How Rude Health Disrupted The Health Food Category and Built a +£20 million Household Brand - Camilla Barnard, Rude Health, co-founder.

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3:22Thank you so much. Hello there people and listeners of the Hungry podcast. Today I'm fizzing with excitement to welcome Challenger Brand royalty onto this podcast. Camilla Barnard is co-founder of Rude Health. I think Rude Health were doing Challenger Brands way before the word actually existed. They won listings at Sainsbury's Waitrose, Whole Food Market, Paner Organic, have a huge export business um i think if i'm right in saying when you've got over 60 skews i absolutely love your approach to mpd and back in 2015 they really kind of catapulted the the trying dairy oat milk you know revolution in many respects um rid of a brand we've looked up to massively at money life um i kind of love your fun and playful engaging personality as a brand um so yeah i'm super super grateful for you coming on today camilla thanks so much that's quite an intro thanks dan that's all right i was rehearsing it in the mirror beforehand oh god i don't know if i can live up to all that no no no no it's very i don't like genuinely obviously so so louise who i've mentioned numerous times on this podcast she was obviously sales director at rude elf she then came joined us at manny life and she's been such a great mentor to me and it's kind of really i think we've taken a lot from rude health as a brand and implanted it manny life and i think it's that's why i'm really excited to have this conversation um that's lovely to hear because i'm a big manny fan we've always we've actually got three tubs in the house at the moment um that's amazing have you tried the new rich cocoa yet is that oh yes oh happy days thoughts amazing i actually i'm a plain i mean it's brilliant i'm a and the flavors as usual spot on um and the texture is fantastic i'm still plain crunchy every time keep it keep it simple yeah yeah um amazing so i was doing a lot of research for the for this interview and where i want to actually start is quite well many continents away from london granola dairy old milks and rude health.

5:34It's actually the kind of wildly irrelevant country Japan. In doing research, I found out that you did Japanese at university. You worked in fashion, I think recruitment and finance, and you actually lived in Japan. I would love to use Japan as a kind of a lens to explore your childhood. So where did you kind of grow up and where did this fascination with japan say versus other cultures um begin to kind of bubble in your mind it's quite an interesting way to start yeah yeah no that is that is it is different um i grew up in beckonsfield in buckinghamshire uh and i think it was a combination of things dad traveled for work and would always bring us back these little souvenirs and also stories um and i was fascinated it.

6:27It was different. I've always liked different, new, interesting. And then when I was quite young, probably six or seven, a Japanese family moved into town. And that was quite a thing because at the time it was about as homogenous as you can get. So having a Japanese family there was completely different. There was no one Japanese. And they'd come straight from Tokyo, didn't speak much English and their sons were about the same age as my brothers. And they were just the loveliest people. And it sort of sparked an interest. The mother was incredibly kind and generous, also hilariously funny. It took her absolutely years to learn to drive and it was kind of an ongoing joke.

7:10She kept saying, I'm a kamikaze driver, completely taking the mickey out of herself. But she also, one time she invited, I think, me and a friend around and she dressed us up in kimonos and gave us Japanese tea. And it was just, I mean, this was the 1970s. So now I feel like everybody knows through so much more media and so much more travel, actually, everybody knows a lot more about what goes on in other countries. But honestly, at the time, abroad was really quite abroad, especially if you were six or seven. So even France was quite exotic. And Japan was just another planet. And it absolutely just sparked an interest.

7:54And I think that interest just sort of brewed, stayed, didn't go. And then in sixth form, while I was doing precisely zero work at school, I was doing evening classes in Japanese and then in my I took a year between school and university which I somehow managed to get into and spent that in Japan as an au pair and teaching and stuff which was incredible then I did as you said I did the Japanese at university so it just sort of stuck as a an interest I like the language I like the culture was fascinating and there are parallels with British culture and it's also an island nation. I'd say in every way, it's probably more extreme British culture.

8:39If we're sort of slightly restrained and stiff up a lippy, traditionally, Japan has been historically more insular, more cut off. And I think that makes it even more, I mean, even more, what's the word? There is a word for everything in Japan. Specific word for a specific occasion. If you arrive home, there's a word you say as you arrive home, which is tadaima. If you're at home and somebody comes home, there's a word that you say to that person, okari. And if you leave the house, there's a word for that. If you're the person who's in the house being left, there's a word for that. If you go into someone else's house, there's a word for that.

