How to attract, hire, keep and nurture incredible talent and build challenger teams that escape competition, lessons in hiring from Mackenzie Jones

0:00Hello there and welcome to Hungry. Hungry is the podcast for the next wave of challenger food and drink brands looking to pour gasoline all over their growth. Each week we'll interview successful founders, thought leaders, unpack their lessons and provide you with a toolkit to scale super fast. I am Dan Pope, I am your host and without further ado, let's get started.

0:25Hi there guys, thank you so much for listening as always, it means the absolute world to me. Before we jump into this episode, I need a really big, big, big, big favour. I have pitched to some massive guests, humongous guests, and unfortunately they've said no because my subscriber count isn't big enough. Please, please, please just hit the subscribe button on Apple or Spotify or Follow. Ultimately it helps all of us bigger guests equals better conversations, equals hopefully better insights for you, which means you can scale hopefully faster with a little less stress as well. So please hit that subscribe button and yeah, enjoy this episode.

1:00hey there guys quick one i want to reintroduce you to our beautiful wonderful sponsors mckenzie jones they are fmcg recruitment specialists um and i think oh god yes recruiter it's recruiter um they're less recruiter more growth partner they understand founders dna they understand what it takes to build a challenger brand they get the founder's mindset and dna they've worked with so many buccaneering brands lucky saint real superfoods hunter and gather in proserbrew but They've also worked with some of the big puppets, the big boys, Unilever, PepsiCo, Campari, and Lucas A. Red Bean and Suntory.

1:33Never knew that was one word, but it is. There you go. Fun fact. They can support across four key areas, digital and e-commerce, sales and marketing, supply chain, and operations, and even IT, which is just so fantastic. I can vouch for Mackenzie Jones. They've supported and helped so many of our listeners build brands. Please reach out to my mate, Billy Maddox. His email is in the show notes. if you want a chin wag or you want to build a team thank you so much there's a horror story in food and drink that absolutely no one talks about it surreptitiously scurries through the underbelly causing throbbing headaches, wasted money huge amounts of pain dodgy barcodes so many brands do the hard work, they create the product name the brand, open the bank account and then they cut bloody corners online and they order a dodgy barcode not sorting your barcodes out is like scoring your own goal before you've even laced your boots and got on the pitch.

2:24It's a souffle of aggro. You know, you've got to relabel products, waste time. I've even had a pal who's lost a planet organic listing so they had the wrong barcodes. But thankfully, not all heroes wear capes. GS1 UK are the superhero and they are the solution. Barcodes from GS1 UK are globally recognised, trusted and accepted by all retailers and marketplaces, giving you the confidence to sell your products anytime, anyplace, anywhere. but GS1 UK are so so much more than that they really are kind of a spring well of advice for buckingering brands, 95 % of their community are SMEs, you can get free tickets to events and invites to talks big big picture opportunities, if you like to apply organic boots and Sainsbury's and help with advice like exporting there's just so so so much and look don't say don't treat you there's an oh so special offer through the podcast, get 20 % off your first year's membership with GS1UK by using the code HUNGRY20 at checkout.

3:22Thank you so much. Hello there, people and listeners of the Hungry Podcast. Today, I'm absolutely thrilled to welcome my wonderful, wonderful podcast partners and sponsors, Mackenzie Jones. Today, we've got Billy Maddock, who's a long-time old-school friend who I've known for years and years and years, and his colleague, Paul Jones, who is the founder of Mackenzie Jones. and these guys have very kindly they took a punt on me back in November last year to really kind of go hell mary with the podcast and so yeah it's just been helping me get this thing off the ground and look I'm you're probably listening to this thinking oh my god he's got recruiter on and like they are recruiters but I really do think in many respects recruiters are super super important especially for challenger brands like you know we've used them so many times at the brands i've worked with and they you know building out the right team is super super important and recruiters help that and of course there are some cowboys out there but you chaps so kindly are not so thanks for coming on boys i appreciate it pleasure thanks for the invite no worries um so yeah as i was as As I was saying, so there's a quote that I love, which is the, for the strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

