How Local are Reinventing Better For You Beer in the UK and Taking On Budlight

0:00Hello there and welcome to Hungry. Hungry is the podcast for the next wave of challenger food and drink brands looking to pull gasoline all over their growth. Each week we'll interview successful founders, thought leaders, unpack their lessons and provide you with a toolkit to scale super fast. I am Dan Pope, I am your host and without further ado, let's get started. Hello there people, this is the Hummery Podcast. I'm absolutely thrilled to welcome Louis Collins and James Tyler, co-founders of Locale Beer. so chaps thank you so much I'm excited to talk all about your big array of listings how many listings have you got about three is that the start can we do that again

0:53Colin's not Colin local absolute burn Jesus Christ your shitty little podcast I'm hungry cameras aren't even working

1:12I just had to get it in there but you've got like you've got a lot of customers one two we're going are we oh yeah let's go but no look chaps I'm start that again you prick

1:34I think we just let's just roll with it No, mate, I'll tell you that. How big customers you got? Three.

1:45I can take that bit out. I can take that bit out. Honestly, I think you have to roll again, mate. All right, we'll do another one. I think that's funny, leaving that in. But anyway, three, two, one, go. Hello there, people and listeners of The Hungry Podcast. I'm absolutely thrilled to welcome Louis Collins and James Hyde to the podcast, who are co-founders of Local Beer, who make low-calorie, light and cloudy pale ale, low ABV, low calories, have won a host of listings at loads of pubs, restaurants, bars. I think they're going to be doing amazing things to the category. And I love their beer.

2:39We've done quite a few events. We just did one up in Manchester. We'll be doing more in London. So, chaps, thank you so much for having me on. You're very welcome, mate. It's a pleasure. I think we should keep that other intro, but anyway. So, what I want to start with is you, Jimmy boy. is um so you did stand-up comedy well i mean i did it once when i was at uni and probably never again to be honest i did it a couple did it yeah i think three times in the end yeah yeah yeah i still want to talk about that okay we can talk about it i think it sets the scene nicely for some of the things you want to do um i think it it it like most people don't have the bollocks to stand up and do stand up comedy um talk me through your first set paint the picture set the scene say we've got i don't know 10 minutes before you're going on the stage they're about to call up jim james tyler wow amazing question honestly i did that when i was 18 19 maybe so almost 20 years ago now uh and it was part of uh i did a i don't know what i'm laughing i don't know either i did a course yeah man i did a course uh up at north franbury uni uh up in newcastle which was script writing and kind of theater drama studies um and part of my coursework was i had to put everyone had to do a performance um of some sort and i just was like okay this is brilliant i've always wanted to sort of write comedy and do some sort of comedy performance so i'm going to do stand-up i went and spoke to the local comedy store up there and i was like look i'm sort of in my last year of uni um we need to do a piece um it's got to be a certain length so i sort of i wrote it and um yeah i went to perform it uh and what i didn't know i just had no idea i was so green it was that people do sort of five minutes of stand-up for five years yeah and like hone five minutes uh and i went up and did 20 minute stand-up for my first time which is like ludicrous you talk to any comedian they'll be like that's the stupid thing i've ever heard but uh yeah i bombed i just bombed throughout i think i think i think maybe there was one gag that did all right about sort of because it was the most truthful i think it was about school and maths or something i can't really remember the joke you gag about school and maths something about set squares it wasn't good yeah yeah yeah for 20 minutes that was one part i'm like i can remember you know you get up there and you do like you get like two minutes in and you think it's been an hour and you realize oh god it's total silence um sounds awful it was awful yeah i'd never do it again honestly it's all put me off but what is it so what's the feeling in here as you're like talking about where so you're you're in the club what does the club look like what does it feel like um is it busy yeah yeah it's busy maybe about i don't know 60 70 people in there i think it was quite a lot of people quite a lot of people and i was in between professionals so there was like well how to not get into comedy right james thailand yeah totally i mean i i did go into comedy after that but in sort of like behind the scenes um development producing and stuff and uh uh i was sort of scouting young comedians for a few years um which was great um met some amazing and people are now doing like, now they're huge.

6:10Such as? Well, I think I saw Joe Lycett's first ever stand up and then we got him to do, so I think we were in a sketch together, the first thing. People like Joel Dormit, who's now a huge sort of presenter. Lou Sanders. Yeah, that kind of era of comedians I was working with a lot. But I love comedy. It was my sort of first love. I think working it put me off a bit. Take me back to that night then, sorry i interrupted but like in terms of setting the scene um 60 people yeah 60 i think a few of my course mates came down to support and i want to honestly i wish they hadn't because that that just added the pressure on um and yeah it was it was i think what the sort of five minutes before we went on just pure panic just like you know your heart just starts beating you thinking oh my god okay i'm gonna need to get out of this pretty sharpish i wonder if i can just tell her i don't want to do it anymore and tell my I'm a course leader because my course well my the guy who was running the course was down there as well mark it like sat there with his marker it was it was so stupid I was I think it was just a mixture of arrogance and like you confidence of youth or something but I just thought oh this will be easy uh and I think I actually got ushered off after 15 minutes I didn't get to finish my set because I think the woman sort of running the night was like you're bombing too hard maker you've got to come off uh you're ruining my night basically what does it feel like when you bomb uh oh like the end of the world and not only that i remember that there was a comedian that came like professional comedian that came on after me who just ripped me his first sort of five minutes of his first first set he was just taking the piss out of me it was horrible that's grim yeah yeah but if i'd have known how to actually get into comedy probably would have stuck at it a bit more and done kind of smaller sets and just tried to hone in like basically just three gags and just sort of build it around that but and then what was the process of like um because what these are i wanted to start with that it's because i interviewed a guy called rory sutherland and we were talking about how too much purpose i mean purpose is the buzz word too much purpose can make brands boring and i think um not saying every brand should try and be funny but like there's little these little touch points of like moments of surprise and magic in in humor mainly are like gorgeous little bits of brand building that not everyone can do um not saying you guys are doing that but like just we'll talk about like the strategy with the comedy and stuff later on if we can yeah yeah yeah i think that's a really good idea um but let's go back um a few steps and you guys had another business we did yeah um so i met james um at an advertising agency about 15 years ago it's pretty much my first job straight out of uni um and yeah it got on really well um then we actually went on to run a business together called canvas so we basically worked with artists to make wearable art so we do things like uh silk scarves pocket squares socks all limited run designed by artists that we love um which is great fun yeah i think it was just we just both knew we wanted to do something entrepreneurial and it didn't really matter what at that point so we were just we were sort of playing around with ideas i think i think you first came to me with an idea about it was called eye tie do you remember that yeah i do yeah he was i've got this idea it's called eye tie and it basically it's a website where you can match your eye colour you we take the exact eye colour of your eye and match it to a tie fucking hell forgot about eye tie yeah and i just said that sounds genius no it's it's terrible it's terrible i was like definitely we're not doing that i think yeah i think that's probably a good gag you could have done at a stand-up gig yeah i think you're right we just always wanted to do something what was the why behind it?

