How Game of Thrones and Braveheart Star Rose from Rock Bottom to Whiskey Barron, STORY MAN - James Cosmo

0:00Hello there and welcome to Hungry. Hungry is the podcast for the next wave of challenger food and drink brands looking to pour gasoline all over their growth. Each week we'll interview successful founders, thought leaders, unpack their lessons and provide you with a toolkit to scale super fast. I am Dan Pope, I am your host and without further ado, let's get started.

0:25Hi there guys, thank you so much for listening as always, it means the absolute world to me. Before we jump into this episode, I need a really big, big, big, big favour. I have pitched to some massive guests, humongous guests, and unfortunately they've said no because my subscriber count isn't big enough. Please, please, please just hit the subscribe button on Apple or Spotify or Follow. Ultimately it helps all of us bigger guests equals better conversations, equals hopefully better insights for you, which means you can scale hopefully faster with a little less stress as well. So please hit that subscribe button and yeah, enjoy this episode.

1:00Hi there guys, just a quick, quick little ickle interruption I am so, so, so gassed and thrilled to announce that Mackenzie Jones are extending their partnership with Hungry Beyond thrilled Who are Mackenzie Jones? Well, first and foremost, Billy is a great mate, known him for years Second, they are, well, FMCG recruitment specialists I know Recruiter probably gives you the ick rest assured they're not the negi norse heads who will pester you on linkedin asking you've had your breakfast yet i personally less recruit a more growth partner they are loved and adored and are trusted trusted by brands uh real superfood like he's saying hello fresh fever treat but why why reach out to mckenty jones very very simple if you want to launch brand into retail you need a head of sales speak to billy if you want to in-house your marketing activities with the head of marketing rockstar speak to billy or if you want to they really specialize in dtc so if you need someone who's going to really kind of pour gasoline on your dtc channel speak to bill or if you just want a general nitter natter chew the fat have a chinwagathon speak to billy he's a top bloke message him on linkedin or ask me for an intro via email and i will get that sorted thank you all there's a horror story in food and drink that absolutely no one talks about it surreptitiously scurries through the underbelly causing throbbing headaches wasted money huge amounts of pain dodgy barcodes so many brands do the hard work they create the product name the brand open the bank account and then they cut bloody corners online and they order a dodgy barcode not sort your barcodes out is like scoring your own goal before you've even laced your boots and got on the pitch it's a souffle of agro you know you've got to relabel products waste time i've even had a pal who's um who lost the planet organic listings they had the wrong barcodes but thankfully not all heroes wear capes gs1 uk are the superhero and they are the solution barcodes from gs1 uk are globally recognized uh trusted and accepted by all retailers and marketplaces giving you the confidence to sell your products anytime anyplace anywhere but gs1 uk are so so much more than that they really are kind of a spring well of advice for buccaneering brands 95 % of their community your smes you can get free tickets to events and invites to talks big big picture opportunities you'd like to pack organic boots and sainsbury's and help you know with advice like exporting it's just so so so much and look don't say don't treat you and there's an oh so special offer through the podcast get 20 of your first year's membership with gs1 uk by using the code hungry 20 at checkout thank you so much hello there people and listeners of the hungry podcast I'm absolutely delighted to welcome James Cosmo onto the Hungry podcast.

3:47James had a glittering acting career, featured in some of my favourite films and films we'll all know, Braveheart, Trainspotting, Troy, Head of the Night's Watch and Game of Thrones. I think you're a finalist in Big Brother. They've had a very long history. But more importantly and more recently, James has launched a whiskey brand called The Storyman. which is we've actually got a couple of bottles in front of us right now it's a convival spirit if I ever said that right convivial there we go good start inspired by James Cosma Hanscraft and Annadel distillery and shared by you we'll probably have to maybe try some shortly but gorgeous branding and what I'm so excited to explore to you today is as we were talking about before we hit the record button is I really believe every brand is a story there's the guy from that book uh uh sapiens i don't know if you've read sapiens oh yeah you're an audio yeah yeah yeah he says a business is just a fiction yeah you know it's really interesting it's like the way that we buy into you've got to buy into it as a founder you've got to sell sell your story to get investors on to get people on to negotiate oh yeah that's right and i really believe the brand is a story it's the stories the lynch or the linking thing between the founder's soul and brand yeah and the bigger the bigger thing almost like the brand and the packaging is the vehicle for the story yeah um but where but where i want to start is um i'd in conversation for this i was a re-watched braveheart re-watched train spotty and you're a poor man you must be sick of the sight and everything yeah i feel like i've spent a lot of time with you jake we've even hit the recap button but um the opening scene in train spotting is is one of the the most powerful opening scenes i think in a film you've for this as you watch it on youtube it's it's iggy pot they're running down uh the edinburgh high streets and i actually listened to a podcast with as ivan walsh or erving erving walsh who is the writer of trains and he said the opening scene is everything can he talked about the famous boogie night scene john travolta you've got the background um where i'm going with this is i listened to another podcast you did and you said i'm an actor to my bones so i can't be anything else even if it's hard yeah and i'd love to like if we could pick a specific day in when you were growing up in glasgow that could be like your opening scenes of this conversation right and i want to use that to like explore like why I'm an actor to my bones I can't be anything else what what would that opening scene be for you do you think James um well I I um I get into acting when I was 17 years old and at Alesco when I was 15 I hitchhiked down to London when I was 17 um my mom supported us she worked in the singer's factory in Clydebank, my sister and I.