4:45And it's quite a weird quote, as I'm sure you guys know, I sort of, what I sort of things I like to do is weird quotes, but it's a great way of summing up the challenger mindset. And I think as a challenger brand, you are a wolf pack. You're not a big organization. You're super small. You need to move fast. You need to be nimble. and one dodgy hire or one dodgy hiring process can get that it can basically put a weak wolf in the pack and that slows the pack down or it causes the pack to go in the wrong direction um and so what i really want to get into today is for people listening to this who are building teams who are going to need to know how to hire the right wolf is that that's why we're putting it is some of the things and some of the watchouts you've learned along the way so i think like let's start with there's a founder listening to this they want to hire in sales or marketing which you guys do both of and um and let's start with this job description because i think people can get that wrong and actually the market's so competitive it's really important to have kind of lucid clarity on that so i don't know if maybe bill let's start with you mate and then we can go get your kind of echo or two cents on it as well paul but yeah perfect what do most people or most brands get wrong with the job description yeah it's a really good question it is something it's something i feel pretty strongly about to be honest um and i actually feel and i come on to explain why surely but i don't think it should be called a job description anymore.

6:27I think gone are the days where you can get away with listing the responsibilities of a job on a Word document and thinking that's okay. And it's a candidate-led market out there and candidates, the best candidates out there aren't going to be out applying for jobs and being active in the market. They're most likely to be approached or approached by founders or recruiters or wherever they might be. and they need to be sold to. And that job description or candidate information pack, as we like to call it, is so important because it's ultimately going to determine whether that individual decides to progress with your company or not.

7:07And if you take an example of if you're a candidate and you get, if you see a Word document which doesn't really list much about the business, it just tells you what you'd be doing in a NAMRL, for example, or if you receive a PDF of 10 slides, which is on brand with colors, logos, photos, of really bringing the brand and the story to life, the culture, the vision, still including in there the lists, the responsibilities of what the role involve, but it's contextualized in a way that's really bringing that business and the opportunity to life. if you're receiving those two documents it's uh it's it's like it's like you wouldn't you wouldn't put a word document on your instagram to announce testers listening and you wouldn't put a word document when you're trying to raise a million quid off an investor so why send out a fucking word document yeah when you're trying to listen to it trying to get a talent in and it's i hadn't thought about it as well because again it's it's something you know even with islands we were just flinging out um word documents and it's so important like you as you say it's a candidate led market the the candidate's got the agency it's but even more so now with this kind of hybrid working stuff is the the the candidate's definitely got the power and i think it's like would you have like have any any examples of that not which we could put in the show notes because i think that would really help anyone listening to that or yeah we need to get we need to get permission of course but i think that there's and i'm sure they won't mind us name dropping them but the best example of a business I think Paul and you may agree is is AB World Foods um they do this incredibly well um Candy Kittens actually do it really well in fairness um Lucky Sane do um and the most recent example the best example recently is um Adam Parker from Ocean Sabre he's put together an amazing um amazing pack an amazing advert so there are brands that are doing it really well and it is working and um you know i can't tell the amount of times where it really just determines whether someone goes forwards with that business especially if they're running and are so it can ultimately determine if you're going to get the best talent in or not and paul to you mate to kind of um to build on that because i don't mean that there's kind of again not the elephant in the room but what on this job description should should brands include salaries what should they be putting on so i know billy said right let's let's put the brandy bits and they're really important because i think you've got to start with a vision but then you need to make it really clear of what this person's actually going to do because i think the more rigorous you are up front everyone's on the same page everyone's got kind of um that probation period is smoother everyone's just it's just board work up front yeah it's down the road But what should they be in that bit?