10:16I think it's interesting there's actually a serious point here right no matter what you need a lot of lead to find gold you need a lot of bad ideas to stumble upon good ideas that's a creative truism and I think what people think is creativity is this spark of fucking genius it's not it's thousands of paintballs but thousands of lead thrown at the wall that doesn't work and then you just see this full slither at the end which is potentially local. But yeah, so what was the why behind the eye tie? You're calling that a slither at the end, are you?

10:52The, um, really like a gem. Yeah, that's more, yeah, gem, gem, that's the one. Yeah, the idea between... The five stock is so fun. Yeah,

11:03national, I only need to have national brands on, but I'm joking. They're paying me ten grand for beer and they brought me a girls coffee as well. And they're taking me for dinner. You're paying for dinner. Yeah, I'm at Uber home. Hi there, guys. Super, super quick one. I write a weekly newsletter called Hungry Friday Feast. It goes live at 8am every Friday. I'm pouring my soul into this bad boy. It's probably my favourite creative ender I've ever done. I basically pick apart all the biggest lessons, all the biggest learnings from all the wonderful guests and throw it into a feast or a newsletter.

11:42we've got over a thousand two hundred subscribers come and join the party i'm going to put a link in the show notes it's right at the top and subscribe and if you are already a subscriber please just forward it on to a friend do the amount of favor it would mean the world to me anyway back to the old episode boys and girls so yeah what were you saying about eye tie yeah eye tie though it's just a silly idea apparently matching your tie to your eye color is um a good fashion tip brings out your eyes oh really yeah and now you're interested but that i mean that that was like the kernel of the thought of what what could we do maybe there's something in fashion or maybe something in material um and that's how it started so we um that just developed and i was like well hang on like i'm working with a lot of illustrators in my role i've met a lot of illustrators i sort of know who the ones i'd want to work with are so let's maybe try and work that in and maybe it's more of a collaboration so that that became canvas which was can we use fashion as a kind of blank canvas where we can invite artists to put their work on it under a theme so we yeah we it's great fun any examples of like how that manifested yeah we our first collection was called the art of seduction and it was a series of looking right i'm looking at you with the spark uh and we um yeah we worked with i think it was six artists the initial the first run did like uh 20 or 30 pocket squares and briefed them all that was the brief like the art of seduction and they all came back with amazing different designs that framed up there is actually a silk scarf from it yeah so it's a japanese artist yeah for listeners it's like a pink um scene with a banana on it it's a podcast man they're not gonna be able to see that it looks really um really good mate um yeah no it's a beer mate no i'm joking that doesn't look really good it was that it's great fun and we actually ended up um opening up a shop physical shop in Soho just off Carnaby Street um which was so much fun um but eventually COVID came along shut the shop and we sort of decided at that point to you know take what we had and move it into something else which eventually turned out to be local.

14:12So how were you what was the business model how did you make money so you paid the artists like if we lift up the bonnet and look at how the machine works, if you want to call it that. How does that work? Well, probably quite naive in that there probably wasn't a business model there. It was more just like a paddling pool of a business, like let's go through all the motions of a business. And then it became – it wasn't just our collection. We reached out to other brands that were doing similar stuff and became almost like a – what do you call it? A marketplace for fashion. So we had different brands with different artists.

14:48um yeah but yeah i don't think ever it was a um sort of sustainable business like the margins were never there what did you learn about creativity doing that business and just being so surrounded by artists like what did that oh it was just so much fun i mean just the process the production the getting stuff made actually having something tangible that was ours inviting people to the shop we had like a couple of launch parties with our friends just having a location on carnaby street basically um which is such a meeting point for people so we're constantly coming in and out um and yeah working with these other brands we were jewelry brands and a sort of disposable camera brand and jacket brand um just and and you sort of and and actually next door uh was the wax you know wax the fashion brand their first shop wax yeah they sort of jackets and we became very friendly with them so it was nice just to see their business grow as well and i think that gave us a sort of bug to go on to do more stuff yeah what was the most interesting like piece you saw um interesting thing you saw uh during that time what you mean

16:09i mean like the most interesting piece of art like most interesting thing that's created through the amalgamation of art and fashion. Yeah, I think that one Framed is my favourite. It's called Beauty Call. It's by this absolutely bonkers Japanese artist called Yoko Honda. That's sort of her interpretation of the art of seduction. Right. Yeah, we sort of did it, I guess you would call it a gold, silver, bronze tier of quite famous artists and then up and coming. She's quite famous. The things she was in she's like she's got a lot of instagram followers yeah I'm not sure what she's thousand haven't followed her for a while I'm not sure what she's doing it's just mad how I was speaking to a guy I think I was telling you about this on the train up to Manchester this guy called Oliver Lloyd who did history of art then set up great bits of chefs and then went into now does a load of work with brands and actually created like a innovation creativity hub that was part of Unilever so I did it for like big big brands like Dove Lynx and we were talking about how art moves into brands and like obviously not all art like not everyone buys brands because it's got meaning like you're not buying GIF rubber gloves for what?

17:31for like for a booty call

17:37but for for like uh there's no meaning in that but like with brands like nike you buy it for there's meaning in it camden town brewery in terms of putting this through beer like there's there's there's meaning obviously the product tastes really fucking good but like there's other beers just as good but there's there's a there's a depth and a meaning in that and i think what's fascinating speaking to you guys is going back on your journey like setting the scene before local is this theme of art comedy creativity and then and then brand building what are some of the um lessons from creativity and art that you're applying to local and maybe we could talk about I think the first thing to go into is how you actually won won the co-op listing with the pub around the corner yeah I mean it's all bigger question there is I think we've I think what we both came from advertising I'm a creative and Louise Sue I'm a creative yeah I'm a creative I'm an art director, a copywriter.

