How to Keep Your Restaurant Rammed for 10+ Years: London’s Most Iconic Sri Lankan Restaurant “Hoppers” - Karan Gokani

40:35You're doing all the marketing yourself, which I was. Let's just get her in. We've got the notice period. We've got the probation period to deal with it if there's a problem. I said, okay, let's just plug that hole. Let's get her in. Literally in three weeks time, she did a few things. And I think having spent more time with a person in a room, sitting with them, you get this gut feel. I was like, this is not working. Three weeks time. A couple of projects going on, the way she reacted to them. We walked into our senior leadership meeting one day. And back in the day when the culture wasn't great, I would have had to say, listen guys, I'm not sure about this person.

41:11She wasn't obviously in the room. It was other people. Yeah, sure. It's like, I'm not sure. Then someone would have probably contested me and said like, look, but we still need someone. Until we find someone, let's keep this person. Someone else would have been like, look, but at least she's doing X, Y, Z for us. And on the ground stuff is happening, digital marketing ads, maybe the big picture stuff is not let's just keep her on until we find someone else or whatever it is literally looked everyone in the eye and before i could even say something i said okay let's just talk about x if i could say anything response was yeah we don't think she's right and everyone in the room agreed and i said this is where we have created a culture it's not just different values and like people bringing different things to the table we've got an underlying and we said look we will make it work let's just cut right now let's cut our losses because this is going to spread like a bit of a poison.

42:02And I'm not saying anyone is bad. They're just in the wrong place. So someone who might not work out with me might be great in another organization where something else is more, where they're more ruthless about chasing profits. Yeah. Or they're more ruthless about doing something different. But I think if you understand, it's a bit like, again, resonance is like, you know, that whole echo and stuff. If you can, if you are able to A, understand and B, then surround yourself with people who share your culture, you just get louder and louder and louder and stronger and stronger and stronger because you're just bouncing off each other and it just gets louder yes an organism otherwise the the walls just suck up the noise what's the last thing you radically change your mind on everything all the time if you leave me long enough for something i was like i'm that typical creative where if i think about something long enough i'll keep changing it so there needs to be a time delay and there needs to be a timeline yeah there needs to be a deadline without where I have to stop.

42:56It's like writing my book. I'll write a book. I'll come up with it. Next day, I'll tweak something. Next day, and if you string me on for three months, I want to change the whole thing. This site has changed shape about six times because it was a year long project. Jeremy King's got a quote, which is, maintaining your standards is the fastest route to bankruptcy, which is kind of a play on the words, but this whole thing is that you need to constantly change and reinvent and stay fresh to stay relevant. I think it's really interesting. I also think we're going to question ourselves all the time.

43:23and if you're again you cannot question yourself so you can you can I think again like sometimes I feel I am my biggest critic oh yeah same here and I am and I think it's a good thing to do because the world will only like if you always play to the world's benchmarks either you'll you'll be disappointed or there'll come a point where you know you get too I guess you get you're too dependent on something else and I guess you get complacent because the world would say oh wow you know you're great you've done really well I said I've moved on and I was talking to my friend Aziz Ansari the other day so we were doing that you know Aziz Ansari yeah yeah yeah comedian he's a good friend of mine and he had come in and I was doing an interview with him for a paper and we were saying the same thing he's like I do a film so I was telling him I was praising this last film he did it's called Good Fortune he lives in London doesn't he he lives between the two lovely guy man yeah yeah yeah he eats at Hoppers all the time we talk chat about food all the time I listened to him on Theo Vaughan's podcast yeah he was fucking amazing yeah yeah yeah he's just such a genuine guy so we were talking about this and we resonated he's like so I was praising his film this good fortune because I'd gone for the premiere and I was like dude it's really good and he just wasn't seeming like I've told him three or four times in conversation with others and just to himself I was like I really enjoyed that film which you should watch if you haven't yeah yeah yeah topical really well made and he's just like yeah yeah cool thanks and then he raised in the podcast because I think not in the podcast that was an interview for City AM and Steve Dineen was with us and Steve said you know what do you I can't remember the exact question but basically Aziz's response was when I'm on a project I'm hyper focused on it, I'm all about it but then once that project is finished I've moved on and like now that film is so that today if you tell me something about it it's like dude that was old I haven't even thought and I've probably found 10 holes in it myself so it's the same, you talked to me about Indian 101 today, my book I was all in I was promoting it it's probably the same thing with your podcast so I get after a big event or a supper club or even a podcast, I get this weird come down.

45:24Like, it's like... 100%. And I'm just like, and I'm like, oh. I've been reading this amazing book. It's called The Cultural Tutor. I've needed to send it to you. It's fucking amazing. It'll make you appreciate, and actually, I want to talk about this, like architecture and shit like that, but it'll make you appreciate London so much more, or any city. What's it called? The Cultural? The Cultural Tutor. The Cultural Tutor. Tutor. He's been on as a podcast. One of the best podcasts. I'm not just trying to get him on. But there's a quote, and it's by Herculitis, I'm really bad at pronouncing things, this Greek sort of philosopher, which is, and this is what Seth Godin actually brought up, this exact quote with me, which is, no man ever steps in the same river twice because he is not the same man and it is not the same river.

46:06Sure. So by that and to your point, it's like, yeah, we've done this podcast, right, as soon as I walk out that door, you walk out the door, it's like, bang, it's the next thing. But like, how, so that's, like, how do you deal with that constant self-criticism, constant evolving and actually are you at peace no no no that's something i've really struggled with yeah i think contentment peace are things that you just have to define in your head yeah and again there are crutches and there are systems you can build around yourself which are us in this stuff which are people which are people yeah very important like i told you about earlier like i think you i came to realize that okay validation is important to me in a way but it's like who so early i would chase validation from press our chase validation from critics yeah yeah chase validation from from uh you know like big name things i remember being on the today show two and a half weeks after touring america the my hopper's cookbook had come out we had been chasing the show for the longest time luckily suddenly got a slot i was over the moon about it our kids were young sue was very busy with my wife was very busy with you know stuff happening here there were some business issues and stuff like that that they were dealing with and i had been away traveling and obviously needed to be traveling she was very supportive about the whole thing my kids were this is 20 20 2 3 so my kids would have been two and five very young i'd call them on facetime uh on whatsapp and one would not be interested one was too young to chat so i'm like missing out time with them they don't really care about what i'm doing whether i've done the biggest collabs over america like like Powell's Bookstore, you know, all these different things.

47:43Superfluous bollocks, essentially. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And my wife was having to look after two kids on her own when she was going through a lot. And I remember this moment when I went on the Today Show. I literally had to extend my trip in New York because it got postponed once. I was scared it might never even happen. And then what do I come back with to say, look, I'll stay in New York for four days now. And the show never happened. It was like six minutes of Gloria, 11 minutes of Gloria, whatever it was. The show did really well. But I remember being picked up in a taxi from my hotel room, taken to the NBC studios, doing this show, getting great feedback from the producers, the hosts on the show.

