How Mindful Chef Scaled to + £75 Million Revenue and Maintained Culture at 130 Employees - Myles Hopper, Mindful Chef founder

0:00Hello there and welcome to Hungry. Hungry is the podcast for the next wave of challenger food and drink brands looking to pour gasoline all over their growth. Each week we'll interview successful founders, thought leaders, unpack their lessons and provide you with a toolkit to scale super fast. I am Dan Pope, I am your host and without further ado, let's get started.

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3:40Hello there, people and listeners of The Hungry Podcast. Today, I'm utterly thrilled and very, very grateful to welcome Myles Hopper onto the podcast. Myles is the co-founder of Mindful Chef, who make insanely delicious recipe boxes. I actually had one the other evening. It was absolutely gorgeous. I'm sure we all know Mindful Chef. They really kind of have challenged the recipe box category. They've had huge success selling part of the business to Nestle in November 2020. They've worked with some amazing people, Ben Fogel and Fern Cotton are big advocates of the brand and even have a kind of an illustrious list of celebrities who have invested Tom Daly and Andy Murray.

4:23So thank you so much for coming on, Miles. I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me, Dan. It's great to chat to you. So where I always try and start these conversations is I like to rewind back to the super kind of nascent stages of every brand or every founder I interview. And doing some research for this, I've read numerously that, you know, in 2015, yourself, Giles and Rob were on a fishing boat in the Exeter Exeterry, and you're sort of bringing back this fresh fish. And this was where kind of the idea for Mindful Chef kind of really began to bubble in your mind at least but then what you've said on numerous podcasts which i found really interesting you said yourself and um jiles would meet in london for lunches and discuss various business ideas that weren't mindful chef out of sheer curiosity i'd love to know some of the ideas that didn't quite well yeah that didn't make the table pre-mindful chef yeah sure um so i'd say yeah well all three of us really um actually rob rob also involved um and you know we're all all from the same school but slightly different ages so went away and did our own things then sort of came back but also similar ages you'd always sort of spend time together you know outside of school whether it's playing sports or going on holidays all those sorts of things um some of the other ideas i mean far simpler than a a um fresh food company you know they're all the sort of ones which you come and seem like sort of been been relatively successful i guess like the most the best examples probably like the on like online delivery of razor blades or razor sort of kits you know and you think oh if you've done that and you see some of the uh the examples that have done exceptionally well um you think well that might have been a bit easier to sort of shift and lift rather than you know a million and a half or sort of one and a half million ingredients going through a warehouse every single week and having to go in and out you know it's a lot easier to probably store some razor blades in some boxes and send them out as when needed and and so what made you guys pick the harder challenge because in my mind i was like fair play like you have they always say take the path of least resistance you've in many respects taken the path of path of most resistance what was the why in mindful chef versus the other businesses um i think it's really about getting behind something you can be passionate about so you know we've always been growing up in devon we're very lucky that we've always had access to great food and seen it on our doorsteps through friends or fantastic suppliers you know you don't have to go very far on a walk to see some uh you know some some farms or whether you're walking along the estuary like we do most days and you know you see the fishermen going out on their boats things like that so really you know we've always had sort of a sort of connection with food and then really it was um our passion around sort of healthy eating as well and a healthier lifestyle And that sort of stems from my background, actually being involved in health and nutrition.

7:31And then from Robin Giles' sort of viewpoint, I think they've always been very active, always been outdoors, etc. And really, it was a pain point for them. So actually, if we could solve this pain point for a lot of people, you can get a razor blade fairly easily yourself, actually. Convenience of having it ordered online, don't get me wrong, it's great. But it's not hard to do it yourself. whereas actually eating healthily week in week out is really difficult for a lot of us and actually being able to solve that problem we realize okay maybe we have a true like sort of positive impact on a lot more people so i think that's probably why we sort of centered around this idea more and really wanted to push it but don't get me wrong also it's probably the naivety of going well how hard can it be go give it a go you realize pretty quickly yes it's a lot harder than you thought no i love that and i think it's i suppose for listeners you know most listeners to this podcast are all challenger brands and i think a lot of people can often look for the easy path but if that doesn't ignite that passion internally then yes it may be easy but if you've ever got that hunger the more hunger you've got the more passion you've got the easier it is to kind of push through obstacles i suppose um and again listening to podcasts is that there's this stage and I think it's amazing and I've completely taken my hat off to you, but you'd say you're going around Devon trying to get these farmers to basically sell you like three chicken breasts, two steaks, and like 10 pieces of kale.

9:01And you said, I think it was on the Firm Cotton podcast, you know, they just laugh in your face. And I kind of want to unpack, one, the resilience yourself, Giles and Rob have got, and two, almost your persuasive techniques because I think everyone is going to have to be able to sell and persuade. It's like, it's, it's just mandatory in everything we're trying to do. So when they're, when these farmers were kind of laughing in your face, how did you stay resilient in that moment and be like, actually, no, we're just going to keep going. Cause I think listeners will really appreciate this. Yeah.

9:36I mean, when we say laugh in your face, it was, it doesn't come across as harshly, I think as that can sound. I think it was more jovial, you know, sort of as your connections are and these individuals are. They're not negative people out to get you. They're just sort of that connection, I guess, and rapport. I guess it comes back to that point about being passionate about what you're doing, really. And as entrepreneurs, first and foremost, you're going to have to be like an element of your personality is going to have to sell, you know, or your job role is going to have to be to sell as much as we actually lots of us don't enjoy doing it necessarily and uh it's one of the first things you might um you might look to see if you can get support on but um when you have a product as interesting as food i think um you know it's one of the most shared sort of um pieces of content on the internet it's one of the the biggest things people can get passionate about and speak about why i love it is because it creates conversation around the dinner table and and if you ever go somewhere and you don't know somebody but you're sat down having dinner together you can instantly build a rapport talking about the amazing sort of flavors ingredients recipes dinners you're sort of eating so that's what I love and I think um yeah you know when we did go around you had some some of the sort of farmers laugh in your face and go this just isn't really worth my time it's you know speaking passionately about well this is our plan this is why i think it's big this is how we can help you as well actually you know the whole idea was actually can we pay our suppliers like a sort of a better rate than what they're getting from maybe some of the bigger players in the market and how the traditional model had been done so i think you know a lot of a lot of them thankfully did take a bit of a punt and go okay it might be a bit more effort and time and it's really worth right now but I like these guys and you know I like what they're trying to do and believe in the idea I guess as well and um yeah and sort of would package and send out a couple of steaks a couple of jiggle breasts in the early days when um it probably wasn't worth their time but thankfully they did I love that and I think what you've what you said there I suppose you've answered the question about how to be persuasive it's kind of like one of your passionate and then you couple that with focusing on the pain point of whether that's for your the mindful chef consumer or the farmer or the retailer i think those are kind of the the two pillars of i suppose selling and when you said you felt uncomfortable at selling i know for a fact so many listeners to this will get pet i mean i used to get so petrified speaking to buyers like literally petrified would you be able to speak to that like how did you kind of overcome that fear was it repetition or yeah I mean when I say that I mean my background obviously in health and things and I was a personal trainer for the best part of 10 years so one of the first things you have to do what people don't realize is they think it's all about health and training and just getting to train people all day actually the first thing you've got to do is find people to train so actually you're thrown straight into the sort of lines then of gym floors of actually trying to sell yourself and sell your own business so um i sort of had some background there of being able to do it but it's exactly as you say i think it's all around repetition and it's about getting out not being afraid to hear no like that's the best the best people um best salesmen in the world they don't mind hearing no you know this they don't take it as a negative sort of um point they actually use it more they have that sort of growth mindset to go okay well how am I actually going to take that no and either persuade this person another way or how am I actually going to use it to change my approach in my next conversation with somebody else so actually I think you can you can learn from that but really it is as you say it's about repetition it's about learning what and listening to people what is their response what are they saying to you how can you change your approach how can you change your attack etc et cetera um but repetition is the most important thing no definitely no and i think as well because i suppose for us at the beginning at manny life i'll just go in and be like this peanut butter tastes amazing and that was the passion bit but in terms of the actual pain point the retailer's like why do i need this and it took us a long long time to understand to almost speak in their language um no no i i love that i love that miles and again you've referenced you referenced at beginning of this conversation that one of the advantages was that um obviously three co-founders all from the same school um but there's there must be this unfair advantage of being different year groups is what i kind of getting what would you say that unfair unfair advantage is because i think again lots of listeners may be in co-founder partnerships and you kind of hear these stories from the graveyard where it doesn't work um i'd love to know the advantage of the different year groups yeah i guess um to balance that in two ways like one around the age point and then one around co-founders in general but co-founders in general um we're like big advocates because if you're a single founder like you know hats off to you because it's incredibly hard and can be i imagine incredibly isolating and lonely at certain times and the best thing i would say is try and get yourself a mentor in that situation because actually being able to talk to someone regularly or just have them listen to you or even potentially offer advice is sort of invaluable.