18:43That's what you call a creative. It does sound wanky, doesn't it? Now I'm a creative. I think a lot of people from advertising do go into brand building because you just see so many brands coming through. It's very rare you work on something for more than three months. Maybe you're working on five different projects at a time. So throughout a year, you're working on so many different brands from so many different sectors, meeting the people that have started it and realising, oh, actually, maybe I could do that. Who did you meet in that period? Do you mean of you guys who are now big brands? Well, we learned, oh, God.

19:25To be fair, not many that were sort of small and became big would usually just, we were just working on brands, I guess, that were kind of mid to big anyway. so okay so so what are the lessons you've taken from as i said we kind of touched upon you were speaking to those other brands at the agencies what were the lessons you've you've taken specifically from being around artists that you're kind of bringing into local um well i think you know we're um brand first so we we know you know like you say the the product itself is super important but if you can't communicate what it is very simply and clearly to consumer very quickly then this you've lost the battle so i think it's it's that it's how do we edit our product to be the cleanest communication to our customers um so we tried to do that from the name to the kind of log line to the aesthetic to the logo um very considered like you know we know how important it is so at this stage it's like i mean i don't want to put a number on it but 80 brand 20 product probably and do you because that's interesting so i always say don't spend more time on the product than the brand because i think it's much easier to begin to begin with because it's much easier to get the brand right yeah along the line well i think that's that's good advice if you're flexible i think what happens to a lot of people are starting out is they get so set on a name for some reason or a look and feel that they're just not prepared to flex on um which then it doesn't matter what you do with your product if you like yeah that is a great way to do it if if you're like you know what this is just the kind of brand for now i don't mind if we change the name the look and feel who we're targeting all that stuff is kind of flexible but with you guys it wasn't flexible oh well it was at the start i mean we did so much strategy before we even sort of went to we we kind of had visualized what it was going to be and how it was going to sit on shelf and where it was going to be positioned before we even went to a brewer i think you know we went through two or three designers to get to one that we really liked i mean to get to brand where we are now probably took us over a year um and a lot of back and forth but i think you need both don't you like yeah i'm not i'm not diminishing the the product at all it's more just um i just think if we weren't clear about how we could sell it there was any point doing it yeah yeah it's like the chicken and the egg isn't it it's like the issue i suppose is i see so many brands focus on the the bells and whistles in the packaging that the product's no good and you don't get their repeat purchase it looks great on shelf very like kind of the art of seduction right so try me i think perry calls it foreplay right on shelf great packaging is like foreplay so come and try me but if it doesn't taste good it's like going back home having an awful you know time in the sack you're not going back again yeah um that means happen a lot isn't it yeah yeah all right all touching over here and so that's why I think focusing spending loads of time getting that product so banging yeah absolutely but then the other what's interesting is why I love doing these because you learn you can pull it and tease it so much the other side of this is being laser focused with the brand the message like how it's going to where it's going to sit on the shelf the strategy it's two sides of the same coin you need them both singing and dancing together it's just which one comes first yeah i mean it i'm just saying that because that's where that's our background i mean we're not brewers we're not sort of like we didn't fall in love with the process of creating the product we fell in love the kind of positioning and the brand and yeah and we just you know we love beer that was our kind of in we loved that sort of happened first and then we sort of moved into product because you were like running around Hampstead Heath weren't you yeah like what's the genesis of the business like what are the other names before local or locale we actually got local pretty early on um yeah it started back in back in one of the lockdowns myself James and there's a third partner as well who um like put money early on and sort of not not as involved in the day-to-day but we were you know we were drinking too much eating too much just generally being um pretty unhealthy so we we decided we all lived near Hampstead Heath that we would meet up at Hampstead Heath go for a run um and we'd usually end up by having a couple of beers after the run um which was like about as much fun as you could have back in the lockdown um Um, but we quickly realized that even having a couple of beers, you're actually pulling on more calories than you've burned during the run itself.

24:35And that, you know, when you have the context of having just done a 5k run, it just doesn't like make sense. Um, so, you know, we tried drinking hard seltzers, slim line gin and tonics, but sometimes you just need, you need a beer. Um, and there wasn't a beer out there for that occasion. and um i remember james he literally asked the question where is the diet coke of beer and that was that was the light bulb moment where we were like right i think there's a big opportunity here yeah i love that i actually wrote about like my newsletter this week the diet coke of beer um and how important an analogy is in um in getting niche categories to speak mainstream language because ultimately you know that's seasoned drinks by Ben Branson's new thing have you seen that on LinkedIn and Instagram it's basically bitters that you'd put in a cocktail I'd seen the thing on the shelf there's a name big brand that's been around so you basically put it into your drink and it makes it taste better super niche category how often are people buying that really and truly what Ben's done is he's stolen the semiotics do you know semiotics so like a hot tap red and blue semiotics like traffic light semiotics I've done some fucking shit I was reading about anyway but what is super interesting is they'd stolen the cues or stolen the semiotics from salt and pepper people don't know what bitters is black for pepper goes in dark drinks white for salt goes in light drinks bang it makes sense Diet Coke of beer bang makes sense

26:20what's his name Daniel Weiner hex clad absolutely smashed it Gordon Ramsay he's invested reinventing frying pans not just frying pans cookware the Rolls Royce of frying pans yeah great you just get it straight away and I think for Chandra Brands especially in niche categories where it's like so hard to like with this prebiotic or we're low fat, we're low chocolate with whatever, like rats piss in it. I mean, it can be anything. It's so niche. Yeah, yeah. If you can use analogy or semiotics, semiotics is harder. You can speak. Suddenly buyers get it. Because I think you said to the co-op straight away with a Diet Coke of beer, bosh, we understand it.