48:19We were all bantering in the background. Felt great for those, like, 30 minutes that I was in the studios. Sat in a cab all alone, came back to my hotel room. It's like nothing has changed from 9 in the morning to 11.30 in the morning today in my life. Yes, I might have had a small Instagram spike. yes the book must have gone up to number one right now but tomorrow when I'm back in London and there are 50 more books nothing's going to change call my wife up spoke to her she was busy in the middle of a meeting she's like okay great well done that's it done and I was like what am I chasing what was this validation this felt like the highest point I could have reached in America with my book as doing a Sri Lankan book no one knows about Sri Lanka there coming from London to be on this lot prime time TV 33 million odd people watching it should have made me feel different but it didn't so i guess i asked myself at that point like what is the validation i seek because validation is important and then then i realized okay now today i'm far more sort of mature grown up not perfect by any means struggle with this shit a lot all the time what i've managed to do is i've got a very small core people group of people whether they're sort of friends uh certain mentors and then most importantly my team here yeah where where i will go to and that validation makes it, it's not enough.

49:32It's never enough. It never gives you that full contentment. But you know you're doing something right. The other thing I've implemented is like, so even after this, right, every time I've got a big podcast, I have this, because I'm so dialed in, like focused, you know, reading, everything, and then I'll go meet my mates who don't care about the podcast. Some of them, my best friends don't even fucking listen to it. They take the piss. Yeah, take the piss. My friends take the piss all the time. So I basically now have it booked in. So I try and do the podcast on like a Thursday or Friday. so that means that I've got a runway period.

50:01Sure. You know, afterwards I'll have some food and I'll go and just get pissed with them. But I won't talk about work. I won't talk about anything. It'll just be like, yeah, you're a dick. Like, is that a banter? But it's great. It's good to have that grounding factor. It just takes the edge off that kind of like, that almost adrenaline fucking... So fascinating. Tell me about growing up in Mumbai. Yeah. Mumbai. What's the... How do Indians and your child, how did they view the world differently to the way British do do you think how are we similar and different uh it's a hard question very different in many ways yeah um I don't know I mean again yeah I don't think it's a question I've come across before how are we different I think in many many ways I think culturally very different yeah um Indians have a hustle Indians obviously you grew up in a very busy environment.

50:56I think Indians innately have this sort of struggle to want to do better. There's a real energy and a hustle about things. I'm not saying London doesn't have that, but there's a peace as well. There's a contentment and satisfaction across the board generally. And you'll have spikes. It's like you go to New York, you compare New York to London, New York has so much more hustle. You can't like just be, if you want to succeed in an industry, you can't just be cruising. You've got to really push. And I think India is very entrepreneurial, especially today. Yeah. I've obviously, I keep, you know, fingers and toes dipped into things there.

51:29Yeah. But that's more superficially, more knowing what's happening. Sadly, I don't have any real ties to India apart from all the food and, you know, cultural ambassadorship I do. But I think, you know, there's some great life lessons in there, which are especially relevant to running a business in this country. Like I said, it's hustle. Hustle. Getting the job done. Yeah. It's about, you know, being result-oriented. Say, okay, this is the result. Like, forget about the problems. The problems will solve themselves. And we'll find ways to solve the problems. Yeah. But I think over here, I guess it's that third world versus first world.

51:59When you have enough, you grew up hungry versus growing up having enough. I think fundamentally changes. It's like, you know, you go to Scandinavia, people are like way beyond that. It's like now they're thinking of, do I have a four-day weekend? Am I working every alternate weekend? I'm not saying anything about you need to work a certain amount of improvement. It's just that hunger. It's about the hunger. Okay, hunger, what else? What other maybe? I think hunger, hustle. Yeah. There's a sense of community. There's a big sense of community in Indians, which I find in the Irish over here, in the Scottish.

52:32I think, you know, sort of Brits, Brits, especially in London, sadly, we've become very insular. We live in our own sort of little bubbles. In India, I grew up in a block of apartments where like everyone is family. You know, you're raised by a community. Yeah. And that has its, you know, flip sides as well. There's loads of bloody gossip. you can't be anonymous there you know everyone knows you whereas back in London you can be, that's the beauty of it you can be famous or you can be anonymous of London? in London what made you come to it, what pulled you to the UK versus other countries? it's a funny one I guess there is something about there's a connection between the UK and India where you kind of feel it's abroad but you still feel it's at home London feels a lot like that I've never heard that before I guess there's a historic sort of connection It's an English speaking country to begin with.

53:21And I grew up studying, you know, I grew up in a Protestant school, which was founded by the British. So there was sort of ex-colonial this thing there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very much Indian. I don't like this whole thing of celebrating the Raj and celebrating colonialism and all that. I don't see why we need to be doing it. Years later, I think India has really found itself celebrating modern India. But that said, I think, you know, I grew up with singing hymns in school, understanding a lot about this culture. we'd see it online but I'd only been to England once I'd been to England for been to London for a week in 2000 and then 2005 I found myself moving here in this weird way knowing it's going to be for good most people would go to a three year degree and come back I was coming to Cambridge to study a law degree in 2005 and I knew when I got onto that plane that this is going to be for good weirdly weirdly I remember sitting on that plane coming by myself no family had to drop me I had some uncles and aunts here who were very gracious and hospitable and took me to Primark shopping and then drove me to Cambridge and I remember the first day I got to my college in Cambridge being like shit.

54:24Second morning, first day I was very excited. I had my own space. Back in Bombay I'd shared a room with my brother. Would be allowed into the kitchen certain times of the day as long as I'm not creating too much chaos. Here I had my own kitchen, negotiated my fridge space and kitchen space with the nine boys in my dorm. Second morning I bought a cycle, cycled all around Cambridge, came back, I was like shit. the next three years, this is all I'm going to see. My bubble had suddenly become so much smaller. Whereas in Bombay, it's bustling. There's so much excitement. There's so much energy. Suddenly this is too quiet and sleepy.

