Ivan Ramen: New York's Best Ramen Restaurant, Conquering Tokyo, Heartbreak, Japanese Literature & Art

36:36The gaijin card is, fuck off pal, I'm not doing it. So every once in a while you just, you know. But like I said, when I was a young man in Japan, I'd say I did that all the time. Yes. And when I pissed people off. And when I moved back to Japan as a grown man, I think I sort of said to myself, you know, that's not really cool. You want to live in Japan. You got to follow the rules. You can't just ignore things. You have to. So, you know, nowadays, I would say I break the rules, you know, 5 % of the time or less. I mean, I really don't. Just every once in a while, you know, there's all kinds of rules.

37:14I mean, you know, when I. So what would be some of those? When I opened Ivan Ramen, I worked in this one street. and then everybody chipped in. We had to pay a fee every month to pay for like the electricity on this street that all the stores were on and for the sewage and the garbage removal and whatnot. And once a month, everybody would meet on a Wednesday afternoon. Everybody was closed on Wednesdays and once a month, everybody would meet on Wednesdays and you'd count money and go over the receipts and everything and then you'd cook a meal together and have a beer. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

37:45So super collected. So I went to the first one and I said, This is my first and my last meeting. I will never, ever come again. They said, I have a young family. I am off one day a week. I work really hard. And the last people I want to see are you. So enough personal. Don't ever expect to see me again. I will never come again. I never went again. I went once. Yeah, I got along with those people. Great. We were really close. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I just said, you know, missing a day off once a month to be with your lot is crazy. That just doesn't make any sense to me. I'm so sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

38:17I just never went. so and if I was Japanese it probably would have caused more trouble but as American they probably just said well well you know what do you want he's just an American so and but I kind of think it's fair because I think people even nowadays will sometimes say well you know he's just a he's just a gaijin what do you want and he doesn't understand and sometimes I'm like you're right yeah don't understand so I don't get it you your culture is way too sophisticated for me I can't possibly understand yeah so no it's interesting i remember like even the when you like you go for a cigarette they've got them in that little boxed off thing whereas here you can just go smoke wherever and i was like that to me was just yeah but until 10 years ago people smoked in family restaurants with little babies sitting next to them so really that's the new that's the new thing it's 10 15 years maybe 20 i don't know i mean when i lived there when i opened ivan ramen everybody smoked everywhere interesting you could smoke on the trains in the train platform yeah yeah yeah smoke probably when i first went there you smoked on the trains and and everything so it's but same same i mean the whole world i mean you're just young i mean yeah yeah yeah when i was a kid you go to the movie theater you could smoke in the movie theater yeah yeah yeah it's just it's just what how old were you when you first went there uh 25 25 yeah and how else would you think the the i think i read some of you say it's changing like how is it changing for the better how's it changed you for the worst um for the best well i mean well i mean it's it's become you know japan's become really international and it's you know it's it's a little disappointing that you know it's harder to get a hotel room or it's harder to the plane tickets gotten a little more expensive or it's harder to get into some restaurants but i actually really like how international tokyo has become i mean it's it's when i went there in 2003 it was still not i mean And we used to talk about how Tokyo was just not an international city.

40:11I mean, nothing like London or New York. It was just, there was very few foreigners. There were foreigners, but nothing like now. There was no good wine. There was no good cheese. There was no, you know, there weren't very many good, there weren't good Italian and French restaurants. And now there's great, all of that. Probably the natural wine scene in Tokyo is as good as it is in Sydney. You know, it's really, really strong. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's guys who go to Italy, learn to make pizza. They come home, they make great pizza. If you like Neapolitan, I don't. But there's people, the best Neapolitan pizza, the pizziolas are all in Japan now.

40:50Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because they go train in Naples. What kind of pizza do you like? What's your, especially being in New York? I'm a New York pizza guy. I like a crispy, chewy pie. Have you had crisp pizza whilst you've been there? I had. You know, I wanted to go and I just realized it looked like, I mean maybe sometime in a couple of years you can go it doesn't look like it's a place you can just go to and there's no I checked there's no reservations for a month or more oh really even though because they just lit show up in the new pub yeah there's nothing it's booked out forever so I didn't yeah no that's really and it doesn't look like they said something about walk-ins but I don't know anyway I didn't bother yeah yeah next time I'll try it I mean I'm a I'm a big pizza nut I mean it's really it's probably my favourite thing really yeah so what's some of your favourite places in New York um I love Finney.

41:36I love Scars, which is my partner in Vegas. They're our neighbors in Vegas. I love a new spot called Series, which is really, really good. I love, what else do I love? Leigh Industry, Mama's 2 is really, really good. And then Ratza, which in my opinion is maybe the best. Ratza. Is in Jersey City. Yep. Just get on the path. It's three stops and it's right there. it's the best one and it's a great restaurant is that because what i found when i went to new york there's all these different shades and textures of people just different types of pizzas right um like what is the what is the difference by well because the shops i mentioned are all uh 48 uh 72 hour doughs right they're all cold rise they're all more they're all uh much more sophisticated complex doughs uh at a cheaper pizzeria in new york is there sugar and then olive oil in the dough it's it's not as complex i mean i've become very i'm terribly spoiled i i can't i can't just walk into a pizzeria and eat pizza anymore i don't like it yeah i don't need it i'd love to know well what you think of crisp when you do eventually get it it's super there's this weird wonderfulness to it yeah the bubbly um crust it's insane no i really want to run i i actually did a little bit of a deep dive on all the new pizzerias in london yes but i did a little bit too late i ended up doing it like on sunday or something yeah yeah it just was and it seems for whatever reason from this neighborhood it seems like all of those pizzerias are a good you know 40 minutes to an hour away yes whatever is alley cat and there's uh alley cats is good yeah it's weird like we're getting this new basically since covid this new kind of influx i think a lot of uh these guys are like vincenzo's uh gracie's pizza like all really really good pizzas i think i think they went to new york you know pre or even just the states um you know 2018 2019 covid happens you haven't got a job fuck it let's cook some pizza and then we had this whole wave of pizza come along and there's this london pizza style which is kind of a hybrid of different um you know sort of the traditional sort of new york slice and there's neapolitan like all fuse into one um but i'm not sure i necessarily agree with that but it is it's really interesting how it's because mate they're opening all the time now and it feels like because i remember i went to new york i was like this pizza here is just insane yeah what we've got this in the uk is awful i mean the pizzas when i moved back to new york in 2012 the pizza was terrible really just terrible interesting fallen off um and it was sort of like wow the new york's just doesn't have good pizza anymore yeah but very shortly after that all of a sudden the pizza scene kind of exploded and And all of a sudden, like, people started.