15:01And with co-founders, especially myself, Giles, and Rob, we have three very different skill sets as well, which is really complementary to the business. So we don't tread on each other's toes a lot either. So Rob, he comes from a financial background, so incredibly good with numbers. He's really focused on sort of the operational side of the business where he sort of excels. Giles, his background's always been in marketing and brand, so he's been really focused on that. And then my background, health and nutrition, but equally sort of very much people-focused, so more centered, moved away from the marketing and brand over the last year or two and actually more into a community-focused role around our sort of customer care, our community, both internally, externally, and then sustainability, et cetera, as well.

15:45So, you know, the three different personalities can work really well across the business and sort of sort of lend our sort of skills into those areas and then to your point around sort of ages and and why is that beneficial that wasn't something we thought about beforehand it was just purely out of okay we've spoken about doing some things where our skill sets where our passions etc and actually they just sort of came together and formed mindful chef at the right time it probably could have been done with a couple of different people actually potentially but maybe the skill sets or or what people were doing just weren't lining up um but what it really allows i guess is we are very good friends but equally potentially we're not best friends and we have best friends outside of this sort of our um our group day-to-day life i actually generally though speak to rob and giles more than anyone else equally at the same time but you know i think that allows us the thing is if you are potentially going to meet others outside of work you're not always around those people as well so you've always got the level of separation from it so you can sort of get away whereas i think if you're starting things with best friends probably some of the stories you're mentioning is you probably are always in each other's pockets due to the very nature of work um of work in a in a startup like growth sort of business where you're you're constantly having to talk to one another and then if you're also seeing each other at the weekends non-stop etc you know we all have those ups and downs in these businesses then i imagine yeah it gets a bit more bit more stressful or all this sort of pressure gets piled on a bit more if you're constantly constantly in each other's pockets as well it's so interesting and I think as kind of trying to look it through a lens of money life when we go for our team sort of piss ups I suppose is we've almost now got to make a rule of we don't talk about work because before you know it it's just it's an even longer meeting because you're just talking about boom and boom and I think I I suppose for listeners, because sometimes it's husband and wife, which I don't know how people do that.

17:43That is to me, like, again, commend you massively. But I think having this separation or putting in these boundaries of when we discuss work and play, I suppose, you've got to have the two to sort of balance each other out. And I suppose, and this maybe don't have to give us too much on this, but I'd love to know, like, has there been a potentially, not a bust up but has there been maybe some conflict of interest between you three on the journey like a really sparkling moment that you can remember and I'd love to know like one how you resolve that conflict and two how like are there any systems you put in place to make sure you're making the right decision for mindful yeah um plenty it's probably the first time amazing uh You know, but the good thing is you generally got two versus one.

18:38So you can always come to a conclusion or a result at the end of it. Look, I think we built Mindful Chef, you know, from three friends and our first customers and team members were family and friends. So one of our biggest values at Mindful Chef is actually being personal and trying to maintain that as we continue to grow. So I think bearing that in mind, we expect people to bring their real selves to work and we expect people to really say what's on their mind and communicate it properly because it's better to have everything out in the open and actually lay all your cards on the table and be able to actually come to a good decision that everyone's happy with.

19:21But even if you don't necessarily agree, at least you've managed to voice your opinion and sort of what you might want to do. So with that in mind, I guess, yeah, we've constantly had, you know, issues where we don't necessarily agree as a trio or potentially one of us or two of us want to go down one route and, you know, somebody else doesn't. um also can happen with hires with other team members etc where personalities can clash or ways of working in class which is sort of centurated or magnified i think in in startup environments where you're generally working you know in in a small room probably and you know you just have clashes like business moves at such a fast pace um so there's been lots of different yeah examples over the years where we've all clashed and then you know like as i said two versus one generally wins um but how we sort of stop that now and sort of looking further ahead for the business well actually probably i think it was about four years ago now maybe a bit more actually four or five years ago um we actually brought a an individual into the company to come and do a project for us work on our prepared sort of frozen range because we didn't have any experience um and thought actually rather than just uh giving it a go which we could have done we thought actually it's probably more it's probably more intelligent now to to bring somebody in with the big experience so we can move it a bit quicker um and get them out to our customers and actually we saw how this individual um worked with the team and saw how they interacted and actually thought okay they do a really good job how about they potentially become our sort of CEO and lead the company because we also we don't mind bringing in really smart individuals around us to help as long as it's going to like benefit the company we've always done that from the beginning and actually at that point we really wanted to focus in on those sort of um different channels as I sort of explained earlier for myself Giles and Rob and focus on our real skill set rather than sort of getting involved in every single area of the business which all of all sort of entrepreneurs and founders will do um so and in order to do that you need to have somebody else at the helm who can sort of go okay no you need to focus on this this individual will focus here don't worry so actually brought in tim as our ceo probably about four years ago um which a lot of startups don't do and we had a lot of questions around why would you want to do that why would you sort of relinquish that level of control if you will but we don't see it like that it's very much a working partnership between ourselves and tim and actually the rest of the sort of leadership team anyway um and actually what it's really allowed us to do is stop necessarily having those sort of you know two versus one scenarios or rather than it being super opinionated it's actually more of a strategic focus for the business bohemi our beloved sponsor are helping build the fastest growing challenger food and drink brands look if you're a small brand just starting out and need your first indie stockist your first hundred stockist to wholesale bohemi are the platform to categorically speed that up but if you're a big brand wanting to get bigger bohemi are also insane they make field sales marble smooth silky slick they're just epic ollie's ollie's been on this podcast twice actually they saw a 29 uplift in sales when using bohemi to check major malt listings availability insane 29 uplift by downloading an app insane lucky saying my boy aaron duff is coming on this podcast in a couple of weeks weeks he uses it to manage the team of 30 people and they've lucky to have unlocked 500 draft listings by using bowie me look you've got to get involved with this stuff it's absolutely insane and it will categorically change your life it's just the sickest platform i use it all the time at ireland you know one of our values is being personal and bringing your real selves to work now um i love values i think they are that sort of the linchpin and the the pillars of building great brands but i think actually manifesting the values on a day-to-day basis is not always that you, I mean, you can put them on a bloody wall, but it's not like there's actually bring them to life is, it's really hard for brands.

