How To ACTUALLY Win a CoOp Listing and Drive an Insane Rate of Sale

0:00Hello there and welcome to Hungry. Hungry is the podcast for the next wave of challenger food and drink brands looking to pour gasoline all over their growth. Each week we'll interview successful founders, thought leaders, unpack their lessons and provide you with the toolkit to scale super fast. I am Dan Pope, I am your host and without further ado, let's get started.

0:25Hi there guys, thank you so much for listening as always, it means the absolute world to me. Before we jump into this episode, I need a really big, big, big, big favour. I have pitched to some massive guests, humongous guests, and unfortunately they've said no because my subscriber count isn't big enough. Please, please, please just hit the subscribe button on Apple or Spotify or follow. Ultimately, it helps all of us bigger guests equals better conversations, equals hopefully better insights for you, which means you can scale hopefully faster with a little less stress as well. So please hit that subscribe button and yeah, enjoy this episode.

1:00Hey guys, absolutely puzzling that Mackenzie Jones are extending their partnership with Hungary. So gassed. In case you have been living under a rock, who are Mackenzie Jones? They are FMCG recruitment specialists. They work with some amazing brands, Lucky Saint, Real Superfoods, Hunter and Gatherer, and Purdy and Fig. Also with some of the big poppers, the big boys, the big G's, PepsiCo, Unilever, Campari. I've known Billy for Yonks, Paul for the last year. He's a top bloke. They're just super kind and lovely, and they're just dedicated to our wonderful space, our wonderful industry of buccaneering challenge brands, and that they're so much more than a recruitment business.

1:39Check out the podcast for them. It's epic. I've even introduced Mackenzie Jones to some amazing brands, and they've really helped them scale. If you're looking to hire, just reach out to them, have a chinwear, get in touch, do yourself a favour. Thank you. There's a horror story in food and drink that absolutely no one talks about. Now, it surreptitiously scurries through the underbelly, causing throbbing headaches, wasted money, huge amounts of pain. Dodgy barcodes. So many brands do the hard work. They create the product, name the brand, open the bank account, and then they cut bloody corners online and they order a dodgy barcode.

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2:46They really are kind of a spring well of advice for buccaneering brands. 95 % of their community are SMEs you can get free tickets to events and invites to talks big big picture opportunities who's like to pack organic boots and Sainsbury's and help you know with advice like exporting it's just so so so much and look don't say don't treat you there's an oh so special offer through the podcast get 20 % off your first year's membership with GS1 UK by using the code hungry20 at checkout thank you so much hello there people and listeners of the Hungry Podcast. Today I'm absolutely ecstatic to welcome Rebecca Oliver Mooney, otherwise known as Rom, to the podcast.

3:27Rom works at the Co-op. She's head of category for dairy, frozen, community buying and Brexit and has recently spearheaded Co-op's incubator program, which is basically set out to help challenger brands work with the Co-op better. so I'm so so excited to explore that with you today Rom pre her role at Co-op Rom has had an amazing amazing training with some big big corporates Mars, Nestle, Kellogg's, Muller, Biotiful I hope I haven't butchered that but yeah thanks so much for coming on today Rom I'm really really excited Thank you for having me what an intro I'm sorry I'm going to see you for me Happily happily So, kind of just set a bit of context, I suppose, before we kind of jump into this conversation, is lots of listeners and myself included, they're super early stage founders.

4:24And what we learned is there's often a massive disparity between what the sort of the retailers need and want from suppliers. and actually you know if you haven't got uh the mars training we haven't got the um the kellogg's training like what the actual skill sets needed to create really great you know pictures for example or how to actually work with retailers um so for us to be completely honest like we went into um booths about three years ago absolutely no idea what we're doing we thought oh yeah get the product on the shelf bish bash bosh bosh like that's you know jobs are uncool but we got kicked out it didn't work same thing happened at mns and lots of listeners are in that stage but they don't have that experience obviously now we've now got back into booze it's working really really well um lots of listeners are you know potentially they've come from a councilancy they've got no fmcg background so that's just kind of like to set the scene but i think what would be a really interesting place to start is you know lots of people think oh my god the buyer like how do we get hold of the buyer like the buyers you know it's just oh how do i approach the buyer am i approaching it the right way and it can get quite yeah discombobulating is probably the best word but I just think I'd love to know like what's it actually like fit for you Rom as as a buyer like what's a typical day um or week um typical day uh but that I'd love to say it's all really glamorous there is a lot of internal processes um that that we're always going through behind the scenes I I think it would be remiss not to talk about time.

5:57Everyone's really busy at the moment. You know, we talk about this time for society and we're right back where we were. We thought maybe we'd recover in COVID and it would give us some time back. But I think because of that, there's almost a pressure that founding businesses particularly put upon themselves of how do I hit the ground running with that first pitch that absolutely cuts through and how do I stand out around the many that you get? And look, we do get many. And you talked about the incubator scheme. That's one way of us recognizing that we need to work perhaps a little bit differently with some of those smaller micro suppliers that haven't got the experience or the knowledge that you've talked about from some of the bigger companies.