10:02I agree. Look, I'm going to echo Billy's sentiment. Another business which is doing you very well at the moment is Lucas Aedra, Bina, Suntory as well, bringing a lot of colour to an engagement with the candidates. And I know, you know, we've talked about being a sort of a candidate-led market. I think it offers, more importantly, candidates reassurance, particularly in the challenger world, that the client is committed to hiring. there's been some thought that's gone into it and they're doing you know as much as they want to sponsor their brand they're recognizing their people agenda is equally critical to support that growth so they're invested in that so i think it can come across a bit lazy a word document so um and from regards to a detailed perspective look i think we've some of the brands we've mentioned you know that they're better known and more connected with a wider audience with a going to challenge a piece I think it's really important to bring that that color that journey they've been on a bit about the founders or the owners how they formed their purpose their roadmap their ambition I think that's that's uh you know it's really key to a candidate to to connect with and what I find sometimes with job descriptions that I've read is people just list responsibilities of the role and that to me that's kind of a bit of a so what uh you know what What are the deliverables?

11:23What will you be getting involved in? What are the big plays? What are the programs that you're going to be focusing to really bring the role a bit more to life? It can be a bit generic and bland otherwise. So bringing color to the brand, bringing that personality, explaining who you are, being really genuine, being really authentic, backing that up. Well, this is why we're hiring. This is the journey we're going on. And hey, look, this is what you're going to be doing. Do you want to come and have a chat about it? You know, that's, I don't know if I was of your question, Dan. up yeah yeah i know i was just gonna add there's just a couple of other things i'd add to that just if listeners are thinking of potentially adapting the way that they put these these job descriptions or candidate packs together um you mentioned it earlier dan i think definitely salary and the full package details should be on there because they'll there'll be questions that the candidates will ask will want to know anyway and some actually will um go accelerate straight to that because it's the most important thing they'll see so that that definitely needs to be in there at the moment a lot of candidates will want to know if it's not readily available if they've not seen it yet what a brand's sustainability policy looks like or how much they're investing in that and also their diversity and inclusion policy as well and it is something that candidates do care about more than ever and it's also a great opportunity to include cultural snippets in there.

12:52Let's just remember. Yeah, just jump in the eye, Billy. You're spot on. I think the salary is important, but it's also important to bring the wider benefits piece together as well. I mean, we've got some organisations that we work with that they will match someone's personal charity fundraising up to a value of 500 quid, the volunteering days, some businesses work summer hours, you know, and how they connect as a team. And it's not all about the salary, although that's important. It's just kind of what are the factors. So understanding the kind of the wider benefits piece and what it's like to work there and how you support learning, how you support development.

13:34And we've worked with a couple of the classes. These are good examples. They've talked about candidate success stories. So they're talking about candidates that have joined the business and the journey that they've been on. so people can see the growth that they've been out they've been supported and those are encouraging noises to a candidate you know that there's a place to come and grow and to learn to be part of a bigger journey and be clear about the role you're going to be playing in that journey it goes back to like this i'll say again the strength of the wolf is the pack and the strength of the pack is the wolf it's like as i said you wouldn't send a word document out to investor you wouldn't send a word document out to pitch to sainsbury's you wouldn't send a word document now to to get um you know put it on social media and i think if you can get really clear with the vision of where the wolf pack is trying to go what your values are what your values are then you're going to attract the right what white white wolf white wolf bit of a fucking mouth for their chaps um that's really interesting what what i want to talk to you about um now paul is maybe you can lead this one mate is um a big thing happens with challenger brands where they cross this chasm where the team gets quite big yeah um they've probably got a sainsbury's a waitrose listing and they they feel the need to bring in a corporate person and i know you've kind of straddled um that's what i remember just saying it yeah yeah yeah yeah talking about a uh i know you've uh you straddled both challenger and corporate you know um but but you know ben Branson from from Seedlip said he hired three big corporate people and it just didn't work no I've said this numerous times on the podcast sometimes it's like getting a cricket coach to teach rugby it's not that they're bad inherently it's just it's a different sport that's one part of the argument or where I'm kind of um thinking but then I've had I've had examples and it doesn't have to be like an md ceo role but there's other examples where um someone fits in perfectly typical example would be um maybe someone like emma heel i think she'd done quite she'd maybe worked at a corporate before mark palmer's another example so he worked at um uh united biscuits before he went on to green and blacks um obviously preta marge is now now founder of of uh uh course and press so there are there it does work and there's you know what i love doing about doing this podcast you find the nuance and things but say there is a brand at that level and they're they're looking to to hire more of a senior person like talk to me about that your experience with that yeah well look i wish finding the right wolf was an exact science dan but it it's not unfortunately and if someone knows the answer that i'd love to hear from them I think it's a moment in time where you are in the journey, and I think there are some different plays here.