23:27How do you like, what's the how, like, how do you encourage mindful chef employees to bring themselves to full selves to work? And really, if they disagree with something like encourage that, like, how do you do that? Yeah, it's really hard. It's a lot easier when you're smaller, right? And everyone's bought in, like really heavily bought into the mission for one reason or another you know you generally you're not paying the salaries they're used to so they're joining you know if they're joining they're joining as part of the mission and they've really bought in whereas when you get a bit bigger and you probably have a bit more financial resource you're probably paying a bit closer to what they might normally expect elsewhere so you know you're still trying to help get people in who really do buy into that mission but equally there's always that sort of seesaw balancing act But for us, I mean, when we were similar sized to what Manny Life is, maybe a bit small, actually, about 11 people, we took the whole team away and we said, right, this is what we think about the company.

24:27And these individuals have been with us for a couple of years and for the life and sort of soul of Mindful Chef. And we said, but rather than telling you what we think our value should be, what do you really think they should be as well? so did like a sort of a day where we worked with them went to like lululemon's like head office did like yoga have brunch then all sat around and sort of did it with um sort of brand guru who was on our board at the time so worked really well actually and we came up with the three values being mindful personal and unafraid and which fit in with mindful chef really well but as you say as you get bigger it gets harder and harder to sort of build that into everyone's um sort of weekly or daily habits in the right word but just sort of way that they think about work I guess and how do we ensure people do bring their real selves to work I think it's just ensuring that they have channels of communication and areas that they can voice things I mean we really champion our value so at the end of every quarter you can nominate anyone in the business who you think has lived or breathed value for one reason or another and we'll have you know a list of about 50 individuals which will come back from peers around the business and then myself giles tim and rob will actually go through them all and we'll go okay well who do we think should like win at this this quarter and then we'll call them all up in like a big meeting or when we go to i don't know summer party christmas party etc and then we'll tell everyone why why this individual might have won you know being unafraid or what they've done what what does that really mean for the business what does that mean for the individual etc um and that's a really nice way to sort of bring it to life and call it out and then there's other things like you know as i said like being unafraid in the early days you know just going okay let's give it a go it's fresh food how hard can it be um you know taking big boys all those sorts of things um how do we get people to think like that as you get bigger um you know they might come from more corporate backgrounds etc where there's specific ways of working and actually you want them to sort of take on that real growth mindset startup sort of um um attitude and i guess we run things like you know feast of failure sort of sessions where jiles is actually running one sort of next week or week after where he's going to take the whole team through you know sort of like a working group so he'll go well here's some of the things we failed on in the past like tell us some of yours etc etc and hopefully we get that sort of communication where people aren't afraid to talk about it and then actually you get some of these sort of positive points of how people managed to deal with it or how they moved on post that sort of session that's so interesting and and so is that feast of failure yes yeah that is brilliant yeah that sounds like yeah i probably have a lot to say at that feast um and what um because again doing the research you guys are growing at such like a ravenous pace what is the actual size of the team now total uh so this team is probably about 130 I think sort of head office and managers and then we have a sort of um we work in a hybrid model with our packer so we'll have our managers up in the warehouse and then sort of all the the team that pack the boxes actually they're they're employed by our sort of third party packer so about 130 in the mindful chef team though and then we've got um a fantastic team and our partners who pack all the boxes that's mental because I think there's there's like 17 at money life I'm like oh my god we're huge 130 that's crazy and and you said the the brand guru at um lululemon who who was that and why did he or she like what sort of wisdom did their spouse on mindful i'd love to kind of yeah so i mean that was um he's actually our board member so he was um he's actually called leslie butterfield and so a big um history and background in brand and advertising and actually he's a sort of a family acquaintance of Jars's who in the very early days is something else we did that not many people do is um after about six months of um sort of trading and gaining some momentum we um we we needed a bit of money because it was all self-funded and and you know we were getting to that point should we go and look for some or what should we do and actually thought okay well should we set up a board because actually we got as i said there's three of us and you know we constantly uh talk about which direction to go and actually potentially by setting up a board we can get a bit more wisdom and really focus on on our direction strategic approach and actually um at that time jiles said well i know this individual um he could be really good we met with him we thought okay this would be a fantastic person to bring onto the team and so he added leslie and then a couple of other sort of angel investors who were involved in the health and wellness industry at the time um who could offer a bit of advice from from that sort of angle and so actually we had a board set up um you know within the first sort of six to eight months of of trading and actually that really allowed us to focus on our proposition and not pivot or you know it's the the word everyone likes to use um pivot too early or try and do something else when times are hard and maybe you aren't quite getting the traction but really focusing on your USP, on your product and your customers.

29:49I love that. And so Leslie's background, you said, what sort of brands did he work with? Yeah, so he was at Interbrand. So I actually worked on a whole sort of wealth of campaigns, but I guess his biggest one was to help new labor get into power, like Tony Blair at the time, etc etc so like an exceptionally knowledgeable individual who we were extremely lucky to bring on board in the early days and actually been with the business ever since so yeah fantastic person to have as part of the team really helped us sort of over the years no i love that because every guest i interview always has mentors so like obviously you know you're going to be a mentor to everyone listen to this but i always find it interesting to to sort of unpack the lessons from your mentors what would you say has kind of been the most salient piece of yeah wisdom leslie's passed on to you guys that's yeah well i mean you know he was global chief strategy officer at interbrand so he's by the top of the top um and so if anything leslie sort of tells you or piece of advice you listen pretty intently but equally there's also you know things that you might disagree on because just the nature of startups fast-paced being in a very new category of um you know d2c online food etc etc but i think it really comes down to strategy and customers with leslie he's exceptionally passionate about understanding your customers and their interaction with the product and are you really dealing or solving the problem and i think in in regard that regard that really made us focus you know like i said don't change your product too early don't just go and try and sell them something else that they don't particularly want really understand your customers get under the skin of them talk to them you know we even nowadays we'll still ring up customers but in the very early days it was ringing up you know the hundred we had every week or whatever again right what do you think can i have five minutes of your time can i talk to you let me understand how you're using this what you like what you dislike what could we do better all of these sorts of things which people really don't want to do necessarily because it's hard and might not necessarily be the best at speaking or thinking i don't really want to ring up a customer and bother them on like you know 7 p.m or whatever or their lunch break um but if you can build that rapport with them in the early days uh then you know actually they don't mind and actually you can find out a lot of really useful information that can sort of help you determine which path you take moving forward no i love that i suppose what again what i'm garnering from this conversation is you guys often take the path of most resistance but that is usually the path which has the greatest or reeks the greatest benefit and i think with calling those there's this article with i think it's called like a thousand true fans um with by kevin kelly and it's like if you can turn the all you need is a thousand customers who absolutely love your product and then they'll tell and it kind of has this spiral effect.