6:39um typical day we could have a number of people emailing in telling us about fantastic products um for people like me that that's brilliant i get excitedly giddy about that sort of stuff um i think particularly when you reflect on the the 12 18 months we've had where we've got people who are who are in buying because they love product and they love food and they love putting different things on shelves and you know we've got buyers who have done it all remotely and it's you know as pretty as products are it's sometimes hard to get excited about them when it's a picture on a screen um so i i think you know seeing those products that coming through um working through those initiatives um there's a balance as well between i suppose what we're doing in here and now on a day-to-day basis and also how we're elevating that strategic thinking um that the two lanes i suppose of delivering what's right now for our customers and what we need to be looking at to drive change now so that we're fit for future and I think there's no bigger change going on at the moment within that that shop of behavior and that dynamic in terms of how people are responding to what we continue to term the new normal but it's probably going to go through even more change over the next 12 to 18 months as well no no for sure it's I mean it's that we'll come on to that in a bit because the landscape has just changed what post-covid massively and i think it'd be interesting to explore that but i suppose first what you said there about time and pre this conversation i you know i reached out to listeners like you know what are some of the questions do you want me to ask rom and uh you know copper club is a wine brand momo kombucha is a obviously kombucha brand some of the questions that were were coming up from those guys like if you receiving so many like emails from potential suppliers um you've got all the internal processes as you said like you're super busy your time and as you as you said ron right before we went on air like you've got two kids like you're homeschooling it's not just like it's just not the co-op day job it's like ron was a mom day job as well like you are super busy what are like the one or two things that brands don't do enough that if they did would would actually grab your attention like is it sending samples like what are you actually you looking for um so i think it would really help listeners with their approach to retailers um i think samples are great samples are a um a shop window into your brand um and i think um you know now people are back in the office more being able to see other people's reactions to samples are always great because um you know you may love something and you may share it with uh 50 other people and you might be a straw poll at once.

9:23I think if samples are sent in and they're shared around the office, it helps de-risk some of that because you get people's viewpoints and people's commentary and thoughts. I think buyers particularly do get a huge amount of emails in their inbox. I think the emails that are short, concise, what's the one, two, three things that that are really important that I need to know that are going to make me consider whether this is the right fit proposition for a co-op shopper. So tell me a bit about your brand. Nobody's better to tell me about your brand than a founding director of the brand. Tell me something really exciting about it.

10:07And you can do it in really creative ways. You can do it really cute ways, really memorable ways but tell me why it's right for me tell me why a shop is going to stand in front of a co-op fixture and go of course i can find that brand here that's why that brand fits with co-op um and then you know understand that buyers will be going through a whole raft of emails they will respond um but it's it's a timely thing so the brief of yours is the more your stands out the more exciting it is the more engagement you're going to get from it that's so interesting because that's why i love doing this podcast you kind of reflect on things but we've i've always sent in loads of samples of money life to ever to ever because i always think there's this like osmosis effect where you know you're you for example say i'm sending you money life you may not like peanut butter for example you may find that taste but if if she I love peanut butter.

11:03I love peanut butter. No, no. But if, you know, for example, say it's something you don't particularly like, but if, you know, when you were working on those pods in the office, if they're all going bananas for it, it's just going to help you make that decision. So I think for listeners, like be generous with samples, I think is a really easy, you know, tactic to put into place. Also think about how you send those samples in. So, you know, a jar of peanut butter arriving, great, people might take it home with them. A jar of peanut butter arriving with a different way of eating it, creating a snacking consumption.

11:36So the jars opened and consumed instantaneously with a little bit of, oh, why have they done it that way? That's different. I had some samples sent from a drinks company recently and they are launching a UK based flavor and an American profile flavor. And they were all wrapped up in beautiful American wrapping paper and British and really took you on the journey. And, you know, I was that giddy six-year-old child ripping off the wrapping paper, getting excited. I knew what it was, spoiler alert. I knew it was going to be a drink. It was a bottle. But just that kind of excitement of it being a little bit different.

12:13I think maybe stretching how you bring part of your brand's DNA through how you deliver samples to buyers is worth thinking about. no it's so and to be honest fundamentally like that's what on paper challenger brand should be good at like that's the creative side just thinking outside the box and and i think that idea of as you say it's the first touch point with the brands everything so really spend the time thinking about how you send it in um is is really really pertinent but and this is where i want to go to next actually and you segued perfectly there on but is so what you said you said why is it right for me why is it right why is it you know a co-op shopper going to go into the store and pick it up why is it right for me now i think founders are fan early stage founders haven't got like the bigger backgrounds right but they're amazing at telling their story they're usually mavericks they're very gregarious they're you know you you put your founder in front of a room like you'll have them you know he has people in his palm right he's very very good at telling a story so there's that they're good at telling stories but what is the hardest thing it's the thing that baffles my head all the time right still is how to actually translate that in to bio language or co-op specific language like how how do they do that on let's say they say you we've got a meeting with you like what are the things you're looking for like to tell a great story but tell a great story that's in the language of the co-op if that makes sense so um You know, I love stories.