54:57So I struggled with that for a long time. I made some friends, but I did feel there was loneliness. I think that's when I sort of really took to cooking. And that was my... Cooking has always been my respite, my unwind, my sort of way of really engaging all senses into something and really focusing it's like meditation it's so meditative yeah um the what's the most interesting thing you did at cambridge or person you met i guess i mean there were loads of interesting people yeah at cambridge and i think again they tended to be more in the in the legal space i met some of my best friends over there some of them are doctors today some of them are doing biology and different things um most interesting thing i think for me it was it's really interesting because i i grew up in a vegetarian household in india so we would we would bring meat in once in a while if it was cooked outside even that was a bit of a loophole so the neighbors had made some really nice fish they'd send it over and we'd eat that and i somehow i had this curiosity for eating meat and fish mainly chicken and fish but never cooked meat at home today we do it back in india but at home we never cook meat so we and weirdly that point is like to buy meat you'd have to go to the butcher you watch it being slaughtered and you see all the animals gaucas is hanging around to go to buy fish you go to fishmonger the fishmonger would come with all his fish he'll be smelling and all that stuff so no package beautiful stuff so weirdly when i came to england it's the first time i saw pre-packaged vacuum packed meat and fish which allowed me to disassociate with that whole process and be able to cook some of this so i learned how to cook meat and fish from scratch reading books going to blogs there was no youtube youtube wasn't as yeah big as it was asking people questions so i actually learned everything i know about cooking meat and fish in my cambridge kitchen i would literally spend all weekend sometimes i just deep dive like okay today i want to learn how to make sushi and it was like being a kid in a candy store because back in india when i'd read a recipe book it's like you need strong flowers like what the hell is strong flower we have something called maida which is just random indian bread flour white bread flour or you have brown bread flour you have not even red flour it's just roti flour or naan flour you have two of these things and you couldn't get anything else back in those days this is like 20 years ago chocolate there was one brand of chocolate there was no dark chocolate no milk chocolate no 60 70 ingredients you apart from indian masalas you won't find anything else and you weren't cooking indian food there because there was someone else doing it well or you just go out to eat so suddenly i started exploring Chinese food I had Chinese friends and like Lee Kum Ki and I'd learn all these different sources this is amazing yeah yeah yeah I do Middle Eastern food I do I'd made friends from every single community so I actually go in and learn from them so weirdly I think my biggest learnings there were in food and culture as opposed to law which was functional I did very well yeah it was like this is work this is play what are some of the mental models from like Cambridge as a not specifically your law degree but like the caliber of is again rory went to cambridge but that kind of bigger level thinking of that that you apply to running framework you think it's a framework it's a framework which is makes you answer the question right dig deeper look at first principles look at second principles look at case like you know whether you're sort of studying case so you need to understand these kind of things it's like yeah what is my data but at the same time where's your It's being thorough with stuff.

58:25So, okay. So what's the difference? So let's link that to Hoppers. Give me one time. I want to let the Lewin come back. Yeah, yeah. Go for it. No, that's great. When you're dying for a piss, your brain just goes into meltdown. No, fucking loving this. They're bringing some food out shortly, but I just want to get into this framework. Yeah. I try and go off, learn from first principles. But you said, so it's basically, you said Cambridge is a framework. So you have first principles, second principles. Yeah. How would you apply that to Hoppers in business? like when you've used first and actually first sorry what's the difference between the first principle and second principle uh

59:00I think applying it to Hoppers would be, from a business point of view, you'd look at data, which is obviously important. But then you look at gut feeling. I mean, again, I guess it'll be hard to do a first principle. What is first principle? First principle for me is purpose. Yes. Okay. Going back to, okay, why do we do something? Yes. Yesterday I was having a chat to these guys and like, you know, I think they were like, let's do a lunch special. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then there was a little bit of argument about price point. I wanted to go really low ball price point. So I was like, 15 quid.

59:3615 quid for a full lunch with a hopper, with a curry, with a starter, with this thing. Only in shortage, right? Then I had someone else come by and say, can we make it 19 quid? And then I had someone else come by. I'll tell you. And then I had someone else come by and say, look, can we just do it across all our sites? I said, let's go down to, I guess this is my first principle. Why are we doing it? Right? we're doing it because we want people to come and lunch. Now, if you want people to come and lunch, there could be various problems you have. It could be people don't know you exist, which is my problem here.

1:00:10It's not a problem, but it's what we're trying to tackle over here. Shoreditch, they don't know we exist because it's very quiet, very hidden. It's not very hidden, but we aren't allowed on this building to put a lot of signage outside, so we can't shout about it, right? And Shoreditch has some great food and there's lots happening. And yes, if you've read hot dinners in the beginning or you've read a couple of things, then it's there, but we're not plastered all over. So it's a visibility issue. The second issue could be because there's a price point issue. It's like we'd love to come for lunch but it's too expensive.

1:00:36I don't think that's an issue. Third issue is we do not eat Indian food at lunch which you cannot solve because either you start doing salads at lunch which is it on brand? Is it not on brand? Maybe we can do something and do we shout about it or not? And I guess those are your three problems. It's like these are three completely distinct problems with completely distinct solutions. If you use a price point solution to tackle the last one you can just drive yourself down to like a five quid meal and eventually all you'll end up doing is the people who are already working in will spend five instead of 13 yeah and you'll have cannibalized yourself but the people who weren't coming in because you're doing indian food are not coming in anyway yeah yeah yeah i guess you've got to ask yourself your question first you've got to understand your problem or your issue yeah because most things start from a problem and issue yeah when you've understood your problem i guess that's your first principle then you ask yourself what the solution that matches that is.

1:01:26Don't confuse yourself because you have seen a deal on Instagram that worked well. Yeah. Or you've seen someone post about something that you feel you can copy. So there's a time and place for something and therefore you go down to this. I guess this is my structured brain working or my lawyer's brain working. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is fascinating. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So then we drilled down. I said, Shoreditch has the problem of not being visible. I don't think price is an issue because you can come here and have a 10 quid meal if you want. Sorry, just to... It's visibility. Visibility. price point price point or it's just the third thing is just the basically your product if your product is wrong there's just i do not eat indian food at lunch i don't want heavy food i don't want spicy food at lunch so if it's spicy food let's say for example if the problem was there's a perception of spicy food then maybe we can do marketing around look it doesn't have to be spicy there is food that is lighter if it's a perception about your food is too carb heavy and and um we want protein i'd be like look there are some great curries and maybe we can add a little bit of a salad or a stir fry to it which gives you the the right kind of thing but if i start doing like build your own salads here it's just off brand so that's where purpose falls into this so purpose is very important that's the purpose yes and you know purpose has already defined your brand and you know yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah but i think the first principle here is firstly identify your problem right like a first principle law would be case law as you kind of go down to okay what is the law what is the case law and then you kind of move on from there yeah and i think here you kind of say okay so what am I trying to tackle and that's where I really had to focus them and say okay Malibu my problem is we've been there 10 years we've been there seven seven years now six years now yeah so my problem there is not visibility and knowledge yes there might be a little bit of that to do because you're never visible to everyone but we are on google maps if you search Indian restaurants or you search top restaurants we'll come up on everything so SEO is there local businesses know about us and now if you start driving down price is it a price issue?

1:03:19Do you know it's a price issue? Has anyone told you has any data told you that people are not working in here because your 14 pound dosa is too expensive? I was like I do not agree because people are now paying 16 quid at Pret they're paying 20 quid for a salad somewhere with a drink and we're offering really good value so value has not been a problem. So find out what your problem is and deal with it because at my old sites each site is a different problem. If we're tackling lunch lunch is never big in an Indian restaurant. Yeah. No Indian restaurant will tell you that It's interesting. So Ogilvy used to, Rory had that for grads as a question, as a framework.

1:03:53It was how do you get, this is back in the early 2000s, how would you fill out a lunch service at an Indian restaurant? You know, notoriously. Yeah, very, very interesting. But the other thing which he says, which I love is that, one of his mental models is, what problem are we solving? Yeah. What problem are we solving really? And I think that goes to your point. Yeah, exactly. What are we actually fucking solving? It's not a price point issue. It's not a menu issue. Yeah, so what did you... Because what often happens in today's day, we've got so much information. You've got really tempting models.