32:51And I think for anyone listening to this, and we should probably do this at Moneylife as well, is getting to know your customers on a more human level is so, so powerful. Well, yeah. And it's a lot easier to sell a thousand customers a lot more than it is to go like your thousand best customers who absolutely love you rather than it is to go and find 10 ,000 more customers who might like, you might not, you know? So if you can really look after your like best customers and that's why we place a big emphasis on you know the three values as well and especially being personal we have a closed facebook community of about 20 000 customers i think and they're like your super fans who absolutely love the brand and they put their pictures up every day of the food talk about it they go and do the the community events all those sorts of things and they know individuals in the team by name and i think it's about actually building that personal connection which we were really conscious about in the early days that's why we put miles and jars as the face that's why we would actually bring up customers it's a lot easier just to send an email but actually ring up go and do the events meet people in person build that rapport and then actually like you say you can understand a lot more and equally it can be quite beneficial for the company like business in the long run as well no definitely and i think so with the facebook group were you how were you kind of building that two-way conversation if that makes sense um i guess it's as you get bigger you sort of need to find the more scalable option other than the you know the yoga brunches which we run on weekends for customers the supper clubs the cooking classes we actually had a cooking class last week which was really cool after you know a couple of years of not being able to run any with some of our sort of top customers um but i think i think a lot of people are looking for personal connections these days they're looking for communities like that they can interact with and the mindful chef one is just quite a nice one actually to be involved in because you get to talk about food you know like i said we're solving a real pain point for people in terms of making healthy eating easy so actually you have a lot of amazing stories off of the back of it whether it be health related you know helping somebody maybe diabetes like diabetes type 2 we have a lot of those sort of people who just healthy eating is made a lot easier or whether it's somebody i don't know just on their own personal health journey it might be actually individuals who partners have never cooked before or their children aren't interested in cooking but because everything comes in the bag it's all pre-portioned they have a step-by-step sort of recipe guide um actually individuals who've never cooked before will cook or they start cooking more more often and then that sort of has that real sense of achievement and pride at the end of it so that's when people go look what i cooked everyone and then you know because we have a nice community everyone's quite supportive as well they'll put up their own pictures etc etc so i think it's just individuals sort of having that positive impact having that sense of achievement or pride in what they're sort of doing and then being able to, to share that on a sort of wider basis with others who are doing the same thing.

36:05No, I love it. And I, to be honest, it solved lots of my pain points because sort of my factory setting, I suppose, is, is fatty with like, with lashings of gluttony. Like I will literally on the way back from work, just go and grab a pizza or like, not even a pizza, just like pasta and just stuff that isn't healthy. And I subscribed to your boxes in January after quite a heavy Christmas, lots of Christmas pudding and uh and yeah there's i suppose it's mindful in terms of what you're eating but there's also like almost just there's a mindfulness and just kind of chopping like it's almost like monotonous meditation and in that hour whilst i'm cooking the dish i'm not uh i don't know i don't know how to sort of explain it like i if i get a pizza and whack it in the oven i'm just that's 20 minutes i'm just gonna be on my phone right but by parking my phone and just putting some music on it's mindfulness mindfulness manifests in such way more ways than just a plate of food and that's something i really kind of appreciate what you guys are doing um yeah i think you know we live very much like people with similar ages to ourselves like the older younger you know everyone's on on their phones the whole time you can order food straight away you know have it delivered not have the only cooking but actually there's a real as you say mindful element to the actual cooking process especially if you're following a recipe now going to shop for a recipe is time consuming and difficult because you don't know where all the spices are in the shop you don't know if they've got xyz but actually when you have it all delivered and it's made so easy actually you just go okay where are my tomatoes okay what's the step i've got to chop those where's my spring onion chop those what sort of sauce do i do so you're looking through it when you and you know the process of like of actually eating starts when you see the ingredients you know your digestive system actually gets activated as you start looking at the different colors of food and as you start smelling the different sort of flavors that come from cooking and things like that you know when you salivate all that's that's actually the start of the digestive process so that's really interesting as well but i'm 100 with you on the mindful element of just chopping following a recipe not being able to think about other things because you're in the moment which is really nice this day and age where everything this conversation right now is all set up via technology and we're online the whole time so actually being able to take that sort of break if it be for half an hour and just cook and then also have that when you've cooked something you take a bit more time and notice over eating it you just order a pizza and it gets delivered or a takeaway meal or whatever bang to your door thank you very much you pop it in the oven take it out bang back to what i'm doing tv phone whatever you don't really talk about it when you cook the meal and you go oh that's an ingredient i've never used before or this is a you know teriyaki salmon never had that before whatever it might be and if especially if you're sharing a meal with somebody you go do you like that i'm not sure it wasn't my favorite last night i preferred this one or yeah oh maybe i do love that one favorite that next time it comes around you know you talk about the the meal a bit more so it's not just the cooking element it's also the eating element afterwards which is really important because we've we've lost a part of that um you know as a sort of society where you see children on ipads and or eating different meals etc etc we're not really talking anymore it's a nice way actually to connect no definitely and i'm just sort of thinking out loud now but i when i would just get like a pizza or just whack some pasta on i'd be if i'm on my phone i'm actually literally scoffing it it's almost like the speed of the internet is the speed I'm scoffing like but I made I think it was your um it was like your chicken rosti uh with tarragon and an egg I think it was like a couple of weeks ago one that is something I'd never cooked so it ignites his creativity in your brain I was like I would never think of putting chicken like in an actual potato thing I was like it's so banging but once you've taken time to eat it you actually sorry to cook it you take time to eat it and that is yeah as I say it's like why I revere you guys so much is you're bringing back that moment of of yeah well literally mindfulness in people's chaotic um chaotic chaotic days um where i want to jump to now and it kind of does tie into this this almost mindfulness piece because lots of founders i've interviewed on this are super super driven the next thing the next thing the next thing um and one of the guests i interviewed was roger wade who's the founder of uh box park and he said something really, really sort of pertinent.