13:49I'm a huge believer in the reason why stories work is because we've been communicating through stories since the beginning of time. And therefore, there's something intrinsically in us that hooks into it. And I think it's really important for brands, especially challenger brands, because sometimes your story is your real strength. So if you can tell it well, fantastic. Then there's the bit that you're talking about, which I call the so what? Yes, it's a great story. So what? So what am I going to do differently? Why do I want to do something differently about it? And I think sometimes there's this myth that to tell the co-op story and the co-op language, you need a wealth of data or insight or expertise.

14:33And I think maybe sometimes people lose sight of within challenger brands, you are your brand. and so nobody can talk more coherently about your brand and how it's shot in that moment than you so i think there is almost a bit of self-belief in you've got this but just help articulate more clearly the so what so from a co-op point of view is it that you have a proposition that is bang on trend from a convenience element that will hook into why we know a lot of people or in our stores? Or is it something in line with one of our strategic trade missions? Is it aligned with our desire to be able to deliver local better for our shoppers all of the time?

15:19And I think if you're talking at that level slightly higher up the funnel before you're going straight down, you're still telling that story and bringing people on the journey. And then you might get into, maybe you have run some insight in a budget-friendly way that's talked to co-op shoppers. Or maybe you've got friends and family who can tell you why they would expect to see this product in co-op or not see it and what needs to change. So again, I think sometimes challenger brands need to bring that creativity and that passion that has told that story for their brand into the way they tell they're selling.

15:58Really coming up with a clear, we can tell you why it's right for you. But being able to do that in a way that isn't about stressing budgets, hundreds of slides on a presentation. Don't show us all of your homework. You know, we trust you. And tell us again that, you know, it's that bring us the big insight really briefly and then open up the conversation with us. No, it's so interesting. I think that's, I've gone wrong on that so many times because it's, you know, just, you know, waxing lyrical about peanut butter is great, but if it's not speaking in that in that shopper language then you know you're trying to fit a square into into a circle essentially so just for listeners right they again i suppose it's an issue with challenge brands they don't have access to the the the nielsen or the kantar data and the you know the big heavy data i'm just trying to think of someone like some of the listeners who are literally kind of doing this out their kitchen etc or not their kitchen but a super small scale so they could be looking on the grocer for for those insights they could be looking on like where can they get those insights if they don't have the budget to fork out on Nielsen or Kantar data?

17:06I've been really lucky to have really big budgets to write these sort of sell-ins and category visions and strategies and also the privilege to do it on very very tiny tiny budgets so I do like to think that I've learned where you can stretch and where there is data available look the internet is a source of data and some of it's right as well. Things like the grocer, Mintel, Statista, there's loads of types of information where you can get kind of an idea of the growth of your category that you're operating in in the UK, wider than that. But I think also looking at how you can bring insight into your business.

17:49So it's not always about the quantitative data of Camtar or Nielsen. and you'll have your own sales data. You'll be able to know what sells when. Is there any seasonality in it? We talk about what's right for us and overlaying the co-op element of it. Do you have packs that lend themselves into that more convenient format and therefore you would expect to see a benefit? And good buyers, when they're engaged with your proposition, will help you go on that journey. So yes, of course, you need something to hook them in, but actually if it's something that a buyer is passionate about and believes in look it's mutually beneficial everybody in the partnership wants it to succeed so i think there's also a bit from from challenger brands of when you've got that buyer engaged and you're looking at progressing it and seeing them as an expert as well and really listening to the advice that they might be giving you and because they're going to want the strongest proposition on their shelves hi there guys super super quick one um i write a weekly newsletter called hungry friday feast it goes live at 8am every friday i'm pouring my soul into this bad boy it's probably my favorite creative endeavor i've ever done i basically pick apart all the biggest lessons all the biggest learnings from all the wonderful guests and throw it into a feast or a newsletter we've got over a thousand two hundred subscribers come and join the party i'm going to put a link in the show notes is right at the top and subscribe and if you are already a subscriber please just forward it on to a friend do the amount of favor it would mean the world to me anyway back to the old episode boys and girls this is almost like bringing the buyer to the your side of the table as well and do it collaboratively i think that's the word collaborative is really interesting there because you know as i said at the beginning of this conversation there's lots of and i used to excuse my language like shit myself oh my god i've got buyers meet like how do i where do i go you know but actually if you look at it through a lens of like okay no like how can we do this together to create something unique um for the co-op shopper so just because i do think what you said there about don't bring your homework is really really interesting about you know i think lots of i think some of our early decks were like 32 pages it's like going all shakespearean like one day a peanut butter brand started it's like you know i mean it's like cut all that nonsense out but so say just for layman terms and again i know there's it's each their own but if if they get a meeting they come up to the listeners get me to come up to the co-op head office how many slides is is a good ballpark and actually what do you want on those slides and again i know it's like it's each their own but it's just any steer on that would be super valuable for listeners i think if i could bottle an answer to how many slides i'd be a millionaire um I I don't agree with framing it around a number of I know people have well it's a 30 minute meeting so it's 10 slides or it's an hour so but it depends what you're putting on those slides I know people that will have 20 slides for a brief meeting but talk it through with the narration that actually you get to the end of it and you think I didn't even realize you'd move the slides on um I am a huge fan of less is more um I personally am a huge fan of having a conversation around it so leave time for that conversation to flow um what I generally want is that wow moment at the beginning that hooks me in that yep I'm listening now before you've got that meeting you've probably had a degree of that wow moment to kind of engineer the meeting in the first place but but that bit around whether it is your your Shakespearean story behind your peanut butter is condensed in a cute and quick way um but that that bit of yep this this is right I'm engaged in this meeting.