27:04So, and I think there's a lot. You can really just keep playing with that, keep playing with that. I think that's something that we've taken from our advertising days as well it's just like you know as an art director creative sorry hashtag creative hashtag creative hashtag he's wearing VG's hashtag he's got a necklace yeah Saze actually vegan Saze cactus not leather yeah no you get you have yeah yeah yeah are they VG's no they're Saze oh there's actually another brand yeah yeah yeah are they like the challenger brand for of ages I don't really know I just saw a guy wearing them and I thought they were really nice so I got it myself to be fair they're falling apart a bit I'm just brand loyal to Air Force Ones yeah they look great yeah yeah cheers mate cheers mate yeah sorry carry on yeah no it's just you know creative creative ideas you know like you were saying at the start it's you just throw as much as you can at the wall I mean when I'm when I'm briefed I'm probably thinking like just from my experience is just get the shit ideas out of the way just get think of the stupidest idea think of the worst idea think of the one that's you're going to be most embarrassed about saying write that down and then you just get all that out there so you're not worried after that and then it's just then it's just um hopefully good stuff but you just go and then lead to find gold totally it's it's uh yeah you've got to put a lot of stuff up and then um edit really and i think like you're saying with the um um the brand it's it's the best stuff i think is the simplest stuff it's how how can you tell um your nephew or your grandma you know it needs to be that simple you can say it over a table very clearly where they can take that away and then tell someone else so getting it down to that very sort of bite-sized selling point delighted to announce the extension of our partnership with the wonderful billion pull from mckenzie jones but even more exciting they have just launched a brand new brand as part of mckenzie jones called mkj ignite mkj ignite is a recruitment firm which specializes full shebang focus entirely on challenge brand space they work with some incredible brands lucky saint Good Race, Purdy and Fig Hunt and Gather and Real Superfoods they can support with your hiring needs across all levels top to bottom, junior entry level jobs all the way up to MD and CEO level so if you're looking for a field sales stomper, a sales wizard, an ops guru, a supply chain sensei you name it, MKJ Ignite can help you out and look if you're looking to wet your whistle, ignite your curiosity then check out the poddy we recorded with them back in July I, laden with wisdom, all about like do's and don'ts of hiring and like how to create the perfect job description.

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30:37Why on planet Earth should you be getting your mitts on these GS1 powered QR codes? Well look, very very simple mate. GS1 will help you drive revenue, upsell and cross-sell your amazing products, boost your bottom line, boost your bottom line, yes please, where do I sign? Enhance customer engagement. look delight your customers with dynamic content that captivates and keeps them coming back for more more more please sir come out some more yes you can comply with regulations look you want to be building your brand you don't want to be knee-deep wading through a deep river of legislation aggrovation these barcodes allow you to stay ahead of the curve look don't allow this beautiful boat of boundless opportunity to sail away into the malting sunset be on that boat join GS1's UK's free pilot program today yes it's completely free there will be a link in the show notes thank you so much again back to the oliver lloyd because he's i mean sometimes you have a conversation it's like wow he was taught by someone really senior at unilever uh the knock knock trick so just say you're a brand like knock knock like not not who's there i don't know this is some some sort of comedy thing here um but it's not that it's what when you knock on the door what is your brand and you've got like literally as imagine someone's that that's what it's got to be like on shelf yeah so with you guys diet coke of beer or local i know you keep saying local but also locale yes that that's that was definitely considered as well because um we're working with only local breweries to make our we don't have a one site where we um make our make our beer we we want to work with local breweries around the uk to kind of continue like you know i think 80 breweries closed down last year i didn't know that yeah i think 400 is that not a problem with consistency of liquid yeah that's going to be a challenge for us for sure but um it's a challenge we want to take on uh but you know keep down our travel costs carbon footprint logistics so if we can have sort of centralized hubs in local areas around the uk yeah we'll get on to that because that sounds super interesting but in terms of the this creativity piece let's stay on this because i think it's for people listening you don't you don't need a huge budget to disrupt i think you've you've seen seen it in the big agency side whereas lots of balladeers allow you and actually permission to have balladeers allows you that gold to materialize um and then obviously you're doing it with local but what are some of the examples from your big agency backgrounds some of the big brands where the consumer like we will see like a an end product or an end activation what was we'll see the gold what was the lead leading up to that i'll give two examples for instance like camden this is camden i'll give you one camden activation we did a couple years ago so i was at ab and bev for a couple years and they're in-house agency was that when you they were bought by sorry they bought yeah so i think they camden had come into ab and bev maybe three years before i joined uh maybe a couple years before i think jasper had already left by that point uh or we just we'd sort of crossed over by a couple of months or something um but yeah uh so for for instance one idea was um they they're very much into um camden very much into sport and um women's sport and the um the euros were on at the time you had to just check that mix i had something going that's long yeah that's long yeah yeah i'm listening mate yeah um so camden were into um you know one of their kind of passion points is um women's sport and they're big advocates for women's football and have supported them in many different ways and the euros were on what two years ago now and um this is this is not a good example by the way i'm just giving you an example because it was this was as you were saying some ideas just come to you this is one of those ones so um Beth Mead was killing it at the Euros um I think I think it was a the game before the qualifiers or she was basically she was leading I think she got five or six or seven goals or something she was top scorer at that time but there were still three more games to go and I was just sitting on a plane actually coming back from holiday and I the headline just said like um you know mead mead does it again or mead's on top and i was just thinking like oh mead's a beer isn't it i wonder if we could do something with camden town for that so the next day i was like um spoke to marketing director i was like i've got an idea can i quickly pitch it to you um i was like let's do like a golden mead let's do a honey mead for camden town and we should get it should be for beth mead so she was going out for golden what's it called golden boot um and just immediately it clicked they were like yes we're doing that so that went into production immediately i think we launched it on the day of the final the um the the beer we did a big launch day down at camden town brewery with the new beer um and i think from sort of idea to launch was it was only like three weeks um and yeah it did really well and obviously she went on to become like um bbc personality of the year so that was that was a great that was just a really nice that that not organic organic idea which just made sense yeah um is sorry no no go on i was gonna say one thing i've and this all ties in i'm reading rick rubens book i've talked about this loads for um it's actually in there about the creative act so for listeners rick rubens music producer did adele red hot chili peppers um beastie boys uh worked with johnny cash so many people by creative genius and his books the creative way he basically said talks about how creativity is literally all around you but you've you've got your blinkers on your blinkers off and reminds me what you said there being on the plane and finding mead paul mccartney was on and this links back weirdly to season ben branson drink paul mccartney was on a plane and they were up they asked him do you want salt and pepper and it just triggered off right and that's how it became the sergeant pepper and the lonely hearts brigade whatever it is yeah i'm possessed of the beagle so i've like read a lot of this but it what it shows is like the creativity is literally right in front of you it's just about like taking the blinkers off that was that was a real one-off i'm not i was going to give you another example just to sort of prove the other side which is um so we also had a brief so this was that was that wasn't a brief that was just a kind of always on idea which just happened to be like the perfect timing and then she did went on she did go on to get the golden boot and it was all a success but there was enough so i was also working for stella ratois they brought out stella ratois unfiltered and um what the big a the big agency that had done the big sort of 360 campaign i think it was mother actually um they'd done this whole au naturel so in the advert everyone's naked you've probably seen the ad it's like a french riviera style setting and the the guy the guy the guy comes down with a with a stellar unfiltered and everyone in the town is naked and it's like life au naturel i've seen that yeah yeah so they'd set the kind of standard for the big 360 campaign and then what do you mean by 360 campaign so the above the line so tv ad all the posters what is below the line?

