want to be in your own movie. Like you're so big headed, like don't even bother. But then that's the kind of like, it's kind of piss-taking. But then when someone does actually succeed, you're right. There's a nice sprinkling of kind of potentially resentment there. you know what I mean yeah you know and and but the real part of your question was about like you know what you give up the sacrifices yeah um you know I because like we were self-funded um you know I spend to this day I spend every dollar as if it's my own because it is and it always has been and there's something about like people who raise bc money like and they don't spend it as if it's their own money and i fucking hate that when i when i hear about it you know i had a friend and the first thing he did was he's like well we need to have really nice offices and so with their money we tricked out their offices because we need to present a certain look to the public and i'm like fuck if you come to our offices right now they look like shit still because like to me that's money wasted or you know yeah we will do it we're probably in the position now we need a little nicer so i'm gonna redesign the lobby but but you know you have to to have your priorities.

1:41:01And when you prioritize things, there's going to be sacrifice. And there were personal sacrifices. And 16 and 17, for the most part, I was in a very, very good relationship. And though it took me a while after it to be over to see that the effect of me starting the business had, that destroyed the relationship. I made a choice, actually subconsciously, but I did make a choice to sacrifice that to build the company because I wasn't present as much as I needed to be. I wasn't as attentive. Whatever it is, we know it failed. So I did my share of not making it successful. So that was the sacrifice that I made during that time.

1:41:59And then part of it, we all get a little stubborn. I'm a little old school, like where a man's got to be a man and you suck it up and you don't talk about the fact that, holy fuck, I'm so worried that I've got everything invested in this. And I thought we were going to get an investor and they laughed at us. And I don't want to share that with my significant other because I don't want to feel foolish and just silly, you know, in a way, because somebody loves you there. They love the good and the bad, and they'll see stuff in yourself that maybe you're even questioning, like your stick to it, of this your, you know, and your passion.

1:42:38So like that was something that that was something major. And then the other stuff is like, is it really a sacrifice to build a company and you can't go shopping or you know what? There's no holiday this year. to me, those aren't sacrifices. That's not really anything you're giving up. More than I am now financially secure, I get excited at the fact that I'm providing opportunities for people that work for a great company and make a good living and that it affects their whole families because of that. That's the stuff that, and it sounds very like... But that's the truth. You know, that's the reason, you know, yeah, you have personal reasons, but that's what makes it really fun.

1:43:29If you're not doing all of that, then fuck, why not sell it? If you're just about, you know, collecting your money, sell it now and go live on a beach somewhere and enjoy it, you know? Have you got kids in this? Have you had kids? Have you had kids? No kids. which makes it easier to take these chances yeah oh yeah yeah for sure it's um like i've got a friend who i want to potentially get on board with this but you can't because the kids do you mean yeah so it's like is there's pros and cons do you is that a regret for you or no No.

1:44:14Well, listen, as a guy, I guess I could still have a kid. Yeah, that's very true. Yeah. But, you know, you always wonder about what your choice is. You know, I don't, Hexclad is not the reason why I don't have kids. You know, I've only, you know, we only started Hexclad in 16. So, you know, I, I would have already been pretty, a pretty old dad. So, um, you know, you, you just make choices in life, you know? And I think maybe, you know, we were conditioned to what we see. Like I never felt the, the, the need, like I must have a wife. I must have a kid. I saw some pretty unhealthy relationships.

1:45:03And I, and I remember saying like, if that's what marriage is about, I'm like, thanks for no thanks, you know? Um, but I love all the people that are happy, but I, but, but most of the people I know that are married, aren't all that happy. They fight, you know, they're not intimate, you know, and all my friends, like I talked about my high school buddies who bust my balls. I'm going to be where I'm flying to, to New Jersey and we're all going to go to the New Jersey Shore this weekend. We do it every year. So I'm flying in to see 11 guys, um, sleep on an air mattress in a three bedroom house. And they will all at one point go, oh, you're so lucky.

1:45:46You never had kids. And then I love my kids. I love my kids, but you're so lucky. So, you know, who knows what the future holds. Um, but, but I don't feel like I'd miss out by not having them. you know i have some briefs it's it's interesting so the reason sorry that was a bit probing but the the reason i asked is because i've i've asked it to there's three actual female founders who have built fucking huge brands over here one's grenade uh do you have grenade in the states the protein bars no they've got to the states but if they sell that yeah go on no i i know of it i don't okay yeah so i i asked you know i asked i asked jules that question she was like yeah that is actually a regret but then and but then they they actually saw the brand as their baby and then i asked that to another girl called from a brand called bound she was like having the kids made money but and the brand is my baby so this is quite interesting but you're so right like hetztad was before that um i'm loving this mate but i'm conscious of your time and it's monday morning for you so you're gonna have to crack on soon but there's a few more things i want to explore so what is your your grandma uh rosa i think is she's quite responsible i think what i loved is is what i read it's the first female head chef in the 1950s which is just mad if you were to cook her something tonight in a hex clad right and you'd have dinner with her tonight like what would you cook her first and second what would you like ask girls say to her?