21:41There's something that I didn't know, something that's excited me. Then there is a bit around, you know, why it's right. And that can be, this is the size of the opportunity, this is the market, or it could be, this is the growth rates we're seeing, or it could be, we don't have access to a whole load of data, but we've had online sales through the whole of COVID and know that actually this category is underrepresented and is going to be the next growth category it can be any of that it can be you've got all these products on your shelf but you haven't got a healthy alternative and we all know and you can easily look on the internet to get stats around the importance of health and well-being and immunity and all of that so you're starting to bring your story in about why it's right and then you're going to bring in that back co-op language of why it's right for co-op and how you're talking to our shoppers um and thinking about, you know, people talk a lot about data and insight and how can I get it, but the best place to start is with you because you're all shoppers.

22:45At some point in your week, you've probably gone into the retailer that you're talking to. And if you haven't, I'd suggest you get into them before you go and have a meeting with them so that you can talk with a little bit of knowledge. But think about yourself in that shopping mindset because the Dan is going in at nine o 'clock on a Monday morning to buy something when you're going to a meeting and it's healthy. It's very different from a dam that might be popping in somewhere on a Friday night and your basket is going to be very different because it's been a long week and you're rewarding yourself.

23:17So how would you talk to yourself at those different points on your journey? And where does your brand as a challenger brand fit into those day parts? And that will help you understand which retailers it's important for, which store formats it's important for um and talking about that shopper journey throughout the day can help out that's so interesting so it's like having just seeing your product and then almost kind of viscerally looking through the retail and being like okay when is this going to be brought and like how often and that would be that would provide interest well yeah as you said the hook that could be the insights that you need as a buyer because i'm assuming i'm not assuming but I can imagine well for example at ManiLife we wouldn't have done that you know ages two three years ago now we've had lots of help and we're more experienced but we would haven't even thought about doing that we'd be like this is great peanut butter do you like it yes or no um but you said if you if you play that through so for all the people that are at that journey that they are in that this is great peanut butter do you want to list it if you rewound those three you still could have answered those questions you still could have told me this is great peanut butter and people are consuming it for breakfast in lunches for an evening snack it's healthy it's tasty and actually we're seeing an evolution of snacking occasions which peanut butter is coming into and therefore within this retailer where you're really strong on healthy snacking this is a great proposition for you i don't know your data i don't need your insight i can make to your point i can make some assumptions your own brand you'll know all of that and that's that helps bring it to life and then it's not for a buyer it's not just that jar of peanut butter it's I can see I can see how I would use it but now you've challenged me to think about all these other occasions that other shoppers would use it for and you've stretched your brand already for me I love that actually you said challenge me to think about the thing and that is the crux of a challenger brand is push those boundaries and think about different ways and usages of and occasions of your product um again just just out of curiosity here i suppose what what has been like the favorite your favorite pitch you've ever received from from a smaller brand and and i suppose why what um i i recently had one um uh from a i mean in my role i'm i'm i'm really lucky that i see loads of great pictures from loads of great people and obviously um with our incubator scheme we're setting it up a bit differently and we've also done things about that um we've run sort of disruptive days where people could come in and present brief presentations to us but the one that sticks out was um a dairy company recently um a company called hesper who make yogurts um in the north and sort of icelandic type yogurts and um i got home to a cool bag on the doorstep um and just everything from the moment of unzipping the cool bag for me felt in line in line with their brand identity from the um the information that was in there that was printed out really easy for me to to kind of read through but was written very much in a this is why we think it's right for you that the way that they um they create their product their collaboration their cooperation kind of hooking into things that are very co-op and their flavor profiles were kind of pushing the boundaries within dairy so I was already quite excited by the flavor profiles and then I got to try the product as well um and right the way through from there as I say the messaging to the packaging to the product all hung together.

27:02So it felt, it felt as if I was taking on a brand journey with them. And I just thought, you know, back to what we were saying earlier at the beginning, think about how you're sending those samples out because that was almost an experiential sampling for me. I felt very immersed in the experience of it. And I think those pictures where it is all, it doesn't jar, it feels very smooth the whole way through every point feels in line with your brand. And I do think life's tough. Look, we're all tired. I'm really, really tired. Anything that you're bringing in that excites me, that gives me that burst of energy, and pictures can do that.

27:43Done well, pictures can do that. But the ones where you go, oh, we're almost out of time and you're still talking about it, they're real energy gifts for a lot of people. so I do think that there is something around challenging challenger brands to be experiential in your pictures I'm not talking being sort of up on the ceiling I'm just talking about bringing your brand to life and your ethos and your company's DNA at every touch point no I love that and it's so I mean I've always sort of thought this but it's like I always say we are it's we're speaking to human beings speaking to human beings like fundamentally we want to be wild excited we're emotional beings right and i think i think there's something a worry within challenge brand spheres that oh my god i'm going to go so far you know to the left i.e so experiential that i'm going to lack the um commercial you know uh gusto to back it up but i do think what you said there's interest like no you know rom it has kids she's like she's come back from work this brand's on the doorstep it's experiential it's it's made her feel good right but i suppose brands are good at that then i suppose on the other side of that equation which is probably more of the commercial um side of things so they'll they'll intertwine in in the deck you know how it's right for the shopper at the end then do you would you like to see in a best case scenario like an opportunity So a brand would go away and say, we want to be in X number of stores.