16:36One is, of course, most importantly down to the individual because wherever an individual works, they have their own personal brand, their way of working, and maybe they want a bit more freedom. They want that more entrepreneurial spirit, and they flourish in that environment. So I think that personality piece and that connection piece is important. However, you're right. If you've worked, you've been plugged into a big corporate and you're managing a very well-established process. You're used to having bags of resource, being able to pick up the phone to any buyer in any retailer and get a meeting.

17:12It's very different. And we have seen people fall foul of that or heard about that in the marketplace. So I think that's, you know, I'm not giving you ours. I'm just kind of giving you the different sides of that particular coin. There are corporate businesses that have different arms or venturing arms or smaller divisions within their business. So I think it's worth understanding when you're meeting with candidates. Are they very much in the knitting, in the core? And then there's probably less opportunity to move. It's typically more matrix led. you can influence sorry when you say the nitty well the core business you know so you know if you if you look at a big fmcg business you know uh you know you lever png carry for example they have their core arms but they have smaller brands and smaller divisions that would support you know a different type of engagement and operating model so i think don't judge by the corporate don't judge by the business understand what they're doing in that business how they're influencing the business and also as i said the individual kind of a approach as well and on the flip side of that there are businesses that uh you know we we've talked about that they're scaling quickly and that's great we applaud that that's exciting that's what we try and help them with and they've got to a stage where they're how growing their infrastructure a little bit and understand how do we how do we grow up how do we scale how do we behave like a five to ten to fifteen million power business because those kind of key pivots while they're the one to a one to five and then bringing some of that knowledge and that capability is what what what that looks like in bigger organizations can add value so it's a question of where you are on your journey the timing direction of travel the individual what experiences they had and how they've operated within within those organizations i think it is it is very different and that's the thing to recognize and i think i know you're sorry i think you're going to say something just to jump in is that it is really different um and the best one example of someone we've been supporting recently is is bruce bruce alexander um he's got you know you won't mind me mentioning this but he is by nature he's been working in the corporate world most of his career um and then uh went slightly left field and went to be managing director of montezuma chocolate um and i'd met bruce after he'd left montezuma to talk about a move and and we discussed the the challenges and the differences between the two and And I just found it seriously interesting.

19:40And we actually put a blog together. Bruce wrote a blog article, which might be worth us putting in the show notes, Dan, just in case anyone's interested from all the differences between a big business and a challenger brand. Because he'd done both. Boeimi, our beloved sponsor, are helping build the fastest growing challenger food and drink brands. look if you're a small brand just starting out and need your first indie stockist your first hundred stockist to wholesale bohemi are the platform to categorically speed that up but if you're a big brand wanting to get bigger bohemi are also insane they make field sales marble smooth silky slick they're just epic ollie's ollie's been on this podcast twice actually they saw a 29 uplift in sales when using bohemi to check major malt listings availability insane 29 uplift by downloading an app insane lucky saying my boy aaron duff who's coming on this podcast in a couple of weeks weeks he uses it to manage a team of 30 people and they've lucky to have unlocked 500 draft listings by using bowie me look you've got to get involved with this stuff it's absolutely insane and it will categorically change your life it's just the sickest platform i use it all the time at ireland it's the riddle wrapped in the enigma um for sure and i think you know lou who as my mentor she she's she was at uh oh my god dairy cress so she got the big big experience then went to rude health and i think i think what where these that this where what i've learned through speaking just so many founders and brands is you want people who have the top line strategy but they're willing to roll their sleeves up as well so they're able to they're able to look at the sky but dig the dirt at the same time um i want to talk about speed um speed of hiring that is um in that in that in that uh in that the the i read this book called the algorithms for life right and there's this thing called explore versus exploit and basically it says when you've got an option you either have to exploit your ops exploit it straight away or explore and most people what they get wrong it's like the netflix effect right you you're looking for someone you're right i'll look at another candidate and i'll look at another candidate i'll look at another candidate or i'll look at another program, look at another program before you know it, you're watching like, I don't know, some shitty program on Netflix.