1:47:22Interesting question. You know, God, what would I cook her? You know, she was like a simple cook. Like in the 1950s, like no American was going to eat risotto. You know, that was not, it was, you know, it was about fresh ingredients and simple, like a lot of red sauces, you know, so, and nobody made it better than her. So I think like if I was going to cook for her, I would, I would try to do, do her honor by, by, you know, wake up in the morning and spending that all day on her, on her red sauce. And, you know, and then, you know, it's funny, like she made really good fresh pasta, but preferred.

1:48:06She's the first one who taught me about the way different types of pasta hold sauces. And so she's like, oh, with the red sauce, she's like, I don't like fresh pasta. It slides off the pasta. She's like, I want dried pasta, but good dried pasta. This is my favorite pasta. She told me she comes outside of Napoli and you use this and it holds the sauce really well. So I think like I would try to cook her, say I cooked your go-to standard, but in my cookware. And because of that, I mean, because she was in the restaurant business and my mother was the youngest daughter, and both the middle and the eldest daughter, they went into the restaurant business.

1:48:49And in fact, my grandmother and my eldest aunt, they were in it together. My grandmother wound up having to start her own restaurant to be the head chef. and because women didn't get that opportunity. Not that. It's funny. Even now, in a way, I just was talking, had lunch with arguably the biggest female chef in the US last week. And I can't say her name right now, but we talked about it. She loved my thing, my statement about when, when cooking is unpaid, it's woman's work. And the minute you monetize it, it becomes a man's job. And that was, you know, very much the case for my grandmother. You know, she, you know, she was allowed to be, they called her the salad girl.

1:49:50That was her position. She was allowed to make salads in the restaurant. So that was it. And she was going to go no higher than, than that because it was like some old white dude with a pot belly in the giant chef's hat. That's who got the chef's jobs. And also my grandmother was uneducated. Her father made her quit school in the third grade to sell vegetables because he said, boys need education. You need to help support the family. So she didn't think she was smart enough, yet she was a very good businesswoman. I mean, she, she, I think she retired in 1981. So she had this restaurant from, and it was her second business from the fifties into the eighties.

1:50:35So, um, you know, I, so in that hard work, I, I, I, you know, that permeated through my family. And then also the idea, like the idea that there were jobs that were for men and jobs that were for women, that wasn't normal to me because I would go to my grandmother's restaurant when I was a child and the entire brigade in the kitchen, everybody was a woman, which was unheard of. I have a picture from a Christmas party in 1964 or something, and it's all women, one man, the bartender, in case some drunk got unruly. You had to hit him with the club they have behind the bar. But it was all women. Even the dishwasher was a woman.

1:51:17The sous chef was a woman. People used waiters then. Waitresses only worked in coffee shops, all women. So that was normal to me. And so I guess maybe that's one of the reasons why it's always been a passion of mine. And now the company that we try to promote the role of the female chef. We have the James Beard Awards here. So we're officially the cookware of James Beard, which will be announced shortly. But we really want to focus on their women's initiative, providing scholarships and support and mentorship to female chefs. That was important that we got to own that with them when we were deciding to work together.

1:52:06So yeah, that's something important. I think something my grandmother would appreciate if we talked about it today. it's almost like she was she was the bats that badass thing she was doing that in the 50s which like if you were to if we were to like drop ourselves into the 50s the whole like worldview then was so different so she was really pioneering back then to me to have a full brigade of female chefs which even now as you said now it's like there's still this huge disparity between as you say most most chefs are blokes it's a it is we're annoyingly still very much a man's world um yeah no that's that's it and it's funny you know i've never really put two and two together but you're right my grandmother was the first badass chef in fact i remember like my mother my mother was like you know the accident baby like 10 years after her her sister and when my mother was an infant, my grandfather, who I didn't know really, I only met him once, he showed up with his new girlfriend and told my grandmother that he was leaving and that he wanted to take, he and his girlfriend, they're going to get married and we want to raise my mother who was just six months old.

1:53:28And the story is that my grandmother, she came to the to the kitchen in the restaurant. And then my grandmother grabbed a cleaver and told him, you come and try to take my daughter and you're going to lose something much more valuable than a daughter. And yeah, and she scared him away with a cleaver and he left and that wasn't in anybody's, and then decided to raise three girls on her own and work full-time in the 40s and 50s. so yeah she's she yeah she's she's the badass that that cleaver thing could be a great well you probably wouldn't be allowed to do that could be a jokes facebook ad of you to do that we do we do have a new cleaver that just came out um danny i'm loving this mate but um we'll have to try to maybe do part two but my final question is i ask this to all guests but what is one um belief you have that most people would disagree with you on and that could be about life business whatever wow you asked some good questions i almost like i'm like this one needs it needs some some thought and um you know and i because i i never like to give the same answers that i see every entrepreneur or founder founder giving um you know because it is like the steeples are they every founder believes in themselves right every founder is taking a chance um you know and that's one thing um you know and and as i answer this because i'm trying to think what thing possibly would separate me i i would say this that So, talk to you first.