44:24And, I mean, I owned a really successful pizzeria. Oh, wow. I didn't realize that. Yeah, yeah. What was that called? It was called Corner Slice. Corner Slice. My partner. I mean, I don't take credit for the pizza because I didn't do anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He did all the cooking. And they've since moved to Jersey. But he made a grandma pie. That we specialized in grandma pies. Oh, wow. It was really good. His was like a 48-hour dough. You know, really good. If you ask what's the real difference between a good slice and a bad slice in New York, it's the quality of the flour and the cheese and the tomatoes.

44:57So the good places are using, a lot of them are using Bianco tomatoes from Chris Bianco, who's famous for the pizzeria in Phoenix.

45:11Or they're using San Marzano. They're using, and they're all on the more expensive side. They're all using really good cheese and using really good flour. When you go to a dollar slice paper, people say, yeah, a dollar slice is just as good. It's like, no, it's just, my kids eat in the neighborhood. And I'm like, I just, the dough stinks. It smells like cheap, nasty flour. The cheese is kind of gooey and weird and nasty. The tomato is full of sugar and it's just not good. And so I'd rather just never eat pizza again than eat that. What was so special about the, you know, You said the grandma pie.

45:48Was that thin crust, thick crust? The grandma pie is a pie that you stretch out on a half sheet tray and you par bake. Okay, yeah. And then when you get an order, you dress it and finish it in the oven. Okay. And there are slices. It's something your grandma used to make. It was simple. She was a simple pie, but they're really, really delicious. Wow. Yeah. I need to try that. Yeah. And then what's the ramen scene now? So you came over, you opened your shop. How's that evolved over the last 10, 15 years? Is it now more and more places are opening, more competition? Are the boats rising with the tide?

46:32We're in New York. In New York, yeah. So I feel like ramen's, again, we're probably four or five years behind you. Right. With most food things, to be honest. And now you guys are opening here, what's going to happen to the UK? is I think looking at New York's a kind of a good signal to the future? Well, I mean, more than anything, I think, look, I mean, I am, as far as I'm concerned, I'm a Japanese ramen guy. I mean, I started there. I became successful feeding Japanese people who stamped approval on my ramen and said it was good. I used, you know, that was my, that's what I had to do was make food for a Japanese customer.

47:11So I learned how to make food there using their ingredients. And so I've continued to use those ingredients I used when I lived in Japan. Yeah. And I think that that's happening more and more. I think the whole world is happening, right? I mean, the more people travel, the more people eat, you know, delicious food from different parts of the world. And then they come home and they want to make it. I mean, I don't really believe in the whole appropriation thing. I just think it's, I mean, I guess if you steal something. I mean, I just think the whole, I mean, cooking is just fucking cooking. I just don't, I just don't really, I just don't really understand it.

47:42I don't know. at the end of the day, you make food. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've always said to people, you know, if you go, if you, if you steal my recipe and then open a shop across the street, you call it Ivan Ramey, but spell it different. And you have a guy who looks just like me standing up front. Maybe that's, that's fucked up. But, but barring that, I don't know. I mean, so what? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not. I mean, you go, you taste good food. And to me, the beauty of cooking is sharing and learning and, you know, and making things that you like. I mean, when I sold my shop to my manager and he said, can I keep the name Ivan Ramen?

48:18And I said, no, I'm sorry. I really, I don't want you to run the shop with my name. I want to expand my business. And he said, well, can I keep you cooking your food? And I said, yes, of course you can. I said, but I recommend against it. I said, if you cook my recipes, they're just going to call you a poser and no one's going to take you seriously. And even if you make my ramen perfectly, no one's going to like it because they're all going to say, that's Ivan's ramen. I said, make your own food, keep the noodle recipe or tweak some things but make it yours with your name, with your shop and then people will really respect you and they'll come.

48:54And he did. Yeah, that's interesting. And they do and they come and they do, you know, he does a delicious bowl of ramen and people respect him. And so it's like, I mean, at the end of the day, I don't know. I don't really believe in stealing from people because some operators really suck and we all know that somebody has like a great restaurant and you love it there and then one day you go and it's closed and you're like oh it's such a drag but it closed because probably they're not that good at business i mean it's possible that the landlord one day said you know the rents double or it's possible that you know but other than that maybe their plan didn't take into account that the cost of their main item might double yeah or or whatever you know there's for a lot of reasons.

49:38To me, the people that take a dish and will say, well, you know, that guy invented it. It's like, yeah, but this guy knows how to run a business and now he's got 50 of them and he knows what he's doing. So why, you know, good on him for knowing what he's doing. And he did a great job. And if you can't, just because you have a great idea or just because even McDonald's, right? They'll say Ray Kroc screwed them out of their business. He may have, he didn't sound like the most group it was guy, but he knew how to scale. And he figured out scaling. those guys knew how to make a lot of burgers at once but they didn't know how to scale yes so making a lot of burgers at once is really cool but if you don't know how to scale you can't get angry that they didn't scale and they didn't never thought he took the idea but they weren't like getting ready to scale and then he like fucked them over and burned down the building now yeah yeah yeah he just took the idea bought it off of them for a low price and then he scaled it and so to me i mean that's just business there's um there's a great book by will godara unreasonable for hospitality um he's coming on on the show actually in um in feb and he talks about the barbell strategy of restaurant smarts smarts and business smarts and he says like you could have you know to your point i think you've got this one great idea and dish but you can't link that to business then you fucked yes no and i and i've and i've asked people have asked me to advise them and help them and i've sat down with people and they've said you know i'm and it's like oh i'm I'm gonna make this dish and I don't care, you know, the cost of bones for the soup, it's like triple what it should, but I don't care because it's gonna be delicious and I was like, I'm gonna be like, you're an idiot.

51:06Yeah, yeah, yeah. They get very insulted and they're like, well, why would you say that to me? And I say, because it doesn't fucking matter. If you can't make money, you're a dope. Make money and then give it all away to orphans. Give it away to Oxfam, give it away to Greenpeace. Whatever you want with the money, give it away. Don't, you know, keep it under your mattress. It doesn't matter, but make money. Because if the business is not successful, I don't care what the business is. If it doesn't make money, it's a failure. That's just the end of the day, because that's what business is. Business makes money.