29:16We predict rate of sale of this, this rate of sale. This is your total revenue. And then this is marketing spend. Is that something that's going to really hook you as a buyer? I think it gives you, we're all looking for that indicative. You can come away and go, love this. Again, it's back to the, so what? Can I afford to put it on the shelves? and you know I remember when I was a supplier people used to go we don't have stretchy shells of course you do it's true retailers don't have stretchy shells we can't keep shoehorning things in and therefore spaces like renting space the product there has to earn its space and so some of the basic ways that we would look at that is the commercial offering behind it and you can then strengthen that in terms of thinking about what else you can talk about.

30:09So it might be that your product has a great commercial package behind it, but also you might know that when people pick up your product, they pick up other elements to go with it. So you're helping us build a basket and you're helping people spend more in co-op. Or it might be that you do something great in a local community. So by stocking your product that is commercially viable, we're also doing something which is really important for co-op and for our customers, which is giving back to local communities so yes the commercial proposition is extremely important there's then a little bit of and this is also strengthening it and and again with challenger brands there there are often elements of either linking back to communities or or doing something a bit differently or reinvesting in the future of people coming into um the food business or education whatever it might be keep telling those stories because that that's what helps the product fall into people's baskets as well that's so interesting i hadn't thought about that actually like it's a way again i suppose peanut butter like we could say you know money life drives sales but it also drives the set the sales of bagels or and or porridge like that that's something really interesting i suppose for this is like what else have your commercial proposition but as as you say it's like so what is great but like i also think a question when you're pulling together a deck could be like like what else can we do as well like for the for the retailer um no no i'd absolutely love that so so then just on this i think the best way to kind of move into this part of the conversation is so you get listing and as i said but this happened to us with booze we're like oh my god batsman this is amazing products on the shelf and then to be honest we didn't have much experience so he kind of just sat there and then it died a slow death unfortunately now back in there but and it's doing really well but say you're a small brand you've got the you've got your product on shelf but you've only got a kind of a small budget of say let's let's say it's five grand to drive to drive rate of sale right and marketing spend what do you where would you be spending that money if you were a were a founder and i think actually one thing that I've noticed is challenge brands are actually sometimes better in this space I think because they're so much more aware of what they've got to spend versus perhaps some bigger budgets that they try and sweat it a lot harder and I think depending on what category you're in you might think you need to do something to drive people into stores so what's your footfall driving initiative but but the other thing that we often see is great social media credentials and equity from challenger brands you know your your customers really are almost um something that you that you can pull on and use your social media channels to do that footfall driving there and then using that um investment in store to really prompt that purchase and it's it's easier to so we talk conversion it's easier to convert people into picking up one of your products when they're already in store than to get them to make the effort to come into the store sometimes so i think using that that spend that marketing spend at the point of purchase or maybe a bit of redirection in store to go okay you're picking up a bagel don't forget your peanut butter or vice versa and or even speaking to buyers to almost facilitate do you want to do something more cross-category so do you want to take a small challenger brand budget here on peanut butter and do we want to see whether we've got somebody that we could talk to over here on bagels who wants to do some initiative together so again i think um being quite demanding of challenger brands thinking outside the box a bit more how can you sweat that asset more um don't just emulate that the traditional marketing spend um and one of the things we're doing with our micro suppliers is really cooperating with them and going on a journey to say you don't have to have all the answers we've got a fantastic shop and marketing team who are really knowledgeable so actually let's have conversations about how you spend that money to drive that return on investment because being really simple about it we all want people to pick the product up if you're investing in marketing behind it no i love that it's well so it's a win-win isn't it really it is it's absolutely a win-win is is there any examples of um like a challenger brand who's done something a bit wacky that stands out in mind i'm just trying to kind of i suppose latch on to that creative part you were saying at the beginning is there any examples you can think of if someone's been like wow that was a really wild way of creating some demand in store i think i think the strongest campaigns are where it hooks in right the way through um so there's nothing worse than than almost trying to force that creativity and it jarring against your brand proposition and I think that the key is around how you make it different so as retailers we all want to be able to offer points of difference to our shoppers because that means they come and shop with us and if we're all stocking the same peanut butter those those shoppers that like to sometimes go to other shops can go and pick it up anywhere but if there's something in your marketing campaign that as i said using your social media drives them to a co-op or if there's um a skew that they can only get in the co-op or if there's um a cute marketing campaign that they're buying into a reason to believe in the co-op those are the campaigns that i think stand out and as i say where where it it feels like it's part of the brand it you look at it and you go i don't even need to see the logo to know what brand that is.