38:08below the line is like anything sort of content wise or like social media yeah what about on the line? digital adverts on the line on the line? should we create on the line? no I'm trying to get it I thought you were going to try and make something up yeah you're on the line yeah yeah but it's true as long as I ask these questions because yeah yeah I don't know that's language that we sorry yeah you forget that yeah yeah who came up with this line? I don't know. I don't know where that's from. ATL, mate. ATL. Yeah, it is ATL. People say ATL. Yeah, ATL. T-F-L-O-T-L. Say it, say it. So yeah, the creative department was giving the brief, like, how can we activate that idea, right?

38:52So how do we take Au Naturel as a concept and do a big activation in some way? And with that, you know, I went away and so there's other members of the team and, you know, you go back and you pitch or, you know, you come up with 50 ideas. you pitch 20 and maybe three go forward and then you work on those um so that was that was an example where um yeah i pitched a load of different ideas like stuff to do with um you know london fashion week and um doing another palace collaboration and how can we you know it's all different kind of um ideas around nudity which was actually a really fun brief but the one that really stuck with people is i just had this image really simple image of um duke of wellington pub sign you know that kind of like hoity pompous kind of um visual of a of a duke archduke in like a red jacket right and then next to it i'd removed his clothes and so the idea was like can we strip uk pub signs and that's where we sell the beer and that that was like loved by the team but i had to work on that for about a year to get it to the place where it was viable for them so that was a real slog but we we got it done in the end and it was great but that's just another example of like throwing a load of ideas and then what have you got a picture of that yeah yeah i'd love to see that yeah no it went live um earlier on this year so we actually um we got artists from as another artist ideas we got artists great artists like ruben dango and bernadette timco to kind of reimagine pub signs in the nude and then we did a big launch event with like a gallery and um sold it off and i think we did um oh what's the name jody kidd she has her own pub so we got her involved and we um made a nude version of her pub called the half moon where she was doing a half moon um so that was that was a really fun campaign they actually just on so it's it's the sign on the pub with the flaps yeah so we actually did we made some real life pub signs yeah and we also did sort of originals that we sold off for auction and then we did posters for the more kind of um just so more people could get involved and buy the prints um but i just tell that story because there was one example which was really quick it just came to me and it was just like perfectly formed and it didn't need much more thought it was just let's design the can and let's think about a launch strategy and then that one it was like a whole yeah that's probably more typical isn't it when you get a brief you go through like as you say a lot of lead to get to an idea that is actually um doable yeah and even then it's like yeah that's a good idea but what what is the framework around that what's the mechanics how do we you know what's the pr angle on that who can we get involved as an ambassador how do we get a charity involved to make it more about giving back and so just building like that visual everyone got and it's how do you build on that to um to really sell in the idea across all the channels yeah i think hard there's a difference between hard creativity and soft creativity i mean i wanted to actually ask this to perry next week because i think you need hard creativity to get soft creativity so it's a virtuous cycle right so prime example getting back to the beatles have you seen the get back documentary i watched a bit of it so yeah so in that they they may be a song that so you know the song get back get back boom boom whatever yeah i wonder that song they're bludgeoning their way through it's like like i'm not gonna do the sounds because just bore everyone senses but that's hard creativity that is hours in the studio um grafting away so hard iterating failing iterating failing but then you get a masterpiece you get get back conversely soft creativity and i've just put it i don't know this actually thing i'm just beginning beginning to think about i want to ask perry about it next week soft creativity paul mccartney writes yesterday in 50 in five minutes yeah do you know what i mean but it goes but they're both both work but i i genuinely believe you need the hard creativity you need to be putting the work in for those soft moments to boil up to bubble up yeah um which is fascinating but louie do you want to talk about how the hot as as that kind of paradigm i don't know why i said the word paradigm very um weird um but this framework made for hard creativity and soft creativity um i don't know why that was funny that's not funny hard creativity and soft creativity for how you won co-op and yeah so um you know it was a it was a long journey for co-op and to manchester um i mean it started with us reaching out to buyers um which you do you know cold calling buyers is part of the job um and you know you've got to be creative and you've got to do things a little bit differently to stand out so i think for co-op what we did is we initially made them a playlist on Spotify, but each song told a story.

44:06So, you know, first song would be Hello Adele. Second song would be By His Name. Third song would be Do You Like Beer, etc. So, like, you look down, it tells you a little bit of a story. Third song, Do You Like Beer, etc. Was that a song by Louis Collins? Yeah, just uploaded it. Do You Like Beer, etc. but like you know that that got their attention that's better than just a standard email um they like that um and you know then they're like all right cool send us in some samples so i think what we did then is we we sent them a really nice package we put a um an inflatable balloon in there so when they opened it up the balloon floated out and it had a ribbon with a cardboard cut out of claudia who's our mascot who had sort of like a little message about our beer so again it's just sort of coming up with interesting creative ways of sort of demonstrating the brand and the product um that just makes buyers smile and you know is slightly different bohemi our beloved sponsor are helping build the fastest growing challenge of food drink brands look if you're a small brand just starting out and need your first indie stockist your first hundred stockist to wholesale boemi are the platform to categorically speed that up but if you're a big brand wanting to get bigger boemi are also insane they make field sales marble smooth silky slick they're just epic ollie's ollie's been on this podcast twice actually they saw a 29 uplift in sales when using boemi to check major malt listings availability insane 29 uplift by downloading an app insane lucky saying my boy aaron duff is coming on this podcast in a couple of weeks weeks he uses it to manage the team of 30 people and they've lucky saying have unlocked 500 draft listings by using bowie me look you've got to get involved with this stuff it's absolutely insane and it will categorically change your life it's just the sickest platform i use it all the time at ireland hi guys super super quick one so so excited look the years i've been badgering on about hungary the podcast you're probably ball to death thanks for putting up with me but hungary is also an agency and we look after one amazing brand called islands chocolate we've had a great time over the year we've won listings at load of wholesalers we've got milk and more we've got our first grocery listing coming very soon which is very very sick but what i'm thrilled to announce is hungary's merging with hc consulting um my boy harry clark and his wonderful team he's an absolute g they do brand strategy new business business and account management but why i really love working with harry and why we've got on so well over the last couple of months is harry was actually the founder of the boozy isolate brand pops he's been in the trenches he's grafted his face off he's had the sleepless nights he's had the turmoil he's had the triumph he knows what it is to be a founder he is a founder and he's got a proven track record in grocery and out of home holy moly dips the gut stuff savile drinks remio gelato So if you're a brand and you're stuck, you're looking for new business help, you're looking to scale, drop us a message.