40:35And he was like, a lot of founders are set up businesses sort of overcome kind of childhood, not yeah, sort of insecurities or something like that. And it's something I'm beginning to think about more. Would you, what would you say, were there any insecurities that you were trying to not over, yeah, potentially overcome and that's given you this kind of relentless drive with, with mindful chef? Um, I'm not sure about insecurities. I think we've all all three of us have had parents who have either started their own businesses or you know gone on to to um run their own sort of thing so i think in that sense you've always been around individuals who have gone and done it so you probably have that in the back of your and whether it's worked or not is irregardless you know and that whole sort of feast on failure sort of mvp startup and just see how how it goes mentality's always been there um but i think equally it's also just probably sparked something to go god you know what you can just give it a go and other people have done it and actually sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't but we'll go and do it i don't think there's necessary insecurities there i don't know i can't really speak for giles and rob but um you know from myself i don't think so it's more a thing i've worked for myself for many years and didn't really fancy working for anyone else either and actually the opportunity to go and start something with a couple of friends which could be far bigger than we'd ever be able to do individually on our own or within other companies was um you know something really exciting to go and do no definitely and i think maybe institute well that was the phrase roger said but i think it's maybe a different word it's kind of like almost trying to get into the why or the understanding the bigger picture of why you guys could do and i think if all your family members have been there and done that you've got that almost this kind of self-belief through school whatever like yeah we can do this and i think lots of founders or people who potentially setting up the business trying to trying to leave that safety net of of maybe a corporate job it's a very hard thing to cross that chaston but i think with you guys if your parents have done it um it makes it not easier but it gives you the belief to do it i think is what i'm learning yeah i would also say we we're not like we're not stupid individuals either we all well hope not but you know we we we didn't leave our jobs straight away we equally we carried on working myself and rob worked for the best part 12 months doing both jobs and you know so i'd go and train clients 30 35 hours a week and then when i'd finish sort of after lunch i'd come and meet jiles in the office or at the warehouse and sort of pack and do the rest of this or i'd be out going around the streets of london at the time with our little chef bots talking to gyms pilates studios yoga studios etc going can we come and talk to your members and tell them about this new thing that we're trying to create so you know in that respect we didn't just jump and go oh okay let's just put all eggs in one basket and okay we think we've got an idea but we have to be smart about this we're self-funded we haven't gone and raised a lot of money um so we hadn't raised any money so we have to be really careful about where we're putting our our financial resources so actually for us to stay working at the same time made the most sense and then when you get a bit of traction to go okay if we really want to try and take this to the next level now we do need to jump and we need to get on or you know we need to jump on and get on the ride properly and that was the sort of infection point okay okay what's the worst that can happen you know you've got to go and get you've got to go back to your old job or you've got to go get a new one fine you know we'll be able to do it we'll be able to get something i i think listeners well because again lots of listeners may be in in a job and i think what you've said there is so pertinent about almost creating i think you've just mentioned earlier the mvp like the minimal via product like is this a thing before you just throw everything into it um and yeah i think that's that's brilliant i think listeners it's timing is everything i make sure make sure there's enough of demand before you just jump and i but but i suppose what i was trying to dig out with the insecurities question is you know you're graft you're all grafters like all grafters i've listened to so many podcasts of you like working seven days a week 7 p.m on a sunday getting all these calls customer complaints with like um black friday in november like you've got this work ethic would would you say that's come from your parents or all your parents like where's that come from because it's it's astounding in my eyes um oh thank you i should say um uh well one that was out of necessity we didn't have other people so if you're not picking up the phone like to customers after a driver's thrown over a fence or or um uh you know picking up the phone to suppliers to get an order in or order's been delivered somewhere else then you know nobody else is so one at one pie is necessity um for rob and i can't speak for rob and jiles i think it is probably through family as well and sort of you know um their backgrounds in work and always you know being dedicated and and wanting to progress and actually you know nobody's afraid of hard work like say for me personally that i know i get my work ethic from my mom like you know unfortunately my dad passed away when we were 16 so my mom had to work several jobs to keep us at school was four of us so there's a lot of outlay anyway just on mouths to feed let alone schooling etc so always worked several jobs you know whether it be getting in the morning all the way through to the evening and then at weekends as well so i think having seen that and understanding you know well if she can go and do that to provide for you know her family then actually um you know having to work seven days you know having to work on a weekend or whatever or a bit later to try and get our business off the ground that we're passionate about then it sort of makes sense and you know it's not going to be forever or at least you hope it won't be forever yeah and there will be some sort of uh end point to it yeah in the early days you could never see it though you'd hope it was coming and what what mum um what mums what's what jobs was your mum working to kind of help you guys through oh all sorts you know she's part of a um uh a really well respected sort of property development firm um in the early days but then equally you know she'd be you know she's she'd be sort of involved in cleaning all sorts of things to sort of make ends meet you know whatever it be to sort of provide for the family so you know and that also has instilled in in myself and my brothers and sisters you know there's no shame in any sort of work that you take on like if you need to provide money or provide things for your family then you know you'll go and do a job and I've done all sorts of jobs over the years from you know from all sorts working sites and do cleaners like bar work all sorts of things and And, you know, it's where you meet amazing individuals.

47:47You take real pride in some of the work that you do. You get end results, et cetera. And sort of that's instilled that real sort of work ethic and sort of pride and sense of achievement in sort of the outcome of your work, I guess, as well. No, I just thought it was fascinating. I wanted to kind of unpack where it came from. I completely agree. I suppose in terms of, I mean, I actually wrote an article about this. I started when I left uni delivering cheese around London, based in Battersea. And obviously all my mates were on the grad scheme and I was like, but it taught me so much. It was like, I've got B and Batsy at 5am.

48:20It like taught me how to graft, but at the time I couldn't see it, but these things linked up, which now kind of, it puts you in good stead. Cool. So, so where I want to go to now is,

48:36is, is hiring people. It's the hardest thing. It's the hardest thing we've gone through at Money Life. It's the hardest thing on every listener. So this podcast is going through. It's like, how do you hire people that are one that the right skillset to align with the brand values and three have enough kind of cognitive dissonance. I like new skillsets to bring something new to the mindful party. What, what is your kind of hiring process to get those three things, right? Is there a specific set of interviews or questions you ask that on earth? because outside looking in it seems like you've managed to get to 130 people most people listening to this are not nowhere near that so i'd love to explore that yeah they're like two very separate journeys aren't they really one you've got like sort of you know sub 40 i'd say sort of team and then you've got sort of the inflection point of like 40 upwards and then you've got like a hundred over a hundred and um i would say we i would also say we didn't have a anyone involved in people or hr until we were about 70 odd um so we were probably behind the curve so we've learned a few lessons but i guess in the early days interviews were exceptionally informal basically with myself jiles and rob um and you know when you're much smaller sort of 10 individuals yes you might if it's a really specific role like we are sit higher with a videographer right because we thought back then content would be king queen whatever you want to call it and um you know it'd be where we could really shine and tell amazing stories about our suppliers our product etc and build that um relationship and connection with the with the customer so that is a specific skill set right but then obviously we also had to find an individual who is willing to take a bit of a chance, a bit of a risk.