36:04And those, those brands that can almost stretch their brand ID in that way are the ones that I think stand out more on shelf. Nice. No, I love that. And when you said hook right the way through by that, you mean, what does that mean? So, so I think having the, the, the strength of belief in your brand that you know what the messaging should be rather than taking a message that isn't quite aligned to what you're doing with your brand. So if you're talking all about enjoyment up here, and then you're marketing it very much health for one small moment down here, even though it might be healthy, people are like, but you're the brand that I buy into because of the enjoyment and the fun.

36:48Where's the fun in this campaign? So making sure that your marketing is always aligned with what you stand for as a brand knowing and one of the best ways to do it is um to ask yourself customers shoppers um to describe your brand as an individual who would they be what would they look like um and that gives you a real sense of almost this brand persona which you can anchor back to i love that no because we've actually got that we asked that again just thinking about this out loud we asked that question it's like who would we like to be who would money life like to be at the at a dinner party and then it just makes it you know we always have you know the person is you know having a drink speaking to people like you know having lots of fun and that really helps us crystallize how we want to be as a brand so i suppose for listeners if they ask themselves that question like who do you want to be at dinner party or like who who are you it then makes making those campaigns which true to your dna as a brand because i think it's so easy to get pulled left frightened center going oh this brand's doing that we need to start doing this and getting worried but actually having the balls to be you know punch in what you're doing is is super super interesting um on that note actually i just thought of an example um a guy called i think it's andy walker from it's a brand called t-rex like they got into i don't know which supermarket but he activated it by getting loads of people to dress up in um as t-rexes outside the store and he got loads of pr loads of press off the back of it i think it was in the grocer and it's like that i do what it's probably going to rent a few dinosaur outfits and it created a ruckus and it's like that's as you said it's making your money sweat being frugal yet forceful it's like it's it's the way somebody sat in a room somewhere and gone i haven't got much of a budget how do we create a bit of it's all dressed up as dinosaurs what did you do at work today i went and dressed up as a dinosaur But that creativity and that pushing the boundary slightly wouldn't have worked if the brand was kind of sat over in a very area that didn't allow it to be creative, that didn't allow it to kind of go, yeah, of course you're dressed up as a T-Rex.

38:57You're T-Rex, that makes sense. But yeah, anything that's, and that's the beauty, genuinely the beauty of challenger brands. You can do things differently. You can push the boundaries. You can be creative. You can bring those bursts of energy, and that is something that should be harnessed by all challenger brands. No, absolutely. So where I want to go to now, Rom, is specifically diving into the co-op now even more. I manage the co-op for Manly Life, so I find this conversation super interesting. But for listeners, your stalk segmentation is fascinating because you've got EC Urban, Everyday Convenience, everyday convenience plus and local supermarket how what are those differences i know that may sound just in layman's terms like what are those this uh those differences because i think it could help as you were saying at the beginning like listeners should go out to store and say okay for example you know we're a bread brand we're obviously gonna be better do better in local supermarkets for example but i suppose in layman's terms what are those differences across the store sector segments well it's like um choosing a specialist subject on mastermind isn't it i feel like i have a clock now let's go and see how it is um let's start with everyday convenience because that's sort of the the biggest number of stores fall into that and i think it's probably what what people think about when they think about co-ops so um they're found in a variety located locations um and they're really about one to two day top-up shopping missions that i'm going to pop in and get a pint of milk loaf of bread i go in a few times a week it's really handy i'm stopping on the way home from work it's it's close to home it's it it is that's what it says on the tin it's all about convenience um but we we've recognized sort of there's a um everyday convenience plus so um they're a slightly bigger shop um you're probably shopping for a few days rather than the next day or so um they are the baskets i suppose have things in like um we call scratch cooking we're still not doing as much scratch cooking as we're claiming we're cooking there's still a bit of assembly cooking going on uh frozen food features in there quite a bit more um uh traditional staple items that you would have in in a in a small shop basket um so that you can still see the convenience element coming through but the number of times your visit in a week is stretched a bit more um and your basket spend therefore is probably a bit higher in it um ec urban are located in uh busy areas might be residential might be city centers and they are the areas where things like meal for tonight food to go really capitalizing those baskets it's a i'm grabbing something on the way home to work but i'm going to go home and cook that real instantaneous convenience element and then we've got i suppose at the other end the local supermarkets um they're in rural locations um people are doing main weekly shops there they're the the bigger end of our store portfolio and that certainly comes through um in the basket spend and and they're really important to a lot of our shoppers as well because for some people that is their only option to be able to go and do a big weekly shop be it due to location their mobility or things like that so we're really always coming back to convenience but different degrees of convenience so again from a challenger brand if you've got a fantastic food to go proposition come and talk to us about ec urban don't necessarily try and put it in a local supermarket vice versa if you've got a bigger pack fill your fridge for a week opportunity that's probably not going to fit in one of our ec urban stores and get the sales that you want from the space as much as it would be in our in our local supermarket or perhaps an everyday convenience plus hi guys super super quick one so so excited look for years i've been badgering on about Hungary the podcast you're probably bored to death thanks for putting up with me but Hungary is also an agency and we look after one amazing brand called Ireland's Chocolate we've had a great time over the year we've won listings at a load of wholesalers we've won Milk and More we've got our first grocery listing coming very soon which is very very sick but what I'm thrilled to announce is Hungary's merging with HC Consulting my boy Harry Clark and his wonderful team he's an absolute g they do brand strategy new business business and account management but why i really love working with harry and why we've got on so well over the last couple of months is harry was actually the founder of the boozy isolate brand pops so he's been in the trenches he's grafted his face off he's had the sleepless nights he's had the turmoil he's had the triumph he knows what it is to be a founder he is a founder and he's got a proven track record in grocery and out of home holy moly dips the gut stuff savile drinks remio gelato so if your brand and you're you're stuck you're looking for like new business help you're looking to scale drop us a message we'd love to chat thank you so much back to the old episode again that kind of goes back to what we were saying at the beginning is is speaking in your language right because beforehand to be completely candid i didn't know about these segments i'd be honest and i think lots of listeners will probably be will be listening to thinking i didn't know that so i think it's interlacing those different segmentations into the sales deck and, and conversations and comms with your buyer going forward is really, really interesting.