22:04And this book's really, really interesting. It basically says you'll only ever be 33 % right, whether you like it or not. So there's this point when I see it where brands either hire, they just think, right, I'll just interview the next person and I'll interview the next person. And as we said right at the beginning, it's a candidate-led market. And, you know, if you don't put that offer in straight away, like see you later son they're on for the night I've seen that happen numerous times so Bill like talk to me about the speed of hiring and how brands can do that yeah I think first thing to say is that we recognize that you've got a business to run as well and that is the priority and recruitment often is second fiddle if something else majorly important needs to get sorted out so it's easy for us to meant to say that speed is and tidal is of the essence um because even though we feel it is we understand that you might have more important things going on but right now and we're assuming that your listeners are going to be wanting to hire the best people on the market time is of the essence because if you receive a cv the likelihood is that you're not the only person to have received that cv so if you receive it and you and you wait a week to to to respond or to get them booked in, the chances are that they would have already had some conversations with some other brands and they're already further on down the line.

23:29And therefore that chance of securing that person could be lost. And equally, it's the same all the way through the process. If you weigh around between speaking to them and booking him for an interview and time between first and second interviews, equally another brand, if they're good, which we're assuming that they're good, then other brands won't hang around. They'll want to move quickly. And also, moving quickly from a final interview to making an offer is probably the most critical because I'm sure you've been there, Dan, I certainly have. If you have an interview and the longer it is before you have feedback, the more you start to assume that it's a no.

24:14So I just think it is so important. and it's all around a candidate experience as well. You know, if they move swiftly through the process and you're serious and show interest and intent to hiring them, then you've got a much better chance of landing them than if you make them wait and it's just quite a clunky process. And you're right, Dan, there is a view of the business that they meet someone and they think, well, there might be someone better out there. And I think that's what you're referring to. But, you know, it's an incestuous world that we live in, particularly in, you know, in this space.