6:56And I sort of wheedled my way in. My father was an actor who lives down there in London, down here. And I sort of wheedled my way in, pretending I was an actor. Been pretending ever since. I didn't go to drama school, didn't do anything. I learned from people that really knew what they were doing and kept my eyes open and watched that. But it wasn't the first job or the second. No, it was the second job I did, which was a film called The Battle of Britain. And I played a fighter pilot in that. And I had a Triumph Vitesse convertible. You know, the film was paying well and I got this car. And we were filming up in Cambridge and I was whizzing down the A1 or whatever in this convertible.

7:47and I thought I don't want to be anything else this is just beautiful I love it I don't want to do theater I want to do movies that's what I wanted and that's what I stuck to that's what I did I suppose so the first question is is there's a lot of people wanting to be an actor yeah a lot of people wanting to be a movie star there's a lot of people and there's a big difference there's a big difference yeah yeah what is the difference between wanting to be an actor and a movie star in your definition? Well, I think people want to be movie stars because they don't know what being a movie star is.

8:23I have observed and had a slight, I'm by no means a star of anything, but I've observed, I've seen it firsthand and it's not particularly enjoyable or gratifying to be a film star. That doesn't really mean anything. You're just someone that's recognised in a film. What does that mean? It doesn't mean it. It means fuck all. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Being an actor, people saying, God, I love the character that you played, you know, and I really believed in that character. You brought some sort of life to what was written on a page. You brought that person to life, and he seemed real to the audience. That's what being an actor is.

9:08Being a movie star. Fuck that. Yeah. Absolutely. and so you wanted to be an actor not a movie star absolutely yeah always have been oh i've always thought that they and it's not through some sort of reverse egotism but i've always thought that that um celebrity if you like is the collateral damage to what you do as a film actor it's just something that happens you know some people think that you that that you are that character that you are that heroic character you're not you're just someone that that pretends to be that heroic character i was listening to a podcast yes as a site said maybe a bit like inception a podcast about how to create a podcast yesterday and there's a guy called tim ferris who's now a huge podcaster he's had the kobe bryant on the basketball player he's had arnold schwarzenegger on really yeah and he purposely set up the podcast in 2014 so that it was anonymous so people wouldn't see what he looked like uh-huh now 10 years later that podcast got big and he's like i'm now not famous quote unquote he's not like he's not like anna decapio or a few in a second but he goes into a co-working space in new york and most tech founders will know who he is right and he was like it's fucking hideous all i wanted to do was do a podcast yeah and now i've got all this collateral damage as you so yeah said to go along with it it's almost like fames is seeing people look for or crave to have and i think essentially it's like icaracy flies too close to the sun when do you actually get it like oh yeah it's not yeah it's not what is all made up no you're absolutely you're absolutely right dan it's um uh i mean i was up in edinburgh on sunday there and i was walking up it's the the fringe you know so it's really busy there's lots of stuff going on you know and it was going through the crowd and things and and somebody shouted my name and just grabbed me grabbed my jacket you know that's you think what is that about what is that they wanted to click it's extremely it's it's weird so that's just a tiny little thing imagine i remember from when we were doing brave art um eeson who you know he was a baby in a pram and we were staying out in this little village called colliney and we were just outside dublin and we walked down from our apartment into the village a little beautiful village and we were just taking the little one for a walk and some fresh air and then we're going to get something to eat and mel gibson pulled up and uh his driver pulled up outside this restaurant and we just said hi like that and we walked on and he went in uh to the hotel with his wife and by the time we turned around at the short street and came back there was a crowd of maybe 50 80 people standing outside the restaurant looking in the window and he came out he'd only been in there 10 minutes he came out with his wife and get in the car and they drove off you know like what kind of life was that no wonder they buy rad she's it's hideous a thousand miles from anywhere i mean i mean i mean but but to then tell you the counter side to that i remember i was working in a pr agency as an intern when i was like 21 to almost 10 years ago now and i was just i kept i was so bored i was like fuck this is gonna go for cigarette breaks it's probably the best cigarette break of ever and i went outside and i saw this small diminutive kind of man not diminutive just a short kind of guy in all black anyway i turn around he turns around it's ricky gervais right and the office is my favorite program of all time i genuinely thought it was fine for me he got the black cab the black cab was darting off um i generally thought it was okay for me to run down the cab knock on the window tell him i love the office and ask for a picture i was thinking i went into the office i think people must have just thought i'd had like the best shag of my life or something because i was walking around the office like oh my god i'm buzzing oh what happened i was like i just had a picture of your face but it's like the other side of the coin is the obsession with celebrity and we we know these people we think we know these people more than we actually do yeah even though we've never met them yeah it's such a weird thing it's like i think i know joe rogan because i've listened to hours and hours and hours and hours and hours of yeah yeah as i have yeah you know like and this what they were saying this podcast just says it's like you may spend three hours a week with joe rogan in your ears but you may only see your mum or dad yeah 20 minutes a week yeah it's quite a weird situation yeah and have a much more intellectually um stimulating uh interaction with joe rogan than you would your mom and dad yeah it's it's mad what so so you just to kind of go back so you said you wanted to be an actor from from from day one yeah and that's that's a really strong why right so i think if i'm right in saying i'd listen to somewhere that you were you were sat with your wife having a curry and oh yeah well mouth cool yeah so i want to go back back to the kind of those early maybe 10 15 years of your career right yeah yeah when you hadn't had that and sorry this is being kind of speculative but that big shot right yeah how do you keep going in that period or what are you saying to yourself that's the that's that's the the one of the the core elements dan is that when for most actors male or female when when they start it's it's incredibly tough especially nowadays it's it's horrendous trying to get a job and trying to get a job that pays anything because there's so many people that just want to be in front of that camera they will do anything to work for freedom whatever so it's very very tough for everyone and so i always thought that i would always work i would always work i've never i'm 75 now i've never taken a penny from the government not one fucking penny although i get a pension now but i've paid huge amounts of tax so i'm just getting a little bit back but i never took any benefits um because of my circumstance i know a lot of people have to take benefits but I didn't have to I could go I could go away and walk you know so I worked on the roads which I really enjoyed I like to say I built the Clydeside Expressway not completely alone but I did help um so I worked at anything that could they could keep me going um but I never thought that as an actor I never thought that I was giving up you know that i'm oh i'm not an actor i'm a laborer or i'm i'm working in a bar or a restaurant or anything bodyguard even anything um to earn money because i was as an actor i was observing life just from a through a different lens i was observing life through the lens of a laborer of a barman or whatever but i was still observing people and one day i thought i'm i might i might use that i might use something that that has gone into my head subliminally about the way people behave so observe observe observe and so i never felt that i wasn't an actor i was like an actor who was not acting at the moment but still getting information about my job so you're almost being that's it's almost that state of like instead of like doing and thinking almost like being and it's Rick Rue has talked about this, is you're not, I am suddenly creative.