51:34Yeah, well, that's one of Marco White's things. Yeah. Your job is to make money. That's the job is to make money. The job is to make money and stay alive. Yes. One of our sponsors, they've just gone into business with him, or he's just sort of funded them. The whole point is you need to do all this shit and make it all putty-fluty. If you don't make money, you don't have a restaurant, then you found it. I mean, any idiot can take the best steak and, you know, and charge not enough money for it. And making delicious food is the fucking easy part of restaurants. What have you learned about scaling, keeping quality and making money?

52:10That kind of, that's those three legs to the stool. What have been some of the learnings and challenges on that journey? Well, especially with what I'm doing, which is food from Japan, which is not represented here anywhere near as well as New York. So it's been much more challenging to get good quality product and get what we're happy with and sourcing ingredients. And then it's on me to set up a structure that the person I ask to carry out the business can follow and that it makes sense for them and that they're able to do it. I mean, you can't, you know, there's plenty of franchises that have failed because whatever went wrong, but it's on the franchisor to set up a system that's easy to work with and and be accessible so if there's a problem you can hop on a plane or in a car or whatever and come over and help and always being available and supporting and making sure that you know the people you can't just say you know do a good job you have to give them the resources to do a good job and you have to inspire them to understand you know what into what it is about that business that people like and so that they can repeat it and replicate it and keep it going.

53:18And, and, you know, it's, that's the, that's the, that's the pie. That's on me. Yes. You know, that's on me is, you know, having good enough documentation that, you know, the person that's buying your business is, is contractually obligated to do what you tell them to do. Yeah. I love that thing you said earlier about writing that sort of that booklet of mistakes. Yeah. It's super interesting. So interesting. And which helps so many people listen to this in terms of, so in the states um my research gave me how many how many sites have you got in this in in the states now just two just two yep have you got one in do you say you've got one in vegas was that yes one in vegas and one in new york okay cool what how how have you what's the difference between business between those two places well vegas is a is a is a food hall in in the venetian resort yeah um so it's not you know it's it's a little tiny thing for such a giant you know it's a huge huge company that makes billions of dollars and has you know this tiny little food court um it's an excitement it's i think it's one of the better casinos on this trip so it's a really good one to be a part of and uh um they do a nice job our neighbors in our food hall are really nice and i like them and and uh you know like i said we have scars pizza we have howlin ray's uh yeah uh fried chicken we have turkey and the wolf from new orleans uh we have a la antica you know the from originally Florence, but it's become a pretty big company.

54:41And Beach Taqueria from LA. And everybody's, you know, they're all good guys. And, you know, it's a fun group. And it's a unique thing for, you know, otherwise we have, you know, some giant restaurants as well. Yes. They have Thomas Keller restaurant. They have a new Coates Steakhouse. They have all kinds of big, giant, glamorous restaurants as well. Interesting. And what are the unique challenges of getting with the type of customer in those places, say, versus New York versus Vegas? Well, I mean, we're, I mean, Ivan Ramen is a destination restaurant, so you mostly want to go there. We don't have great foot traffic.

55:20So if you want to eat Ivan Ramen, you say, let's go eat Ivan Ramen, and you go to my neighborhood. The Venetian is, you know, right in the middle of a giant casino, and people walk past it and wander in, or are they going to a show and they don't want to sit down for a complex meal so they come over to our Via Via food hall and choose a slice of pizza or a bowl of ramen or a fried chicken sandwich or whatever. Yeah, interesting. In terms of the genesis of ramen, again, I watched videos online of what we did with Dave Chang I thought was fascinating. Is it quite a new food, if I'm right in saying?

56:01What's the genesis? Well, it's new-ish. Newish, yeah. So tell me the genesis of it. Chinese noodles in Japan are clean and pristine and Japanese ramen is dirty and muddled. Dirty and muddled? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We add all kinds of shit to it. If you have a bowl of Chinese noodles, it's usually a clear, pristine broth. Yes. You know, the Chinese don't tend to cook meat and destroy it and throw it away. In ramen, you put all the stuff in, you cook it until it's got nothing left in it and you throw it in the garbage. whereas in china you'll cook some i mean i'm generalizing there's many kinds of course yeah yeah cook cook some chicken and right when it's perfectly cooked you pull it out and you use that to for something else or garnish and then yeah and then you have a very light flavored broth yeah and whereas in you know ramen is cooked much harder and longer and uh it's it's and it's got a lot of when did it when did it start there was that was it the what year did that begin like do you know the actual story of it starting i don't remember when it started i know that it really picked up steam in the 50s um okay and then i think in the two early 2000s when i started uh it really became a new animal entirely wow i didn't realize it was that recent it's pretty it's a very recent i mean there's been ramen for many years before that but it was much but it wasn't as prominent yeah the um you know what similar to this your wall in i remember at vividly sat at the bar looking at that wall of kind of, I don't know, what is the, like, just all these, all these, it's almost the montage of all these beautiful things from Japan.

57:37What are some of those things on there that really mean stuff to you? Is that you putting your soul in the restaurant? Like, what was... That was everybody, that was, yes, that was images of famous, favorite comic book characters and rock and roll band logos and old Japanese postcards and advertisements and old Japanese comic book figures and all kinds of crazy personal stuff. It was fun. It was very organic. And the guy who made it was really talented. So he assembled everything in a really coherent, fun way. So is the Japanese cartoon, is that an anime? Is that the same thing? Yeah, what's the role of that in their culture?

58:21Because I don't really know anything about it. It's always been really important. I mean, it's been very popular, having anime. I don't be really honest with you. I don't know. I don't think I've ever watched an anime. Oh, so sorry. That's a TV thing, anime. Well, anime or movies. Also manga, the comic books. My kids, we have many hundreds of Japanese comic books. Yeah, yeah. And kids read them in Japanese. Wow. And they watch a lot of the Japanese cartoons and anime, I guess. Anime is another word for cartoon. maybe it suggests something a little more sophisticated.

59:00But like I said, the only comics I read were 1960s psychedelic comic books from Robert Crumb and stuff like that when I was a kid. And I actually liked, I read Marvel and Superman when I was a boy as well. But I have actually never been bitten by the Japanese manga bug. So I don't, I've read nothing. the um so one thing i you stride me as a person this uh you know i'm a fuck you kind of guy with with this kind of no fear attitude of like i'm doing what the fuck i want i feel like in business there's always this feeling of ambiguity that's what i've picked up you never know what the fuck's going to happen what's happening with prices whether the landlord's going to screw you over how have you when have you been really fearful in business first question and secondly how have you dealt with that?