1:04:29So like, you know, earlier in our conversation, I mentioned sometimes I go to a soft launch and see a restaurant where, oh my God, that was such an exciting, fun dinner. But it was a fun dinner in that moment. I do not, you kind of go away like, shit, I could have created a concept. you know this is really cool restaurant that's doing this has been live fire food and i was like i could do it um i mean it depends on where you go and eat it's like sometimes you just go like you know i like i go with my chef as i see live fire i see a live kitchen sitting around the kitchen i was like watching all that i was like we could maybe not hoppers but we could have easily created this concept shit i wish i could be the first one to do this yeah you know or you do like a grill concept you do something else or like i see a pizza concept i love pizza in my dream world I'd love to be doing pizza.

1:05:12Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, it's like, but then when you come back and you allow it to settle, it's one of those ideas that feels amazing, keeps you awake one night, but three nights later, it's like, I'm glad I didn't work on that anymore. Yes. You write it down, you have it in the back, maybe someday there'll be some sort of variation that you come back to. Yeah. So, it's very much that, and I think, you know, coming down to first principles, the issue is, there's so much noise out there that suddenly you see something that you were fed, A, the algorithm might have fed it to you and it makes it look much bigger than it is.

1:05:43It's like, oh my God, this little campaign that that competitor is doing has come to me in three different ways because it's you. It's not really that big. Second thing is, it'll come to you and you'll suddenly feel like, shit, that's so good. I need to do it myself. I was like, maybe it'd work for them. Even though they're in the same market, they overlap a lot, but they are trying to solve a different problem. They're a different brand. Let's go down to the basis of why we would do that thing here and how we would do it if we were to do it. A, I would not copy paste. B, if I was to do it, I would adapt and do it, but only if it made sense.

1:06:18And I think this is how my thinking has evolved. Yes. Where we really sit down and question. Don't be, you know, very often it's symptomatic or very often it's a solution that you have before you have a problem. Oh, yes. And then you've matched this wrong solution to the wrong problem. You created a problem because you want to use a solution. That's fucking genius. You know? yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah that's where we really broke it down and we said okay actually when we look even though it's called hoppers soho has a slightly different problem because there are not many people around for lunch anymore they're like they used to be malabon has a different problem although there are people out for lunch they're going to certain different restaurants or they're suddenly shifted to eating higher protein salad meals and things like that so farmer j's is busy salad project is busy uh king's cross maybe there's a visibility issue maybe there's something different and show that it's definitely visible so suddenly you realize that the symptom is the same my lunch is not busy the underlying cause of that is different and the solution is different because you need to match the cause and the solution and then trying to have one solution across all the like i.e build this out of bar it's very tempting that that's basically creating a problem out of a solution no if you say 15 quid menu yeah let's just do a 15 quid menu yeah it matches and it aligns with showditch and then the easy solution would be let's just do it across That's what I'm saying, yeah.

1:07:34But suddenly he's trying to solve a problem and that might create another problem because suddenly you have a value perception now. So you have a 15 quid menu in King's Cross where someone has already come in to eat 30 happily. He's now having that, so you've cannibalized your sale. But more importantly, that person's not going to come back at dinner because now they've eaten this for 15 quid. And they don't want to come back for dinner. Whereas in Shoreditch, I don't mind someone eating 15 because I'm not discounting value. It's something I never do. I'm saying all I'm doing is this is my generosity.

1:07:59I'm giving it to you at a really cheap price because all I want you to do is come and taste the food. I'm not doing it because I've suddenly realized 10 years on that I was charging too much and I'm suddenly giving you a discount. Because I wasn't charging. I'm always lower than market. So it's not that admission of, shit, I'm too expensive. Because once you go to Sports Direct and you buy shoes for half the price, you're never going to buy full price. I never shop. I shop at Sports Direct. But even if I see something at good value, full price, it's like, I'm just waiting for the discount. So interesting.

1:08:28What would you say? You've read the book, Soap for Acid Heat. what would you say the marketing principle like that equivalent is marketing to fill your restaurants so i thought i know you've talked about visibility as one thing but like the four maybe levers that you can pull or they can sort of amalgamate together and you actually get bums on seats and you you build a restaurant group for like 10 years you know uh maybe i'm just a one trick pony man maybe i've just done one it worked well i don't know that's my insecurity talking but I think it's sort of, there's no perfect formula. Yeah. I think it comes down to that same thing of you've got to make it personal.

1:09:06Yeah. Because a restaurant is much more than food. Food, I've always said, is just the language. The conversation is how you make people feel. We bring people in. Oh, wait, that's so good. Hang on. So food is the language. Food is a language and you could be speaking any language. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the conversation is something that you can't necessarily determine. Yes. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can put the language in place. You can have the circumstances in place. But that conversation is something that's going to be hyper-personal to each person who comes to eat. Yeah. And all you do is create a beautiful framework around it and create the environment.

1:09:41So you can't have a conversation on a noisy train where you're moving back and forth. Yeah. But you can have a conversation. I'm not saying physically. Like, we can have noisy spaces. Yes, of course. conversation metaphorically speaking is what we are here to create because you might not remember the language but you'll remember a conversation so you speak five languages you have a really deep conversation with someone i ask you five years later do you remember what language you spoke that conversation chances you won't you may you remember how you feel you might remember you ate a bone marrow at my restaurant but more importantly you'll remember how i made you feel that day and that is the collection of whether the lighting fell well on your face you felt confident because the other person looked good did your life did your wife look slightly prettier than she normally is that made you both open up to each other did your date go really well because the music was right level where it was like engaging you to this thing was the music too fast so you were chewing too fast was it a little cold so even though the food was warm and your conversation was great secretly you need to go for piss five times so you're like feeling cold and you know sort of your hands are clammy so there's obviously the physical stuff you can do to create that but then there is a real soul of a restaurant which only comes from a restaurant from a good restaurant uh steer stirring the you know steering the ship which he then passes he or she passes on to the team and that is where culture is the most important thing you know danny's old 51 percenter thing uh 51 percenter so in setting the table danny says he's got 51 percenters it's like you can have the perfect cv it's a hiring construct so that you can have the perfect cv yeah which only gets you to 49 percent 51 percent is how you make my team feel when you come in for an interview and how you make us feel when you come in for that trial shift so it's something we've always imbibed and something we've always used yes not perfectly sometimes you get it wrong yeah we're trying to sort of hone that skill and um that's about bringing in right people who fit in your culture and all that stuff do you get those things right that the marketing will kind of take care of itself no so then he had this interesting thing when i met him for breakfast one morning that you met danny mayer we met i met him many times oh really i didn't realize that yeah that was my my highlight was him serving him for the first time in hopper soho in year one year two of opening oh wow richard wines brought him in and then we became good friends afterwards he's amazing videos for my team and i hold him in huge respect and on and he's one of those few heroes that you know some of the questions you were asking him no so this was one of those like you know we might have asked like i think it was a conversation he said I've got this interesting theory on 51%.

1:12:09So I've used it in the hiring context. And this is in 2016 or 17. So I've got the 51 % theory, which I've applied to spaces, to restaurants and to this whole Instagram culture. Anything you can take a picture of is only 49%. So anything I can take my phone out and capture on my phone is 49%. 51 % is something you can never capture. and that is the soul and I truly, genuinely believe. We've had copycats along the way. We've had people leaving us and joining competitors or opening their own spaces. They will never be able to create. I think also, as an insecure restauranteur, it also gives you that sense of security to know that, look, at the end of the day, you play this invisible role behind in controlling, guarding, directing culture.