16:53You're a creative being. He talks about being creative. So whether you're doing the laboring job or you're doing the bodyguarding job, is that all you can kind of use as fodder? Yes. Pull into acting. Absolutely. If you go to drama school and you spend three years there with kids the same age as you, well, you do learn. You learn a lot about the classics. You learn a lot about stagecraft, but you learn fuck all about life. Are there any examples of some of those jobs that you've pulled into? I'm just going to follow my curiosity. Oh, all the time. You've pulled into a role. All the time. All the time.

17:32Characters that you play and you think, where did that come from? and you might not be able to specifically identify that that person or that trait or whatever but you know that came from observation at some point yeah so so just go back so so you i'm trying to like follow that plot out the steps leading up to this med bell gibson call which then gave you the break and braveheart so you said you were a bouncer a um a bodyguard laborer dozens of jobs dozens of jobs dozens of jobs yeah did you ever have a moment when you thought sort of fuck this is it going to work out and the reason i asked that is people listen to this podcast they'll have a food and drink brand yeah and i think a lot of success is just sticking in there it's just it's just all it is it's like if you just stick at something long enough it's gonna work but it's but what did you ever have like a day of doubt or how did you yeah you know when i talked to young actors i'm working with or whatever and i often funnily enough i i use that word stickability you stick at it you keep going you wake up in the morning and you think fucking i'm just you know i'm such a loser honestly i'm just getting nowhere but you get up and you keep doing it and you keep doing it and you keep doing it and eventually those walls start to crumble because the world the universe realizes he's not giving up he's just getting there and it happens it does happen so many people get knocked back a dozen times you should say come on bring it on knock me back a few more times i'll fucking show you what i'm made of and that's what makes of difference hi there guys super super quick one um i write a weekly newsletter called hungry friday feast it goes live at 8am every friday i'm pouring my soul into this bad boy it's probably my favorite creative endeavor i've ever done i basically pick apart all the biggest lessons all the biggest learnings from all the wonderful guests and throw it into a feast or a newsletter we've got over a thousand two hundred subscribers come and join the party i'm going to put a link in the show notes is right at the top and subscribe and if you are already a subscriber please just forward it on to a friend do the amount of favor it would mean the world to me anyway back to the old episode boys and girls you can really bend reality to where you want it to be but it's just the universe will conspire to make it happen it will i'm absolutely sure of that providing you're willing to not give in is there's the quote which i've talked about with the last couple of guests is gradually then suddenly i think it's earned ernest henmingway i have to go because it's gradually gradually gradually your career you're doing the laboring you're doing the uh the the jobs you're doing the odd job here and there gradually gradually suddenly the mel big a gifton phone call right yeah so so yeah people think it was a mel gifton phone call it wasn't it yeah it was all that stuff i've done before yeah exactly trigger that thing that happened you need those little yeah you've got to things you've got to yeah almost i have that with this podcast i'm just thinking just each day one new one new person that's all i'm going yeah if i get one new person in yeah and they like it they'll tell the friends yeah keep doing that absolutely um and i think that's reassuring for people listening but the so what were some of those those those early roles and like were you making money were you yeah was it hand to mouth like what was that what did that feel like i was young age yeah when i made money what did i want to do with it i wanted to spend it i had a great time i was i was in london when it was all happening it was it was fantastic so you you you know you're in that whole crowd of young actors doing different stuff looking for different stuff it was it was amazing okay and then and then mel gibson calls you yeah this is this is a few years later because i was in my early 40s so what so in your 30s to to the 40s what was that like was that i was doing I mean, you know, I was doing jobbing work.