44:30What I would say though, is again, I think there's this, this almost, this balance between us saying speak our language and, and then not frightening people to not come and talk to us unless you know everything about co-op, because you can build a deck and come and talk to us about, I've got this fantastic product which is um a drinks product that people are consuming on the go on the way to their work all the time and therefore we know that it would over index in locations that are targeting on the go that's then up to a buyer a good buyer to go well I can put that into an easy urban so I do think there's a bit of like yes we had store segmentation but I think actually if you've got the right knowledge base of your brand and who's buying it and when they're buying it and how they're buying it if you can tell us that in a simple easy way we can understand where it goes in our portfolio as well and so i don't want people to think i need to be able to understand this all the time just just tell us how shoppers are buying it when where and why no that is so reassuring rom i think because there is this oh there's this kind of thing in the challenges i case of like oh god any day-to-day to speak so in their language But I think kind of what you said there about come to us with the offering and then I suppose we'll cooperate, you know, literally cooperate and help you do that.

45:52I think that's really, really interesting. and i suppose on that then because what we discussed off of well pre-recording this was like the lots of brands can go into into um into a retailer and they may have you know their top 20 of stores that are really driving that rate of sale but then they've got this long tail of distribution that's dragging down the average and that's like a really challenging thing to to overcome right so could you speak to that so say say i mean what the exact wording you said was like quality of distribution versus quantity of distribution because i think everyone wants quantity but it's not always the greatest thing for anyone to be honest i get so passionate about distribution and i i genuinely can talk about it in a very understanding way because i've sat on the side of the table where I've been trying to get that distribution.

46:48And you're right, as suppliers, we've almost put this in as a KPI, as a, I will know if I'm successful if I've got loads of distribution. And so, you know, people are going after this huge depth of distribution, but I've got a great proposition, let's get it in as many stores as I can. So I do talk a lot from this side of the table around the quality of distribution. You genuinely can have the same sales from 200 stores in the right stores versus 2 ,000 stores in the wrong stores. And to your point, if you've got your distribution in the wrong place and you've got a long tail, that's only going to shine a lens on is this really working as opposed to having it in the right stores, having a great rate of sale that then gets built out and built out and built out.

47:38So, yeah, we've talked a lot about talking in our language, but again, you don't need to come and talk to us in that language. You just need to be able to really help us pinpoint where are the shoppers for your brand. And then collaboratively, we agree that they go in these stores and trust the buyers that they know where your products will perform the best. And again, you're absolutely right. It's that cooperation, it's that collaboration, and it's that mutual desire for this to succeed. So I do, I've seen it from both sides of the table. I have seen, you know, the push for distribution and buyers almost being, well, I know my ranges.

48:18I know that this will work here. If you're trying to push it out here, it's not going to work. I'm all for healthy tension. I think distribution is one of those areas that sometimes stretches to an unhealthy distribution negotiation. And it shouldn't really be a negotiation about distribution. It should be, are we putting the products in the right places for the right shoppers at the right time? Because that ensures the best chance of success for both of us. So it's just changing the lens and how you approach conversation. So as you say, I think the word distribution, it's like maybe a bit of an ego thing potentially, but everyone just wants massive distribution because that's the hallmark of a great brand, right?