1:13:01The word insecurity has bubble up a lot and I think creatives, great creatives, insecure like what are some of the insecurities that you're currently even now we're 10 years well 11 years now long that you're still fucking grappling with what's imposter syndrome all the time again someone who studied law come in here uh i still sort of pinch myself i'm still as excited if not more excited about being in this industry so even if you get a junior chef come in you know and sit on a table i will go up to the table i'll start chatting to them asking them about life because everyone's got a different experience and i still remember the day when i was a lawyer and I'd find any excuse to get into a kitchen or get into a restaurant, talk to the restauranteur, talk to the manager, talk to a chef, you know?

1:13:41Yeah. So for me, imposter syndrome kicks its head out. What about the dance between being hyper-competitive but actually sticking to you and your purpose? Yeah, I think sticking to the purpose is a system you create to not be astray. Like I said, you can be out there and you can see a restaurant that's done really well. You kind of part of the future. Do you have this right now? Do you have this as like your... We've got a lot of it written down. We've created a frame. Like almost like the constitution. What are some of those? So we've been working through that. Like kindness is a big part of it.

1:14:14Making it personal is a big part of it. The sort of what, why, how is a big part of it. Sort of the big purpose statement, mission statement, all that stuff is sort of now got codified to an extent. But again, that evolves retirement. That's what I thought the Tonys did amazingly well, was how they detailed that. That's how you grow to that level and still keep that, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We've got, I think, some food arriving. Yes. I think... About time, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry, we opened too early. We decided I chatted too early. It's all good. Now we're sort of firing up.

1:14:45But I'd love to know what the... Because I was in Thailand with Lukey Farrell. You know, he's a fucking legend. I basically said to him, I was like, bro, like, take me off piste. I want to go to all the, like... He's the man. He's the man for that, right? And he said, and I think it was a beautiful way of putting it, I think food is culture, culture is food. But he said the best way to understand a culture without either going to a country or speaking their language is food. Like food is almost the gateway to a culture and a society's soul, right? And I know with your different restaurants, there's, you know, here's a mix of like, every restaurant's kind of slightly different.

1:15:27Here's India and Sri Lankan, that kind of, it was southern indians sorry yeah like what once the dishes arrive but i'd love to maybe beforehand like what are some of the across india like how are how does it differ in terms of the way they view the world like obviously yeah you know again we're a small country but the way northerners and southerners think there's a lot of similarities there's a lot of differences like how southern india difference are other parts i mean it's it's as different as say poland to England. In fact, I'd say even more. Really? I'd say that the diversity across India, north, south, east, west, even every 200 kilometers is often more than different European countries.

1:16:04Wow. It is, you know, you can take like nowhere to Spain. The differences between them are, you know, probably seen across south India from one side to the other. Whereas if you go south to north, you won't even recognize the people, the language, the culture, the diet is all totally different like think about india is huge it's almost a continent that's why you call it i appreciate and then you have sri lanka which is a totally different island which for years i thought was only this sort of competitor cricketing nation but then when i went and discovered it for the first time and had friends from there i think um i think that's where i really learned that look sri lanka is this whole has an identity of itself it's an incredible melting pot of different cultures and backgrounds yeah my one of my best mates from uni pradeep is is sri lankan i mean I always say it's like a bite-sized version of India.

1:16:53In fact, you know, being Indian, I'm allowed to say this. Yes, of course. If someone comes to me and says, oh, I'm going to India for the first time, I said, okay, how long do you have? If they say I have a week, I said, cancel your ticket, go to Sri Lanka instead. Because chances are you go to India, you'll try to do north, south, east, west, and you have this FOMO, it's like, I'll do Agra, I'll do Delhi. You'll get a little taster of everything. What's the best things to do in Sri Lanka then, like if you're there for a week? It's incredible, man. It's like the diversity of stuff you can do. You can be surfing one morning on the most incredible waves.

1:17:23You could be doing a safari in the afternoon. You could be steeped in sort of Dutch culture in the afternoon. Does the Dutch colonize Sri Lanka? Dutch colonize Sri Lanka, British colonize Sri Lanka. So they've got lots of those influences. Wow, interesting. And then you could be in a bustling city, which I think Colombo is such an underrated city. It is one of the best international cities in that region. It's not got the... Why is it so underrated then? I don't know. Most people land there and fly through. I just spoke to someone yesterday and she was like, oh, you know, this is the first time I stopped in Colombo and actually really enjoyed it.

1:17:54Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a very international city. Yeah. It's a very, like, you know, it's developing. It's not developed as fast as many of the Indian cities, but Indian cities are chaotic because the population is mad and they're often just trying to keep up with the population. You'll have a great time in Bangalore if you get from one place to the other. You love Bombay, but getting under the skin is, you know, genuinely overwhelming for a first-timer. Yeah. Delhi can be, it's gorgeous, it's beautiful, it's got this thing, but it's got pollution issues, it's got people. If you've got time, India is phenomenal.

1:18:24Do a month, but just do in the north. Just do the south. Really get under the sort of skin of the country, because that's where you really begin to enjoy it. Whereas if you've got a week, I think you can literally travel across Sri Lanka. There's very less impediment to sort of getting, you won't get under the skin of it, but you'll have a really good time and a seamless time. You don't have to bargain. You don't have to watch over your shoulders. Crime is much less. Streets are cleaner. Roads are much better. And it's a smaller country. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've always suggested Sri Lanka as an introduction to the region.

1:18:57Yes. And then go dive deeper into India. Interesting. What's the... So with the traditional arcane, admittedly, but traditional sort of Indian curry house that the UK, which now is being rightfully and happily changed for people introducing us to different types of cuisine. But how is that not necessarily a wrong representation of the culture? Are those Indian curry houses, are they amalgamations in different parts of India? So Indian curry houses, using a very broad brush term for the word curry house, as it's sort of generally... Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm trying to say. Yeah, yeah, as in the broad cross.

1:19:41He's tended to be people from Bangladesh. Yes. Particularly from a city called Silhet, who came over years ago. I don't know, it must have been an entrepreneur. They definitely have a very strong entrepreneurial spirit and they have a spirit of community because, again, I don't know the history to it, but few of them came over, then they brought the rest of the village along and weirdly, most of these curry houses were run by people from Silhet. And then they had second generation. By now, it's sort of third or fourth generation. Is it like a big city, smooth city? I don't know it. I've gone into Bangladesh, but again, it's the city that most of the people have come from.

1:20:14I think it's like second, third city after Dhaka, which is the capital. So weirdly, was people from here, and again, hats off to them because they have an entrepreneurial culture. They probably realized at the time, it's a bit like now. Today, if I was to sell butter chicken, I'd probably do twice the sales. If I did a typical North Indian menu, maybe it wouldn't resonate with my purpose at all. but from a financial point of view I do much better than doing what I do today because I think there's just less of an education piece there's less of a barrier to entry today I've got to educate first when a person reads my menu for 15 minutes they're just struck as to what is what even 10 years on so I've got to then have a smart way to sit and educate you whereas if I had a black dal yellow dal butter chicken and just worked on making sure they're slightly different or tasted really good and served in good you know plates in a fancy restaurant I probably it'll be an easier a much easier way to get in.