21:41I did a series called Roughnecks. We did two seasons of that about the oil rig, the early days of the oil rig workers in the North Sea, which was really enjoyable. You know, I was building a career. I was becoming known as a good go-to actor for certain types of specific sort of roles, you know, sort of hard-nosed stuff. um yeah so i was i was doing okay but but when ethan was born um annie my wife was she was she went straight back to work at the bbc because we were just a little um one bedroom flat and twicken them and i hadn't been working and uh so she was the bread the breadwinner for us and i was which was lovely i was looking after my son you know i'd you know it was great you know it's like six months just looking after your baby it was perfect fantastic yeah i wouldn't give out for anything and at the beginning you said all i wanted to be was an actor not a movie star yeah and you were you were i suppose acting you were doing acting roles yeah that role of the baby scene you were i suppose as you said in a small flat in twickenham were you happy at that stage yeah yeah absolutely Absolutely, absolutely, yeah.

22:57It was challenging at times, but not as challenging as a lot of people have their lives, anything but. I was very healthy, my family were healthy, I had nothing to complain about. And I didn't, I felt myself very privileged. Yeah, it was a good time. I was very happy at that time. I've always been happy with less than more. there's a delicious lesson in that for listeners and it's being if you fall in love with the process you ultimately win you know because you loved acting whether that was acting on a small stage or acting in bloody braveheart or acting in game of thrones yeah you loved acting so even though where so many people will go into something thinking well i need to be in the next fucking harry potter i need i need that i need that external goal it's just and it's the same with food and drink bands it's like people like i want that big exit i want that listing i want that to sell that business for loads of money which is fine but if you go into thinking that then you're fucked because it's going to get tough yeah and if you don't love the process if you don't if you're not waking up every day as you say when when the when you love it so much the nose don't just bounce off you like water yeah it's very easy to stick at it right yeah and then ironically that's when the big break comes right yeah yeah that's so interesting so then for listeners just describe the call for Braveheart.

24:22I think that's really... Well, I'm a... I love curry. Same. What's your go-to? I love food. I love food. I like prawn dansac. I love the lentil-y sort of... The sweet and sour dish. I've never had prawn though. Yeah, yeah. King prawn dansac is really nice. And chicken is like... And I love lamb. I've got some Indian friends who might baving paminda and paminda cooks a lamb slow cooked lamb dear god and it's just fantastic but she won't she says oh come around come around i'll show you the recipe i'll do it she never does she know she never will it's her secret and that's cool that's fine with me as long as she makes it for me um but yeah anyway i love curry we love curry and i'm i was at work uh living uh off uh what Annie could earn, which was fine.

25:21But we had a futon that me, Annie and the baby slept in, in one room. And then in the other room, we had a rocking chair that Annie's mum lent us and a TV. And that was about it. But the treat of the week was a curry on Saturday night. And in those days, like they would show a late night film starting at 11 or something, I suppose, to catch people coming back from the pub. And so I'd ordered in the curry and it came and I sat down with some film I wanted to watch. I always remember it was 20 to 11, you know. And I got it all. I've got the tray on my lap and all that. The baby's fast asleep in the bed and all that.

26:07And he said, it's good. So the phone rings. I said, fuck's sake, the film's just about to start. And the curry's on my lap. I said to him, that'll be my pal Dominic. and he'll be in the pub pissed and he'll come over for a bite. I said, just tell him. I'll see him tomorrow at lunchtime in the old anchor. And, you know, I want to eat my kind of shit. Yeah. So he should lift the phone and he says, hello. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just hang on.

26:39Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

26:48and it was a little kitchenette and she went into the kitchenette and shut the door all this stuff i lifted up and i was sure it was dominic and i said hello and this voice said hey jimmy it said mel i went mel he went yeah mel gibson i went oh fuck you really it's mel gibson because i'd met him about six months before in a general meeting we call it where you just meet people in the general meetings he was thinking he might be making a film in the uk wanted to meet some British actors, da-dee-da. That was what I was just spending 10 to 5 minutes with him. Right. And that's a common thing in industry.

27:23Yeah, it can be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And anyway, he just said, I've been watching your show reel and do you want to play Campbell? And I said, go, man, I'd love to. And he said, great. He said, I'm flying over tomorrow. I'll see you when I land. When I get in. And that was it. Boom. There you go. That changed everything. Yeah. So what does it feel like as you sit there on the sofa and you tuck into your prawn dance app. What's that feeling inside? I don't know if it was a prawn dance app. Oh, yeah. Probably a chicken madras or something at that time. I always remember I looked out and the moon was there and I thought, what time is it?

28:01And I looked and found the clock, 22 to 11. So this changes everything, I guess. It was amazing. I love that. It's just a great story. and just, it's that gradually then suddenly, gradually then suddenly, gradually then suddenly. I'll tell you another instance when I was doing Jack Ryan. Just to sit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When I was doing Jack Ryan. Was that a recent one? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was, it's a huge show for Amazon. I think it's the biggest, most expensive show, in fact. And my agent phoned me, I was sitting out there, and my agent phoned me, and she said, I've just had a phone call from the States.