9:22I mean, it's so specific and there is a right thing to say and a right thing to do in every single situation. And as a foreigner, you will never know them all. I was like, no, it's going to be wrong. You are permanently going to be making mistakes. And the longer you stay there, it's not that you get better at it. It's just you gradually begin to realize how many more mistakes there are you could make and how bad you are at being Japanese. Absolutely fascinating. No, I love that. There's so much to explore on that because I actually went to Japan for the world cup in um 2019 i was just i was just blown away i was i just said it's a different planet i was like this is mental like i love the food's fantastic just just the food just like literally pulled me pulled my soul i was like okay i'm in love with this place yes whereabouts in um in in japan were you living well the first time i went as an au pair i was in yokosuka which is if You go from Tokyo down to Yokohama and over to Yokosuka.

10:20So it's an easy train ride into Tokyo. And then when I went there as a student and then went back after, it was in Hukuoka, which is on Kyushu, which is the southern island. So, yeah, and obviously did a lot of traveling, including hitchhiking, which is not a thing in Japan. Really? No, it's not. But it works quite well. They don't. Actually, you know, if you know anything about Japanese culture, it's like of course it's not a thing but um as students you're like but that's all we can afford to do so we're gonna do it yeah yeah amazing and and back to the to the words um piece when you're saying they've got words it's quite specific questions um but what is kind of a word what's your sort of favorite word in japanese that isn't because i i find learning from cultures so fascinating is there like a specific word that's like yeah means something to you in japanese oh there's a couple actually um there's one which i think a lot of people sort of we haven't got one for it um natsukashi which is a sort of oh that takes me back or oh wow that's a reminder or it's it there isn't anything for it but you know you might have a flavor that you haven't had for years you go oh my god you know natsukashi and everyone exactly what you mean but there isn't there isn't anything for it here and i do love also i mean of course there's words for it you At the beginning of a meal, you say itadakimasu.

11:45And at the end of the meal, you say kochisousama deshita every time. And it's just a lovely framing of the meal. It's like a recognition that you've been served something, you're about to eat it, and then thank you very much. Which we just, I mean, England, I think English, or England, the UK, is one of the only places that doesn't have, at the very least, a starting a meal phrase. It's very odd. I've never been anywhere else where there isn't something you say at the beginning of a meal. And I suppose those little things make you more present in many respects. I would have butchered the Japanese, so apologies up front.

12:20But the word about sort of reminiscing, reminiscing is such a delicious thing to do. It's like it really does make you feel super present and content. And I think we lack that so much in our culture because it's just constant like Instagram. But the next thing, next thing, there's no pause. And what I learned when I went to Japan, I was like, there's these little moments in the day that add up and compound. you have like okay so it's saying it's before the meal it just it does i don't know how to yeah there's probably a japanese word for it but like there's almost a calming effect yeah um and then i suppose what because when i was in japan and this is something not like i haven't gone and specifically done this at manly life but what i noticed from japan it was always the little things so it was everything it was the attention on the little things and i suppose at manly life we tried to implement that massively so it's like you know the way you write to a buyer the handwritten note like yeah um the like even our t-shirts are making sure they're like the best quality and it's just so it's like these little little things that compound what would you say are some of the key like things you've implemented from japan potentially at rude house or or life actually yeah it's a good question i mean definitely definitely i mean we do have at least a phrase for over here devil is in the detail and I 100 % believe that we've especially as a small business totally like you everything was you know I remember lying in bed and thinking have I chosen the right pantom you know should I have gone for 345 or 346 you know is that just slightly too bright that green you know and lit hours on something that probably most people will never notice um I think that was me but I think actually my interest in that sort of thing may have been why I enjoyed Japan was rather than, you know, that just compounded it, that everything is detailed, everything is specific.

14:16There is a reason for everything. Actually, I think I'm, I am always, will always, have always a why person. So I'm more or less incapable of following an instruction until I understand the reason for it. I'm not, it doesn't, I'm not actually, I don't really want to be rebellious. But if I am given instructions that I consider not very helpful or a reason for them isn't very good, it's like I'm constitutionally incapable of doing them because it doesn't make any sense. Why would I waste my energy doing something which doesn't make any sense? So everything is sort of thought through. There's got to be a reason for everything.

14:55I've got to understand why everything has got to make sense. So there's not, I mean, which makes for very efficient, I think, in some ways, action. Because I'm not just going to splatter, can't kind of go out there. I can't remember why I started on this now. But it was like, I suppose it was when we came to ingredients and stuff, we'll be like, why do you have to use that sugar? We don't want that sugar. Why do you have to do that? You know, we want something else. Why does it have to be like this? Why do we have to advertise? You know, why do you, everything was a question. It was like, well, you know, yes, that may be what's given, that may be what's always done, but why?