1:21:06So for that reason, I think maybe these guys realised that, look, Indian food was the way instead of Bangladeshi. So entrepreneurially hustled, started, built it, tweaked it to the English palate. Maybe the sweetness of a karma came in there. Maybe there were certain other things that sort of lent themselves well to how the locals would perceive it. And I think they sort of picked up and I guess it got busy. this thing and I think slowly over time these are people who didn't inherently come from there now I don't use the word authenticity because I think it's a bit of a nothing word yeah right what is authentic yes because we might come from the same place your grandma cooks something one way I mine cook something different way yeah which one is authentic yeah authentic for me is an intention so maybe the intention at that point was not to represent Indian culture in the right way but was to create a menu that was unique with Indian influences, presented in a somewhat sort of ethnic way with sort of all those typical music and the fanfare and clothes and the tropes that you have.

1:22:12And then over time, maybe it was a consumer who started calling it an Indian curry house. So I don't know what it was, but maybe... I love looking at the archaeology and anthropology of food. But all of it, yeah, it has that journey, right? So I think what they did, and I don't for once knock it, I don't think there's ever sort of, I'm so happy that people are, I know there are lots of people out there who are now wearing India on the, you know, as a badge of honor. Earlier just happened to be brown. Today suddenly found themselves loads of commentators in this market, chefs commentators in this market who had nothing to do with Indian food in the past.

1:22:46And then sort of now suddenly becoming big voices. For me personally, there's such a big market to educate. We feed 6 ,500 people a week, and my stats show that at least 70 % to 80 % of those people are new customers every week. New guests every week. After 10 years, the volume. So this just shows you the number of people that are in this market. It's not a tiny market like Bombay or Delhi. Not even Delhi, but you look at small cities. Bring it on. Yeah, bring it out. We can now start exploring. The interesting thing there is what these guys did from an Indian perspective. from a British perspective they gave you new food that thanks Raghul thank you mate that looks incredible I'll tell you all about that dish once I'm once so I don't lose my train yeah yeah yeah but from a from a English point of view they gave you new food from their point of view they created a new business and they used certain influences to do something well and I think what it did in the long run was educate a market to a certain kind of food which nobody else would have been able to educate If I had come and opened this kind of restaurant back in the day when the first Bangladeshi restaurant opened, we wouldn't have had a single guest in because no one knew about it.

1:23:58So sometimes people are like, you know, they'll be quick to criticize a Jamie or a Tom for writing an Indian recipe. I was like, I do not care, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If their restaurant, if their recipe is not the same as mine, doesn't make it less authentic, fine. It might show laziness, not on their part, but I'm saying if a British recipe writer or chef is writing a recipe on Indian food, if it's badly written, it's just laziness. I could be lazy as well. But writing a recipe from a region, I don't know. But just because I'm brown doesn't make it any more authentic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think the beauty is someone like Jamie, someone like Tom is probably able to reach a segment of the market that might not listen to me.

1:24:35And I'm being realistic about this. It increases the total dresser market. Once they've watched their recipes, it might not be close to what my recipe is. They might teach you how to make a roti in a totally different way. Instead of scoffing at it and writing notes and posting things about, oh my God, that was inauthentic. That's all BS, man. I was like, I would much rather whoever it is sitting in, you know, far off reaches of the country, who doesn't know who I am, doesn't come to London, but knows Jamie, respects Jamie, tries this recipe out because once they've had a taste, chances are tomorrow they'll say, I enjoyed that.

1:25:07Let me find more Indians. Somewhere down the line, three layers down, they might find my book. Come to me. Come eat my restaurant. So it's all a discovery process. And that's exactly what the Bangladeshi restaurants did. they still have a place in today's market because there are still people who enjoy a curry house. Yes. Right? My kids still go to Pizza Express. Now, I've got nothing against Pizza Express, but there are hundreds of pizzas much bigger than them, much better than them. I personally don't eat at Pizza Express. My wife loves it because of nostalgia. Yes, I love, I say, I, yeah. If you've grown up here, you love it.

1:25:37Now, why do you love it? There are hundreds of pizzas that are better. Well, so there's a, Seth Godin's got a theory on this, which is why does, um, there's a, there's a heuristic, a behavioral science heuristic on this. which is why is, we'll crack on with these, which is why is Heinz ketchup over everything else? 100%. It's basically just purely because it brings back memories of childhood because ketchup often meant a happy. If you're having ketchup as a kid, it means you're usually probably having like, you know, naughty quote-unquote food. Again, that's a vacuous claim. No such thing as naughty food.

1:26:08But it brings back that nostalgia. And now if you give me any other fucking ketchup, and that's what I think Pizza Express is. I don't think it just, I remember going to kids' parties, having the hats, the colouring. It reminded me of half-term, you know, school holidays. And with my kids, you know, I make pizza at home more than I make most things. Oh, wow. They enjoy the pizza, but my kids still love Pizza Express. Why? Because it's become their thing with their mum. So Sue will take them when I'm travelling or when she knows that I'm not part of that thing. We'll go to a lot of restaurants together.

1:26:34But when we go to Pizza Express, it's all about her going with them. So suddenly, that same nostalgia has carried on to them. Yes. They're like, now this is their date night with their mum. So it's so special to them. So it's a great branding thing. hats off to Pizza Express but they're not doing the best pizza and I think this is important to understand that you know you can go up your ass about food I'm serving the most authentic I'm serving the best that's BS man you're creating what I said earlier you're creating spaces you're creating opportunities for a conversation you have to be realistic about that food is a language Pizza Express the pizza Pizza Express is a language for that communication my wife and my kids have this will be the language for what you do discovery will make the conversation more exciting.

1:27:18If I give you something new, it's going to make the conversation more exciting. If I give you something consistent, it's going to make the conversation more consistent because you're not then worrying about oh, this doesn't taste the same and suddenly you're distracted. You're coming there. Why do people go to certain restaurants that do average food, that serve good wine and serve good food? It's because, or average food because they actually want, you know, I used to work with lawyers and they used to go to, I won't name restaurants but in the city there's certain restaurants that do not do great food have a very consistent wine list and they have certain things mainly steaks these guys love those restaurants they won't go to anything exciting because they want to have that conversation they want a setting which makes them feel comfortable makes them feel welcome where they know the wine list they recognize the wines they can quickly order off that list and look knowledgeable they want a steak because they know what they want to eat they've kind of prepared themselves to come in it's a lot of mental life exactly because you can use the load like this is about discovery guests who come in are coming to discover something or connect to nostalgia or about to travel to Sri Lanka.