59:50Because I think that will help a lot of people because in hospitality right now in the UK, it's this kind of malaise of fear is sort of spreading. Like I said, I mean, personally, I think you start with a good plan before you ever sign a lease. Sure. I really do. And I say that only because I meet just endless people who do that. They just, they get this idea that they want something and they just go in full steam ahead without a plan and without menus, without, you know, just sort of, yeah. And I kind of feel like if you don't have a really, you know, any business consultant will tell you that you need a business plan.

1:00:26Yeah. The business plan may go everything, finances and menus and concepts and artwork. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The more flushed out you can get your concept and how you're going to do it laid out, the better chance you'll have of success. Because you can follow that blueprint and keep coming back to it and try to stay close to it. I mean, unfortunately, the world prefers big business over small business. So most governments don't support us. They don't care about us. I think they would care when we all close. if every restaurant if every independent restaurant closed and every every cute hat shop and every watch shop and every stationary store and when they're all gone and I unfortunately I think there may be a day when they are really you know then the then the big government will say oh yeah yeah yeah oh yeah but we have we have all these gigantic companies and we have you know all the huge conglomerates and but it's you know the conglomerates don't have any character and I'm not even saying that I don't support that I think I think there's room for both you need one well it's also like if you've ever read Infinite Jess where he's where the years are sponsored by Burger King and shit you know set in that sort of dystopian future and I feel like there's so many great restaurants in London that are just getting eviscerated with all this with all this tax or just everything like that there's a whole well it's just you know in my country we're giving more and more money to big big businesses is that what's going on in the States and less and less money to small businesses and you know I think it should be opposite because I think that you know you know when you go to london or you go to new york the places you remember are the one-off really cool little spot down down the street and you know the guy sells all kinds of pipes from all over the uk or something yeah yeah yeah and it's really fun and you buy a pipe and you know and or whatever it is you know and yeah it's those are the places that you love or the the guy who comes up with some more like a ramen shop where the guy went to japan and came up with a an idea and they really love it and they come up they come up with their own spin and when you eat there you're like oh that was so interesting you know it's fun to eat at and you know not all those shops even need to leave a huge impression on you they could just be like that was really enjoyable and fun and you know it's there's little touches that actually add up it's what makes it's what makes cities wonderful it's what makes you remember you know you still need the ritz carlton you still need you know all that stuff yeah it's also really great and yeah you know uh but i i think i think it's unfortunate that at least in my country i don't think we value small business there's a lot of lip service to it but i don't i think they're liars really believe it i don't think there's what so what how what is when you say the big money is being siphoned off to the corporates well that's the whole new model of my government really of tax breaks to the very very wealthy and to the to giant corporations yeah so and is that how's that impacted your your two shops I don't know that it's impacted us quite yet, but I just think that it's, you know, it gets harder and harder and you know, you'll, it's hard to get help.

1:03:27You know, you know, you get a really high gas bill that you don't think is fair and there's no one to complain to. And there's no one to get help from, you know, or if the city makes a new ordinance that doesn't really make sense or, or the health department, the restaurant health department's not great. I think it's important. I would never say don't have a health department. That's crazy. but they penalize quickly rather than teaching and I'd rather them penalize you by teaching I'd rather pay a yearly fee and then when the health department comes it's a happy occasion hey man how can we help you that's really dangerous let's clean that up if you do that more than three times we're going to have to shut you down hey you know you pay your$3 ,000 a year $5 ,000 whatever you pay when the health department comes they're nice and they're supportive teach you because sometimes you don't always know or you make a mistake.

1:04:21I mean, most of us who either went to culinary school or trained in good restaurants, you would never think of cutting vegetables on a cutting board where there was raw meat before. You know better. You know to wash your hands always and frequently. I hate gloves because I think they encourage unsanitary behavior. I think you're much better off just always washing your hands. I wash my hands a hundred times a day. I have children and I have restaurants. I wash my hands all the time. You're crazy not to wash your hands, you know, and anytime you touch something, you know, if you pick up a box, you should go wash your hands because God knows where the box has been.

1:04:58Yeah. You need to know that, you know, and I think that I would love to see like the health department just work with people rather than showing up on Friday night at 8 PM during a busy service and everybody's scared and, you know, they're running around and it's, and it's very unpleasant yeah i think some of those things some of those types of you know the the right wing talks a lot about regulation and getting rid of it you know let's let's shift some regulation so that it makes it makes more sense the back back just quickly back to the plan thing um so you said you know you sort of sit with a lot of uh founders or people who've got a great idea and it's kind of like you know finger in the sky like okay i've got this idea we're going going to get going almost the plan is the robustness of the the sort of fragile future um what do you think when you look at speak to all these people what is missing what the one two three things missing from the plan because i think you've clearly know how to write a great great plan i think this will help a lot of people um well i think it's everything how are you going to pay you're going to pay your bills you know uh you know sometimes you fall in love with a dish that's not practical?

1:06:08It's hard to get the ingredients or the ingredients are too expensive or the amount of time it takes to make it. Can your staff make it? Do you have enough time to make it? How long does the guest have to wait? Thinking about what your concept is and if it's practical. Are there tons of those concepts and are you just going to be another one like everybody else and what's going to make you different or should you choose something different that people will be interested? I mean, Ivan Raman, to be really honest with you, was a white guy in Japan making ramen. That's my concept. I just happened to have opened in New York and I've continued over the years.

1:06:44And I think I'm a good cook and I think I'm a good leader because I think we've managed to be consistent and delicious. By virtue of the fact that I opened Japan, I think I was forced to try really hard to make it taste that terrible word authentic. But let's just say something, I don't like the word authentic, but I might say tastes like something a Japanese person would recognize as ramen. yep so uh but i told a story the other day you know that i mean i when i first before i opened Ivan Ramen i went to two popular ramen shops one served a Mazemen style which is a brothless style dish and it was it was a it was a anchovy pizza flavored noodle dish an anchovy pizza wow yeah tasted just like an anchovy pizza like seriously and it was really it was delicious yeah yeah They were really, really good.

1:07:32And then I went to a Thai noodle. It was a green curry ramen. Thai green curry ramen. Yeah. That was also really good. Yeah. And when I ate them, I thought, all right, you know what? I guess I think I can be myself and make ramen. Because they tasted both of those dishes, by the way, they tasted like ramen. They slurped. They had certain fish notes to them. They had a good amount of fat in them. They hit all the points that would make it ramen. It wasn't like they were calling it ramen, but it wasn't ramen. It was ramen. All the things that would make a bowl of ramen, they were ramen. Those things, it's the fat.