47:17We'd love to chat. Thank you so much. Back to the old episode. What are some of the, if you can remember some of the crap ideas? I mean, you can usually filter them out yourselves quite quickly, right? You just know either that's going to be way too expensive or too much effort and time. And it's going to do the exact same thing that a Spotify playlist will do. so it's like you know low cost low effort high impact is a pretty good way in yeah i think so you know ladies just sending standards emails to buyers um you know without anything interesting in there i'm trying to remember a bad idea i think that's a good question like no what i mean it was a bad bad idea to get old people like i remember once well you can you can cringe i'm actually cringing so much thinking about this um at manny life i was trying to get us into whole foods and i tried everything under the sun i tried um i'd gone in with a box of six cross-town donuts and was like hi mate i'm camping in the food hall i'll be down please see me for like two minutes um i brought a tent and stove with me like wink face sort of thing like it was really cringe but we've got their attention Get their attention

48:30And But once I just thought This is like Really fucking a bit weird Is I thought Right I'm going to get The buyer A Joe Malone Like Hamper No no It was like a full blown Like 200 quid Hamper I was like Oh my And then I basically got home And I spent 200 quid at Joe Malone And I was like Oh my god That is like the neediest thing Weirdest Sort of neediest thing To send And I've given it to my mum it's a fine line isn't it it's such a fine line but I always think go it's yes I know we talked about above the line not below the line on the line but it is a fine line it's like and you know as we were speaking to with one of the buyers the other week it's like brands can piss buyers off I won't say the brand name no I think we've been guilty of that ourselves how have you pissed buyers off well I think just too persistent to like it gets check that camera like you need to there's yeah the fine line is you need to respect that they have a job to do and they're probably getting hundreds of people like us doing this so to you know to do it you know what a few times we sort of turned up unannounced at the offices with samples they don't like that they don't like that which retailers or can you not say hashtag retailer yeah retail or excellent why i won't have vibing it but yeah no they they really didn't like that and that's probably an immediate blacklist yeah that yeah no potentially and i i it's a good question and we're still figuring out honestly um but then let's talk about the local the pitch at the co-op and the local pub thing because that's brilliant yeah so um we eventually got down to a short list of I think it's 30 brands yeah and this is this is for this this wasn't like a cold cool in that traditional sense to the beer by this was uh the apiary scheme that co-op do so sort of incubator for new brands so yeah so 30 30 brands invited up to Manchester to pitch um which um you know was quite nerve-wracking we were the first ones I think at nine o 'clock in the morning turned up to their boardroom to pitch in front of i don't know like 20 people throughout the business um but yeah we um we tried to make it as interesting and fun as possible um i mean just sort of very basic level we made co-branded t-shirts which is sort of quite cheap effective uh way of um just getting people on board um the deck itself we can talk about but sort of like our mic drop moment was at the end um sort of we'd done the presentation and we sort of said that thank you so much for the opportunity um to say thank you uh we have managed to get our local in your local and what we'd done the week before we'd spoken to ellie who's a buyer there and we sort of said to her like you know what we're going to need a pint after this Ellie like what's the local pub you all drink at after work and she told us and we spoke to the GN there and we were like look this is what we're doing with the co-op um if we chuck you a couple of three kegs can can you give us one of your taps um and they did so we got our we got our beer in in the pub they all drink at after work and like that mic drop moment at the end um I think it just shows that you know get shit done it's creative it's sort of a nice gesture but also at the end of the day of pictures they go to the pub to talk about you know all the brands they see and they're going to be drinking our beer again yeah so just front front of mind we were trying to be there and um yeah i just i just think also it's not this works with getting hold of buyers or persuading buyers but also consumers and it's something i'm teasing out more or trying to get my head around more is think everyone talks about the the brand on draft the brand on shelf the packaging but like the brand at home is is super interesting as well like hamden have done it so well with the big glasses that they kind of want you to nick and i'd be beaver town i've literally put a post on instagram before saying like oh i hope you glad glad you've got the um you know the beaver town glasses which is super like gorgeous to look at um parlor toothpaste toothpaste like cabs you whack up there they wanted it they kept thinking what does this look like in in a bathroom at home you guys i think with this works but that's consumer facing but with buyers it's like okay how do we think about the the touch point of what the buyer's doing outside of of the office and how do we influence not just when they're at their desk but how do we influence when they're at their local booze is so clever do you know what i mean i'm just thinking for people listening to this it's like ollie's the famous ollie's did it with socks yeah everyone wants bloody socks yeah put some i don't know why i'm playing with my socks but i am but um everyone wants when a buyer puts socks on it's like have a good day by ollie's yeah just remember when he's thinking think thinking of the brand further than than the shelf and the handle the the tap yeah there's no i mean you uh when we'd actually got through on the apiary I think you were at Glastonbury weren't you and you bumped into the buyer who was wearing a local t-shirt and it was just like oh that's amazing if you're at Glastonbury that's make or break yeah I think she called it just for the right time what time of day was it?