15:33Is there a good reason for it or is it just habit? Is that just because what everyone else is doing? Is it possible that there is actually not a very good reason for it or it doesn't apply to, you know, a small business or something like that? Actually, and it's odd. So that was my, that was me. I think I was a why person and that sort of got taken into the business, which actually doesn't go down very well in Japan at all. And I think maybe it was Japan that helped me realize that that was kind of who I was because you don't ask why in Japan. You very much do not ask why ever. You just do what you're told.

16:01And that made me realise I would have been a disastrous Japanese person. I would have had an awful school career in Japan. Probably, I don't know, I might end up dropping out or something. I just don't know if I could follow those rules. I mean, it's nothing but rules. You either got to suck it up and get used to just living within the rules and find your kind of space around them or I think you combust and I don't know, you just drop out of society. I mean, there is quite an interesting counterculture out there and it's quite extreme because it's like the rural society is quite extreme and then the counterculture is quite extreme, I think.

16:34So, it's fascinating. I don't know whether what I've taken into business, perhaps more of an awareness of selves. There's nothing like living abroad to understand who you are because it shows you up in a way you don't see it when you're amongst your own. It's like taking a fish out of water you can suddenly see the water this rum analogy but you know what i mean yeah no no no for sure and that's fascinating because i think it's um it's so interesting with their especially from a food angle like it that food is just seems so creative and again for outside looking in all the sushi the wagyu um the rum and all of it but it there is beneath this kind of very militant um process and rule book to things it with but but i think with for people listening to this there's there's a massive balance between always having that curiosity and always asking why it's something we've tried to do it money life why do we have to do it that way why can we do it this way versus um having some sort of you know not rule book but template to follow and i think you can't be in two camps if you're just constantly why you're just never going to get anything like done i mean you could see people like why that color you'll never get it done so it's trying to find that balance between having sort of a template of what's been there balanced with always asking why and i think the best brands or anyone listening to this they can balance those two sort of things simultaneously there's a real sweet spot of creativity and i i want to there's an amazing example of that which we'll discuss later is the rude health cafe because i think that's just unreal like i think it's it's absolutely amazing um but i i was listening to um to a podcast and you you said the two of the things you guys had yourself and nick was blind faith and absolute drive um i'd love to sort of go back to you know you said your your dad was would travel a lot like how did your parents shape um give you this kind of tenacity and drive was any specific moments they like how do they body that within you do Do you know what?

18:39That was, I think, Nick, I would have described Nick, my husband and co-founder, as having the blind faith and drive. That's what he, and that was crucial during the recession. We wouldn't have got through it. Absolutely wouldn't have got through it. That is not so much what I bring. I think what, I mean, which is why we were quite good teamwork. work um i brought a very different energy to the business um but i think what i learned from growing up was i really don't want to spend my life in a job that i don't enjoy that's really where i don't want to go it's not a good place to be um and yeah that i think that just stuck deep deep down and then there was something in me that always wanted to do my own thing I mean really quite early on for no particular reason I remember it some reason they asked us at school what do you want to do when you grab in this must be when I was 12 or 13 or something I can't remember why it came up um and I said I wanted my own business okay and I had no idea why I wanted my I didn't know what it meant didn't really know anyone with their own business but it was just there that was a that was a thing I think it was being able to do my own thing actually I'm probably because uh as a why person I'm wanting to make my own rules that's the easiest way to do that is not have a boss yeah no I love that um amazing and so then well where I want to go now is is to the genesis of root out um so what were you yourself and Nick doing kind of the six months preceding Rude Health?

20:28How did the idea begin to bubble? Well, I was looking after a one-year-old. I'm pregnant with the second child in the six months leading up to Rude Health. So I had my hands full. And it was actually the only time in my life when I wasn't working in more or less that six months in the build-up. And Nick was doing a variety of things at that point. I think he was still publishing. He was basically B &Q's publisher at that stage. And he was also still flying. And I can't think what else. But yeah, it was, yep, we were in a baby phase. Totally. Baby phase. And with the name Rude Health, to me, it's just, I love it.

21:17And actually, you know, it's almost like the juxtaposition of Rude and Health. It's this funness. and I interviewed funnily enough you talked about devil in the detail I interviewed Luke from Lucky Saint yeah and he one of their values is devil in the detail as well but I was asking him like the name Lucky Saint again is the juxtaposition um and he said he went around the houses trying to pick the name and I think the name is so important for for for brands and to be honest we not overlooked it but for a long time people like mate what does money life mean but we had someone from Starbucks at Specialty thinking it was like Viagra, Manny Line.