1:08:13Yeah, the fat, the noodles, the toppings, the slurpability, all that stuff. But they were a little off-center in their flavor components. And I was super impressed. And it emboldened me to think, wow, okay. I mean, I guess maybe this American guy, if it's delicious and people like my shop, they'll give me a chance. And so I was much less scared after that because I thought I could probably survive. And I've always, when I lived in Japan, I was always cautious. I never, you know, I didn't do a peanut butter and jelly ramen. I didn't, you know, I didn't do, I didn't do, trust me, cooks think of wacky things sometimes.

1:08:53Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was always sort of, you know, a little bit cautious about what I tried. but at the same time I realized that I could be probably be creative to a certain extent and I have right I put I put roasted tomatoes in there I put uh I put whole grain flowers in my noodles I you know I did I did a lot of things that originally people said was stupid yes and I did it anyway and people liked it and it became sort of iconic and now you know everybody does it yeah yeah it's it's something that but you know uh I think that you know when you when you think about that you know how are you going to be successful that's some of those sort of being willing to push through aren't you guys doing when now you're launching in london isn't aren't you guys doing an easter end noodle dish have i read that oh sorry no uh no no we the only thing that's potentially a little bit london-esque is the salt beef bao sorry that was it yeah we found yeah um and it really was less about me like i generally generally speaking don't do not love the idea of cooking for anybody but myself so i don't i don't make things for you know oh how did you make the ramen when you moved to new york how did you change it so people would like it i didn't i didn't change anything for myself and i same thing for london but uh um we do a pastrami bun in new york and getting pastrami here was a pain and trying to figure out how to make pastrami here was a bit of a pain and i said you know what why don't we try a salt beef people really love it they recognize it they enjoy it um you go to the bagel shops um funny enough i well i actually walked i found it for the first time three days ago i'd never really i've been in the neighborhood a lot but i'd never walked past it oh wow yeah when i walked past it i just had lunch and i was full so i did not have it but um i had i had a salt beef sandwich on rye with mustard at harrod's cafe in the basement yes um slightly different and i was and i was a little skeptical because it was sort of a department store cafe yep um but we were really hungry and my wife was super cranky and i didn't find i had i had like literally 15 minutes to feed her before all hell was gonna yeah and and so i said let's just go yeah and i ordered this salt beef sandwich and i was a little sort of like yeah whatever i'm probably gonna suck and it was really good like really it was as good as any sandwich I've ever had in New York.

1:11:15Like, it was delicious. The bread was really... Well, this is in Harrods. Yeah. And the bread was like a really fresh, delicious, aromatic rye bread. It was lovely. It was really the perfect mustard. The meat was really tender and moist. And I just, I really, I tucked into that sandwich, and I really enjoyed it. And I was like, man, this is good. Like, really good. I could really enjoy it a lot. Yeah. And I'm a New Yorker, so, I mean, anytime I eat a good sandwich, I mean, I'm... we new yorkers if we're going to be snotty about something it's probably sandwiches and pizza yes um and um with good reason to a certain extent but it doesn't mean that you can't go somewhere else and have just as good or better and i have you know yeah um but i'm often disappointed in sandwiches outside of new york because i you know because i just don't you're one of the best sandwiches in new york for you do you think because where we were staying is that mr purple which is by cat's deli and then your other place so i don't know if you know i than the street was that's when i came yeah 2019 and i remember eating that thinking fuck me this is this is different the cats the sandwich is really really good yeah um all their sandwiches good you know right near there there's regina's which makes a really good uh um uh uh italian combo yeah italian combos are very good sandwiches uh in new york they're italian combos so what's kinds of capicola, meats, different sliced Italian meats, provolone on an Italian bread.

1:12:54There's a couple of different shops that are famous, but those are really, really good. A couple of pizzerias make really good sandwiches. The Mama's 2 makes it just an insane chicken parmesan with a parrata and pesto and tomato sauce. It's a little expensive, to be honest with you. But boy, I mean, I just crushed it. It was so, so good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's a lot of really good sandwich places in New York. S &P Lunch. S &P Lunch is great. Really? And that's not an overstuffed sandwich. So that's more, it's a hundred year old sandwich counter on Fifth Avenue and 23rd Street. And it was open forever and ever and ever.

1:13:41And then it looked like it was going to close. And these guys who have salmon shops all around, they took it over, but they maintained everything about it, even with the holes in the vinyl seat still. Oh, wow. So it's a smaller sandwich, but cheaper. Wait, so when you say smaller, what sort of thing is it? I mean, it's not overstuffed. I just mean it's not, you know, if you go to Katz's Deli, you can barely hold the sandwich. Sure, okay. At S &P Lunch, they're just a, it's a nice size sandwich. It's not tiny, but it's not like this ridiculous thing the size of your head. And what would you go for there?

1:14:13What sort of, what fillings can you get there? Same sort of stuff? No, they do, well, they do a roast, they do a pastrami sandwich, they do a tuna melt, they do a, you know, just really simple old school sandwiches. but it's got tons of atmosphere and if you're in that neighborhood, it's a really fun place to sit and have that and have some French fries or a celery soda. You've never had one. Celery soda? Oh, it's the best thing in the world. It's a very New York thing. Yeah, it's celery. It's called Dr. Brown Celery Soda. So celery, yeah? But it's basically, it's sort of like a celery tonic. Wow.

1:14:48It's fucking the best soda ever. That sounds amazing. Very, very good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was my, I don't drink soda. I gave up soda many years ago. Yeah. but that's if I go to a deli I generally have a celery there's a drink I don't know when you go well you go back to Mordone but next time you're over there's a drinks brand called Bativo over here which is it sounds it sounds repugnant but it's fucking amazing you have an orange it's like it's alcohol free but it's almost like apple cider vinegar but a little bit of it and it just adds to any soda and you're just like wow it's this whole sort of magical flavour it goes well with everything it's probably quite similar what do you think of what surprised you about the London food scene when you've gone to the Harrods food hall.

1:15:29Like, we had a chef... This wasn't even the food hall. The food hall was too chaotic. Was it in the basement? This was in the basement. There's this kind of reputation with the food. You know, the food in Harrods is being just overpriced. So it's really interesting when you said that Sarni was top 10. It was really good. And I don't remember what it was. I don't think it was crazy expensive. but the food hall definitely looks like fun because counters are always fun to sit at. The last time we were there, it was just bonkers, and I didn't even bother trying to sit at any. You could barely walk through.