1:28:17So we serve a different purpose. And if you give them that, then their conversation becomes... I love... Let's jump in on these. Let's jump in. So, and then just tell me, again, the archaeology and anthropology of this dish, because this looks fucking... So that is a brand new dish. These two are dishes that are only in Hopper Shoreditch. Yep. So I've got three elements here. And this basically represents an incredible day we spent in the city called Madurai. Yeah. So just what it is. So you've got a nool paratha, which is like a thready paratha. Lovely. It's all shredded up. You've then got an omelette with crab in it.

1:28:53So that's your omelette. I'm going to serve you some. So let me get you the paratha. Dan, may I turn the music on? Because I'm conscious that guests have walked into the restaurant. I don't want them to have anything but the experience we need. Guys, let's get the music on, please. Don't make it too loud, but turn the music on. It won't be, it'll be fine. Sorry? We won't be, it won't be picked up on this. Hopefully not, yeah. It looks gorgeous. So that's the omelette. And then that is a lovely soft-shell crab, just for crunch, for texture, and a little more crabbiness. Now, the idea there was, we spent a day in Madurai, we went in the morning to this little mess on the street, like off a highway.

1:29:34We had these ladies deep-frying omelettes, just plain omelettes with onions and like masala omelette. then we had these this crab curry alongside that which was intense and flavorful and then night we went and had a roti and i kind of wanted to bring all three i didn't have space for three dishes on my new menu so how do you bring them together and we then came up with this dish that has all three so we've kind of again it's not an element it's not about deconstructing it's not about like overly engineering but genuinely this represented that day to me so there's there's a sense of authenticity or wanting to represent an experience of my life I want to share with guests who walk in here and I think it works yeah it does absolutely I think it works that is a chili cheese dosa this is the one dish actually let me go and get you some chutneys with that so no matter what diet I'm on if I'm walking past this dish in the in the kitchen or at a table if I'm eating with someone you'll see I'll avoid having that because I want to cut carbs right now I want to go to the gym after I'm done with this but that I'm gonna have to have a dip off.

1:30:35So that's chilli cheese in there. So you've got melted cheese, you've got body, you've got green chillies. We did this dish about five years ago and I think this has been one of my favourite dishes on the menu. So just have that dip into chutneys or you can dip into a curry. Do you pull it with hands? You know, you're talking about anthropology of food. I think the beauty about, again, something we've come to represent and show is that we also stand for regions of India and Sri Lanka. And I think, you know, that dosa is totally different from this dosa. They're made from different batters. So it's like showing people that bread is not just bread.

1:31:10So we've come to play this role where without being too over the top, we're also educating and giving people a taster of different places from the region we represent. So that's from Bangalore where you have something called, this is a bene dosa, so it's actually practically fried in butter. It's a bit thicker than that dosa which is more of a Tamil dosa. And then we've just take it over the top, we've stuffed it with a pulled lamb and some pickles and herbs. Mate, it looks fun. So we've got to just dig into that. Dig in. It's absolutely stunning. Yeah, we used to, when I was at that peanut butter company, we used to go to...

1:31:46Manny's. What do you say? Manny's. I'll send you some, mate. It's insane. Yeah, we had a lot of the team, you know, nights out. Not the one in Marlborough. Yeah. It was just so good. In that in-between COVID period. Do you know what I mean? Mm. Mm. Where? Malibu. Hoppers? Hoppers, yeah. Oh, cool. It's so good. How do you think about the architecture of the different cities? Yeah. And then applying that to the restaurants to get a unique vibe so people feel that they're almost like to help stoke that conversation, as you said. Are you talking about deco or food or what? So like as you go to a city, you'll try, you know, um, um, try the food, bring it on the menu.

1:32:41When you're doing like southern, southern India, like how do you think about, because you know, the one in Soho is very different. I think it's again the beauty of social media and YouTube and all that kind of stuff today. That the world's a lot flatter. Yeah. and you know I have this ma 'am so in a way research feels easier but there's nothing like you know I know enough people who will find dishes on Instagram from restaurants around the world and like send it to chefs and be like okay fine let's try and create this let's do that this will go viral just for the look of it that's good no? there's nothing quite like getting to a place immersing yourself in the culture the amount you learn you know as you spoke about I mean, he runs some of the best Thai restaurants here, but practically living there.

1:33:31But then he gets his team over there. And I meet that team and they're so enthused every time they come back. Because, you know, we have had over the last 10 years, every year I've taken some members of my team over. When I see those people come back, it's a sea change in the way they think, they develop, they behave, they realize what they're representing. So we take everyone from like, from bar to front, front of house to kitchen. We're going nine of us right now. Amazing. And I think that's really essential. What's the art of a great research trip? Just have fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you don't have fun, you're not gonna do this thing.

1:34:06And I think, again, the beauty and the luck of it is that now because of social media, I think you can put one post out there saying we're going, and again, the world is so interconnected that back in the day with Lonely Planet or like having to email people and hook things up, you find that you have to do a lot more work. Whereas today, again, we're in a position where you put it out there, you'd have 20 people, then you quickly plan your itinerary. I've gone to cities I've never known and had the best recommendations. I guess that's also part of karma. You do a lot of free recipes for people, then you get back that goodwill when you need it most.

1:34:39So that research trip is really important. And we try and, again, coming back to what we bring back, I think, again, over the years, it's like sharpening a pencil. Back in the day, you had this blunt pencil where you'd just draw everything. Today, we've gotten a lot sharper, We know certain things will work and certain will not. Now there are two questions to that. One is, does it fit within my menu? Obviously, chances are that a lot of the stuff that we see around that region, whether it's South India or Sri Lanka, would arguably fit on my menu because that's the region we represent. And then there's a second question as to operationally, is it going to work or not?

1:35:14Suddenly, if I load the tawa or the plancha with two more dishes because I've eaten something exciting, it's going to break him and service him, which means that consistency-wise you're not going to get something. So you've got to think about the operational impacts of dishes as well. Or if you really like something, do you take something else off? We've had seven new dishes on the menu here which we don't have anywhere else. Because I think we've now been, a lot of our team has been eight, nine, ten years here. My exec chef and I have been, he's been with me from day minus three months. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:35:46And both of us have had so much we wanted to express over the years. We've kind of really found our voice. We've found ourselves in hoppers. and I think we wanted to really represent those dishes and suddenly we say, okay, here's a space and Shoreditch was that space to come up with some of this creative stuff and the beauty is that all the feedback is like this. None of these dishes feel out of place on the menu. They feel very hoppers but also like evolve and exciting and new and I think that's why we've had such a great reception both in the press and with the public. What I love and I think creativity is an expression of self, right?

1:36:21100%. It really is and it's like when you're telling me you're detailing that wonderful day of you you know having this what's that called like a the omelet on the side streets and then the crap and it's just like that is carrot in a dish you know that is your trip in a dish 100 again making it personal means there needs to be a little bit of you yes in everything there needs to be the test for me the simplest test how does right because i write i write a newsletter yeah weekly like yeah i've done posted six years every week what's it's lessons from the podcast but it's what no what do you send it out of you need to subscribe to it beehive yeah yeah yeah it's an email i'll definitely sign up yeah yeah yeah so it's like but again it's like my inspiration from like my favorite authors so like tom wolf sure it's very esoteric and kind of irreverent like it'll be a lot of people unsubscribe but the people who fucking love it love it sure but i think writing helps the expression of self sure what are the similarities and differences of writing and cooking in terms of you expressing yourself I think this is what I love about cooking because what is cooking?