28:48I said, okay, what is it, Olivia? And she said, it's from Jack Ryan, the producers of Jack Ryan. I went, uh-huh. Now, to explain, when you do a big series like that, if you're not a big name, you know, you go through a process of so you've got all the different boxes to tick you know you've got not so much the directors in America but the producers, the production company, the network you've got to tick all these boxes and you know there's other people that are doing the same thing for the same part you know and it gets narrowed down and narrowed down and then maybe there's just three of you or two of you and they decide she said it's a straight offer it's a completely straight offer I went wow really she said yeah it's a huge part she said I just don't understand it she said but anyway she said the producers want you the network wants you and most importantly John Krasinski wants you I said who's John Krasinski he's the guy he's the guy that's playing Jack Ryan the office I said I've never seen the office the American office anyway flash forward the first time I was in Budapest first time I was working with John and Krasinski and John came up and we were talking to me and he said do you know why we asked you to do this I said I'd love to know this I've no idea he said my wife and I what's her name Emily Blunt were sitting reading the scripts there was 8 episodes reading the scripts for this season and we just finished the 8th script And John said, so who do we get to play Luka Gotyarov, this Russian master spy?

30:41And he said, Emily just said instantly, James Cosmo. And he said, yeah, you're right. I've never met Emily Blunt in my life. Never met John Krasinski in my life. Don't know anything about it. How does that happen? It happens from gradually, gradually, gradually, gradually. And they just flicked the switch. And that's all. so if it's for people who are listening to this who are on a walk or a run and they've either got a brand we now have listeners that do not are not just food and drink it's people who just people are hungry who want to do good things yeah who are struggling who are thinking fuck this like what what's one piece of wisdom you could give to them with everything you know if you believe in your heart that you're doing something worthwhile and that enhances your life and other people's lives then if you know that you have a a moral and ethical goal to do something then do it and do it fearlessly with courage and know that the universe will conspire to make that happen because you know it's like the ant at the dam what you think I can't well you haven't met me yet really it just takes that because that attitude you know we all emote who we are inside and if you have a real belief in something I'm sure you've met people you think god this person really is you know they're on a mission to do something they're impressive this guy is impressive this woman is impressive and what they do.

32:21We emanate things. And if you have that in your mind and you know that you're coming from a decent moral and ethical place and that you want success and that success is going to reverberate through your family, your employees, all those people, I think the universe will conspire. God will conspire to help you. And no amount of hindrance and barriers will be able to stop you because you will do it it's linking this to the brand that's in front of me story man it's like every man has a story they tell themselves and if the story you tell them yourself is one not necessarily of like positivity where you're walking around buzzing your tits on all the times that's just not life right but the story you tell yourself of i can achieve something greater than yeah and i've just got to keep going absolutely and you know i'm i'm a great admirer of Quakers and the most Quakers sorry the Quakers the Society of Friends okay yeah yeah the remarkable people hugely unsung to a great extent you know there are still a lot of them around but Cadbury and Fry and Browntree and all those people they were all Quakers and the one thing that they brought to their business was that I remember reading somewhere that you would be hard pressed to know the difference between the man who owned the company and the man who worked for the company because the man who owned the company was not concerned with a wonderful carriage to drive in and beautiful horses and elegant clothes he was interested in building a business that benefited him, his family, his employees, and the greater society.

34:13And those people took people that had been working in horrible cotton mills and dreadful positions. They built the Cadbury Village. Cadbury Chocolate. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And Roundtree Sweets. Absolutely. Those people, all Quakers. And they built new housing for their workers. They educated their children. They had a huge and profound impact on society. You know, housing for the dispossessed and the poor people in the East End of London, all Quakers. But they were terrific businessmen, but they had a moral and ethical purpose to what they were doing. yeah it's it's it's mad how those there has to be this bigger why and i as i said to you before we hit the record button james is for for challenger from drink brands and founders watch braveheart like there's a lot of lessons in that as as being a founder it's almost like william wallace it and the founder's journey are like intertwined you've got the scottish almost like the challenger brands they're the they're the david you've got the english who are the goliath who for in our language is sort of the the mars the pepsico the unilever um will wallace has a strong why obviously his wife gets murdered by the the english he has it he has that he has that big fucking fire burning in burning in his soul i think a lot of founders have that they've got to have that that relentless fire in their soul of course you do there's that famous scene which uh i love when he when he rallies rallies the troops together you know that um what are he on horseback yeah he's on horseback that's one of the best yeah what's it if anyone watch i'll put it in the show notes watch four minutes out on youtube if like if you that will get you out of bed but that is just insane so yeah but that's leading mobilizing people people listen to this have to get teams together they have to get they have to convince supermarkets to take a part on them there's so much in that yeah and then there's that bit and i think it's when you're trying to go into the uh i think it's the casting you're when you know when you're you're like a shield and you're battering down that oh yeah yeah that is that is the founder's journey every day is i genuinely believe you're getting up i've got this with this podcast suddenly my friends with brands you're running it a brick wall yeah no one's there to support you just need to just keep going and i think i i just it's such a good film for for brands to watch actually and to get them to keep going um but what i want to talk about is how how how you prepare for a role right so because it was campbell the role yeah right um how how did you prepare for that because people see a smidge right they see they see i saw the film it's a two hour three hour film yeah what what's the prep what what do you do in the run-up to that first day on set well i uh i mean some actors like to sort of deeply immerse themselves as Daniel Day-Lewis method actors or whatever, to deeply immerse themselves in the role.