1:55:17It has no affection. I will answer that. This is a natural for the truth now. entrepreneurs and founders should be applauded for the bravery. and very few people know how difficult it is. And it's one thing to grow a business, to operate a business. Like no matter what, you know, how successful we get and no matter what member of our team grows the business, like maybe my growth team triples our business in the next two years. And it's amazing. they'll never know what it was like when cole and i were building cookware in the backyard um so no matter who they are they kind of like you know we baseball's big here sometimes we have an analogy like you know they they they started on third base they they weren't like at the plate swinging away and they weren't there on first base they weren't only cole and i were there for those parts.

1:56:19Everybody else came on third base. And we're not unique in that. So founders all do that. And maybe it's, I'm a founder and an operator, but there's a difference between an operator and a founder. And I think many operators, I think, consider themselves founders, especially if they came on somewhat early. What's the difference? Well, one, you operate a business. One thing, you founded it. Nobody was sitting at that Ritz Carlton listening to the Swedish businessman. And nobody was trying to negotiate steel prices when there was all these threats of new tariffs in the US. and nobody flew. When I got our meeting with Costco about them looking at the product, I was in Guangzhou, China.

1:57:21And they're like, can you be here? I think I had a, can you be here on Tuesday? And it was like Sunday. I mean, I jumped on a train to Hong Kong. I got on a flight, a coach flight to LA. I took a shower at that Admirals Club in LA, flew to Seattle, went to my meeting with them, got after the meeting, went to the airport, flew back to LA, got on the plane back to Hong Kong, got on the train from Hong Kong to Guangzhou and had continued my business up. And you just, that's the stuff nobody was there for. But having said that, I guess I thought what maybe people don't always say as founders and maybe what I think is separates me this knowledge that I'm in the grips with the fact that I don't know everything.

1:58:14And, you know, I want to think that I know my business better than anyone. And there's areas that I do, but knowing that I have to trust the talents of other people is hard because just like those other founders say, this is your baby. And it's like dropping your child off at university and you don't want your kid to see you cry, that life is changing and that you have an adult now, an adult that has to pave its own way, is her own way. That's something that understanding that I have adults in the room, talented, smart adults, and I have to let them do what they think is best. That is something maybe that took me a while to do, but I think I do have.

1:59:03And I see that with mixed results out. I see some founders who can't let go. And then I see founders that have let go too much. It's finding that perfect balance because ultimately you are the brand. So you need to have a level of participation that promotes continued growth. So, yeah. So just quickly, cause there's, there's a, there's a quote by David Ogilvie, which is a brand is the long shadow of a formidable person, which I love, but I think, but it's, but it's like, how do you, how do you separate that? Cause that's absolutely gold dust, which you just, I've kind of just got to quickly explore that.

1:59:49because it's like, as you say, the brand is almost the extension of Danny, but you need to have the flight of almost presence, perhaps the presence and awareness to kind of let go of not being in the weeds. How do you do that? Do you know what I mean? So I think this, understanding yourself and your intention, and intention is everything in a way. Because, yes, we all have the intention to make money and be profitable. Okay, that's like on the most basic, basic level. That's like you're hungry, so you want to eat. The intention, though, when you get into really formulating, what was my intention?

2:00:37My intention is always to bring game-changing, innovative products to the kitchen in that space. Could be a knife, could be a cutting board, could be an apron, could be cookware. Highly innovative products. Uncompromising quality. Incredible support from the team afterwards. And the intention to have a lifelong journey with you. And that's, to me, when I know those intentions, they're second nature, right? So I permeate those intentions. So everybody who works with me at the company winds up adopting those intentions, or they find that this isn't the place for me because your intentions are different than mine.

2:01:32But the ones that are there, they get those goals. And then that becomes very simple. Now it's just about rolling up our sleeves and making our intentions clear. Because we know, when you know that you're going, right, doesn't mean it's like an easy drive to get somewhere, but you need to know where you're going. You need to have that roadmap. And if you follow the map, you get that, right?

2:01:59Mate, I've absolutely loved that. I just, as I say, it's always one kind of central lesson pulled through it. It's this kind of presence as a superpower and just actually just getting off your fucking phone and just being more open to opportunity. So, yeah, appreciate it. Thank you. Oh, listen, it's my pleasure. I can't believe we've been on this long because I just enjoy talking to you. So it's great. Thank you. Thank you so, so much for listening to the podcast. I really, really do appreciate it. if you liked that episode only if you liked it please do give it five stars subscribe tell all your friends families foes next door but one cat dog whatever please tell everyone about this podcast it means the world to me and I really want to understand what your pain points are as the new wave of of challenger food and drink brands please do hit me up on linkedin search Dan Pope and hopefully we can together create a more meaningful and powerful podcast for the next wave of challenger food and drink brands Thank you so much.