1:37:23This yesterday was a bag of lentils, was a little packet of fenugreek, was two packets of cheese, was a bunch of different spices. And from that, it's turned into this. How? There's been human intervention to create that. that human intervention by virtue of time, effort, knowledge, background, skill, passion is all in this dish. That's why when you look at a dish, it's often, you know, the GP might be 30%, but then the staff court, people only stop at GP's restaurant, they stop at like, oh, what's my GP on a dish? It's like a GP doesn't stop at what the dish, what the raw ingredients costed. Your profit, your cost to the dish should also be the human intervention, which is your labor cost.

1:38:09so you know i was having a chat with someone else the other day like wow that must be really good gp because all it is is like fermented lentils and rice and you're charging five quid for it i said but i'm creating beautiful spaces i'm hiring some of the best staff i'm spending a lot of time training them i'm putting four staff on the floor instead of two and i'm getting some of the best chefs to make it to a standard that's consistent and of a very high level now all that costs money i might save money on an ingredient but i put money on staff cost and i think all that should be looked at together because that staff cost is also a passion the your restaurant's filling up so i want to ask two more things i'm gonna wrap this up sorry man i'm just we can go on no apology go on we will go on um is so jks your your wife is one of the co-founders she's the s in the jks yes yeah yeah what's the if you could boil down like why would you say they're so prolific yeah as a group even lukey was sort of detailing some things but i'd love to know from like yeah from your perspective like why are they so important in in the in the evolution of london as one of the greatest food cities in the world like what's that i think with the three of them yes and that boils down to a lot of the a lot of us as partners and family and everyone else is it comes from a place of genuine passion yes it's not and and again the beauty that they have is between the three of them they bring three very different skill sets to the indian restaurants and then the way they partner with people and I very much treat myself as a partner for Hoppers is I will give you the Hoppers story so for instance you plug into the JKS infrastructure and I think depending on where you are in your journey you will take as much as you need or you know as required operationally so back in the day there was a lot of like you know 10 years ago I took a lot of marketing assistance I took commercial assistance I took ops assistance then slowly we built our own people and we kind of spun off ourselves but they allow creative people to do a restaurant is often the most successful restaurants you'll find have a partnership between someone who's very commercial and someone who's quite creative that might be a chef or might be a front of house person who has a vision like someone like jeremy and then you have the commercial side of things and when that goes wrong then you have the fights and often that goes wrong when there's pe involved because then there's like the only commercial there's one bigger partner in but when you're equally weighted or somewhat equally weighted and each one respects the other which there is a lot of over here like there's a respect for creative and there's a respect for commercial so when we sit in a board meeting there's a great respect for knowledge for background for for commercial for you know what jks is suggesting but we've been independent for a long long time commercial for operationally from a food perspective front of house perspective even marketing perspective we've taken help commercially we're getting much more independent now as we've grown and they've grown.

1:40:56So I think the beauty is, you know, it's the same with Ber and Jack. Ber and Jack maybe leverages off certain different aspects. So when you say the infrastructure, how did they build that? Was that just over time? Was it like... I think they built it with the first Indian restaurant. This is Trishna. Yes. And there was Gymkhana. Yeah. And then two Indian restaurants that were built, owned, operated solely by three of them and teams around them. They said, look, we've got this, we've got these really good teams. now let's utilize these teams to also assist other people with like minded sort of philosophy and that's where you know James Lowe came in for Lyles where Bubble Dogs came in for Bubble Dogs Kitchen Table and then you know there was the Bao family that came in there was Bear and Jack so these are people who are aligned fundamentally on certain things and then needing different levels of like Bao is now independent because they got to a point where they could be fully independent and they didn't really need them and I think JKS realized that okay our resources now I better spend focusing on Indian.

1:41:53Similar with the pubs. Dom is a fantastic publican. You know, lovely, lovely guy. He's built some really cool stuff. That was a shorter journey. But he joined them when he needed some support commercially and he needed some support creatively. We gave the support, quickly realized, okay, now he's running it all himself. That's been off. So it's like an incubator of sorts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then you can kind of hold their hand as long as you want and as far as you want. And I think in that sense, they're very gracious. They're very savvy operators. And I think that beauty of that mix between Sue who is very operationally, she's got a great instinct for human beings.

1:42:26Joe is commercially one of the smartest guys I know. And then Karam is creative for the Indian side, but he also has a good sense of, you know, what's hot in the market, what will work, what not across the board in sort of finding the partners initially, then his involvement can be different in different. You know, he's mainly involved with the Indians. So I think those three work really well and then kind of, you know, then it's, And I think that's where that lovely synergy of three people bringing really different things to the table. But then because they're family also, they might fight with each other and I might fight with them as well.

1:42:55But then at the end of the day, it's all cool when you're... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, as Lukey was saying, they're incredibly important for everything that's going on in London and really driving that catalyst. Purely selfish here, what are some of your favourite books? Favourite books? I think Grinding It Out, Ray Kroc, The McDonald's Story. You read it? No, no, I've never read that. The movie, the founder. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Again, it's got 10 % of what the book actually had. That was a book that was really... What's the other 90 % that wasn't in the film? I mean, there's lots. It's like the little stories and getting inside.

1:43:26But it's the same as, you know, films are always very superficial. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that, setting the table, obviously, we've discussed many times. Yes. A really good book. Bruce Springsteen, huge character in my life. I love him. I look up to him. Why is he such a big character? I just think, I think there's, you know, sometimes artists... Like, I love music. I love rock music. I grew up, he was a soundtrack of my life. There's an element of nostalgia, a bit like Pizza Express. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My kids have grown up listening to him. I think what he stands for is very important, so I resonate with his why.

1:43:56What's his why? I think he's just, you know, he puts himself behind what he does. He makes it personal. He's the one guy at 76. He's playing concerts for, like, an hour longer than people who are, like, freaking 25. You know, he's not, he's huge, he's larger than life, but he's not a diva. He's there because he's giving. He's like, the talk about... giving, giving, giving. We want to give ourselves. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He sings for the common man and he knows that journey. He's not a common man, but he knows the journey. He's very honest about everything he says. At least, superficial. And again, there's no reason to believe that that's not true behind the scenes.

1:44:28So, I mean, Springsteen's big, born to run, great autobiography. Also sort of shows you the insides of the journey of someone you came to respect. Yeah. And you only see a superficial side too.

1:44:42What else? What else am I reading at the moment? I read I tend to read more sort of the self-help nonfiction kind of books I don't read as much fiction as I want to such as just depending on what the flavor of the month is I listen to a lot of books yeah yeah yeah mate but your restaurants filling up that's gonna be good

1:45:06hey guys thank you so so much for watching this video hope you're loving the episode I appreciate a very small yet significant favor por favor please Please may you click the subscribe button, get in the comments, tell me what you think about the episode, tell me what you think we did on the show. It may not seem much, but it really helps us grow and helps us get bigger guests. Thank you so much.