37:25That's not me. I think for me it's a more subliminal process. You know, you read the script a few times, you start, and subliminally and maybe when you're lying in bed, falling asleep, you think of, imagine that character. What was he like? What sort of life did he lead? You know, how did he regard living? What value did he have on life, on other people's lives, on his life? How desperately would he cling on to that? Or would he not? Were those people very different all those questions that you ask yourself and then you have the the the physical side of it you know i can ride horses pretty good anyway but you know going out and riding horses all day and and rehearsing fight scenes it gives you a sort of physical manifestation of of what they were like you know and so that all blends into one you know and then you have your first day on the set you're you're like a jelly you're just so nervous but that passes really quickly and then you just get into the the core of the work when you say method acting so that's that's almost like keith ledger in the joker isn't it so yeah that's right all came from stanislavsky you know what's what are you actually doing so you're literally walking around like today pretending you're for the fucking joker just about yeah yeah yeah i know i remember brendan I said, what was it like to work with Daniel Day-Lewis on Gangs of New York?

39:02And he said, Avesham, wait, he just, he had Eminem in his earphones, and he used to sit outside his Winnebago sharpening lines all fucking day. You know, just sitting Daniel alone just now, you know. Was there on set, they are the actor? Yeah, I mean, when he did My Left Foot, you know, he spent all his time in a wheelchair and having to get carried to the wheelchair and things. that was uh you know but if that's how you and he's a magnificent actor um if that's how you want to approach it and and do it what works for him it sure does you know he's he's one of the finest actors ever um so that's great boimi our beloved sponsor are helping build the fastest growing challenge of food and drink brands look if you're a small brand just starting out and need your first indie stockists, your first 100 stockists to wholesale, Boemi are the platform to categorically speed that up.

39:59But if you're a big brand wanting to get bigger, Boemi are also insane. They make field sales marble smooth, silky slick. They're just epic. Ollie's, Ollie's been on this podcast twice actually. They saw a 29 % uplift in sales when using Boemi to check major malt listings availability. Insane. 29 % uplift by downloading an app. Insane. Lucky saying, my boy Aaron Duff, who's coming on this podcast in a couple of weeks, weeks he uses it to manage a team of 30 people and they've like you say have unlocked 500 draft listings by using boemy look you've got to get involved with this stuff it's absolutely insane and it will categorically change your life it's just the sickest platform i use it all the time islands there's a lot of empathy i think what i'm like so why i'm so excited about this conversation right is i've interviewed so many founders in food and drink right and i and i know kind of it's hard but i kind of know the roadmap map to build a great brand i've had a hundred conversations but i've never had a conversation like this but i almost think there's a lot of empathy what you've said there you're like almost thinking about how x character would think in this situation or how they respond to that would they let go of that it's like a there's a lot of empathy in that and i think that in is is such a vital skill in everything for our listeners in terms of being able to see what that other person's feeling thinking and you can almost apply that to leadership so yeah yeah um so so you go on you go on the first day on set and i just have curiosity and like how long would it take to i think i hear stories where that on set is like redentlessly tough and working conditions it's redentless it's a lot less repetitive like what does it say that fighting scene that infamous fighting scene yeah how long does that take to film Oh, we spent on specifics.

41:48You have to remember that the battle scenes that we filmed in Ireland, they had about eight hours of battle scenes, just fights, that they cut down and cut down and cut down and got the best bit. So we spent half of the film doing just battle scenes, just fighting. so it was you know it it was um physically it was hell you know you what you're riding about on a horse you're throwing a sword around you're having these what's wrong with that you know so you're tired at night yeah big deal you know um for people that say it's very arduous they've never been down a fucking coal mine yeah yeah yeah so again that's it that's that's arduous because my grandfather was a coal miner and uh my uncles were all coal miners um yeah so uh swings and roundabouts but believe me acting of any kind ain't as tough as that yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah in one i there's a quote from danny boyle and we'll get on to danny boyle but for listeners he's the director of train spotting uh slumdog millie there i think did a few other amazing films as well but he's got a quote and it says to be a filmmaker you have to lead you have to be psychotic in your desire to do something people always like the easy route you have to push through to push very hard to get something unusual something different again back linking this back to food and drink founders is a lot of our guests are founders uh so not get more guests are founders but they're having to be that sort of religious psychopath that person who believes themselves what what are some of the leadership lessons you picked up from mel gibson as when he was directing that you think could help listeners because he would always go the extra mile you know if things were tough he would he would he would he would be the first one there the first one they are doing it you know if everyone was exhausted at the end of the day he was the one that was saying right we're going to do this scene because we need to do it it's going to be a fantastic scene everybody up let's go he was the one that was in front you know really and like like that famous book says you know the leader eats last he made sure everyone was okay and up for it before he fed himself that was not literally yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah he was he was he was very much um follow me and it's going to be great that's so interesting so it's almost like like in real life William Wallace when he's saying me, it's like he was actually doing that he was very much the same, very much the same is there anything you didn't, I asked this to a guest the other week whose business partner is Gordon Ramsay actually, oh yeah I love speaking to people who are formidable and have hung out with formidable people, it's just interesting is there anything that you didn't expect to learn from Mel Gibson that kind of took you by surprise maybe something subtle or something

44:54I think actually Mel is quite a shy person. And just through circumstance and through his profession and what he loves doing, he has to be gregarious and be out there and enthusiastic. But I think he's obviously, should I say introverted, not shy, but introverted. And he's a deeply religious man, which is absolutely fine with me. But I didn't realize how much his faith impacted on his everyday life. And his generosity is extraordinary. Generosity not only in not gifts, but he was generous with his time. to lots and lots of people. He would always have time to talk to actors to discuss what they were doing.