24:46So I think, you know, giving the candidate very clarity on timings and being consistent with that and giving them a good experience, you know, whether they're successful or not, they go to say good things about the experience they've had and the business to their network. And who knows, you may need to get in the future. So it's seeing sort of the bigger picture on that. and then sorry just to close I think if it is more exploratory set it up as a meet and greet in a network meeting manage expectations because you know candidates would want to do that might be something for 6 12 18 months down the line but just be honest where you are with talent and recognize that talent has a network and will talk to it about the experience that they've had with you and your business yeah it's I mean I think I actually think just kind of digging into the nuance i think i think founders should always set aside time for it for the explore part as just going for coffees with with uh senior people even if you're above a brand yeah just you know that's how lu did it with us last time is it started it started really rudimentary and then the conversation built you keep in touch so that's actually a really good point for people listening to this is you can always be in an explore mode like nothing's stopping you from going for a coffee with a founder and guess what as you grow your business and you get into a card you may be able been one as a as a um as an md or a sales director and offer them shares so that's a really good point i think what you said there about the incestuousness of um of our industry is um oh i mean look we've got this supper club tonight like it's good you know is there everyone knows everyone and uh good good word spreads fast equally so does bad one yeah yeah and i think again back diving into the nuance here is there's a piece about how you say goodbye if it doesn't work and i was actually interviewed not interviewing i was speaking to someone at the co-op the other week and they've got a program called the apiary basically um uh kind of like future brands for the co-op and they've said and she was saying to me ellie she's lovely that even if it doesn't work for a brand is you'll get a good goodbye so they'll they'll be able to tell you right these these were your rate of sales in so you may not work for co-op but this you work you target the premium shopper they can then take that data to to a sainsbury's or to a whole fit so they've got this in place like if it doesn't work it's a good goodbye and i think i don't think brands think about this i think it's just it's a no and it's like well if you're treated at shit at the end of the interview process yeah um word spreads so what are the what are some of the ways they can like when it comes to feedback and giving feedback like what's what's the best practice there i don't know who wants to take well billy you are well he's gone um you've had to be back soon uh shall i take this one down yeah he did he must have really hated that question mate he's just after all that i've just said uh i've just said a how to say goodbye politely he's just fucked up just moved off um okay i think there's that there's that try saying feedback is a gift but it is uh and uh constructive honest feedback is is the best feedback i mean i think sometimes there's a view that you know you try and soften the blow to a candidate you might kind of you disappoint them and maybe you err on the more generic feedback that that doesn't do anybody any good to be fair the candidates that we speak to and they speak they've you know they when they're positive about the feedback they've had is that this is what we this is what we liked this is perhaps why it didn't have a positive outcome but this is what we would suggest you worked on for next time so it's actually giving advice around where they're learning and their development you know should be and I think candidates really value that honesty and that that to me is you know the best feedbacker candidate that you've all invested time in the meeting you've explored an opportunity it hasn't quite worked out but you hopefully you've all learned something from it and you can move forward on the on the back of that and I actually think by in terms again we I talk about this a lot with brands and founders is you define yourself by what by what you're not yeah so you can find the right wolf by defining what the wrong wolf is Jeremy and then stop sorry not saying it wrong but it's like okay this person wasn't the right fit because of x y z yeah this means when we hire the net look do the next interview process it makes us much easier to find why and we're we're a wolf pack of wise do you know me so I think that's a really interesting point is it's not just i think again it's that's why i like doing these podcasts you learn a lot of this is the kind of stuff you wouldn't think about but is it's not just about it's it's it's a valuable thing for you to do as a founder yeah you've got to work out right this doesn't work and i've seen it before car crash interviews not car crash just car crash hiring processes where people come in and it's just like oh my god you can just it just yeah sure look i think it's also important to flip of that on its head it's also equally important for the candidate to make a decision you know they very like they you know when you start to understand more about the business and the culture and what they're looking for i mean they are to where as much as the the client the founder is judge is making a view of forming a view on the candidate quite frank in this market the candidate is doing exactly the same thing and it's just worth being aware of that so after bill was perfect time image i've just done my whole sonnet or sonnet about doing the goodbye politely and then you just fucked up but i just don't much so kind of you but um yeah paul paul was speaking um you know about about we are saying that the feedback is great for the candidate of course and it's fair on the candidate but it's also great for the brand because the brand can back this wolf analogy if say you're a you realize that you're looking for a y wolf i.e the letter y and the candidate was an X or a Z, it makes you really clear to iron out, okay, right, this is exactly the right fit that's going to help us move faster in the right direction.

31:03Is there any examples you've got, Bill, on like how to...

31:11Yeah, just give the feedback that you want. I know you guys kind of do pull your more commercial, Bill, your more kind of digital marketing side, but it'd just be interesting to get your two cents on it, mate. I think the same for both I think the most important thing is that the feedback is actually shared fundamentally because there have been examples where that hasn't been the case and it's timely we don't have to chase the feedback as well yeah exactly and that is what can come back and bite you in the backside but any feedback that's shared needs to be it does need to be honest because that is what candidates fundamentally will appreciate.

31:54And I guess depending on how that interview is gone, really will determine just how honest you are. If it was a complete and utter disaster, it may be worth being careful about how that's shared. But if there's just one or two points that perhaps meant that they weren't considered to go forwards, then that candidate should and deserves to know they've invested time in preparing countless hours I would imagine before that interview so that the least they deserve is to is to understand exactly why it is that they weren't successful um so I think it's honesty and making sure what happens and honesty I think are the two most important things there and actually you've got anything to add Paul no I think I said a similar thing and I think trying to make as honest and constructive as possible and some of the best feedback we've had is when clients have given advice on what the candidate not only can work on but how they could do it so they've almost gone into a bit of coaching mode that's a pretty cool engagement to leave but that's a good exit that's more of an au revoir with a goodbye you know that's left them a really good okay they invested time we got on well they've told me that they've set out some you know some interesting areas where I can grow and learn from I appreciate that.