49:00But I do think at the same time, as you said, 200 stores could drive just as much sales as this 2 ,000. I think we need to change that lens. So who says that 2 ,000 points of distribution is a great hallmark of a great brand? Me personally, I think a brand that knows where they will have the best chance of success, for me, that's a brand that knows what they're doing and will do well. And as I say, brands that are doing well will only ever increase their distribution if it's the right thing to do. But I do think it's that probably one of the biggest mindset challenges. um i don't know i don't know why that comes through so much but it as i said i think we just created it as almost this indicator of your store your brand is as good as how many stores it's in yeah no it's so interesting and it's um say say then to play devil's advocate but like say you say you are over distributed and your average rate of sale is getting pulled down by the long tail what is a pragmatic approach do you think is it is it go to the buyer and say look we've been given too much because again it's as we said it's that for me it's the ego thing it's like the last thing you want to do is say oh we're we're giving away some distribution we want less distribution because that there's this thing as maybe we're working through it now wrong but it's like the pragmatically in my eyes it's like okay we've been over distributed can we our rate of ourselves getting pulled down but how do you have that conversation what what is there any like things brands can do if they have got too much distribution i'll be honest it's not a question I was anticipating too much distribution um there's there's two things there's two ways that you can approach it you can either do something to drive your distribution social media drives marketing um and look shop and marketing is fantastic these days it can be really geo-targeted on if it's a certain area um but I think that that conversation around look we both held hands and jumped off this cliff with this distribution and this range of you and it's not working for us so it's probably not working for you retailer x what should we do because we know we've got something here we know in these stores we can see the data we know in these 250 stores it's flying in these 150 stores it's not right so let's be big and brave together again let's you as as a brand we're happy to to take the distribution tail down if if if you are um that is a very pragmatic growing up conversation to have because again it's probably the right thing in that instance for your brand to have the right distribution um and we'll probably actually get to a point where overall your your proposition looks better because you're taking the again we've talked about that depth of distribution versus the quality of distribution being proactive to manage your own tail um and then that's that's one more thing that you're helping the buyer with because you've done the analysis and come in and think actually we might be overly distributed in this area.

52:02No, a previous guest called Mark Palmer, he worked at Pret-a-Manger, co-founded Corson Press and was heavily involved in Green and Blacks. And what he said, which I think speaks on this, is he said loads of brands want to go from the championship and to the champions league straight away without going through you know the premiership and working their way up but equally and i suppose champions league distribution but when you're in the champions league the last thing you want to say is oh excuse me could you put me back in the championship you're like no one wants to do it it's like but at the same time it could be the best thing for you and your brand otherwise you'll get kicked out the champions league or and or get kicked out of retailer and that's that's the point isn't it by by by taking your distribution back a bit you might actually become a better performing brand depending on what lens you're looking through and i think that that element of being in the you know the premier league of distribution because that's where all the big brands here that have been established for years and years and years so that's what we're going for but don't forget these have been established for years and we haven't seen the journey that they've gone on a small distribution bigger build bigger build getting it right getting it wrong um i think it is that mindset shift of protect what's important about your brand so as a challenger brand your brand identity is really important um the dna of the brand that we've spoken about who the brand is where they show up um and being in the right places and protecting your rate of sale because it's much easier to talk about going again either being distribution or or growth or other areas for a high rate of sale because you can prove that people are picking up your products um you know distribution tails aren't good for anybody no for sure now this may be a bit of a tricky question but i've kind of i've got to ask this um is so some of my well friends and and listeners of this have had brands that have gone in and they're just not hitting that hurdle rate that they're just not and there's a delisting potentially looming and some have been you know kicked out of supermarkets and with small brands challenger brands like this isn't a job this is literally like their livelihood it's their blood sweat tears and that can be really like mortifying to be honest now say say that a brand isn't hitting the hurdle rate what would be an approach to have the buyer to kind of save the listing if if you can talk to that i think um you have to agree a way of working some principles up front yeah i am really a fan of um collaboration and and cooperation i think there's normally a little bit of risk for both parties involved in something like this because as a challenger brand you might be a bit untested in the retail space so as buyers everyone's saying give us that point of difference do something new with us um that doesn't mean that it's always going to be right first time and it's always going to work so i think um i think the relationship that the that brands and suppliers and retailers have together is really important.

55:06If you've got that right relationship, which is, look, we knew we were taking a chance. We knew we were challenging the norm. I think it's important to not just sit there going, well, I haven't noticed yet. I might get another few weeks out of it. I think it is those early conversations that go, is this performance what we both signed up for? Because you will have both signed up for it together. You will have agreed it together. And I think having those conversations early on in terms of, okay, what can we do? Do we need to do something to drive rate of sale? Have we got it in the right stores?

55:40Have we told anybody it's in those stores? What can we do that's quick to excite people about it? How do we do things a bit differently? And if that's still not driving the rate of sale, then you're into some conversations that's a bit more, okay, what isn't working? and is it something that we can change now or have we gone too early or is the pack format not right for here and and probably broader conversations about what you can do but i think you've got to have those conversations and you've got to have those conversations in the right way and you know you said earlier about you people buying from people being human beings we're all human beings and if i was really cheesy i'd link it right back to telling stories and communication right at the beginning but that is the key to it just communicate and you can't you can't have all of that one-way communication because you're relying on the buyer to know what's going on in their stores they can't do it all for you because you are the storyteller of your brand working together has the power to be phenomenal no i love that and i i think the biggest thing i'm getting from this conversation is pre going into this and probably for listeners is there's this there's this like not dichotomy but you think oh there's there's a buyer on this side of the table and a seller on this side of the table and that's that but actually no it's it's about telling a story that by telling a great story you'll bring the buyer and the seller to the right side or the buyer and the supplier is the right side of the table both yeah the right side of the table and then it's consistently telling stories throughout you know it's not it's not just get you know if things are going a bit pete-tongue and the things aren't selling tell a great story to the buyer communicate to the buyer um and and the supply chain team etc um so i think that's that's fascinating it's about and to the customer so it is it is all about stories so so tell me your brand story get me excited and engaged about it this is useless because it's a podcast but i'm actually leaning towards the screen as if I'm engaged in this at this point.