50:31They might not earn as much money, probably going to be younger than somebody with lots of experience. But actually, are they really hungry to improve their own skill set? And are they hungry to sort of join a bigger mission and be a part of something a lot bigger? So we lucked out and got a great individual in the early days who actually also improved his own skill set because we needed to shoot food photography. We couldn't afford a photographer. So we said, well, how hard can it be? point and shoot you do the videos already and um it obviously is is very different don't get me wrong um and he managed to improve his skill set though so actually when he left mindful share and went and joined um another fantastic company but he actually went on to uh riverford he actually joined um as part of the photography team so actually he's not even he wasn't he wasn't even doing videography anymore he actually moved on photography so he managed to build his skill set up and then in terms of like wider field in the team and then you're just looking well we were we were looking for really um hungry smart individuals uh one being you know um a girl called olivia who's actually our sort of um or she'd been like our third hire who actually had won a competition on instagram to win a mindful chef box i remember delivering it to her but probably only had 60 customers um and then lo and behold she sort of reached out for an internship with us um and you know she's exceptionally bright she's been with us ever since and um actually her she didn't have a specific set of skills per se she didn't have much experience but she had a broad range of you know basic marketing skills or you know she was a good communicator so she could help us with customer care she was smart so she could help on operations if we had anything there so really it was a broad set just finding really smart individuals to bring into the business you could potentially help um and then as you get bigger you know now we have a great sort of hiring process actually you know we've got a fantastic people team you know you've got a couple of recruiters and then internally now and then we have sort of our head of people and then a people manager under her and um you know that now we get to go and find some really great individuals and sometimes they might need a bit of work in terms of um okay they might not be the finished product that we think actually if they come to mindful chef they'll be able to learn really quickly because guess what we give you a lot of autonomy and ask you to do a lot uh a lot more than you might get to other companies um and then the process is a lot smoother now you know they'll chat with chat with that team first and then they'll come and chat to sort of the managers and then the one difference i guess or to your point of how do you get it right or try to is at the end of that they'll also meet with one of the founders and tim and actually will also look at like do they fit culturally do we think they'll really fit in with mindful chef um or and are they going to be able to either adapt their approach or do they have that approach already to fit sort of a a far scale up sort of growth mindset please no there's i mean that was amazing i think there's just so much in that for listeners i think again i suppose most people listen to this it's i suppose what you said there it's like you're almost looking for this growth mindset it's like are you willing to learn constantly grow get better like your videographer suppose you're looking for self-starter so um olivia she reached out to you so i think for people trying to hire at the super nascent stages it's like self-starter um and this growth i think growth mindset is really really powerful in what's olivia doing now then is she because obviously now there's 130 of you guys like what's employee number three doing i'd love to know yeah so well she really wanted to build up her sort of um skill set in marketing so she's responsible now for all of our sort of social media channels our content strategy across um all of those channels as well and actually individuals who work with her and underneath her so um so she's managed to progress and that's equally hard when you're a smaller company as well you don't have lots of levels or you know if you're trying to keep head count down you're not always bringing in people underneath others So it's finding that balance to where people can go and what they can do.

54:42But yeah, she's been a fantastic sort of team member throughout. And actually also very passionate about the service, passionate about sort of a wider approach and mission of the business. And equally, everyone in the community knows who she is as well, because she shares that passion with all of them. So they'll all know who Olivia is by sort of name as well. Yeah, because I think the original kind of the nucleus of the team were the ones that build, build the culture in. So you, you Giles and Rob aren't there. They're kind of like the people who keep it going. And on that kind of, we talked about the growth stages in terms of employee headcount, I suppose.

55:24Basically every guest I've had on this podcast has always said, and it may be different for you guys because your recipe boxes, they've always said zero to 1 million is the hardest bit. That's like the graph, graph, graph. as as paul graham says like the trough of sorrow and you're just like in the weeds and it's it's kind of hell on earth um i heard giles reference that for you guys the kind of the turning point was this seven million mark when you guys hit there maybe wrong but um i would love to know when you guys hit that seven million mark or around that inflection point i think small brands can put in systems that can be amazing and they can really speed you up but equally too much kind of dogmatic inane systems can kind of slow you down it's just process for the sake of process what are the kind of the one or two systems you guys have put in place and that could be within custom service team etc that have really kind of had a cataclysmic shift in mindful chef i'd love to kind of look into yeah um it's quite interesting isn't it i mean we're still as as founders trying to get out of the weeds and move to like becoming better leaders and coaches more to really empower those individuals underneath us people talk about it as like the dance floor and you know being on the dance floor and then being up in sort of the eaves watching down and it's like as a leader you need to know when to be on the dance floor when actually to take a step back and sort of just oversee and we're still very much trying to get better at that and and do a better job to really empower the team um i don't know at when we were at 10 million revenues we still only had 10 people in our head office like so we were very small so we in terms of systems we had an amazing sort of in-house back-end um technology platform that we built ourselves that allowed us to all the chefs to sort of input ingredients it would come out of costings be able to order do forecasts all sorts on there so that really took a lot of the heavy lifting away customer care always had a fantastic team led by sort of Siobhan from those sort of days as well who I think we've managed to put in some really good systems and automate a lot of things to our back end as well that allow us to keep that team relatively small and also provide a really excellent service um but i think we haven't put lots of like yeah lots of online systems in you know we didn't have hr platform for a lot of years we had a very basic one which we implemented and all of that and actually i think it's people like people make the business better and if you can have really fantastic individuals who can own their areas and you're always going to get involved as a founder or entrepreneur anyway but they can own their areas and run with it and have that sort of growth mindset to problem solve etc the likes of Siobhan the likes of Olivia likes of like Gaz who used to sort of own the sort of operational warehouse side for us then they can take your business to a certain point before you start to put in more and more processes as you get bigger as I said we're always playing catch up you know we got to 40 and then the pandemic hit and we were 90 overnight and we didn't have any HR team you know or a proper onboarding system or interview process so um you know then you start to put in and we're kind of still playing catch up a little bit with all of those things but luckily we have some really good individuals beneath us who um who work fantastically well within their own teams in their own right no I think that's that's what you said there is so reassure reassuring for I So as myself and for listeners, I think there's this kind of rhetoric that you need to put in X system and X process at X stage of the business to, to move forward.

59:21But what you said there about actually, if you just get the right people who you trust, you don't necessarily need the systems. I think great systems will help if the people aren't great or aren't amazing. But if you've got amazing people, the systems aren't necessary. is kind of what i'd equally when you're like smaller like isn't it easier to just pick up the phone or just walk over to somebody who's five yards away rather than slacking them a message or like opening up another i don't know asana project to type up something when you could actually go get the answer from them straight away so i think it's there's definitely times and places and when the teams get bigger you need to have more processes so that people have visibility and accountability across the board but when you're small like actually processes can hinder progress like quite a lot and they just it's it's a lot of work for the sake of work but actually we think you know as i say it's that that value of being personal like you should be able to just go and talk to your colleague your teammate and actually you should be able to get an answer really quickly you should be able to or you should be able to problem solve really quickly and then actually come up with a solution that's far easier than you know popping on asana and ducking out ducking back out closing it i know it's like meeting this this meeting for the sake of meetings i can't stand it um no i i love that and um one of the values you've you've mentioned is unafraid and i really really that really struck a chord with me and um i suppose what i want to talk about now is being unafraid of your competition because i i've got a big belief one of my staunch beliefs is like you don't need to focus on your competition really you need to be cognizant of them, but just focusing them is just going to cause like incessant anxiety where you're not making decisions based on your personal, um, value system.