33:09I'll go and action them. Thank you. And that person would likely, you know, may consider working for you in the future or working with that person. Or telling their network. What a great business, these guys. They get a job, but they were really supportive on exit and, you know, couldn't be more positive about them. And that's the sort of positive noise you want around a crowded marketplace as well. Yeah, that's what my mate Alice said when she was doing the interview with Candy Kittens. She spoke really highly, even though she didn't get the job but I think that's the that's the situation you want I think I think there's a kind of couple more things I just want to touch upon um the first is this kind of cultural bit and I you guys have probably seen it more than me but some there's the whole sort of thing and you see it on LinkedIn being like you know culture isn't yoga it's not it's not yoga it's not like breakfast in the office free fruit free fruit yeah yeah i mean that's the sport table yeah i mean and beers on a fellow's day and a ping pong table if you're feeling extra fruity pardon the part of the pun there but um in terms of i think i think the example you we were talking about the other day mate is hunter and gatherer gather i always say that wrong gathering gatherer i always get it um but but but in terms of this culture piece like how should they be demonstrating that to the candidate from the off other than like the the you know beautiful presentation yeah i think i think let's firstly i think there's another bit that you could tie into this um and that's being front of mind before we even get to talking about a job or hiring or interviews is that if you're a founder and you're serious about scaling and bringing in the best available people in the market it is probably worth thinking about your personal brand and how you present that um i.e linkedin is the platform which seems to be the go-to um but using your linkedin and your personal linkedin page effectively can really help when securing and hiring the best talent.

35:22Because if you're known out in the market, then if you're saying and doing the right things and attending the right events and seminars, then fundamentally people will want to work for you and will want to work for your business and you'll be recognized, you know, straight away. So you already mentioned that Emma Hill does that incredibly well. She really does. You mentioned Hunter and Gavra, Jeff and Amy, to be fair, they're both very active. Jeff in particular. So there are examples of people who are really great at pushing out their personal brand and that can really make a difference. And then from a cultural piece, I think it's less around saying our culture's amazing.

36:05It's subtly letting people know that in the marketplace. so Hunter and Gather they do I think they still do this every month the team all of them go and do an outdoorsy activity together because they're all outdoorsy people Jeff and Amy certainly are and everyone that they hire seem to be as well and it works it's different and it's quite a nice story to be telling people so but they're not saying our culture is amazing they're just sharing the fun that they've had. So it's the culture, which is, it's organic culture that's building and they've built. That's a good point of view, because the culture is the people.

36:46You said the journey, but the people in the business create the culture. So there's also about how you connect the different people, the different functions, the different levels of people across the business to create one wolf pack rather than lots of individual wolves. I'm trying my best to you, Dan. I just I just sorry sorry mate yeah yeah the issue is is like we're obviously on the old beers tonight Chris in the hangovers they call it the wolf pack is that what you anyway I was I was in a business because I was in a business they did something really cool there's a business called Flower and White and they're on a really exciting stage of their growth journey at the moment and well done's gone and they've got almost Harry Potter-esque on it.

37:36They've invested in the kind of manufacturing. So there's a lot of different operators that come on different shift patterns. They've got some sales teams. They've got some marketing teams. But I think the people drive the culture and then actually how you connect the people to drive the culture. And they're a listener of the pod, Dan, as well. Big fans as well, the team at Flower and White. So it's good news as well. They must be good eggs. And the, you know, speak to them. They've got this, as I said, this pretty, I call almost Harry Potter-esque piece that they do. They've put, they've got, they've invested in manufacturing there.

38:16So they've got all sort of different functional people at different levels in the business. And they've mixed different functions and different levels and put them in three different houses. So the housing is naturally that kind of interaction across functionally, across level in the house. And then when they go out, the three houses then compete when they go out on their socials and do things. So you've kind of got a bit of an identity. It's a nice mix and blend of different characters, personalities, folks in the business. And, you know, this creates that sort of quite fun competitive element to it as well.