46:02That was never the question. It was always, you know, if you said, Mel, he was always there. And I remember we were doing my death scene and he came up and he said, it was just after lunch we were going to shoot it so it was in the afternoon. and he said, Jimmy, he said, do you know the cheapest thing on this set? And I said, I've got no idea. What do you mean? He went, it's the film in the camera. He said, use as much as you like. Just do it. Just go for it. And that was, psychologically, that was really smart because it took the heat, the nerves out of it. And I knew that I could have this great big film crew all standing around and I could shoot that scene I could just keep saying I'd like to do another one I'd like to do another, I could do that for the next six hours and of course the heat was off and we did it in an hour, it was all done yeah I don't know psychological, not a trick but it was psychological, it's changing yeah it's changing the the frame like I remember I used to work for a brand and again I had a playlist for a food drink lens and I used to get super nervous going to speak like the big retailers and someone said someone said to me it's like don't forget that like it's probably it's quite crass right it's like don't forget that that buyer's probably taken a shit in the last 25 or 4 hours yeah and it's just like oh yeah i'm just speaking to human being yeah but that's a great lesson in leadership yeah so so how many uh and as i was saying about noah uh hararia whatever that wrote sap you know everything is a always these brands are a a story you know it's just someone else has got he's acting out his thing that he believes in and you're doing your thing you know nothing is you know that brick wall isn't really a brick wall it's just your perception yeah i can apply that to my life now i'm trying to get um more like revenue from the podcast i've got this like mental block i think what i'm learning from you james is just just kind of fucking smashed right yeah so just i want it just out of curiosity here so so what do is it common thing that actors get really nervous on set is that what why would you guys get nervous is that just because you're you're basically doing yeah i mean you have to be nervous you have to you know if you if you if you find yourself going on to a set and being the coolest guy there now you might look the coolest guy there but inside you are thinking oh i really hope i don't fuck this up i really do and i hope i remember the lights and i've got the tag all those things um and but you have to have that because as soon as you walk onto the set it's the same with with being on stage you're nervous you're nervous you're nervous and then they go you're on and it changes and all that nervous energy becomes performance you know you you you're working at 40 percent more than you are in when you're normal you know because those that adrenaline that excitement as it's it's uh solidified into a into performance into that character that you are playing and you have to have that if you go on set thinking it's fine this is easy it's going to be a terrible performance you're done i mean i had the same thing of doing quite a bit of public speaking over the last year and before i was terrified and where i've kind of i still if i might if i'm not fucking shitting myself yeah what i'm actually worried and i believe what you've said there is amazing for listeners it was like if you're nervous that's your extra 40 mate oh lean into that absolutely yeah yeah yeah so so but what would you be nervous about is that about letting the director down because as i always think well with a film like they've got so many takes yeah i know i know you you would think yeah you would think yeah you know if someone said look you can do this a million times but you need it you need to be nervous you know you need to feel unsure of your footing because that makes sure that your balance is really right you know that that your own song that's i think it's just a natural thing of of performance that's a great aphorism be unsure of your footing yeah make sure your balance is right i love that james in terms of let's go into into train spotting you know and we're going to go on to the wisco so i'm just really enjoying this but um you i read somewhere and asked i think it was in the sun and you said, I was privileged to be in Braveheart and Trainspotting.

50:53They were both very different movies and did very different things for Scotland. I don't know if you can remember saying this. Yeah, probably. That doesn't make one better than the other, but Trainspotting has an amazing contrast from Braveheart and very refreshing too. Yeah. And I watched both films back to back. Trainspotting, I think they came out a year apart, maybe two years ago. Yeah, California. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're both Scottish. i mean i suppose train spotting pulls you into the dark underbelly of scotland and and braveheart shows you the the camaraderie of scotland almost the kind of the the cheeky personality of scotland i would say in so many ways but there's i've been thinking about this as you say you've just been at edinburgh fringe that there's scotland is synonymous with great storytelling it just is that you've got as I said Edinburgh Friends you've got Billy Connolly the list of actors you've got Sean Connery Gerard Butler Ewan McGregor Robert Carlyle Robert Carlyle in Trainspot I mean that's fabulous I've never seen anything like it that's not on front I know it was so fantastic and that film made so many that one film made so many young Scottish actors oh god yeah but what just to kind of unpack that like how did how did those films for you what was the impact they had on scotland as a as a storytelling nation if that's how you'd want to braveheart i think um it was um i remember i was sitting in near his pub with um randall wallace the screen the guy that wrote braveheart he'd been on holiday a few years before he'd seen the wallace monument and sterling who's that guy what because i mean it's the same name he looked up read the story and all that sort of stuff, which is sort of unclear.