1:16:06Yes. It was so crowded. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Harrods is a little, it's also a Knightsbridge, which I don't know what the hell you do in Knightsbridge. There's not a lot going on for me, and maybe I just don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of a weird. It's a little bit far. Yeah. but I mean I love department stores so yeah I like shopping yeah yeah yeah where have you been staying when you've been in London right five minutes from here yeah you've got some good places a few more things we went to Scotty's snack bar for lunch yeah yeah you were saying what did you have you had the I just had the scallop sandwich we split it my wife and we had a cuppa and we had a cuppa a cuppa yeah what did you do you like the cuppa oh I do love you know what it's funny i've had some really expensive black tea and i have to tell you pg tips taste the best every single fucking time and every brit i know says i talk about the fancy tea they go you know pg tips it's the best so and it is yeah yeah yeah it's got that flavor you know i mean i also drink a lot of chinese tea and i like i like chinese and japanese tea as well but it's a different thing yeah but i find british british black tea to be very comforting but it's like the other day we We bought some Taylor's, what did my wife bring, English Breakfast.

1:17:18I think it just went right in the garbage. It was in one cup. It just had no flavor. It said rich and malty on the outside. I think the more snooty the tea here, the worse it is. It's like, just don't fuck with something that's working. Yeah, no, the PG Tips is just, you know, it has this really deep flavor that's just so good. And the Taylor of Hargis, their regular black tea is pretty good, too. Yeah. But I would say if I had to choose, I would probably choose the PG Tip. Yeah. Have you been to Black Bear Burger up there? No. He's one of my mates who owns a restaurant. So I think it's one of the best, being voted one of the best burgers in London.

1:17:56Kind of different. It does like a miso burger. Right. But his whole thing, again, point of difference is, we'll get you in with a burger, but we'll keep you with the sides. So their sides are kind of, they do, what's it like? Burger. it sounds disgusting but it's fucking delicious like a burger spring roll when it's cut in half with the cheese and like the beef brisket and then you have these different sauces right that's insane um around here so there's just so much good food in this little um area i want to just wrap up on a few things and like sort of personal questions so i yeah i love reading and we sort of briefly touched upon it at the beginning mate about sort of japanese literature what are some of those what's some of your favorite books that really sort of i think i believe really believe some books can just completely open up the way you view the world um what are some of those for you uh what do i just i've read a couple of japanese authors lately i just read the the housekeeper and the professor about a and an old professor who uh only has a memory for like 59 minutes or something and oh wow and and and the housekeeper who forms a friendship with him um that was a really really nice book i just read murakami's newest book which i really liked um which i can't for the life of me remember yeah yeah yeah but it was also uh uh really really good have you read his um what i think about when i think about running you know what i yeah yeah that's i think that's really interesting uh maybe we can explore this is like that book's as much as sort of a meditation about like it's not even about running i don't i thought it was going to be a running it's not about that at all.

1:19:33If you were to do like a book on like what I think about when I think about ramen, and this could be tenuous and nebulous, so fuck it off if you want to, what does that teach you? Well, I mean, I think anybody who works at something, whether you're a lawyer or a doctor or a cook or whatever, right, you go into your world where you take all your knowledge and try to create something good. And, you know, when I opened Ivan Ramen all the way back in the beginning, I remember sort of having all my mentors kind of around my shoulder, you know, commenting and reminding me and, you know, how to work hard, work clean, you know.

1:20:08Yes. You know, you know, don't cut corners, you know. And so to me, it'd be like, you know, some people would say, you know, I had one guy say to me in an interview, you know, what happened to you? You know, you worked at Lutece and now you're making noodles. How sad. Sorry, you worked at the where? Sorry. He said, you know, you worked at Lutece and now you're making ramen. That's so sad. Like, what happened to you? I mean, obviously he was a dick Yeah, yeah, yeah And I told him so But what I did tell him was, you know There are a lot of really fancy French russians They're just garbage And everybody, they get three Michelin stars They're supposed to be amazing And I won't name them But I mean, I've been to ones in Paris That everybody falls over to them And then you go And the service is rude And they push really expensive dishes on you And the food's fine But it's not dreamy food And it's just sort of like, you know my point is that and that you don't you just don't want to eat you know there's some days you'd say i'm going to take you to you know i'll take you to lane ducasse man i'm paying and i might just say you know i mean i'm so sorry i just cannot eat that right now i don't i'm just gonna have yogurt and then some of this really good granola i bought and i probably enjoy it just as much as i would have enjoyed the fancy restaurant nothing when lane ducasse he's a genius and i i like his restaurants but i mean you don't want to eat at lane ducasse restaurant every single day the same way he probably doesn't want to eat at his restaurant every day sometimes he just wants to have a you know something simple and so there's room for everybody yeah um and uh you know it's it's great to have uh i mean what did my dad used to say that's what makes horse races you know we'll say so that's what makes horse races yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah interesting have you you've touched upon mentors a few times in our conversation ivan who has been some of your big mentors and And what have they taught you?

1:21:51When I say a mentor, I don't know if they're really a mentor. I mean, I have my pal, Bill Pete, who's the chef at Tavern on the Green in New York. Yep. But he was the sous chef at Lutece for 15 years. And, you know, he was always sort of showing me and teaching me and helping me. And he was always kind and never yelled. And, you know, he was someone. And Bobby Flay, I wouldn't call him a mentor, only that, you know, I was just a young, young cook. And he was the owner of a big, fancy restaurant. but he was also a nice guy and gave me a bunch of advice here and there and yeah and uh you know uh so I've never really had you know one person that you know I came up under or anything okay with you yeah but you know and like I said I never worked in a ramen shop so I can't say gee I learned how to make noodles from so and so because I you know there was no one to work with so yeah you know I don't think I've worked in a restaurant besides mine for gosh 25 years yeah yeah yeah and what what would be your leadership sort of principles i know it was all like how do you get a team of votes evolved getting after every single day so not an easy thing you have to show people that it's that it's worthwhile you have to show them the food's really good you know i talked to the new staff here i said you know you're not just working at a ramen shop you're working at a ramen shop that has we're very lucky to have a following and people know who we are and if you told people where you work they'd be excited you know some people would know about it you know okay so it's I think it's something exciting to know that you're representing something.

1:23:19And then not only that, though, also the idea that, you know, people really look forward to going out to dinner. And even though it's just a bowl of ramen, and I know it's not cheap, cheap, but it's, you know, it's on the inexpensive side. And I think, you know, it's important for people to understand and for workers to understand how excited people are to go out and how disappointing it is if they don't have a good time. and that we're taking their money from them and that we need to be honest and hardworking and get people behind. And I think a lot of people, when you talk to them that way, they realize it because everybody feels the same way.