21:58She'll ask us, oh my god, this is a very awkward conversation when extremely sweaty rent. I think getting the name right is really important. Maybe you've never been asked this before, but were there any other names that got bandied around Jaws and Nick's kitchen table that weren't rude health? I now can't remember what any of them were. We had a specific sort of brainstorm session and the idea was we'd get everything down on paper and then vote. But as soon as someone said root health, and nobody can remember who it was, as soon as somebody said root health, we went, oh, my God, that's perfect.

22:28It does everything we want. Because as you say, it's actually, I mean, as you may know, may or may not know, it's an old English expression to be in root health, which is like to be in root health, it's got that sense of energy and, you know, like really, really well, super well, super healthy. And I think it's rude from the old English ruddy, red. So it's like that red cheek kind of healthy, you know, like outside you know glow um so it's exactly so that the actual phrase being in rude health was exactly how we want people to feel and you know that food should be a part of how you feel but even if you don't know the phrase luckily it doesn't matter because most of that don't um as you said the contrast with rude and health particularly at the time because back in 2006 when we started Rude Health with Ultimate Muesli, health was a very serious world.

23:25So having Rude Health was immediately not what you were expecting, which was lovely because it just catches the eye, you know, bang home the health, but you get something else that's not in the same world semantically. Boemi, our beloved sponsor, are helping build the fastest growing challenger food and drink brands look if you're a small brand just starting out and need your first indie stockist your first hundred stockist to wholesale boemi are the platform to categorically speed that up but if you're a big brand wanting to get bigger boemi are also insane they make field sales marble smooth silky slick they're just epic ollies ollies been on this podcast twice actually they saw a 29 uplift in sales when using boemi to check major malt listings availability insane 29 uplift by downloading an app insane lucky saying my boy aaron duff is coming to podcast in a couple of weeks weeks he uses it to manage the team of 30 people and they've lucky to have unlocked 500 draft listings by using boemy look you've got to get involved with this stuff it's absolutely insane and it will categorically change your life it's just the sickest platform i use it all the time at ireland i remember that it was quite a not a kind of crusty, senile category in some respects.

24:40And then I think you guys came marching in a bit like, you know, Joseph and the Technicolor Dreamcoat, whatever. It was just this eye-gordily, like, gorgeous products on the shelf. But just, like, yeah, it was palpable the way it kind of made you feel as you go around the supermarket. I think that's what everyone listening to this is trying to do is make someone feel something. And I listened to a podcast, and you said a brand is a personality. And I thought, bingo, that is genius. Like, could you talk about that a bit more? Because I think it's interesting. That whole bit you've just said actually was really interesting because that whole thing about feel is more what I bring to the business.

25:17Right. The whole brand bit is my bit. And yeah, that was the whole point. And the fact, actually, it was very funny. We were talking about something. My kid said something the other day, and it just made me think, that is killer marketing. And they were talking about busy drinks. And my son said, yeah, no, Pepsi. Pepsi is so much nicer. So Pepsi is really, really nice. But I'll always buy Coke. And I was just like, wow, how brilliant is that? That Coke has managed to maintain that desire and that brand love with the 100 % knowledge that you actually prefer the taste of the competitor. I mean, that is the biggest win ever.

26:05And it's insane. It makes no sense at all. But it shows, you know, if you can create. So that is nothing to do with creating the best products at all. You know, you can sit there and say, I prefer Pepsi and I choose Coke. And to me, that shows you can create the best product in the world. And that's not it. That's not enough. You know, you probably do need to create the best products in the world in order to sort of get your foot in the door. but you also it's that what that won't do it and you know the history is littered with you know the whole everyone listening to this probably far too young but Betamax VHS when video recorders came in they were a thing you know the better one got trumped it happens time and time again it's and for me it's the difference is almost always about how you feel about something and it's intangible and I think it's quite difficult to create it took us years and years you talk about so you talk about the bright colors we took us seven years to get to that point we started in 2006 with one newsly and then there was a long long long period of which we can talk about if you want to and then in 2013 for you know again serendipity our pack designer who was freelance got a full-time job and couldn't work for us anymore and i didn't want to go to a new pack designer and say uh can you redesign the packs but make them a bit better because that would be literally the worst brief ever um so we went through a process and so we managed to get a deal because we still didn't have any money at this point we managed to get the deals through our copywriter whose agency uh had a request from the bbc to feature them and none of the big brands wanted that so we were like we'll have it we can feature as nothing you can't you know nothing you can't over here so we've got a cheap deal to do a which is called an extreme consumer co-creation workshop um which really was testing with with various different consumers testing how far can the brand go what do people speak to what is the essence of fundamentally to come out with what is the essence of root health how has it moved and to to turn to be able to turn that into a creative brief so we started with this workshop um and then i did it we you know we kept on working we kept and then again this is where the why thing came up it was fine what we did in the workshop but i was like it's not specific enough we're not it's not tight enough we need to do another round we need to do more we need to really get there because we've got to nail this it's halfway there we've going to nail it so eventually we did three rounds um to to come out with what after seven years was a lot bolder we were a lot more confident we really knew what we wanted to do and we realized that what what we had been doing was trying to let the food speak for itself which is exactly what isn't going to work um and we realized what we needed to do was to be out there being what we wanted the food to do.