52:45Nobody really knows much about William Wallace, except for the couple of battles and things. And he wrote this story. And I remember sitting with him near his pub over a pint of Guinness and I said, I think this is going to have a huge effect on Scotland. And before that, the Scottish Nationalist Party were peripheral. They weren't mainstream at all. And he disagreed with me. But it turned out I was right. I think Braveheart hits a chord within Scottish people that personally, I'm not a nationalist. Well, I think I'm a British nationalist. I'm very proud of how Scotland and England have been together this long time.

53:43And Scotland has had a huge impact on England, on British society, on the international, the Western world. We've had a completely out of proportion to our population. We've had a huge effect on the Western world. But that's by the by. But I think Braveheart was a, I think it was an international success, Dan, because the core tenant of the movie was about the little guys that said, no, we want freedom. we're not going to have this anymore. We're going to stand up and we're going to fight and we're going to defeat this overwhelming, malevolent authority because we believe that every man is free.

54:40Declaration of Our Broth, which was written hundreds of years before, the Declaration of Independence is very similar in its content. Um, so, um, Braveheart's main core was about freedom, was about individual freedom, uh, which is the most important thing that any society can have. we must have individual freedom and self autonomy and, and not be, be ruled by a faceless government that is, that does not have your wellbeing at its heart. It has the opposite at heart. And that's why I think it's such a good film to watch for challenger brands. Cause as, as you so said, rightly said there, James, it's the little guy fighting the big malevolent beast, right?

55:37And there's something in that. And then I suppose the flip side is, what do you think Trainsporting did for Scotland and storytelling? Because the amount of actors that came out of that thing was just… Yeah. Well, you know, Danny Boyle is a complete one-off.

55:55He is an extraordinary talent for filmmaking. And as you mentioned there when he was saying doing the unusual and the different, I mean, throughout his career he's done that. You know, I worked with him before, train-sporting on a play of the month called The Night Watch about mercenaries in Amsterdam. And it was a joy to work with him then. And, you know, and then, so when he phoned me and said, do you want to play Ewan's dad in Trainspot? I just dived at it, you know, because I've never, I've never worked for the director as talented as that. What's different about? Before or since. What's different about Danny versus other directors?

56:43I wish I knew. I wish I knew. It's, he, he inspires the whole crew. Every member of that crew really feels that they are valued and their input has, again, value. They all want to contribute. They all want, I don't know how he does it, but he makes people or he lets people know that they are part of a bigger project and that their contribution really matters. And that's down to the guy that brings the sandwiches in the afternoon. The guy that cleans out the Winnebago's, they all feel that they're part of a Danny Boyle film. It's extraordinary how he can do it because it's not phony. It's far from being a device.

57:45He just does that love of what he's doing and the talent to know what he's doing and people just feed off that and they believe in him. because he believes in them. Yeah. Again, it's a, it's a great leadership lesson in terms of his creative process slash storytelling. kind of not wheelhouse but capabilities is is is that's such a different film and then as he said what does he say he says uh what does he say people always like the easy route you have to push very hard push very hard to get something unusual if we were to you know rewind in time machine to being on set in 1994 1995 is there examples of how what he was saying to push hard to get something unusual because one of my big tenants with this podcast is doing things differently if you try and be like everyone else you end up like everyone else or isn't it's much easier to just do something so fucking different if you're in a category of one you win it's much easier yeah yeah absolutely much easier to win i mean that that reason that film is such a cold cold following is is amazing storytelling for sure but also just because it was so fucking different Yeah, absolutely.

59:11Yeah, if you go into that, it would be brilliant. Yeah. Well, I guess if you were sort of comparing it with food or the industry, if you have a big box of shiny apples, and some apples are a bit dry looking and not very nice, but there's some really big shiny, shiny apples. And they're fantastic. They look amazing. But they're still apples. But if there's a single kiwi fruit sitting on the counter, you go, what the fuck's that? Wow, look at that. That's completely different. Yeah, I know those are, and there's some nice apples there and there's other ones. that's a nice shiny apple but look at that you know there is as you say that being different is is the thing and i think people within the industry looked at danny and because of that enthusiasm they had the belief in what he's doing and the product that he's going to make that um they they they saw that they saw that this is this is different this is a film that's that's not going to cost a hundred million to make at the end of the day 50 million profit you know that's not what it is it's a film that's going to cost uh five million and it's going to make 500 million because it's different with those shiny fruit you could sort of work out maybe it'll make that if it does okay but that different one that's gonna that's gonna be the one that's gonna go yeah i'm just thinking reflecting on that it's it's such a such a true true lesson i think everyone wants everyone wants to be the shinier apple that's actually just easiest being the kiwi yeah yeah but well it's it is yeah because you're sitting in a box with a lot of shiny yeah yeah you know the so so what's he taught you about storytelling because I think storytelling is, I'm going to come on to the storyman, is it's a tenant for life, really.

1:01:33Great life. Great stories. What's he taught you about storytelling specifically?

1:01:40To be... It's funny because when Danny directs you, you don't realise you're being directed. You're sitting with a cup of tea and a fag or whatever and you're talking about different things and he's talking away and that accent is from Coventry or whatever, isn't he? Yeah, he's mad man CUNY. You've got a problem with man CUNY. I've always talked with him about different things you can win. You go, oh, okay. Oh, yeah, he's very subtle in his direction. He's not in any way, you know, do it this way. He gently nudges you into the position where you are going to bring out the best in yourself. That's what he wants.