1:23:51You know, you want to... Yes, I've never heard it. I sit opposite loads of successful people, right, in this game, but your perspective is really unique, Ivan, in that it's almost this empathy of... It's not about what we're trying to do. It's about what the customer's going to go and tell their friends, how they're spending their hard-earned cash here. Yeah. That's so interesting It's almost like this empathetic Showing, not telling Through empathy kind of thing Well, it's just if you take money from someone And you don't give them a good experience You're stealing from them I mean, if you fuck up, it's fine We make mistakes Sometimes the food is burnt Sometimes you spill something Sometimes you have a waiter And you don't realize they're not that nice in time You can get rid of them eventually But I think the notion That if you willingly give someone a bad experience and you take their money, you're ripping them off.

1:24:41And I don't like that. And I do this because I love this experience. I love going to restaurants and I love interacting with servers and looking at the decor and how did they design their space and what's the bathroom like and what dishes did they use and what's their beverage program and why did they choose that beer or whatever. All those things are interesting to me and fun. And I think it's that way for all people to different degrees. I mean, I'm a restaurateur and I'm a food geek, so I probably dial deeper than most people. But, you know, I think if you drink out of a water glass that feels really good in your hand, you might notice and say, well, what a thoughtful choice.

1:25:21How nice. I love that glass. Or, you know, I love the way they presented the food. I really understand what it is. And like I said, and then, you know, conceptually, some concepts are bad and, you know, you don't know where you are. You know, you're in a restaurant that serves, you know, food from, you know, the coldest part of Russia, but they have surfboards on the wall because the owner loves surfboards. And so the guests are just all super confused. But you know you've been to a place like that where you're like, I do not understand it. And decor doesn't match the food. And I don't know why they did it.

1:25:57And maybe you're a food guy, so you can actually realize why you're uncomfortable. But most people don't even know why they're uncomfortable. They just don't want to come back because they feel bad in the restaurant. Have you managed to go to the Devonshire while you're here? A couple trips ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Osh has been on the pod, the owner of that, a couple of times, three times actually. And his whole principle is removing silent irritants. And we annihilate silent irritants. So a silent irritant could be as you walk in, you're queuing, and you just sat there and you feel like a fucking idiot.

1:26:30if someone just goes i see you that's the silent irritant removed it could be the fork you know like you said um rory his friend gave an example you go to the best restaurant in the world if the forks like up like that it's a silent irritant what would you say some of the silent irritants not necessarily just in ramen but in restaurants that you think happen too frequently um yeah well certainly that i mean i i went to a very famous restaurant in london last year and there were no less than nine people working at the counter making food servers bristling back and forth and not one person made eye contact not one person welcomed us not one person said just a moment please they said dick all while I stood there feeling like a complete idiot until 12 minutes went by and then someone said I think that's Ivan Orkin and then all of a sudden they would whisked us to a table and we had a glass of wine and we did oysters and we were like what an asshole I mean it's bad and I'd rather you just kicked us out I mean now you recognize me now you're nice after I know you're a jerk you know that's the word that's a loud irritant and I think that happens in restaurants a lot where you know it's super awkward or they just kind of let you know that they don't really don't really want you there they just want you to come in and shut up and it's sort of like I don't that's not why I go to a restaurant you go to a restaurant to have someone make you smile make you smile and on the other side of that like silent pleasantries i feel like when he's coming on next week sat baines um it's complete opposite end two-star michelin up in nottingham went there last week as sort of a research trip genius silent pleasantry so i'm like i want to go for a cigarette and so he goes oh we're gonna go to they've got the cigar hat at the back and he just goes oh looks like you the guy's taking me out goes looks like you like um 90s hip-hop which i happened to just do like 90s sort of hip-hop and as soon as he said 90s hip-hop this i think was either alexa behind the thing started playing i was like that is that is fucking sick and it's just this and it just creates this sort of magic and this feeling of i was in that sort of gastronomic nanny it was absolutely wild like what what what are some of those sorry silent pleasantries you try and implement in your restaurants and it can be something small it doesn't have to be big Yeah, like I said, it's acknowledging people when they're there.

1:28:49It's creating space for them to order. And, you know, some people don't really know much about ramen. I mean, ramen's still a hard thing to sell because even though you might eat ramen once a week and you love it and you've been to Japan, there are still more people than not that have never eaten it. Or maybe they've had a hard brick of instant ramen, but they've never actually been to a ramen shop. And so, you know, we deal with a lot of education at Ivan Ramen and trying to help people to really know about it. And, you know, and you want people to feel good about it and excited and not make them feel like they don't know something and just help them know more and guiding people.

1:29:31You know, we don't upsell at Ivan Ramen. We don't, you know, we want people to have what they want to have and have them eat as much or as little. You know, I don't love when I'm told how many dishes I need to fill me up. I mean, I just, I don't know. That's annoying. I mean, I'm a grown man. What are your thoughts on small plates as a concept? I mean, whatever. I mean, I'm not sure. I mean, sharing has become such a big thing, and I don't mind sharing. And good restaurants often have so many fun-looking things. You know, you end up wanting to try a lot of things. So I'm not, I mean, I don't really have any of those, like, I only feel this way or that way.

1:30:08I mean, I get it. sometimes you miss the days when you would just get a big charger in front of you and eat your piece of lamb and enjoy it and you don't have to share it a big charger such a wonderful way of saying it yeah a big charger yeah and but but uh i think it's more like unless the plates are just little you know one tablespoon bites i don't need to be told how many plates i need to order i can just and then i'm and i'm super comfortable ordering more unless the kitchen says you know you only have an hour and 10 minutes here we really encourage you to order everything at once because otherwise you probably won't be able to and some restaurants are so busy and so tight that's a rule and that's fine you know you can order once and that's it and i've been to a lot of restaurants that say you can only order once because their turn times are tight sure that's fine and then i'll just i'll just and then you know what but i'm once again big boy if i'm still hungry there's still another 900 restaurants out the door and i can go eat something or i can get a yogurt at the local grocer yeah so i don't i'm never i don't i'm not fearful of being hungry yeah yeah not not in not in modern day london or new york or tokyo i mean it's just even in the middle of the night there's something to eat so it's it's or or guess what you could be hungry for five hours yeah you know humans used to be hungry for a week so oh yeah you know i think being hungry for a couple hours is also okay yeah so i i like ordering what i want and and then you know i mean i've been to two restaurants this week where i you know we ordered and something yeah where have you been since you've been in london at what place well been tost john's twice.