38:47I thought it was quite a neat idea. I thought it worked pretty well. Yeah, I love that. That's cool. No, completely. And, um, yeah, I see, I think there's, I think the main theme from that is, is culture isn't what you put on LinkedIn culture isn't a mission statement that you, you know, I think people think they can sit around a campfire, have a few beers and then bang, bitch, culture. It's like culture is the people is how you live and breathe it every day. Um, final point I want to explore actually is, is, is the candidate and Ed Williams the other day said to me, he found her at Candy Gittens is the candidate often forgets how much power they have and they should be stress testing the employee uh um i think look even i remember going to interviews cacking my pants and they're like have you got any questions it's like no let's just i'll just get out of here please and i think actually um you know i think i think that doesn't sound like you dan to be lost in words yeah yeah yeah yeah i mean it's just it helped me deeply this is as i what i'm trying to get at is how what questions can employees or candidates push on on the the interview process to make sure it's a sweet sweet deal do you mean yeah okay um so i think i'll guess you'll have a view as well billy are you talking culturally or operationally Dan just just just just ended like what are some questions if you were a candidate what questions would you ask to be asked to enter brands I would probably ask the question you know how would you measure how do you measure success and what would success look like to you in six months and 12 months time and try and get an understanding from the uh the client you know what they see is exceeding expectations it doesn't always have to be financial it might be non-financial might be feedback for the business saying they're going to you know when they're making this appointment to their business uh you know every hire is a critical hire what does success look like how do they measure it and i think that's really interesting i think that really takes the lid off uh you know the the client to appoint for a candidate just to really understand what they're thinking and where the focus of the the opportunity is and then i think the follow-up is then you know how would you how do you how would you support that uh you know you know how you know this is me it's where I am you recognize my strength you know where do you see my development areas if that's what success looks like is there you know how will I support do I need to be self-directive what would your advice be to make sure that I deliver what you want what you want success to look like and find yeah Bill yeah look I think yeah it's some good points I think ultimately it depends on what they're coming in to do it's if you're if you're all going to be if you're interviewing for a brand you don't know an awful lot about or you challenge a brand which is still relatively relatively early on in their development then if their vision isn't clear on if you don't know if you're not clear on their their vision or their mission then explore that ask that because a you will hopefully get a sales pitch on where the business is going but also you need to know you need to know what you're joining um and then b if you're going in and again if If you're going in to launch a marketing function or an e-com function or even to be the first salesperson in a brand, that is really clear what you're going in to do at that point.

42:15But I would imagine, would they want to know what their role will evolve into or what their position in the business will be once they've, I guess, done that initial project? And I think on that, expanding that, is asking the business, when they set that out of the road, what do they see as the barriers to success? And then talk about how they may be navigated as well. I think that's important to understand. I think that's a really good point. Because unless it's maybe for a senior person, if it's a CEO, obviously they can't really go much higher. But for these senior national account managers, for these brand managers.

42:54Or even head of sales, head of marketing. yeah yeah what is what's the roadmap because i think that i think that the yeah one of the worst things that can happen to humans is it's just a lack of growth and i think it's the job is you know you want people here for a long time you know what i mean yeah i think that's really again something i hadn't thought about um boys i've absolutely loved that and um yeah honestly so i can't honestly thank you enough how grateful i am for you letting me and supporting me honestly and I think if anyone's we'll put some of those bits in the show notes so you can download the files and get a feel for it because honestly when you know I think the Word document piece is such a game changer it's like as I said right at the beginning you wouldn't put your Sainsbury's presentation on a Word document you wouldn't put your Investor deck on a Word document you wouldn't put your Instagram socials or stories on a Word document so why do it with your employees so yeah look thank you and I'll see you in about 40 minutes providing on traffic for a nice cold pint in Peckham sunshine boys looking forward and thank you so much having us thank you so so much for listening to the podcast I really really do appreciate it if you liked that episode only if you liked it please do give it 5 stars, subscribe, tell all your friends, families, foes next door but one, cat, dog, whatever please tell everyone about this podcast it means the world to me and I really want to understand what your pain points are as the new wave of challenger food and drink brands please do hit me up on linkedin search dan pope and hopefully we can together create a more meaningful and powerful podcast for the next wave of challenger food and drink brands thank you so much