29:09So, you know, this idea of if you want people to feel in root health and all your food is created for that sense, either for people who feel like it, who want to feel like it, then that's what you've got to show. You've got to show the sense of being in root health. So the packs have to be in root health. And as a small band, our packs were our advertising basically that is that was it there was no other advertising so if the you know the packs are spot on and you're you know they're speaking for themselves on the shelves so that was the point at which um we we went from you know actually quite this massive quite typically healthy looking you know really the food credential packs which are quite brown quite plain quite lost on the shelf to what you see now.

29:58Although, I say I have to give massive credit to the designers because apparently the one thing that we'd said when we briefed them, Nick and I, the only thing we'd said, he said any restrictions, and apparently we said we have to keep the brown. I mean, neither of us has any memory of saying this at all. And quite correctly, he completely ignored us. When they came back with the designs, the one we chose was the one with the most colouring, zero brown. 50-0, bro. That's amazing. No, because I think I found a picture of the old branding. And anyone listening to this, you should Google it because it's like a brand.

30:34It's a complete rebrand. Yeah. So there's so much in that, Camille. I think what you're saying, trying to get to the essence of Rude Health, getting more specific, how to get a brand to speak or make people feel on shelf. lots of people listening to this will be trying to do this they'll have like a great product but they're trying to get the brand right yeah um what would you say are kind of the pillars or the principles the ones three principles that are needed to build a great brand because i think anyone listening to this could go away and potentially you know they may not have access to a root health masterclass but it may really help them just to get their brand dna across on shelf or on pack or on social etc yeah i i i mean i don't have a classical marketing training so there's probably a sort of actual answer to that question um but some some which is probably well worth knowing um but i think it's interesting hearing yours that's why i actually prefer not hearing the the technically as we were saying earlier i much better actually hearing people who've been there and done it themselves it was it was a combination for me so where it came from was um okay so it came it came from what was it we were trying to do so it came from what what do we believe and it came and that was I I love food food is my happy place I just you know eating cooking sharing food with people the whole the whole and you and you have to eat you've got to sleep, got to eat and you've got to drink.

32:09There is pretty much nothing else in life that you have to do. It's fundamental. So for me, and it was quite a shock when I left home to find out that quite a lot of people, what food was not their house place in any shape or form. And that was quite a shock. And I really felt like, wow, that's a fundamental that's not right. And that's not great. And part of the dislocation or dissonance, part of the problem seemed to be for a lot of people, there was a sense that if it's delicious, then I shouldn't be eating it. And everything I should be eating is going to be miserable. And it's going to be healthy and horrible.

32:46But actually, what I want to eat is that stuff out there, which is really bad for me. And for a lot of people, I'm being an extreme case, but there was a real sense that you weren't going to enjoy the food that you ought to be eating. And I'd just grown up with home-cooked food and anything. And then we had sweets and treats as well but you know fundamentally we were full of decent food and then the other rest was top up so nothing was off the table nothing was banned and nothing was ever obviously sweets and treats were like well I'm not gonna make that my main meal because it's not really gonna nourish me but I can have them so it was a very easy relationship and and I suppose really what we wanted to do was to make healthy food desirable as desirable it there is no reason that something that's nourishing can't also be satisfying and and that was what that was what we wanted to achieve was to to for people to feel like that about to feel excited about their um you know whether it's a muesli or a granola or an almond milk you know or oat cake it was that it's you can combine nourishment and and satisfaction, deliciousness.