1:31:37Yes. Because that's my favorite. Yes. Been to Singberry. Been to Kiln. Yes. Did a big giant Kiln lunch yesterday. It was really fun. Went to Quality Wines. Went to Quality Chop House. The next one. Yeah, sick. And Scotty's for a half of a scallop chicken sandwich. It was just a sandwich your half-blind grandmother makes for you. but they were super nice and the sandwich was warm and fresh and the atmosphere was lovely and I really enjoyed it so where I live there's two cafes one further down the road about 50 metres apart 20 metres apart some of the best coffee I've ever had insane, the one next to the coffee is actually shit so it's accurate, it's bitter but the service is so warm I know everyone, she knows my name and it's just that and it just, I just, there's something about, it doesn't have to be the best, but it can just be those little things done well.

1:32:39The Regency Cafe is my favorite, but I can't. Regency Cafe? I love it. Yes. I've been there many times, but I've sort of, I've had to give up that. What's, okay, this is quite a controversial one, but like, so English breakfast, American breakfast. Oh, English breakfast every fucking time. Really? Oh yeah, man. English breakfast is just so badass. Really? It's genius, really. So, but as in like. I mean, baked beans? yeah it was so good black pudding I like any kind of any kind of blood pudding I love yes I'm a big blood pudding guy and you know Cumberland sausage I mean unfortunately a lot of the cafs they use frozen crap so you know a lot of times the Cumberland sausage isn't good but a fresh one is really really good yeah you know and hash brown so they're all the same triangle pieces of fucking you know yeah but but the Regency Cafe there's some once again the atmosphere in there and the coffee's really hot and fresh and uh i don't know it's it's a joyous place to go i mean i like it i like i said i've sort of given up that uh that that just uh heart attack food for now but uh yeah well i mean it's like it's cholesterol inducing but it's also joy and juicing what is the like the american diner how is that breakfast different um i mean for me that has any views For me, I mean, I grew up in Long Island where diners are popular.

1:34:02But for me, the real New York breakfast for me is a toasted bagel with cream cheese and smoked salmon and capers and chopped red onion. I mean, that's, you know, that's my real New York breakfast more than, you know, eggs and hash. I mean, probably my second would be a corned beef hash. Yes. which is also very, you know, corned beef and potatoes chopped up and fried until it's crispy, gooey on the inside, crispy on the outside with two fried, overeasy eggs on top. And that's also really good. Not a huge pancake guy, but I'll have one every once in a while. Yeah. And, but the concept, if you're eating eggs and meat, the English breakfast is really, it's stunning.

1:34:46And then mushrooms, the whole thing. It's just, I can do the whole, the whole giant. When you're hungover, when you're hungover, it's just, you go and get that. It's just, it's, yeah, it's a carby cuddle we did one at the Wolseley last trip which was awesome oh really? I like the Wolseley yeah yeah yeah I like the Wolseley because that's Jeremy King he's coming on the pod in a couple of weeks he's got a really good book out called Without Reservation it's like the it's almost like the James Bondification of Unreasonable Hospitality so it's very British but it's it's fucking good so a few more things I'm going over to New York in in well some early next year where do I eat what the sort of best restaurants or place not even best restaurants but place I need to go and eat at I don't know what are you what are you what are you talking so I would like so so a sort of premium michelin place right just razzle dazzle yeah do you know actually do you know Natura the company Natura yeah yeah so I'm Franco's a good friend of mine so that's what I'm going to see um so somewhere like that a cheap uh place where we do do like a sandwich like the bodega place sort of places um pizza right uh probably a dessert place right um and then just yeah they don't have to be fucking all like razzle dazzle places um well there's like led la vea door which is the new the from the guys who have frenchette and now uh and now uh cherry cherry lane so called in the Cherry Lane movie theater, old theater, just opened.

1:36:18That one's an old school French place that they revamped. Very popular, really fun. The Grill, which used to be the Four Seasons run by the guys who own Carbone. Oh, because that's as long as you hear, Carbone. I love that. Carbone just opened and then you, it's very hard to get into, but Taurisi is also a really good fan. Taurisi. Taurisi, another owner. There's Rich Taurisi, whose namesake, the original Taurisi that launched. yeah yeah yeah and Mario Carbone then they partnered with a a very good business partner and I mean now they're just crushing the whole world but um the uh Teresa's really fun if you can get into it um there's uh uh what else is new and new and fancy um and it's always fun to go to the Gramercy Tavern for a cocktail and some way yes have you met Danny Mayer have you ever I met Danny and I know and I but I know I know Michael Anthony really well he's the chef of and now Lex Yard which is the new Waldorf Astoria which is one of them too and then just quickly we talked about Pizza Series Little A Industry Mama's 2, Scars and there's another one and then there's S &P Lunch Regina's Sandwich there's DeFonte in Brooklyn

1:37:45and the pastrami queen if you're uptown if you want to try a pastrami sandwich uptown and Mama's too and Lane just both specialize if you look at their Instagram they're always doing some kind of wacky good sandwich shake yeah final question I'll ask this to all guests what's one truth you believe that most people would disagree with you on one truth? yes I don't know the customer's always right because Because they're paying. Yes. And you think everyone forgets that? Yeah, I mean, you know, these days people can be a little entitled. You have your smattering of Karens. Smatterings of Karens? That's so good.

1:38:26But I think in general, you're asking people to pay. And I think you need to make things really comfortable for people and try to make them happy. because it's, you know, the customer isn't always right if they say, nah, this is too salty. It's like, all right, we'll eat somewhere else. Super comfortable saying eat somewhere else. And, you know, that's fine. You don't want to, you don't like it. You don't have to pay for it, you know. Or you want something different? We'll give you something different. It's no problem. You know, you're not going to hurt my feelings, really. It's pretty hard to hurt my feelings.

1:38:59Mate, Ivan, thank you so much. Thank you. Absolute joy. So buzzing you're in London. And, yeah, we'll get this live. and I can't wait to get my mitts on your ramen, man. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you so much. Hey, guys. Thank you so, so much for watching this video. Hope you were loving the episode. I appreciate a really small yet significant favor, por favor. Please may you click the subscribe button. Get in the comments. Tell me what you think about the episode. Tell me what you think we did on the show. It may not seem much, but it really helps us grow and helps us get bigger guests.

1:39:29Thank you so much.