54:14early afternoon oh you're fine then imagine if it had been like 6am I was like what's that nutty sort of spider thing where it's like Arcadia Arcadia yeah yeah hey you up fancy our beer yeah that's jokes what um so going back to kind of advertising and and that business canvas what well actually let's specifically canvas what are the learnings you took from canvas the business that you applied to kind of the blank canvas of of local lovely lovely link there oh thanks mate yeah i like that um um that girl's coffee's kicking in yeah yeah but yeah what's some of the lessons you're like right we're not going to do that like that was that was great that was bad blank canvas let's go again i guess business wise really is like that was that i i think we were naive not naive because we knew what we were getting into but that was like it almost felt like a creative project you know we we both had full jobs it wasn't like that was our income it was like we were doing it as a side hustle in evenings sometimes at work uh on the weekends a little bit naughty guilty i don't think we really thought about the opportunity um we didn't look at the size of the market for artist design fashion where you know whereas you know before we got into beer we looked at beer and it's a 21 billion pound category in the uk alone so you know there's a huge prize there yeah and we looked at um you know data across the pond i think in in america sort of the light low calorie better for you beer market it's like 47 percent of the market you know they love it over there say it's not as big but in south africa and australia um it's like 20 20 30 percent of the market and here it's under four so we were sort of like hang on there i think there is an opportunity here that the mindset of the brit in retail is changing so much i mean people sort of want lighter healthier options at every touch point now when they go into a shop so we just thought there was a huge opportunity for this sector and it was just it just felt right to jump at it whereas we didn't have that thought going into the fashion thing it just felt like that'll be fun like that'll be really fun and then what are those creative bits you put into the brand now uh in terms of the packaging or in terms of the activations yeah because the packaging when i first saw it it strikes me as one of my sort of things i'm obsessing with at the minute is this art and brands and i think the stuff we talked about that they're they amalgamate nicely do i mean um but just thinking about how you we've talked about yeah no we talked about like how you do it with buyers and stuff but with the actual packaging what are the lessons you took from hanging out with artists that you applied to the packaging don't mean yeah interesting i think um from a sort of strategic place you know there's there's traditional beers which are very sort of male orientated traditional heritage brands such as speller or um i mean that's just the first time heineken all of them for all those all those traditional beers right and then you had the craft revolution which just totally flipped that on its head and you i think you know part of the reason i fell in love for this kind of category was camden town brewery um i had mates living just on that street when i think i went to the launch party sort of 10 12 years ago whatever just remember seeing that brand and being like wow i'd love to do something like that um but we knew we couldn't compete with craft you know that that is a really saturated market now it's been going for like 15 minutes so we were like right well 15 minutes 15 years so we knew yeah we knew we couldn't sort of compete with traditional

58:22I think you're pretty early mate We should jump on that Probably still an opportunity I reckon So we knew we couldn't really compete on those two fronts we had to do something that hadn't been done really so we were looking at it kind of like what happened in healthy snacking so what happened in the last 10 years in healthy snacking and how had those brands sort of differentiate themselves and i think it's good to look at different sectors and see what you're trying to do in what we're trying to do in beer had already kind of happened in soft drinks and healthy snacking so what can we learn from how those brands were positioning themselves that we could take a bit of so i think that's where um where we knew we wanted to be was like let's strip it back keep it really simple put some really like delicious um pastely colors in that really surprise and delight do something with the logo that beers aren't doing like create a brand rather than a brewery which i think differentiators from craft what do you think how do you what's the difference there between brand and brewery well like as in the mindset going into yeah we just knew we wanted to have a pure play product like one product um not to kind of bring out seven skews with it like brew dogs camden town beaver towns you know more like um what was happening in low and no like lucky saying really you know they have one product they do that really well we were just like that that's kind of where we want to be in the better for you space oh my god i am so so so excited it feels like hungry is finally swimming in the big leagues i can't believe this it's absolutely mental but delighted to announce a big fish yes big fish are part of the podcast Perry's been on the podcast three times listeners absolutely love it some of my most downloaded and cherished episodes of all time but Big Fish are behind literally so many brands in your cupboard in your weekly shop Charlie Biggum Year Valley, Tyrells Clipper T, Goo Rana, I mean make the listeners longer than the River Nile but they also share risk and invest in brands that they really believe are a force for good that are brands that they believe are going to be the next big thing, like how the snack that gives back.

1:00:40But even more exciting news, Big Fish want to speak to the next wave of small challenger food and drink providers that are destined for big things, the raconteurs, the movers, shakers, buccaneering visionaries. So look, if you want to speak to Big Fish and just have a chat, get your brand in front of them, then drop me a message. My mate Louis from Local Beer, Amazing Beer, was in their office, a.k.a. La Fishbowl, last week chatting to Perry, Freddy, and the Big Fish crew. So drop me a message if you would like to speak to them. I bombed into Badman, Oli Badman, today on the way here. And we were talking about the one thing well, which is the peaceful resistance for Lucky Saint, do you know what I mean?

1:01:26And I think it just drills into the... yeah it's it's so easy to get to get pulled left right and center that's what the asher guy was saying as well yesterday with all his jams he had so many jams they're kind of cannibalizing each other and it's like when you're starting out as much as it's nice to try and be a camden town brewery or a beaver town or a um a brew dog having that laser focus worked and i think you've stolen in the queues of health um but then the pastely works with the it's still it's still it's not so out of place it's a bit like trip i always talk about trip as example but i've been walking around nope the uh show to nope nope nope um natural organic products europe okay yeah wouldn't make the way over it's nothing that thrilling but when cbd was just getting to the uk and he'd rolled around either like a pot farm everyone was like trying to do a snoop dog knockoff or it was really um like look look like you're walking into a chemist chemistry so it's like loads of numbers loads of mc whatever trip come in stole the cues of like wellness calming pastel colors yeah apply trip away you go it just and and it they've like grown that category what do you the uk consumer is not the us consumer and it's not the australian consumer is not the sapphire consumer what i was talking about this the other day about why hard sops is not really kicking off i was speaking to dash about this and found a dash yeah like one the us you get one whole foods listing in the us that's 250 stores UK it's 7 stores so that category of retail is way bigger over there Los Angeles no California is 1.7 times bigger than the UK you get one state you get 3 states in America like that's 5, 6, 7 times the UK what do you think are going to be the biggest hurdles ahead with this nascent category and you as the player in that nascent category Okay.