1:01:12Um, uh, Giles mentioned that, um, obviously with some of the other recipe boxes, that's actually a really good thing for you because if people want to find a healthy box, they'll find mindful chef. How do you guys kind of stay unafraid of the competition? Because obviously there's more and more recipe boxes coming out. there's more i'm assuming gusto and hello fresh have got bigger bolstered budgets how do you do that i suppose as a leader and and kind of manifest that in the team as well yeah you would assume right on the budget point so far far far far bigger like stratospherically bigger than mindful chef um and the others i think i think you're right to be um sort of aware of what they're doing and what new things they might be doing because if you do gain traction and customers and awareness then obviously the bigger players are always going to try and replicate it in one form or another you know i think hello fresh and gusto have both tried to bring out sort of healthy aspects of their their sort of boxes and more and more companies are becoming a b corp like mindful chef both hello fresh and gusto have recently certified you know we've been a b corp since 2018 so they sort of see these things and replicate them and obviously that does sort of you know will take some awareness away from your own service um but i think and equally new rest reports as well coming onto the market see what mindful chef have done potentially and go and replicate that was something when we started we didn't just want to be another copycat of gustan hello fresh we were very focused on actually nobody's focusing on um also nobody's delivering sort of healthy healthier options of food so actually that's really double down on this and actually we can also be a sort of business for good at the same time and use our community on a wider societal environmental sort of aspect and you see more and more brands and companies trying to do that now but i guess it sort of you know encourages us on you see others trying to replica you go okay well we must be doing something right then um and actually how do we build upon this now but like you say i think you've got to just focus on your own company what you're doing be aware of others but actually focus on your niche your usp what you're trying to do and double down on your efforts i love that because i think it's so easy especially on well actually you guys are now in supermarket shelves congratulations with with the waitrose partnership is epic but i think i suppose from from a challenger brand getting onto a supermarket shelf you just constantly look at the category and i always believe like don't look at your category because you're just going to start looking like your competition just going to turn into your competition i really don't um yeah i kind of don't agree with that how has the the waitrose because that's such an epic like partnership how's that all come around i suppose yeah so we've um we've spoken to waitrose for uh sort of a number of years actually last sort of four or five years um it's a really um obviously premium brand there's a lot of synergies between the values we share as companies um and sort of our our belief systems and also actually sort of our belief systems around suppliers etc etc and our customers so for us to be able to work with waitrose um you know could only be beneficial for mindful chef really um equally there are benefits for waitrose in terms of d2c online ordering bringing more people to websites you know that's a big part of supermarkets where they're still trying to understand how all of that works you know for every pound they take out of the the bricks and mortar and put into online they're sort of losing it from from their shelves so they're still understanding that balance um but you know awareness you know about mindful chef because manly life obviously works for mindful chef but you know you're probably you you're in that sort of sphere within sort of being london-based and everything else and health and wellness but there's lots of people still across the uk who've never heard of mindful chef they've they lots of people still haven't heard of wrestling boxes you know that's the great thing that the big players do is they drive awareness of the category and then people find out more as they go along but it's still very small so actually partnering up with waitrose um not only is it good for the business like align alignment on values and synergies with customer bases but equally it actually allows us to really drive awareness of mindful share as a brand and then sort of our our big sort of um you know our baby will always be the d2c that will be in the bulk of our business but actually we think our big mission has always been to make healthy eating easy so this just takes it one step further you know there's lots of people who haven't heard of us or a bit scared of of the sort of ordering online or having to order a subscription so actually they can give us a go in the supermarkets so you can get a sort of frozen meal or whatever and then get to taste the recipes themselves and then actually they might go you know i'll give the box a go so it's uh yeah we're really happy to be in sort of waitrose as a first step and we always said you know mindful chef the logo actually used to be mindful the line and then chef and we're always sort of aware that we could potentially do a lot more it could be mindful shop mindful restaurant mindful deli blah blah blah and it It was always the idea to sort of build our brand into a lot more than just recipe kits as well.

1:06:36Really? I did not. It's now makes sense. The stroke of genius, because I suppose it's almost like it's commercial marketing. So obviously you're literally making money from the sales of the recipe boxes. Sorry, of the frozen meals in Waitrose. But then it's also driving awareness back into. Yeah, that's that's genius. I think I don't know what I can impart on listeners, but I think it's just thinking how you can almost like maximize each sale. I suppose. Um, and conscious of your time. Um, I just want to kind of, there's a few things I want to kind of explore, um, before we wrap this up. So you guys sold to Nestle in, was it, um, or sold part of the business Nestle in November, 2020.

1:07:22What did that feel like for you guys? yeah so it was a majority investment so interestingly myself jiles rob we and other leadership team haven't actually sold any shares so it's a it's a bigger belief for many but actually um we actually haven't so i haven't benefited personally from the deal at all but the the great thing from the um partnership and relationship is sort of twofold one is um you know we've done two big rounds of crowdfunding and we had probably close to or over a thousand investors of whom many were family and friends um in the early days and it's very rare that any startup or company can return those um sort of monies even more so at a good return um you know for a lot of companies you know it's like one percent will actually make it or whatever and actually a mindful chef journey especially being fresh food as we said it's it's a really hard business lots of people can just start a a recipe box up but actually getting it to scale um is really really difficult and especially with the margin sort of based around fresh food and there's lots of ups and downs and we've been we've been there in times where we've been in the pub we haven't been able to pay ourselves and we've just paid the sort of four individuals working for us so we we know what it can be like and sort of how hard it can be to raise money so actually to be able to give all of these ambassadors family and friends who sort of invested in mindful chef and really believed in us in the early days when there wasn't much to be able to give them a return was actually really important to us so actually that was one amazing aspect of of the deal was we could do that and not many companies can say that and then the other aspect was talking about those ups and downs um was being able to guarantee the future of mindful chef you You know, being able to work with one of the biggest sort of food brands in the world actually secured the sort of stability of the business, I guess.

1:09:20You know, as I said, we've got 130 people now, you know, as founders, having been in situations where you go, don't know, you know, what could happen next week. If we don't crowdfund tomorrow, then these people will be out of a job and you don't ever want to really be in that situation again. So that allowed that. And then also the big mission, as I said, is to make healthy eating easy. and you know i did that as a as a personal trainer nutritional coach on a small level with mindful chef i managed to do that a lot on a lot bigger level and now with the nestay partnership we're going to do that on an even larger scale than we've ever been able to do before so from us it's a really positive impact um that we'll be able to do and drive awareness of that mission of our products and how we can actually have that positive impact on people's lives i love that it almost links back to what we were saying at the beginning of like passion plus solving a pain point so you've done that on a micro scale literally being a nutritionist on a one-to-one basis then in my opinion you've like almost done that with mindful chef like it's humongous but then to even take that passion and pain point of making everyday eating eat like accessible i love that and i think for most people listening to this if you can find those your passion plus the pain point that you want to solve and just dream big like you're a stellar example of what can actually you know happen if you put your head down yeah i would say dan though i would like highlight back to we never thought that companies like waitrose like nestle would be interested in working with mindful chef either and in the very early days the reason we had to do two rounds of crowdfunding was because no institutional investors wanted to get involved couldn't see how we were different from the big players didn't think we'd ever be able to survive thought we would quickly run out and dissipate within the first year or two.