33:53And part of that comes in what it looks like. So it was really, that was the sort of essence. That was why we started. And I think that's your, you know, that's a why. If you can identify your, why did you start? What did you want to do? You know, yes, you wanted to make an amazing popcorn or something, but why did you want to make the amazing popcorn or, you know, the amazing peanut butter, whatever it is, what made you want to do that what were you trying to fix um or what was missing and i think if you can get to that that's really important so yeah for us it was it was the making healthy delicious and desirable and was was a huge part of it um and as time went on it sort of slightly developed but if you know that that leads on to then well what would that look like you know how would that you can you can begin and where are the issues and where can you play with that understanding?

34:42And so it came from what were you, what were, what were we trying to do ultimately? What, what was our goal? And then, and then you've got a whole load of things to what's your competitor set, you know, and, and what are the important things for you to do for us? It was packaging. It was visual because the really obvious thing about health food was it had a really strong look and feel. It was brown and green and it sat in the health food shops. So we realized quite early on that we didn't, sitting in the health food shops wasn't going to rock it because it turned out. Because that was where our heart was.

35:16We're like, we shop in farmer's markets and health food stores. And about 18 months in, actually it may have been even less. It may have been only a year in. I think we had a few muesli's and some porridges at the time. Someone said, you do realize that 94 % of cereals are sold in the supermarket. And we went, no, interesting. right in that case right okay and then you know that's your decision moment where you go well are we trying to be a niche artisan brand or do we actually want this to be available for everybody and i mean we're pretty clear immediately we want this to be available we're not going to change anything we're not going to change anyone's relationship with food if we're only looking at six percent of the market so um yeah we realized then that supermarkets had to be part of our landscape you've said segue personally there commit us my next question absolutely genius i love it um so because that's what i was going to ask actually is again another pain point for listeners and you know it does pain me seeing brands go in go into a supermarket shelf um they've put put their kind of their heart soul blood sweat tears years into getting it on the shelf yeah and then they just get kicked out it's like a revolving hotel door and it's it's it's it's so sad and i think oh i kind of want to talk about how you guys drove the rate of sale on this because what was waitress your first malt listing uh sainsbury's but waitress was the first sort of big one in a sense right yeah okay so so how did you drive the drive the rate of sale when you were on a on a shoestring budget uh that is a really good question i'd say not very well honestly i I think it wasn't something we were terribly good at, which might explain why we've, and also, I think to your point, absolutely, it's really hard and you can get kicked out.

37:14And I think we've, the story that we were always told was, you know, once you've been kicked out, you'll never get back in. And just to reassure everyone, I can tell you that's not the case. It does not have to be the case. I think we've been kicked out of Tesco four times. that is so reassuring for listeners honestly we're back in we're back in we're in so uh we just it was there were a number of reasons it was a different reason every time but how did we do rate of sale well Sainsbury's was actually was our first marks listing and we were in the free-from aisle and that you are a little bit where you were a little bit more protected in that area because the it was such a um uh what's the word i want uh it's a very fixed demand it doesn't the people who shop there were shopping there and you didn't have to do a huge amount once they discovered you um then they would go back and buy you again and again because there wasn't an enormous amount of choice um and if you presented them with something which tasted nice and looked good you know bingo they were you it was a pretty good uh it was inelastic demand that's what I was looking for.

38:18Very inelastic demand curve in the free farm section. So Sainsbury's was actually a fantastic listing because that pretty much, our puffed rice pretty much got us through 2008, which was the recession kickoff because it stayed in and kept going. And at that point, that year, we had been expecting listings from bigger listings from Sainsbury's, new listings from Tesco's and listings from Waitrose. Of course, by the time Lehman's went down and then all the supermarkets were more or less clearing their premium ranges. That was the moment when they created Tesco Value and Waitrose Essentials and whatever the Sainsbury's one is.

39:05So, then absolutely the last thing they wanted was a new premium, super premium cereal brand. so we the only listing that came through in 2008 um was waitrose um and that was a big and stuck and i i mean we did everything we could i mean what i wanted to do was cut through so we couldn't have didn't have any money couldn't advertise um sorry to interrupt just just quick question were you in the old branding at this point yeah old branding this was 2008 the new branding didn't happen until 2013 so we're loud and proud on shelf dorset had done their rebrand by this time um so they were looking actually amazing they transformed the music category completely um and it was yeah it was really hard so i mean we would try what i wanted to do and i didn't we weren't actually terribly good at it what i wanted to do was something which which was different so when there was for example a bbc good food show exhibition which was one of the bigger and better exhibitions at the time.