1:04:05That's a good question the market was just flooded with hard seltzers and I think you know so supply was was high and then I think we've just got a very different drinking culture in the UK like for example we've got pubs and nobody's going to a pub and ordering a hard seltzer but we do we do love drinking beer everyone drinks at home in the US as well apparently yeah that's so dumb but as in like more people drink at home than they do like as you say if we're going for a drink exactly we go to the pub yeah in the States this is what the athletic guys said is more people consume at home right I mean I don't know enough about the hot shelter market really I think there's some great brands out there and I'm sure there'll be some winners before we start trashing all the hard seltzer brands no no I don't think I've got my mate Nick runs High Water he's an absolute legend and I think there will there will be winners it's just not going to be the gold rush that people thought it was going to be back in lockdown and also in lockdown it was working because you had nowhere to drink so hard seltzers were the one because you know getting boozed up in a park was anything you could do it like it works but yeah back to the back to the first question about the the challenges up ahead what would you say those are with a british consumer yeah great i mean i think hard to forecast but i think an educational piece and finding the right brand fit for them i think people are wanting to make that change and if you give them the option of you can drink three beers for the calories the sugar the carplette two is kind of a easy choice if you don't have to compromise on taste so i think it's just proving the model um getting the listings and then getting out into people's hands liquid on lips um what are the hurdles yeah uh gatekeepers i guess one um i feel like gatekeepers um a lot of companies we sort of fit fit into their sort of esr um targets you know a lot a lot of the buyers we've been speaking to from above they they've been told they need to cut calories across their range um yeah provide more healthy options better nutritional information so you know we we fit into that perfectly i think also more people are getting wanting to get less buzzed on the night out now i think so yeah like case in point is like people have done dry january that's so much that's grown so much that people realize i want to go back i don't want to get too sort of leathered do you know i mean i think so we often say that we've sort of selfishly designed a beer that we want to drink yeah you know something that you can go to a pub with your friends have a few pints not get too drunk uh and not consume like a domino's pizza worth of calories at the end of it that's been the battle of my life it really has so how can you do like doing keto for like three days and then just go in the slam like a few beers like just you can't diet doing that yeah i mean it's so frustrating it really is though you guys got fast metabolism isn't it well I don't know either it's quite a something to make but we just drink lots of local yeah the local diet so you do the running you run around Hampstead Heath you scratch your own itch which I think is brilliant like create the product you want to create because if you want it other people probably want it what's the first step you take like you're in the pub come up with a name then what I guess making the beer yeah it was finding the right partners to develop the recipe with wasn't it we sort of went and met a few breweries so how do you go on google like what's literally the first step you do the next day um so we got a few few connections in the beer brewing world um so we already knew a few breweries how did you know them through through friends um introductions so we went we went and met a number of different breweries um found one that was um the right sort of size for us and you know we'd brief them on what we wanted and you know yeah i think that's they understand it did we did we vibe with them um could we see ourselves working with them um i think that's a good point is that we wanted to find the right size brewery right that was like we weren't going to get lost like i think that you sometimes when you're starting out, you want to be with the best and the biggest.

1:09:06But actually, if you're starting out, you get lost in those partnerships. And so we wanted to find someone to sort of grow together with. So we found a sort of small to medium-sized brewer. Did anyone laugh at your idea or any difficult conversations when you're having those initial brewery chats? Did anyone tell you it was done?

1:09:26They might have thought it, but they didn't say it. They didn't say it to our faces.

1:09:34well now we think they might have yeah no but i guess that's part of the process quite literally yeah it's really rude we we we picked a brewery who was excited about it yeah yeah yeah who could see the potential to grow with us that's kind of what we were looking for and then when does how do you actually go and get the get the product like what you wanted did you take them uh so we took down sort of four or five beers that we really like um they are all uh like neck oil was one of them um meantime meantime brixton low voltage um we didn't want it to be a lager we definitely wanted it to be a pale ale because you know if you if you take away um some of the body from a lager what you're left with is a very watery beer whereas with a pale ale you can sort of compensate by adding hops and giving it a bit more flavor i think that was our biggest sort of problem at the start was how do you convince people this isn't going to be a sacrifice on taste so what's the percentage of pale ale drinkers to lager drinkers in the uk i'm not sure the exact same bit is it's not as big for sure it's maybe like i don't know i hate to help it off my head it's the i think lager is the largest category but parallels the fastest growing right okay and then would you ever go into a lager and i'm just asking this is interesting because as you're saying how it's big enough for um well i completely get it but like the the the catcher in the uk is is mainly a lager drinker isn't it?

1:11:15I think. It is, yeah, it is. We can do, it is an option, but our strategy is one skew, do one skew and do it really well. Yeah. And then, we've kind of touched upon, I think it was really interesting when you guys said about how much research you've done. Sort of look at the canvas, as it were, and see where the gap is. In terms of actually getting this going, what's been the strategy year one, year two of this is how we're going to build a beer brand or a locale beer brand? So strategy is always being sort of London first and predominantly London on trade. so we launched earlier in the year we did our sort of proper launch into the London Entree into a number of puffs so it's sort of following in the footsteps of your Camden Town your Beaver Town, your Brixton's who all built up a brand in the London Entree and then what do you do?

1:12:35How do you get a new beer brand on tap? Because getting on shelf is bloody hard getting on getting a product on or in like an indie shelf is really hard yeah it's a lot of pounding the street it's a lot of going to meet independent pubs um you know there's a lot of pub chains out there that you have to go to the sort of like top ops manager so we saw the low hanging fruit as like the independents let's go and introduce ourselves get friendly with them introduce them to the product tell them why it's a good fit and yeah that can take from from that point to getting on tap can take can be sort of a week it could be a few months but you've got to put in those hard yards and we're still doing it look we're out tomorrow all day on the street yeah and um you know we've got a few really great um great partners that have just supported us from the start um and now we're trying to get into a few bigger um sort of groups yeah so we we recently got a um a listing of metropolitan pubs which is the premium arm of green king um and that's a slightly different process that is you have to go to the ops director of the company um almost like you'd approach a sort of retail buyer get their attention get them to try it um and then they sort of give you the green light to start speaking to the pubs in their network.

1:14:01How do you build the relationship once you've got it on tap? And actually, you know, first step, what do you say to get it on tap? Like you walk in, and I think the fact your founders, as we were talking about on the train to Manchester, is a massive... whatever that is. Boon? Bonus. Bonus. Bonus. Yeah. Boon. Boon. I think that's a word, isn't it? Boon. Boon? A good thing? I don't know. Anyway, what are you saying to get it on tap? Because there's literally six taps. Yeah, and that is interesting. I mean, there'll usually be sort of a set of taps, right? Which will be four will be, one will be Guinness, one will be Heineken, Amstel, Foster's, whatever they're serving.

1:14:49Then you'll have the craft beers. Then you might have a couple of local, you know, rotational taps. and then alternate taps. It depends. I mean, some of them are tied to bigger companies where they can't change that. You just have to find out, really. You just have to ask some questions. You know, we usually come in and like, one, kind of speak to the GM because, you know, when we first started, we were talking to bar staff who didn't have any power either way. So, you know. And we're in interest. And we're in interest. Yeah, we're like, I'm washing glasses, mate. Can you piss off? So, yeah, just find the person who's going to make the decision.