1:11:08So the play wasn't, oh, let's go and build this business and sell a chunk of it here or here. The play was always, okay, do we have a good idea? Can we grow? Can we get more customers? That's it. It was always just getting to the next step. And then these things came at the end. We didn't set out with a goal of, okay, we're going to go and sell this company or sell part of it to X, Y, or Z. That was never from the beginning. It's just, that's the journey that Mindful Chef has sort of gone on and where we're at at this stage of our sort of life cycle. No, sure. I suppose what I was trying to say is that it always started with making healthy day eating, you know, accessible and easy.

1:11:45And then over time, as you've scaled, these things have kind of come into your, yeah, into your stratosphere, which has allowed that to scale up. But it's always, I suppose, starting with your mission and keeping it true to your, I suppose, heart in many respects. Um, and where I want to kind of wrap this conversation up is again, kind of going back to this, this mindfulness and yeah, basically mindfulness. Cause I think as we were discussing everything, especially everyone listens to this. It's so go, go, go. I need to get this listing or do this or sort this problem out. It can be really hard to have these moments of mindfulness.

1:12:21And, um, on your Instagram, I, I, I saw this really kind of set the curiosity fireworks off is you said you know happiness is a choice was in your instagram and that was really pertinent to me so how speak to that please like how is happiness a choice like how is that a choice and why is it a choice um yeah i mean i don't always get it right don't get me wrong yeah sure none of us do we're humans yeah i guess it's um you always have a choice you can make i'm a big believer in unless something is absolutely fundamental for you to respond in this instance it can probably wait and there will be instances where that happens you know big problem with deliveries customers whatever it might be um that you have to deal with but a lot of the time things can wait so actually if you i don't know want to go and take a walk you want to go and train at this time or you want to spend time with your family and you want to take a morning maybe or or finish work a bit earlier or you know live life in the moment maybe you want to go take a long weekend be like i just shouldn't but these are all choices that we can make you know and and yes there is always going to be another thing you can tick off for work but actually what is really important to you your values your personal circumstances um you know the other morning i wanted to walk my daughter to work you know actually i had something quite important i really had to do and actually it would have been far better for me to have stayed and done that but actually at that time the sun was out daughter really wanted me to walk her up to school i was like yeah no i'm just gonna do this i'll figure out a way to make that that piece of work i'll get it done it will be fine i'll figure out a way to do it but it's just small choices like that you know i don't think it has to be anything grand or really big it's just actually what are you doing day to day that makes you happy because ultimately and especially in startups where it's always go go go and there's always problems and you've got to you've got to find those moments to find sort of self-fulfillment as well and be happy with what you're doing Otherwise, you will burn out and, you know, it's not, it's not sustainable to within the long run.

1:14:45No, I completely agree. And I think lots of guests who have come on this podcast and people listening, they do eventually hit a burnout. And I think the burnout comes is by not thinking of this happiness. It's a micro choice, but these little micro choices on a daily basis compound and they actually stop burnout. burnout. Whereas I think what burnout really comes from this kind of, it manifests with this need to do more, need to do more anxious when I'm not doing enough. And it just this virtuous, vicious cycle, sorry, where it just goes round and round and round and then bingo, you're like, you have to take a huge time off.

1:15:18So I love what you said there about it's okay. It can wait. Well, like just take the walk, like the sun's out today. Like, yeah, I probably should take heedance of your advice miles um and i kind of on this kind of happiness point um you've done a lot of work with um fern cotton who's i mean she's got i think it's called the happy place podcast yeah she's done a lot of work on on this what's kind of what's she taught you anything that you've either implemented with yourself your family or with the mindful chef team about cultivating this happy place or happiness is a choice? I would say most importantly, or what I've taken away from Fern, two things probably.

1:16:06One is there is no one-stop shop that fits all. And what I really like about Hadpaste's podcast, what Fern does, is she speaks to so many individuals across a whole breadth and range of different things, whether it be some of the best composers in the world to professor green to somebody who talks about um you know breathing mindfulness painting whatever it is you know cold water therapy all these different things all the way through to some people have written some amazing books so and really it's unlocking sort of different habits or or understanding what some of these individuals do and then being able to potentially apply them to your own life or actually change them to fit you you know what somebody else doesn't necessarily work for you but you might be able to take something from it and i think that's really nice because when we think about mindfulness or a lot of people they switch off because i don't have time to meditate or i don't have time to do that you know and it's very one track like sort of centered one channel but actually it can be so much more than that and it doesn't just have to be this really extreme thing like i want to go jump in the sea every morning it could be if that's what you're into and you're close to the sea great but for others it might just be something it might be taking five minutes to while you're making your coffee to actually just take a step back put your phone down think like about yourself maybe slow down your breathing something like that so i think fern's really um sort of allowed me to to see that and then also considering how busy she is actually to focus on taking the time to try and implement that into her day-to-day life as well because you know she's got um several children and then all these different time commitments as well but equally on top of that she tries to find time to as it comes back to that point about finding that sort of self-fulfillment um within to to ensure you know you don't get burnout or you can actually live a positive more positive happier sort of life as well no i love that and i think everyone listening to this probably should turn this podcast off and just like you go on a go on a walk um just kind of final question then mate just out of curiosity what what are some of the the systems or habits you put in place in your week because obviously it's you've built this huge huge business and it's it seems to be like go go go is one part of our conversation um and the other half is like how do we balance that with some mindful strategies i suppose what what are some of the ones you put in place other than literally getting a mindful chef box and turning everything off cooking yeah exactly um cooking is definitely one but i think because you have to do it or like you know you don't have to but like if it's there i will do it and um for me uh it's exercise and that doesn't have to be you know full gym blown session it could just be getting out for a walk like we've said like being able to get out in nature and not necessarily if you can find And the park, obviously great, because it's a bit nicer than walking along the roads, but roads are fine, you know, but just getting outside.

1:19:12My wife will tell you if I don't get to exercise for a few days, she can tell you straight away that there's something wrong because I've become a bit of a pain. But it's just being outdoors, really, for me. That's the main thing I've sort of grown up with and sort of what I enjoy most doing. And then I can find sort of a moment of solitude also playing with my children. I've got two little ones, a four and a half year old and a one and a half year old. And obviously they can be difficult and tiring, but equally you can find real moments of sort of mindfulness when you're just spending time with them and really focusing and being in the present, I think.

1:19:49Amazing. Well, Miles, thank you so, so much. I suppose I've loved this conversation. There's just so many kind of parts to it. And I think a lot of it is this values. It's finding your values as a business and your values as yourself. And in terms of business, it's about building something brilliant that's true to you, you know, whether that's being unafraid, being personal. And then I suppose on an individualistic basis, it's like having your own values to make sure you are mindful and you don't burn out. And I think there's just so much in that for listeners. So thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

1:20:24Thanks for having me, Dan. It's great to catch up. Awesome. Thank you so, so much for listening to the podcast. I really, really do appreciate it. if you liked that episode only if you liked it please do give it five stars subscribe tell all your friends families foes next door but one cat dog whatever please tell everyone about this podcast it means the world to me and I really want to understand what your pain points are as the new wave of of challenger food and drink brands please do hit me up on LinkedIn search Dan Pope and hopefully we can together create a more meaningful and powerful podcast for the next wave of challenger food and drink brands Thank you so much.